zerohedge.com — If there is one war that Greece could not afford to join, that is with the global computer hacking collective known as Anonymous. Yet as of minutes ago, that is precisley what happened, after Anonymous, as part of what it now calls Operation Greece, took down the Greek Ministry of Justice. While the pretext for the hacking appears to have been an arrest of the wrong people, is seems to have angered Anonymous to the point where they have left an extended message of demands on the Greek website, warning that unless the IMF withdraws from the country and the government resigns, all debts of Greek
Feb 22, 2012 View in Crawl 4
novenatorFeb 22, 2012
The IMF and World Bank are monsters. They lure nations into debt in order to force servitude of their citizens.
michaelpintoFeb 22, 2012
They may both be monsters — but Greece really cooked the books to get into the Euro, and nobody forced them to do that. Also it's up to the citizens of Greece if they want to leave or they want to do a deal, however it's wrong of a hacker group to try and force the issue in any direction. In fact by doing that they're just as bad as the IMF or the World Bank in terms of imposing conditions.
murxFeb 22, 2012
Those that cooked the books and those that benefit now are more or less the same.
kyzzyxxFeb 22, 2012
Yes. And Goldman Sachs 'helped' them do it.
novenatorFeb 22, 2012
I think that's one of the main points here from my perspective. Sure, the Greek government needed to realize the volatility of their economy in the wake of unforseen situations (like the worldwide economic slump created by unregulated, lawless markets in the US), but Goldman Sachs *deliberately* tried to get them to borrow more and hide it from EU regulatory agencies.
aadyssFeb 22, 2012
Can a country survive when the public sector accounts for about 40% of total economic output? Is that the fault of the IMF or of an entitled mindset?
aadyssFeb 22, 2012
Nov,
As time goes by, the more hysterical you become.
booglefloopFeb 22, 2012
Hysterical? He is right on the f**king money.
Goldman Sachs intentionally cooked books for Greece to get then in the EU. Think he is hysterical all you want, he is still right and you are wrong.
http://www.spiegel.de/international/europe/0,1518,676634,00.html
aadyssFeb 22, 2012
You sound a bit hysterical yourself. I find that a common affliction of people on the political left. There is always a great quantity of tears, gnashing of teeth and desperation with you people.
Listen, I'm not a fan of Goldman Sachs as is Washington D.C., Obama included, but the left has been trying to eliminate the notion of personal responsibility for years now and place blame elsewhere. They say, "Well, it wasn't his, her's or their fault. It was the fault of X, Y and/or Z."
Live with what the left has created. Embrace what the left has created. Love what the left has created. Be what the left has created! Be hysterical and love it!Comment is buried, click here to see the rest.
MissionaBlertzFeb 23, 2012
I'm always surprised when no one mentions the large amount of Greeks who refuse/d to pay taxes; as if this has nothing to do with their current situation...entitled mindset=100% on target
norman619Feb 22, 2012
Lure? sorry nations knowingly go into debt. No one is tricked into living beyond their means.
kaelyiestaFeb 22, 2012
Not entirely true. While there is often complicity between nations leaders and the world builders like the IMF, world bank and USAID, the message sold to even the rulers is not at all truthful, to say nothing of what citizens are told. Instead of ticking off the usual list of examples, let me cite one institution in detail:
It was Harry Dexter White and Maynard Keynes who were the creators and champions of the IMF. They both envisioned it as a soft means to a global fiat currency, which Keynes was particularly anxious to add to his legacy. The inflationary features are obvious, but more immediately dangerous was the political representation for guaranteeing insurance of debtors. Instead of credit rating and trustworthiness to repay being driven by price mechanisms, it was to be a function of political pull.
Much like the FDIC, most thought this a benevolent entity. However, its stated goals "1) promotion of exchange-rate stability, 2) cooperation of monetary policy, 3) expansion of international trade, and 4) to function as a lender of last resort. " were anything but what it did in reality. Politicians have been told that this sort of mechanism is an insurance. In guaranteeing safety, no matter the actions, politicians thought themselves free to do as they pleased. The distortion this brings to economies is itself detrimental, but as we have seen with the asian economic crisis in the 90s, with iceland and with greece, this isn't all that they do. After promoting the very instability and risk they pretend to guard against, they then set the terms for political salvation for the rulers.
The IMF also supports 3rd world nations, in exchange for political control of that nations development. Jamaica, and more recently Haiti were driven by evil rulers who wanted foreign aid and restructured the incentives for its citizens to push them into an export manufacturing economy. This was done by subsidizing foreign agriculture to push out farmers and crowd people into cities, who would not have done so under normal conditions. Remember the earth quake that destroyed much of Port Au Prince? The city had become crowded with shoddy housing that would not have been the case otherwise. These people were agrarian for a reason. The geographical factors(like earthquakes) and lack of capital to build resistant buildings were incentives to not do such things. Only marching orders from the IMF, enforced by the might the government under baby doc, and his 'elected' successors like manigat served to distort those behaviors to the disastrous results we all saw in the news.
