niagara-gazette.com— Authorities in New York said they've narrowed the suspects in a shooting down to two twin brothers, but now, they're not sure which one to charge with the crime.
Aug 6, 2010View in Crawl 4
No identical twins don't have identical fingerprints. Even though there's a gene that causes fingerprints, there's no gene that tells fingerprints exactly what pattern to form, so not even someone who shares genes, won't share fingerprints.
the problem however is that there's no scientific evidence that proves no 2 people have the same fingerprints, we just haven't found any examples yet. Fingerprints are not more reliable than DNA because fingerprinting is not backed up by science.
Separate them. Then offer each one a "plea bargain". Tell each brother "you can either deny everything and you will both go to jail, or you can confess and your brother will go free. The one who confesses is most likely innocent. Give the "innocent" brother a gun with blanks in it and tell him that his brother ratted him out. If he shoots the brother he is guilty, if he doesn't shoot his brother, they are most likely covering for each other; throw them both in jail.Comment is buried, click here to see the rest.
thecoinman, if you're serious, this is the dumbest thing I've ever heard. You understand real people don't behave like the objects of a hypothetical thought experiment, right? Here's what's going to happen:
You: You can either deny everything and you will both go to jail, or you can confess and your brother will go free.
Twin: That's not how the justice system works. If you can't prove which twin committed the crime, you can't punish either of us. Therefore, if we deny everything, we both go free.
You: ...
Actually prisoner's dilemma assumes that both of the people are guilty, and if one turns on the other he will get a lesser punishment. It is used to show how they will both accuse the other when it is in their best collective interest to actually cover for each other. It does absolutely nothing to prove guilt or innocence.
In our situation only one person is guilty. Therefore, the prisoner's dilemma does not apply, and your critique of my scenario is invalid.
Oh stanleyford you silly silly man. The whole point of the first question isn't actually to get them to confess, it's to get them to think the other brother ratted them out....hence the separation.
Also of course it's a silly solution, if you were as smart as you act, you would understand that we all know it is impossible to prove who is guilty in this situation without some kind of physical evidence or an alibi to prove which brother was there. So, silly dreamers like me that aren't constrained by the close-mindedness of your 'what would happen in real life' thought process, can only provide "hypothetical thought experiments" as a solution to the problem.
The o.p.'s solution of offering to kill them both is equally silly, the brothers would also know that they could not actually kill them both for the crime! That's why I posted my comment as a reply....context is a bitch that does not like to be ignored.Comment is buried, click here to see the rest.
my first memory of this is from Matlock. Both twins were in cahoots or something, at first they both confessed then when the police tried to trick them they both turned on each other and both blamed the other. Luckily Matlock was there.
Apparently it's a popular plot:
I remember an episode of The Commish (s1e8 1991) where a set of identical twins collaborate to confuse police and avoid a murder charge.
More recently, I caught an episode of The Practice (s6e20 2002) which put a twist on the otherwise same plot, (two identical twin brothers, one rape - who dunnit?!).
It looks like these two guys from New York could spend all day on Netflix going over case law. :)
Of course, but I had just read that last night so it was the first source I thought of when I read this. In this case Cracked actually does have it correctly though, since the existence of another individual (the other identical twin) who matches the description perfectly throws the identity of the suspect into question and raises a "reasonable doubt", making it impossible to convict either of them.
Yeah this actually going to be a very difficult case, especially if the twins made it seem like it's one twin over the other (such as placing a partial print), but then giving that one a damn good alibi. /Maybe I watch too much CSI..
I imagine before long every hardcore criminal and privacy nut will get hair transplants, skin grafts, blood/marrow transfusions, and a whole bunch of other elective surgeries to protect his genetic privacy.
Heck, I can even imagine a marketplace where people buy and sell dna strands of connected politicians to incorporate in their hair, skin, etc.
Funnily enough something like this happened to me not long ago. A friend at school saw a person steal my DS out of my bag, turns out he is one of identical TRIPLETS. Needless to say i never got that back.
Seems I recall an incident some 20 years back, where one twin was attempting to carry a banned substance into Malaysia, where it is a capital crime. Not being able to tell which twin it was, they hanged them both.
Years ago I knew twin brothers that were cowboys. They were always doing each others girlfriends, getting drunk and raising hell in town then sending the Sheriff after the other one, etc. They had a lot of fun at each others expense over the years...
Twins don't have the exact same DNA. If they do a whole genome sequence they will finger a few SNPs that are different. Why? Because every time a cells divides there are a few point mutations .. the cell division process is not perfect (come on it has to copy 2 billion base pairs, give it a break will ya).
