There are many commercial contracts that don't require a clearance or a clearance can be attained while working on the contract. However, government contracts typically require at least a Secret clearance, if that contract requires site work in a DoD intelligence agency, you'll probably need a TS/SCI clearance, if it's an FBI, CIA, or State Department contract you'll need a TS/SCI with a polygraph.
Finding a developer isn't all that difficult. Finding a developer with the skills you need, at the price you want to pay, with ability to get the security clearance is damn hard.
Don't jobs for agencies like the FBI where you work as a Security specialist require clearance? Don't those guys hack other systems sometimes or do I watch too many TV shows/movies?
I haven't worked but casually in IT for awhile now, but I used to do a lot of contracting for the government...umm, is there some sort of transitive security clearance certification you get now? LOL...because I always had to get it on a case-by-case basis. If I worked for A, and it was Top Secret, B didn't care, even if it was only Secret.
I think even if you have a certain level of clearance, there are different categories. So you can't even share info with people who have the same or higher clearance if they are in another category. Kinda like: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lattice-based_access_control
Too bad it sucks almost as hard as JavaScript. Mang do I hate Java and the craptastic IDE's that support it like Eclipse, Netbeans,etc. Probably because they are also written in Java
Don't know why you got dugg down.. Java does suck. It's slow, s**tty, and its updates are f**king ridiculous to manage from an admin's viewpoint. Any time you have to write complicated scripts to kill old versions of a plug-in and install a new one, you lose points. And Java seems to get updated even more frequently than Adobe. Piece of s**t.
At least with the newer Java 6 update 10+ plug-ins, they're a bit better about removing old versions. But still not great.
That really isn't my problem so much as anything I've worked on in Java, I had wished was in a more native language (say, server applications written entirely in Java... while I guess nicer to work in than C... it's a server application... don't want to be running a server application in a Java VM environment!).
Other than that, you can't really beat it's cross platform compatibility ease.
Just additional overhead and another piece of software you're dependent upon, not a deal breaker but I'm picky about server software. It would be like writing Apache in Java. To me that concept is wrong.
That and the sound libraries have problems running a decent SIP phone.
I agree on the server software.. A lot of us are a lot more picky about our servers. Servers should be purpose-built and streamlined for that purpose with as little overhead as possible. Don't need it? Don't install it.
I'd rather have increased security and developer productivity than save a little memory (speed should be about the same with C++ or Java). There are several HTTP servers written in Java, and they all perform just fine.
For applets on web pages, yes, those are not what Java devs are going to be focused on. However, Java extends to more than a desktop application program, it's used for JSPs and many mobile devices such as the Android. Java won't be going away anytime soon.
Java's probably not the best tool for any programming task I can think of except perhaps mobile phone apps.
For OO programing, there are better languages out there (Ruby, Lisp, etc)
For optimizing for developer time, there are better languages (Python, Ruby, Lisp, etc)
For micro-optimizations, there are better languages (C, Lisp, and yes, still assembly if you're using modern CPU's vector instructions)
For highly parallel architectures there are better languages (Erlang, Scala, etc)
It's so very easy to write C extensions to Ruby and Python these days, I'd claim that Ruby + C or Python + C are a better choice for most applications than Java.
The one big exception seems to be mobile phones, where the platform unfortunately practically forces you into a language (sometimes objective c, sometimes java)
i am a fan of c++. and u did not mention it. I really feel bad about it :-(
most software that we are using right now are all made up of c++ at least u should put it in the OO programming section
LOL at the C++ fans. It doesn't have a particularly full set of Object Oriented features. And isn't particularly good at low-level stuff since there's a lot of magic in what even a simple + operator does.
Worst, practically all C++ programmers don't really know the language at all. I used to ask interviewees this simple question: http://www.gotw.ca/gotw/005.htm about how C++ chooses which method will get called in a simple 2-level inheritance tree.
In 4 years of asking it of many dozens of candidates, only 1 person got it right - and he said he only did so because he studied that exact question the night before. I could elaborate, or I could just refer you to an older thread where I had the same debate with C++ advocates here: http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=100202&cid=8540772
If there's one good thing I can say for Java it's that it's a much safer environment for all those "C++ programmers" to use instead.
And .NET? -- I've seen one and only good reason to use that one --- when you're going after federal government deals and Microsoft will lend you some of their lobbyists to help compete against Oracle and IBM who are also good at that game.
rpgmakr: PHP
Yes, I should have added that one in the optimizing for developer time category.
JAVA is a good al-rounder, not the best in anything. Of course you can probably find some exotic language that's very good at one aspect that JAVA lacks (how many people do use Erlang today, does Ericsson still use it for telephony?). Okay, python is far from obscure, and has many strengths (although personally I think it sucks that indentation is used to define nesting instead of clear block operators like { }) JAVA forces more structure in code and when projects involve many people with varying skill, it's great to have code that's more readable and processable by an IDE (like Eclipse). The biggest disadvantage is doing anything GUI, that's something that's horrible in JAVA from day 0 onwards,
Bingo. I've been working with Java on-and-off since version 1.2 (circa ~1999?), but I recently took it off my resume. I'm done with it.