Lets also consider Africa, which has pushed away investors interested in productivity, in favor of the cheap money of the IMF. This has turned poverty into a cash crop for the many governments in African countries, who have no interest in solving the problem, because then the aid will dry up.
Some sources for my claims:
http://www.ted.com/talks/andrew_mwenda_takes_a_new_look_at_africa.html
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ijf2hIwBgFc
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economic_hitman
norman619Feb 22, 2012
Oh please... You are actually trying to argue that the leaders of nations have no idea they are BORROWING money to pay for spending they can't pay for otherwise? Seriously? You trying to tell us YOU were fooled into taking out loans?Comment is buried, click here to see the rest.
aadyssFeb 22, 2012
Somewhat sounds like GM signing onto union contracts for pensions and benefits that in future they cannot possibly pay for thus bankruptcy.
johnnysoftwareFeb 23, 2012
If you read or listened to the news.... (*cough*)
... a dozen years back, you would recall how all kinds of right wing groups were telling the government that they had to spend the "excess" money building up in pension funds, and the management of huge blue-collar businesses saying they also had to spend the "excess" wealth in their pension funds.
In both cases, the excess wealth was all on paper and was based on stock prices that were inflated -- just like the stocks of the Great Depression.
The said and did this just months before the dotcom bubble burst and those inflated stock prices imploded, along with the value of the social security and pension funds.
Please, look at the reality of what actually happened, not bullcrap.
If the pension funds and social security funds were left intact instead of plundered, then both would have been less underfunded than they were/are.
Some high tech businesses evaporated but others got bought out by companies with stronger stocks, and some clearly remained around and appreciated quite a lot.
Apple, for one. If a pension fund had invested in Apple, had they held onto that stock, they would be rolling in dough today. If they had invested in Novell or Microsoft or Sun, then they would not. But it averages out. No doubt companies prior to this terrible decision were smart enough to diversify their investments.
Another problem that led to disastrous pension underfunding was the Enrons of the world who invested their employee's pension in their own toxic stock. Clearly, nobody retired on Enron except the executives.
johnnysoftwareFeb 23, 2012
Social Security fund wasn't filled with stocks but money collected through payroll withholding. However, when layoffs occurred due to dotcom bust, those payrolls hence withholdings dropped at the same time as stocks pretty much. Sorry I kind of muddled that in my description above. Hope nobody winced hard enough to sprain a muscle. :) **
aadyssFeb 23, 2012
listen to the news? Which take do I listen to?
kaelyiestaFeb 22, 2012
Norman, that is not what I am arguing. It is not the knowingly going into debt that is the point of contention, it is the lie that it is manageable that I take issue with. We entirely agree that nations leaders knowingly go into debt, but that isn't what you were refuting when countering what Novenator said. It is the repayment, the ability to recover, the harm outside of debt that these institutions hide from the rulers they are enticing that I was pointing out. Governments go into debt on their own, IMF et al. lie about the security of there being a safety net that makes fiscal responsibility obselete.
See, it is more complicated than simple borrowing. These mechanisms manipulate also many other economic forces. The way in which the IMF and others demand repayment is not the same as if a creditor came to you and offered a loan. They portray themselves as insurance. THAT is the danger, not the debt nations incur as a result of receiving their assistance, but the recklessness that promotes such debt.
Again, I do not deny rulers go into debt knowingly. I argue that they do not always sell their peoples futures away intentionally in such a drastic way as we see happen over and over again. They are being sold on a story that they are safe. To a central planner who thinks such things are possible, it can be a convincing story. Thus, they are indeed tricked into 'living above their means'.
How much of this is just what politicians use as justification, knowing full well it is bulls**t? I don't know. It isn't entirely though, and that is my point about it not being true that they aren't getting tricked. Politicians may be primarily interested in their messianic complex and self importance as so many people come begging for scraps and genuflecting in their divine presence, but I doubt many would intentionally destroy their own people. It gets them nothing. It is more likely that the soothing promises of these 'lenders of last resort' are convincing them to go on even more absurd spending sprees.
jefffurryFeb 22, 2012
"No one is tricked into living beyond their means."
Seriously? What do you think the current recession is all about? OF COURSE people are tricked into living beyond their means, with promises of easy credit, low payments, special *deals*, promised returns, promised appreciation in value, etc, etc, etc.
Yes, people should be smarter about stuff, but that's like saying people should be taller, or shorter, or speak more languages, or whatever. Not everybody is like you (or whomever), nor can they be, nor *should* they be.
publikjohn9Feb 22, 2012
What...? Sounds like you need to adjust your meds.
auditortuxFeb 22, 2012
Explain to me how they are luring nations into debt? Isn't that a conscious decision made when you spend more than you bring in?
mandrakelordFeb 22, 2012
Economic Warfare... Courtesy of the IMF FRB World Bank Rothschild New World Order scum :)
johnnysoftwareFeb 23, 2012
Politicians come and go, as does complicity/corruption/obfuscation, but countries do not come and go.