So, this crime can be resolved if the police drops $150K .. 50K each for the twins and another 50K to fully sequnce the sample.
Something similar happened to my twin brother and I. We were both called down to the assistant principal's office and were accused of throwing a snowball at a school bus. The bus driver was there and couldn't decide on which one of us threw the snowball. The assistant principal didn't know what to do so he just let us both go. The funny thing is that neither of us had actually thrown the snowball. One of our friends threw it and ran. We sat there laughing at the guy and making fun of his leather jacket so he got a good look at me and my brother.
i am pandawa's twin. we have the same genetic makeup, and hence the same fingerprint. all DNA and fingerprint evidence is 99% useless when dealing with identical twins.
Closed AccountAug 6, 2010
The evil one, stupid.
zetadogAug 6, 2010
Does identical twins have identical fingerprints? I get the police might not have any but I'm curious.
sciguyajAug 6, 2010
No identical twins don't have identical fingerprints. Even though there's a gene that causes fingerprints, there's no gene that tells fingerprints exactly what pattern to form, so not even someone who shares genes, won't share fingerprints.
veni_vidi_viciAug 7, 2010
He's correct. This is why the police say that fingerprints are more reliable than DNA.
pandawaAug 7, 2010
I'm an identical twin, and we have the same fingerprints.
dennycraineAug 7, 2010
the problem however is that there's no scientific evidence that proves no 2 people have the same fingerprints, we just haven't found any examples yet. Fingerprints are not more reliable than DNA because fingerprinting is not backed up by science.
sdphostAug 7, 2010
I'm a fingerprint and I have an identical twin.
emravAug 6, 2010
“¯\(°_o)/¯” I dunno, lol.
piieerrrreeAug 7, 2010
zetadog, I shudder whenever I see your username.
onovandayAug 7, 2010
does you know grammar?
fasterthanthouAug 8, 2010
we do. its freaky.
porkfriedriceAug 6, 2010
force them to duel and try the survivor
amyvernonAug 7, 2010
That sounds reasonable.
mrquackerAug 7, 2010
*unreasonable.
Closed AccountAug 7, 2010
@mrquacker WHOOSH!!
goweigusAug 7, 2010
holy s**t
rustygbAug 6, 2010
They should split up the sentence.
cawpinAug 6, 2010
Yep, it would kind of the opposite of splitting the baby, Kings 3:5-14. The innocent one would surely speak up very loudly.
fungowskiAug 7, 2010
If you could definitively prove that one of them did it but not which, would you send them both to jail or let them both free?
brucealmightyAug 6, 2010
Kill 'em all. Let God sort it out.
ZombiePlagueAug 7, 2010
Caedite eos! Novit enim Dominus qui sunt eius.
Exactly what I was thinking.
40handsAug 7, 2010
Damn! Those alien bastards are gonna pay for shooting up my ride.
dsmxAug 7, 2010
Unfortunately he tried putting his plan into practice, it took 35 federal marshals to take him down and lets never speak of him again.
sciguyajAug 6, 2010
If the movies have taught me anything it's that the one who says "Kill us both" is the good one!
jasmareeAug 7, 2010
In this situation, it would seem like the one that says "punish us both" is the bad one.
thecoinmanAug 7, 2010
Separate them. Then offer each one a "plea bargain". Tell each brother "you can either deny everything and you will both go to jail, or you can confess and your brother will go free. The one who confesses is most likely innocent. Give the "innocent" brother a gun with blanks in it and tell him that his brother ratted him out. If he shoots the brother he is guilty, if he doesn't shoot his brother, they are most likely covering for each other; throw them both in jail.Comment is buried, click here to see the rest.
thecoinmanAug 7, 2010
I'm guessing the people burying me are the same the people who didn't understand Inception and said it was a dumb movie.
Fear that which you do not understand! Bury that which you fear!Comment is buried, click here to see the rest.
dennycraineAug 7, 2010
isn't that called like the prisoners dilemma? If it is it's a common problem in game theory.
stanleyfordAug 7, 2010
thecoinman, if you're serious, this is the dumbest thing I've ever heard. You understand real people don't behave like the objects of a hypothetical thought experiment, right? Here's what's going to happen:
You: You can either deny everything and you will both go to jail, or you can confess and your brother will go free.
Twin: That's not how the justice system works. If you can't prove which twin committed the crime, you can't punish either of us. Therefore, if we deny everything, we both go free.