I don't care if it pays well, it's just not worth it. Working on an overly convoluted, bloated Java nightmare project (and I've seen enough of those to know they're depressingly common) leads to near suicidal levels of job satisfaction.
At the end of day, I'm simply much happier (and far more productive at getting actual stuff done) working with something like PHP and a decent framework (currently liking Drupal).
I used to be a PHP developer - those were good times. Drupal is a nightmare though - once you have a big project that sucker gets too hard to hack into what you want. These days I'm enjoying python - great stuff.
Why are so many people hating on Java? It's a great language. You won't find any perfect programming language out there, but in terms of scripting and capabilities - Java is great in its own regard.
The language itself may be good... it's just the end user experience that sucks. The official runtime from sun is terrible, and every app I've seen runs terribly. The only reason to use it is for cross platform applications.
My fault - I should have looked more closely at the title and not just made some brash comment in defense. I was referring to the language - and there are some good open source java-based applications out there, but you're right - the rt from sun is awful and most of the supported ones suck, too.
Why does the official JRE "suck?" The problem is their focus is probably different than your focus.
You can't blame the end-user experience on the language, only the developer writing the application. The problem is that Java doesn't hold your hand with building GUI's like VB, and it doesn't totally abstract it like web-based applications do. You have to actually know how to build a GUI, know how to set the look-and-feel.
The failing is that Java allows anyone to program, but not everyone SHOULD program. There are those who are smart enough to understand code when it's handed to them, but that doesn't mean they have the ability to write code from scratch. It's the plethora of s**tty programmers out there that poison the reputation of the language.Comment is buried, click here to see the rest.
With JavaFX writing UIs is pretty easy now, and it's really easy to write a program in Java and have a JavaFX UI driving it. JavaFX still needs a lot of work before it's as easy as any of the Visual Studio stuff, but it's getting there. The only problem is the fact that it runs so slow.
@drmangrum It sucks because it's very slow to load and start up, plus it bugs you to update all the time and the update process is not very friendly. Compare the JRE to Adobe's Flash player. As much as I dislike Adobe, the flash player provides a good end-user experience.
The official JRE is piss poor because it inherently is a f**king memory hog. Couple that with a s**tty UI rendering engine, extremely inefficient abstraction of certain things (memory management, devices), update notifications, and you've got yourself a piece of s**t.
Uh, no. Java has had a language independent scripting framework API in it since Java 6 was released several years ago.
Even before that came out Java already had a lot of languages implemented in it. JavaScript (Rhino), Prolog, Python (Jython), etc. Not to mention Bean Shell, Groovy, and many others that evolved from within the Java community.
Java doesn't have any of the syntactic sugar I've come to love in modern programming languages; it uses strict typing (say what you want about allowing the language to catch your typing mistakes, but typeless variables and return values actually have a lot of practical uses); it has to be compiled manually, rather than automatically on demand by the interpreter; it seems to require dozens of separate libraries in order to do the simplest things; and although the idea of everything being an object does have advantages, it shouldn't require everything to be set up using full-form class definitions.
I'd love to see a language similar to JavaScript, but with more straight-forward support for classical object models (without throwing away the benefits of the prototype model), support for magic (getter/setter) variables, some of Python's nice syntactic sugar (shorthand array/string slices, etc.), and PHP's standard library (minus the convention inconsistencies you see in PHP). Oh, and "include" statements, which JavaScript is sadly lacking at the moment.
You need to be able to have the language catch errors and point out constraints that are enforced at compile time.
One of the great failings of C++ is that it screwed this up badly and you never knew what sort of exceptions were going to be thrown. I have seen 3rd party C++ libraries throw "false" (the C++ Boolean constant value) when any type of hardware error occurred. That was not declared in the external API nor in most of the implementation code were the error was being caught & rethrown or was simply "passing through".
In Java, that developer would not have been able to create such ah literally senseless monstrosity. Doing anything remotely like that could be detected by simple source file searching, using a modern IDE like Eclipse, or custom code that searched through the bytecodes and metadata in class files. With C++, none of those things were quite as easy as they are in Java.
Yes, Python, C++, and C# let you override your operators. Java does not. Java consequently has better IDEs as a direct result of that. In those other languages, IDEs and refactoring tools have to guess what your intent and your code's behavior actually is - because there is no way it can know in many cases. In Java, it can know because there are some pretty rigorous rules that spell out how the language works, and both developers & tools reap the benefits.
Most of the time, when someone wants to override a mathematical operator, they just want to because it is "powerful" or it lets them do "cool things". They have not thought about the subtle semantics that already exist or how their mutant version will alter them, nor about all the special cases for how their operator handler might be called. These oversights lead to serious fault injections.
The articles I have read said that a lot of this kind of syntactic sugar is useful 2 to 5 percent of the time. The rest of the time it is abused or a wash.
Java does have syntactic sugar in it; some, at least.
The generics are syntactic sugar that potentially simplifies your source code. It does not work quite the same way as templates in C++ but the syntax, idea, objectives, and usage is similar. It has simplified the semantics of handling generic data structures that was awkward before, and it made code that used those data structures much more typesafe and thus error-proofed than they were before.