You seriously never heard of corruption?
You realize there is a different between a corrupt politician and what everyone 'wanted' or 'agreed' to -- right?
auditortuxFeb 23, 2012
Judging by the riots in Greece, the "corrupt" politicians borrowed exactly how their people wanted them too. Unfortunately no one realized that the bill would eventually come due.Comment is buried, click here to see the rest.
mandrakelordFeb 22, 2012
They are New World Order scum! This conspiracy goes sooo deep and im so glad to finally see it blowing wide open.
You'll see ;) the next few weeks/months will be interesting that's for sure....
publikjohn9Feb 22, 2012
I would laugh if anon could actually pull this off.
johnnysoftwareFeb 23, 2012
Could be a feint when what they will really try to do is wipe out all cat debts.
nitoriFeb 23, 2012
The IMF and World Bank are horribly corrupt organizations that are as vile as any terrorist group or crime syndicate.
dauntless1Feb 23, 2012
Do it. Vast amounts of world debt are illegal and fictional anyway.
spatula7Feb 24, 2012
Good point. But instead of illegal I'd say unjust and undeserved and to force others to suffer over money is ridiculous. If you're going to stimulate the economy so it can get back on its feet and start paying its fair share, you can't at the same time force them into a death spiral of unproductive austerity. This is just a transfer of wealth back to the aristocrats who are the problem in the first place.
cujoquarrelFeb 22, 2012
I think they are right about the IMF. There is nothing that can be done for the Greeks anymore. Default is their only solution.
MunroeMotorsFeb 22, 2012
Creepy. Really creepy.
niksalexFeb 22, 2012
WoHaa Anonymous looks like getting everywhere!
jgbutcherFeb 22, 2012
Wow! I have learned a lot of scary things just reading the comments. I wish more people could wake up and see this stuff! Thanks for all of your great comments.
greenmagnateFeb 22, 2012
there's always a positive/productive side to everything i.e. hacking
pinkfloyd2003Feb 23, 2012
Am I the only one that saw IMF and thought of the Impossible Missions Force from Mission: Impossible?
JBroMarketingFeb 22, 2012
I love how Anonymous is described in the mass media as a hacktivist group. Anyone who listens to their messages can see that it is multiple groups across the globe without central control. "Taking their leadership down" is absurd.
letherialFeb 23, 2012
Anonymous is a flag really, like al-Qaeda or however you spell that name...
Not to compare the two, one is semi harmless, the other is violently crazy....
Though, one could argue the devastating effect of 'clearing all the debt' would do to Greece may well be a terrorist attack, i suppose the ramifications to such a attack would be left on its own, good or bad.
That and with the threat to do it initially,...they are walking a fine line.
However, anyone remotely studying networking will realize that a network is constantly under threat, and that a good back up off the grid and away from the central location is priceless. I doubt they could do this with any true success.
JBroMarketingFeb 23, 2012
Very true about the backups, but based on their past successes, I wouldn't put anything past them. This is especially true as more hackers rally to "their flag." (nice reference)
letherialFeb 23, 2012
"I wouldn't put anything past them"
sadly, i am afraid you might be right.
EdwardMalotteFeb 23, 2012
Genius……
HYIPBloggerFeb 23, 2012
This is really unbelievable. Who needs guns these days, when one a or two people could do smth like this
HYIPBloggerFeb 23, 2012
Unbelievable.
magghuindiaFeb 23, 2012
Nice Post
anatasia110Feb 23, 2012
I am not so sure that IMF is helping or interrupting. Just wondering.
connormatthews2222Feb 23, 2012
Default is the ultimate Destiny
connormatthews2222Feb 23, 2012
Remember the Ps3 Ordeal
sedberry09Feb 22, 2012
This is exciting, go anonymous! I would love to see them display their full power and not a better place for it than on the bastards who are screwing Greece.
frakkinbastardFeb 22, 2012
Stupid kids. The Greek Ministry of Justics doesn't do its job online. They only took down the website, I'm sure the Greek government is quaking with fear. ;)
Yes, the citizens' debts are on the internet for all to tamper with... NOT. Another silly stunt by retards who need self-aggrandizing fantasies to fuel their hurt self. I hope the memory of it will help them through the hard times they will face once they're found and arrested.Comment is buried, click here to see the rest.
fonderplagueFeb 22, 2012
I'm sure they took it down to show that they could easily do more. Obviously you know dick all about hacking
cujoquarrelFeb 22, 2012
Taking down the website is vastly different from actually penetrating the systems that do actually work.
How long did it take them to get the website back to normal?
ancientshoesFeb 23, 2012
anonymous does more hard then they do good, typically
carlmosconiFeb 22, 2012
A few life sentences will take care of the anonymous problem!
fonderplagueFeb 22, 2012
Your stupidity astounds me.
cujoquarrelFeb 22, 2012
I think he's right in that it would take care of a lot of it. Whether we should do something like that is the question
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