You: ...
thecoinmanAug 7, 2010
Actually prisoner's dilemma assumes that both of the people are guilty, and if one turns on the other he will get a lesser punishment. It is used to show how they will both accuse the other when it is in their best collective interest to actually cover for each other. It does absolutely nothing to prove guilt or innocence.
In our situation only one person is guilty. Therefore, the prisoner's dilemma does not apply, and your critique of my scenario is invalid.
onebeforezodAug 7, 2010
The force is strong with you. Haha
thecoinmanAug 7, 2010
Oh stanleyford you silly silly man. The whole point of the first question isn't actually to get them to confess, it's to get them to think the other brother ratted them out....hence the separation.
Also of course it's a silly solution, if you were as smart as you act, you would understand that we all know it is impossible to prove who is guilty in this situation without some kind of physical evidence or an alibi to prove which brother was there. So, silly dreamers like me that aren't constrained by the close-mindedness of your 'what would happen in real life' thought process, can only provide "hypothetical thought experiments" as a solution to the problem.
The o.p.'s solution of offering to kill them both is equally silly, the brothers would also know that they could not actually kill them both for the crime! That's why I posted my comment as a reply....context is a bitch that does not like to be ignored.Comment is buried, click here to see the rest.
diggduggjoeAug 7, 2010
There is always the reality that the one confessing actually did it and does care enough for his brother not to f**k him over.
crashcomedianAug 7, 2010
And South Park has taught me the opposite:
http://www.southparkstudios.com/clips/150948
misslindadeeAug 6, 2010
A MOST challenging homicide conundrum, indeed!
ghostwoAug 7, 2010
It's clearly the evil twin, my dear Watson!
dyeung93Aug 6, 2010
i guess twins can escape homicidal charges now...
shenerdAug 6, 2010
I swear this was the plot of a movie on Lifetime...
0ldb0yAug 6, 2010
it reminds of a tv movie back in the 80s called "Dark Mirror", with Jane Seymour playing the twins: http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0087119/
hexrrAug 6, 2010
it was also the plot of an episode of CSI I believe
janineeeAug 6, 2010
No it was Maury Povich, they never did figure out who the father was.
cimordnilapAug 7, 2010
my first memory of this is from Matlock. Both twins were in cahoots or something, at first they both confessed then when the police tried to trick them they both turned on each other and both blamed the other. Luckily Matlock was there.
phuntismAug 7, 2010
Apparently it's a popular plot:
I remember an episode of The Commish (s1e8 1991) where a set of identical twins collaborate to confuse police and avoid a murder charge.
More recently, I caught an episode of The Practice (s6e20 2002) which put a twist on the otherwise same plot, (two identical twin brothers, one rape - who dunnit?!).
It looks like these two guys from New York could spend all day on Netflix going over case law. :)
thc55Aug 6, 2010
i always wanted an evil twin...
mrquackerAug 7, 2010
I wanted a good twin I could blame s**t on.
crackshot91Aug 7, 2010
Digg: Making dreams come true.
hexrrAug 6, 2010
Torture both of them, and eventually one of them will crack
alexbarnes94Aug 7, 2010
Technically neither of them can be convicted, so there's no point in trying either of them unless one of them confesses.
http://www.cracked.com/article_17470_the-7-most-baffling-criminal-defenses-that-sort-worked_p2.html
(it's #1 on the list)
factorof13Aug 7, 2010
That's a funny story, but I would be careful about citing Cracked regarding the technicalities of law.
alexbarnes94Aug 7, 2010
Of course, but I had just read that last night so it was the first source I thought of when I read this. In this case Cracked actually does have it correctly though, since the existence of another individual (the other identical twin) who matches the description perfectly throws the identity of the suspect into question and raises a "reasonable doubt", making it impossible to convict either of them.
maximilenAug 7, 2010
Yeah this actually going to be a very difficult case, especially if the twins made it seem like it's one twin over the other (such as placing a partial print), but then giving that one a damn good alibi. /Maybe I watch too much CSI..
tunathefrogAug 7, 2010
Looks like a classic case of
*Sunglasses*
Double Trouble
howitzer86Aug 7, 2010
No.
Closed AccountAug 7, 2010
This account has been closed by the user
Closed AccountAug 7, 2010
Now that's what I call...
*puts on sunglasses*
double jeopardy.
mrquackerAug 7, 2010
Now thats reasonable doubt.