Magic getter/setter variables are convenient in some situations but you have to guess what the implementation does and in fact guess that it exists. The vast majority of "singleton" classes I have seen implemented got the implmentation badly wrong, and singletons are really simple and well documented/explained. So you know there are going to be all kinds of craziness when getters/setters are written.
With annotations Java lets you slip the surly bonds of its a original syntax while still making the resulting code easy to maintain, if there is some discipline in writing it. The metadata is all there.
With other languages, they really are not any more typesafe than LISP or assembly language. That is a big step backwards to me.
"...but typeless variables and return values actually have a lot of practical use..."
You should be cut up and the pieces of your body cast to the ends of the Earth.
Seriously, I was working with other developers on a lot of PHP applications, and all we could do was complain about duck typing, it's _lazy_. In other languages you can use templating and type casting and a bunch of other tools at your disposal... but most of all you f**king know what kind of memory structures you're dealing with, as opposed to "is this a char? Is it a string? Is it a stringbuffer?" these things f**king matter when performance is involved.
All of your gripes seem synonymous with bad programming habits. You should never be using typeless variables and Java does allow return values so not sure what you meant there. Some applications have a legitimate need to be compiled manually (not everything is going to be web/server based) and the libraries can get annoying, but you're not forced to use them. If you don't want to use a library, make your own class - it's not that hard. In other languages you'd have to create those functions from scratch anyway.
I do agree though that Java is not my favourite language, but it certainly isn't terrible.
Personally, I loathe how the Swing API is set up. Also, the popular Java IDEs(Eclipse, NetBeans.) are crash prone and buggy on Windows. (Auto-update breaking your IDE entirely? Always a good thing when you're in the middle of a project!)
C# is just leaps and bounds ahead of Java.
Java is terrible for the end user. (fact)
And if you're planning on running java as something server-sided (like most corporations do) then it's even worst, no memory is enough for that!!
And java introduces a new layer of incompatibility, yes, we don't have OS dependencies (lie) or cpu dependencies (truth) but we do have virtual-machine-implementation dependency, and that counts a lot.
Also, java is always slower than native code, since you have to interpret it.
So besides people who are beginning to develop now, with their 6gb+ ram for a single application on their desktop (the common case for java developers), I see that almost all people who opted for java are not due to technical virtues, so I'm guessing here but that's gotta be that they've learned it in highschool and now are using it along.
People can hate me for that, and I know some people will, but that's just unbiased truth, all these things DO happen all the time! In fact, I may be paranoid here, but most of the time I have to run something java based I get the feeling that it's not going to work.
In my experience, Java is a great language to begin development of an app for a client. With more and more Macs out there, it's cross-platform capabilities are useful. It also plays nicely with databases and graphics (using JDBC & JOGL).Comment is buried, click here to see the rest.
They are? I'm having a hard time finding a hiring manger that wants to hire a C# programmer, all they seem to be hiring for in my area is C++, JAVA and whatever the frak that IBM language is.
I am merely suggesting that Java has become the same sort of accepted standard language for many large Enterprise systems just as Cobol was in its heyday. Cobol had wide acceptance because there were fewer choices in the early decades of business-scale computing. Java has far more competition these days, but it has still managed to gain a strong foothold in Enterprise systems. Java, in a sense, has become more successful in less time. While I am not a fan of Java, I acknowledge its contributions to the Enterprise and realize that it will be around perhaps longer than it is relevant (much like Cobol). Ultimately it is not languages that make computing and systems but instead a broader architecture defined by processes and flows. Although spoken and written human languages are important, they do not represent all forms of communication and interaction between persons. IT jobs will always be greater than the sum of the individual skills and languages because of this.
Java has been around for fifteen years already outside of Sun. The language itself and the compilers are actually almost 20 years old because Sun R&D developed & polished it in-house before release.
Java has already addressed a lot of problems in advance of those problems rearing their heads and attacking other languages & platforms. Who has not heard of all the buffer overrun problems in Windows & IE and the serious computer hacking problems that result?
Java's core,j the Java Virtual Machine (JVM) which includes the bytecode interpreter and some low-level native code is written in C/C++. However, the bulk of what you get nowadays are class libraries and frameworks written in Java itself.
This system code, like Java application code, is protected from these archaic errors. So while some code is going to be vulnerable, it's a minority of it and at least every application developer is not exposing users to these antiquated risks.
COBOL has not made it as a big mainstream language throughout the micro/personal computer era that started in the late 1970s.
The languages that did catch on during this era , for a time, included: BASIC, assembly language, Pascal, C, C++, and Java. Of these languages, pretty much all of them but Java have shown serious problems in one or more areas: modularity/maintainability, lack of abstraction, lack of portability, etc. Microsoft even tried to ape Java's success with C#, so there is a clear example of where a BASIC, C, and C++ vendor felt like those languages were just not the right tool to get a lot of jobs done anymore.
Java is clearly going to be around more years. How many, is anyone's guess. It is heavily used in government, financial, medical, web, Internet, phone telecom, and cell phone industries. It is actively supported by Oracle, IBM, and many others. It looks like it has more years in it.
COBOL did not really fit the microcomputer desktop platform very well. it was heavily oriented towards ancient file storage and database format technologies. It was also incredibly verbose. Java has a core syntax that is simple yet powerful. When COBOL was dreamed up half a century ago, concepts like OOP and structured programming had not yet emerged.
The next languages will probably show escalated concern with: security, fraud/trickery, accountability, traceability/auditability, comprehensibility, distributed processing, user/institution/vendor assigned permissions, verifiability, validation, inference & deductive logic rules, and so forth.
Most of these Java already does but some of them were not original features of the language and its libraries but added on later as an after thought or never made official parts of the language/system.
Java rocks!! Yes, the apps do suck, but what you can do with it on the server side to throw rich internet applications and create richly connected desktop applications make it the choice for enterprise. Anybody seen any real rich desktop or internet applications that didn't have some form of Java implemented lately?? Also, with frameworks like Google Web Toolkit, it's become even more popular. Yes, it is slow on the desktop, but I don't see a whole lot of people running out to purchase that killer desktop app lately....Comment is buried, click here to see the rest.
"Anybody seen any real rich desktop or internet applications that didn't have some form of Java implemented lately??"
Let's see.. Wikipedia, Facebook, WordPress, Flickr, Digg, and Yahoo! all run mostly or entirely on PHP. YouTube and Reddit were written in Python. Most "rich" desktop applications I use were written in Python (in fact, I don't think I use any desktop applications that were written in Java anymore).
Facebook uses a c**ktail of languages and systems that you wouldn't f**king believe.
Erlang for chat etc., massive amounts of C extensions to every application and facet of PHP, memcached, etc imaginable.
Read the engineering blog and have your f**king mind blown.
Yepper.... just about all the programming jobs are getting exported, which explains the great success of job shop services like oDesk. It's a pithy too! I lasted on oDesk for one hour as a shopper - I can't compete with Eastern Europe and Indian salary requirements. Then about a month ago hired a programmer on oDesk and was totally depressed with the quality. I ended up re-coding the cluster f)&( myself. The sad part is that most 'hiring managers' are not coders themselves and are strapped by budgets that require them to hire H-1B.
I can't find a developer worth a s**t in Pittsburgh right now. I'd hire you on the spot if you ever interfaced with a database and know something about working in a team environment (source control, regression testing, etc).
In Raleigh/Durham Research Triangle Park area, there are more .NET jobs than programmers. It wasn't as in demand in Oct/Nov last year but the market is ridiculous right now. This from talking to many recruiters and finding a job of my own.
We have been looking for months.
We get thousands upon thousands of applications.
The good people are being drowned out.
You might be a great developer. All I can say... is... take your resume... put it next to an idiot developer's resume... and you can't tell the difference. Try to look at it from the hiring end.
We get Master's degree people who don't understand variable scope.
The last MASS group of good developers probably came 2003-2004... as they entered university before the crash. Ever since then, it's like a needle in a haystack. A few good developers, but thousands upon thousands of people who can't develop worth a damn.
And lord help you if you hire a few bad programmers. No good developer will want to join your team.
I don't know the answer... but don't blame the hiring end. We're swamped with resumes.
I totally f**king agree. I used to work for a software company (small, mind you) right under CTO.
I'd interview people with degrees who didn't know jack s**t.
When applying to a new company, I took all of the QA I would do from my standard interview process and put it in my cover letter. The interview, needless to say, was far more painless as I had answered every predictable question due to just having the experience with it.
They teach Java in college. It's a nice language that has kept things simple. It shouldn't be difficult to find Java developers.
However, C# developers tend to be developed after college. C# is more difficult to pick up in entirety than Java, and I'm not sure that developers out of college are interested in learning a "proprietary" language from Microsoft. The perception is still out there that Java developers are better than C# developers.
The demand for .NET developers is indeed growing faster than the supply of well trained C# developers.
Corporations like Java because they believe it allows them turn programmers into commodities that can then be shifted to the lowest paid locations on the planet. The entire paradigm of a virtual execution environment makes this very easy. This coupled with 20 years of the schools churning out programming degrees based on this nonsense is the market is flooded with coders who lack the depth needed for real assignments. The few real software engineers have moved on to something else. This is why the the corporations can't find anyone now.
Because Java Web apps while sometimes useful were a pain in the ass for a decade. I personally haven't touched a Java desktop program in 7 years because they performed so poorly. And don't even get me started on some of the various corporate software written in Java.
Probably because aiming for security in the enterprise leads you back to creating applications that do not have serious flaws in them in the first place. Band-aids do not work so well for so long in computers at keeping infections out, as does having a healthy system in the first place.
It's working out pretty well, actually. Some jobs won't be out sourced because the schools in India aren't advanced enough. That's a huge benefit of a research job. Drones aren't researchers.
Also, many programming jobs require security clearance and citizenship. Outsourcing won't help that.
Most small and mid sized companies don't outsource anyways.
Java programmers are a dime a dozen, quite literally if you hire from India.