Closed AccountAug 7, 2010
Which one has the goatee? That's the evil one.
hasahugedigAug 7, 2010
test their DNA!!!!!!11!!1!!1
/s
rmxzAug 7, 2010
I imagine before long every hardcore criminal and privacy nut will get hair transplants, skin grafts, blood/marrow transfusions, and a whole bunch of other elective surgeries to protect his genetic privacy.
Heck, I can even imagine a marketplace where people buy and sell dna strands of connected politicians to incorporate in their hair, skin, etc.
(hmm... off to file a business-model patent)
apocadallAug 7, 2010
I approve of this.
polarbearfireAug 7, 2010
The answer is torture.
/S
Closed AccountAug 7, 2010
it's not challenging... it's quite simple
it's called reasonable doubt
kalvinbAug 7, 2010
Charge them both with murder. If the evidence convicts either one, then throw them both in until one confesses.
I don't think we should let murderers run free just because they're so evil they'd let their own twin rot in prison than confess.
They both had gun residue on their shirts. The non-evil twin should have called the cops.Comment is buried, click here to see the rest.
Closed AccountAug 7, 2010
Future "Law and Order" episode in 3....2.....1
femgineer08Aug 7, 2010
It was already a Law and Order: SVU episode.
dsanonlineAug 7, 2010
I hate to admit this, but there is seriously some reasonable doubt now. How can you convict knowing that you could convict the wrong person?
pandawaAug 7, 2010
as an identical twin, i've contemplated this many, many times.
anub1sAug 7, 2010
This one's easy, it's the one with the curly mustache who always wears a dark top hat and cape that's the evil one.
dervish108Aug 7, 2010
Jack McCoy would try them both in separate courts.
everlast88Aug 7, 2010
Unfortunately, for Oscar, "You've got the wrong twin" was a popular alibi.
bunnymaster3000Aug 7, 2010
Funnily enough something like this happened to me not long ago. A friend at school saw a person steal my DS out of my bag, turns out he is one of identical TRIPLETS. Needless to say i never got that back.
broknmachineAug 7, 2010
I'm disappointed one of them doesn't have a sinister name. That would have been a dead give away.
tmyprodAug 7, 2010
or a goatee.
broknmachineAug 7, 2010
I would also accept a long thin mustache or maniacal laugh.
warpfieldAug 7, 2010
No biggie. Just let Tim Roth on "Lie to Me" question them.
lysswordAug 7, 2010
coincidentally, Tim Roth has a twin IRL ^^
kamarolaAug 7, 2010
i'm oscar
...dot com
lagmarAug 7, 2010
Sounds like a good movie!
xxyglxAug 7, 2010
Seems I recall an incident some 20 years back, where one twin was attempting to carry a banned substance into Malaysia, where it is a capital crime. Not being able to tell which twin it was, they hanged them both.
effzeeAug 7, 2010
Malaysia, you crazy but I loves ya.
joeparanoidAug 10, 2010
Given the chance, American juries would convict both because they prefer the "better safe than sorry" standard of proof.
bcronosAug 7, 2010
Years ago I knew twin brothers that were cowboys. They were always doing each others girlfriends, getting drunk and raising hell in town then sending the Sheriff after the other one, etc. They had a lot of fun at each others expense over the years...
nullcodesAug 7, 2010
Twins don't have the exact same DNA. If they do a whole genome sequence they will finger a few SNPs that are different. Why? Because every time a cells divides there are a few point mutations .. the cell division process is not perfect (come on it has to copy 2 billion base pairs, give it a break will ya).
So, this crime can be resolved if the police drops $150K .. 50K each for the twins and another 50K to fully sequnce the sample.
rizzosbackAug 7, 2010
The Evil Twin Defense. Almost as good as Chewbacca.
ernestpworrellAug 7, 2010
Something similar happened to my twin brother and I. We were both called down to the assistant principal's office and were accused of throwing a snowball at a school bus. The bus driver was there and couldn't decide on which one of us threw the snowball. The assistant principal didn't know what to do so he just let us both go. The funny thing is that neither of us had actually thrown the snowball. One of our friends threw it and ran. We sat there laughing at the guy and making fun of his leather jacket so he got a good look at me and my brother.
battmattAug 7, 2010
brain scan
bradleyyeeAug 7, 2010
capital punishment for their witchery!
fasterthanthouAug 8, 2010
i'm his twin, and i have too
fasterthanthouAug 8, 2010
i am pandawa's twin. we have the same genetic makeup, and hence the same fingerprint. all DNA and fingerprint evidence is 99% useless when dealing with identical twins.
joeparanoidAug 10, 2010
The cops will use this case to promote even more draconian and unconstitutional techniques.