GOOD Java programmers are indeed a rare breed, I think I've only ever met one, he actually had some idea of what performance and security meant, oddly enough he wanted to get out of Java programming!
Really? Because I've been programming for over a decade and have my bachelors, and I've been doing Java for about 4 years now- but I've been passed up on by a few employers for entry level Java dev as "not enough experience". I guess its not that high demand if they're able to be picky.
Unfortunately, I'd say help desk and tech support is the higher demand as it has such a high turnover rate. I'm constantly contacted for those positions. Its such a thankless and low paying part of IT that no one wants to stay in it. Fields in IT that require you have experience and education (ie, software dev, security, database, etc)? Yea, those are ones that right now people take and stay in and pursue full careers with.
If employers are in short supply of the fields listed, then they need to stop being picky and stingy on salaries. The recession is on its way out- time to start investing and getting labor for what is ultimately still a bargain to them. I'll gladly fill these positions posted, but employers are still in the mindset that its a "buyers market" to them and they can hire experience/qualified/educated labor for college-student rates.
How can you be "bad" at Java? How can you screw that up? I have been developing in Java for about three years now and don't really see the issues that you have with the lower abstraction languages like C/C++ I love C++ not so much C though. It's not like you can write a bad pointer or anything like that...
Java is making a come back - thanks to strong demand of IBM and Oracle products - and also attributable to the fact that many new paradigms driving the industry - like SOA and Cloud Computing make heavy use of Java products
infestusJul 10, 2010
Who would have thought the products most in demand will need people who can use them.
joculatorJul 11, 2010
Anyone notice salaries on Dice run a bit lower than other job search sites?
rpgmakrJul 12, 2010
Do you know a better site?
magzineJul 11, 2010
I like how (all of the following) are above. "10. Active Federal Government Security Clearance".
Didn't realize it was harder to find a software developer...
drmangrumJul 11, 2010
There are many commercial contracts that don't require a clearance or a clearance can be attained while working on the contract. However, government contracts typically require at least a Secret clearance, if that contract requires site work in a DoD intelligence agency, you'll probably need a TS/SCI clearance, if it's an FBI, CIA, or State Department contract you'll need a TS/SCI with a polygraph.
Finding a developer isn't all that difficult. Finding a developer with the skills you need, at the price you want to pay, with ability to get the security clearance is damn hard.
stuffradioJul 11, 2010
Don't jobs for agencies like the FBI where you work as a Security specialist require clearance? Don't those guys hack other systems sometimes or do I watch too many TV shows/movies?
smacksawJul 11, 2010
I haven't worked but casually in IT for awhile now, but I used to do a lot of contracting for the government...umm, is there some sort of transitive security clearance certification you get now? LOL...because I always had to get it on a case-by-case basis. If I worked for A, and it was Top Secret, B didn't care, even if it was only Secret.
johnm5Jul 12, 2010
I think even if you have a certain level of clearance, there are different categories. So you can't even share info with people who have the same or higher clearance if they are in another category. Kinda like: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lattice-based_access_control
dankoozyJul 11, 2010
Too bad it sucks almost as hard as JavaScript. Mang do I hate Java and the craptastic IDE's that support it like Eclipse, Netbeans,etc. Probably because they are also written in Java
I have yet to see one app made in Java that doesn't suckComment is buried, click here to see the rest.
waloshinJul 11, 2010
Opera Mini doesn't suck.
berobreoJul 11, 2010
Java Doesn't Suck..
berobreoJul 11, 2010
Javascript Doesn't Suck ... ç
(http://www.crockford.com/javascript/javascript.html)
Closed AccountJul 11, 2010
Don't know why you got dugg down.. Java does suck. It's slow, s**tty, and its updates are f**king ridiculous to manage from an admin's viewpoint. Any time you have to write complicated scripts to kill old versions of a plug-in and install a new one, you lose points. And Java seems to get updated even more frequently than Adobe. Piece of s**t.
At least with the newer Java 6 update 10+ plug-ins, they're a bit better about removing old versions. But still not great.
localzukJul 12, 2010
Java is a LOT more than s**tty in browser applets you know...
drmangrumJul 11, 2010
If you think Eclipse is a craptastic IDE, then you probably don't know how to use it
strangewillJul 11, 2010
That really isn't my problem so much as anything I've worked on in Java, I had wished was in a more native language (say, server applications written entirely in Java... while I guess nicer to work in than C... it's a server application... don't want to be running a server application in a Java VM environment!).
Other than that, you can't really beat it's cross platform compatibility ease.
mcprogrammerJul 12, 2010
What's wrong with running a server application in a VM?
strangewillJul 12, 2010
Just additional overhead and another piece of software you're dependent upon, not a deal breaker but I'm picky about server software. It would be like writing Apache in Java. To me that concept is wrong.
That and the sound libraries have problems running a decent SIP phone.
Closed AccountJul 12, 2010
I agree on the server software.. A lot of us are a lot more picky about our servers. Servers should be purpose-built and streamlined for that purpose with as little overhead as possible. Don't need it? Don't install it.
I hate Java apps on servers.
mcprogrammerJul 12, 2010
I'd rather have increased security and developer productivity than save a little memory (speed should be about the same with C++ or Java). There are several HTTP servers written in Java, and they all perform just fine.
burrduggJul 11, 2010
I thought Java was a dead end.
aliberalmindJul 11, 2010
For applets on web pages, yes, those are not what Java devs are going to be focused on. However, Java extends to more than a desktop application program, it's used for JSPs and many mobile devices such as the Android. Java won't be going away anytime soon.
strictneinJul 11, 2010
Java EE 6 is pretty killer.
nicko68Jul 12, 2010
No way. I work for a consulting company who contracts us out, and Java is still very much in demand.
Closed AccountJul 12, 2010
It will be in terms of what it does in the software world by .NET
elevenJul 11, 2010
Harder to find because developers are moving on to alternative pastures.
rmxzJul 11, 2010
+1 It's like Cobol was back in the day.
Java's probably not the best tool for any programming task I can think of except perhaps mobile phone apps.
For OO programing, there are better languages out there (Ruby, Lisp, etc)
For optimizing for developer time, there are better languages (Python, Ruby, Lisp, etc)
For micro-optimizations, there are better languages (C, Lisp, and yes, still assembly if you're using modern CPU's vector instructions)
For highly parallel architectures there are better languages (Erlang, Scala, etc)
It's so very easy to write C extensions to Ruby and Python these days, I'd claim that Ruby + C or Python + C are a better choice for most applications than Java.
The one big exception seems to be mobile phones, where the platform unfortunately practically forces you into a language (sometimes objective c, sometimes java)
orky7Jul 11, 2010
i am a fan of c++. and u did not mention it. I really feel bad about it :-(
most software that we are using right now are all made up of c++ at least u should put it in the OO programming section
xander99Jul 11, 2010
Aye, C++ should've definitely been mentioned, more-so than LISP. I don't think I've ever seen a job posting or poject involving LISP in 20+ years.
nicko68Jul 12, 2010
LISP = Lost In Stupid Parentheses
azuvectorJul 12, 2010
To be fair, C++ job postings are pretty hard to come by too.
rpgmakrJul 12, 2010
@rmxz: No one leaves java for Ruby, Python or C, they leave for .NET and PHP.
rmxzJul 12, 2010
LOL at the C++ fans. It doesn't have a particularly full set of Object Oriented features. And isn't particularly good at low-level stuff since there's a lot of magic in what even a simple + operator does.
Worst, practically all C++ programmers don't really know the language at all. I used to ask interviewees this simple question: http://www.gotw.ca/gotw/005.htm about how C++ chooses which method will get called in a simple 2-level inheritance tree.
In 4 years of asking it of many dozens of candidates, only 1 person got it right - and he said he only did so because he studied that exact question the night before. I could elaborate, or I could just refer you to an older thread where I had the same debate with C++ advocates here: http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=100202&cid=8540772
If there's one good thing I can say for Java it's that it's a much safer environment for all those "C++ programmers" to use instead.
And .NET? -- I've seen one and only good reason to use that one --- when you're going after federal government deals and Microsoft will lend you some of their lobbyists to help compete against Oracle and IBM who are also good at that game.
rpgmakr: PHP
Yes, I should have added that one in the optimizing for developer time category.
hongkongjapieJul 29, 2010
JAVA is a good al-rounder, not the best in anything. Of course you can probably find some exotic language that's very good at one aspect that JAVA lacks (how many people do use Erlang today, does Ericsson still use it for telephony?). Okay, python is far from obscure, and has many strengths (although personally I think it sucks that indentation is used to define nesting instead of clear block operators like { }) JAVA forces more structure in code and when projects involve many people with varying skill, it's great to have code that's more readable and processable by an IDE (like Eclipse). The biggest disadvantage is doing anything GUI, that's something that's horrible in JAVA from day 0 onwards,
morwyndJul 28, 2010
Bingo. I've been working with Java on-and-off since version 1.2 (circa ~1999?), but I recently took it off my resume. I'm done with it.
I don't care if it pays well, it's just not worth it. Working on an overly convoluted, bloated Java nightmare project (and I've seen enough of those to know they're depressingly common) leads to near suicidal levels of job satisfaction.
And I'm in good company... Google engineer Rob Pike (formerly of AT&T's legendary Bell Labs) recently railed against the over-complexity of Java and C++ (http://infoworld.com/d/developer-world/google-executive-frustrated-java-c-complexity-375). Of course he was pimping Google's new "Go" language, but his points are still valid.
At the end of day, I'm simply much happier (and far more productive at getting actual stuff done) working with something like PHP and a decent framework (currently liking Drupal).
elevenJul 28, 2010
I used to be a PHP developer - those were good times. Drupal is a nightmare though - once you have a big project that sucker gets too hard to hack into what you want. These days I'm enjoying python - great stuff.
gotbannedagainJul 11, 2010
Why are so many people hating on Java? It's a great language. You won't find any perfect programming language out there, but in terms of scripting and capabilities - Java is great in its own regard.
bigt383Jul 11, 2010
The language itself may be good... it's just the end user experience that sucks. The official runtime from sun is terrible, and every app I've seen runs terribly. The only reason to use it is for cross platform applications.
smotpokerJul 11, 2010
"The only reason to use it is for cross platform applications."
And developer laziness
gotbannedagainJul 11, 2010
My fault - I should have looked more closely at the title and not just made some brash comment in defense. I was referring to the language - and there are some good open source java-based applications out there, but you're right - the rt from sun is awful and most of the supported ones suck, too.
Closed AccountJul 11, 2010
I thought java was supposed to be better for running remote applications because of the small bytecode (less info to send for one instruction).
drmangrumJul 11, 2010
Why does the official JRE "suck?" The problem is their focus is probably different than your focus.
You can't blame the end-user experience on the language, only the developer writing the application. The problem is that Java doesn't hold your hand with building GUI's like VB, and it doesn't totally abstract it like web-based applications do. You have to actually know how to build a GUI, know how to set the look-and-feel.
The failing is that Java allows anyone to program, but not everyone SHOULD program. There are those who are smart enough to understand code when it's handed to them, but that doesn't mean they have the ability to write code from scratch. It's the plethora of s**tty programmers out there that poison the reputation of the language.Comment is buried, click here to see the rest.
cyclonusripJul 11, 2010
With JavaFX writing UIs is pretty easy now, and it's really easy to write a program in Java and have a JavaFX UI driving it. JavaFX still needs a lot of work before it's as easy as any of the Visual Studio stuff, but it's getting there. The only problem is the fact that it runs so slow.
bigt383Jul 12, 2010
@drmangrum It sucks because it's very slow to load and start up, plus it bugs you to update all the time and the update process is not very friendly. Compare the JRE to Adobe's Flash player. As much as I dislike Adobe, the flash player provides a good end-user experience.
xkorbinJul 12, 2010
The official JRE is piss poor because it inherently is a f**king memory hog. Couple that with a s**tty UI rendering engine, extremely inefficient abstraction of certain things (memory management, devices), update notifications, and you've got yourself a piece of s**t.
haploJul 11, 2010
Scripting capabilities? Aren't you talking about JavaScript?
johnnysoftwareJul 11, 2010
Uh, no. Java has had a language independent scripting framework API in it since Java 6 was released several years ago.
Even before that came out Java already had a lot of languages implemented in it. JavaScript (Rhino), Prolog, Python (Jython), etc. Not to mention Bean Shell, Groovy, and many others that evolved from within the Java community.
nanobeJul 11, 2010
Java doesn't have any of the syntactic sugar I've come to love in modern programming languages; it uses strict typing (say what you want about allowing the language to catch your typing mistakes, but typeless variables and return values actually have a lot of practical uses); it has to be compiled manually, rather than automatically on demand by the interpreter; it seems to require dozens of separate libraries in order to do the simplest things; and although the idea of everything being an object does have advantages, it shouldn't require everything to be set up using full-form class definitions.
I'd love to see a language similar to JavaScript, but with more straight-forward support for classical object models (without throwing away the benefits of the prototype model), support for magic (getter/setter) variables, some of Python's nice syntactic sugar (shorthand array/string slices, etc.), and PHP's standard library (minus the convention inconsistencies you see in PHP). Oh, and "include" statements, which JavaScript is sadly lacking at the moment.
johnnysoftwareJul 11, 2010
You need to be able to have the language catch errors and point out constraints that are enforced at compile time.
One of the great failings of C++ is that it screwed this up badly and you never knew what sort of exceptions were going to be thrown. I have seen 3rd party C++ libraries throw "false" (the C++ Boolean constant value) when any type of hardware error occurred. That was not declared in the external API nor in most of the implementation code were the error was being caught & rethrown or was simply "passing through".
In Java, that developer would not have been able to create such ah literally senseless monstrosity. Doing anything remotely like that could be detected by simple source file searching, using a modern IDE like Eclipse, or custom code that searched through the bytecodes and metadata in class files. With C++, none of those things were quite as easy as they are in Java.
Yes, Python, C++, and C# let you override your operators. Java does not. Java consequently has better IDEs as a direct result of that. In those other languages, IDEs and refactoring tools have to guess what your intent and your code's behavior actually is - because there is no way it can know in many cases. In Java, it can know because there are some pretty rigorous rules that spell out how the language works, and both developers & tools reap the benefits.
Most of the time, when someone wants to override a mathematical operator, they just want to because it is "powerful" or it lets them do "cool things". They have not thought about the subtle semantics that already exist or how their mutant version will alter them, nor about all the special cases for how their operator handler might be called. These oversights lead to serious fault injections.
The articles I have read said that a lot of this kind of syntactic sugar is useful 2 to 5 percent of the time. The rest of the time it is abused or a wash.
Java does have syntactic sugar in it; some, at least.
The generics are syntactic sugar that potentially simplifies your source code. It does not work quite the same way as templates in C++ but the syntax, idea, objectives, and usage is similar. It has simplified the semantics of handling generic data structures that was awkward before, and it made code that used those data structures much more typesafe and thus error-proofed than they were before.
Magic getter/setter variables are convenient in some situations but you have to guess what the implementation does and in fact guess that it exists. The vast majority of "singleton" classes I have seen implemented got the implmentation badly wrong, and singletons are really simple and well documented/explained. So you know there are going to be all kinds of craziness when getters/setters are written.
With annotations Java lets you slip the surly bonds of its a original syntax while still making the resulting code easy to maintain, if there is some discipline in writing it. The metadata is all there.
With other languages, they really are not any more typesafe than LISP or assembly language. That is a big step backwards to me.
strangewillJul 11, 2010
"...but typeless variables and return values actually have a lot of practical use..."
You should be cut up and the pieces of your body cast to the ends of the Earth.
Seriously, I was working with other developers on a lot of PHP applications, and all we could do was complain about duck typing, it's _lazy_. In other languages you can use templating and type casting and a bunch of other tools at your disposal... but most of all you f**king know what kind of memory structures you're dealing with, as opposed to "is this a char? Is it a string? Is it a stringbuffer?" these things f**king matter when performance is involved.
linkymonkeyJul 11, 2010
Let me guess, you're a self taught programmer?
All of your gripes seem synonymous with bad programming habits. You should never be using typeless variables and Java does allow return values so not sure what you meant there. Some applications have a legitimate need to be compiled manually (not everything is going to be web/server based) and the libraries can get annoying, but you're not forced to use them. If you don't want to use a library, make your own class - it's not that hard. In other languages you'd have to create those functions from scratch anyway.
I do agree though that Java is not my favourite language, but it certainly isn't terrible.
xkorbinJul 12, 2010
Java is not terrible, the JRE is.
thealliedhackerJul 11, 2010
C# is so much better.
stuffradioJul 11, 2010
Don't people know Runescape was programmed in Java? Lol :P
azuvectorJul 12, 2010
Personally, I loathe how the Swing API is set up. Also, the popular Java IDEs(Eclipse, NetBeans.) are crash prone and buggy on Windows. (Auto-update breaking your IDE entirely? Always a good thing when you're in the middle of a project!)
C# is just leaps and bounds ahead of Java.
unitedatheismJul 12, 2010
Java is terrible for the end user. (fact)
And if you're planning on running java as something server-sided (like most corporations do) then it's even worst, no memory is enough for that!!
And java introduces a new layer of incompatibility, yes, we don't have OS dependencies (lie) or cpu dependencies (truth) but we do have virtual-machine-implementation dependency, and that counts a lot.
Also, java is always slower than native code, since you have to interpret it.
So besides people who are beginning to develop now, with their 6gb+ ram for a single application on their desktop (the common case for java developers), I see that almost all people who opted for java are not due to technical virtues, so I'm guessing here but that's gotta be that they've learned it in highschool and now are using it along.
People can hate me for that, and I know some people will, but that's just unbiased truth, all these things DO happen all the time! In fact, I may be paranoid here, but most of the time I have to run something java based I get the feeling that it's not going to work.
captainlandoJul 11, 2010
In my experience, Java is a great language to begin development of an app for a client. With more and more Macs out there, it's cross-platform capabilities are useful. It also plays nicely with databases and graphics (using JDBC & JOGL).Comment is buried, click here to see the rest.
rpgmakrJul 12, 2010
Idiot.
xaxxonJul 11, 2010
I love this line - it's exactly how I think about c# programmers, too!
hiring managers are increasingly having trouble finding talented software developers and C# programmers
Definitely mutually exclusive!Comment is buried, click here to see the rest.
jasoncoxJul 11, 2010
They are? I'm having a hard time finding a hiring manger that wants to hire a C# programmer, all they seem to be hiring for in my area is C++, JAVA and whatever the frak that IBM language is.
rmxzJul 11, 2010
Xasxxon said "talented" -- which he suggested is hard to find when combined with C#.
spuy767Jul 11, 2010
I never understood C#. It's just Java.net.
strangewillJul 11, 2010
I've seen a lot of .NET around here, not really sure if it's VB.NET (I know -shudder- but I've heard of companies doing this) or C#.
Closed AccountJul 12, 2010
C# is substantially more than Java.
spuy767Jul 13, 2010
C# is Java Syntax in a .NET language.
notsofastenerJul 11, 2010
Java: the Cobol of the 21st century
topcat5Jul 11, 2010
Bleh. Cobol has been very useful for 5-6 decades and continues that way even into the 21st. Java never even came close to this kind of success.
notsofastenerJul 11, 2010
I am merely suggesting that Java has become the same sort of accepted standard language for many large Enterprise systems just as Cobol was in its heyday. Cobol had wide acceptance because there were fewer choices in the early decades of business-scale computing. Java has far more competition these days, but it has still managed to gain a strong foothold in Enterprise systems. Java, in a sense, has become more successful in less time. While I am not a fan of Java, I acknowledge its contributions to the Enterprise and realize that it will be around perhaps longer than it is relevant (much like Cobol). Ultimately it is not languages that make computing and systems but instead a broader architecture defined by processes and flows. Although spoken and written human languages are important, they do not represent all forms of communication and interaction between persons. IT jobs will always be greater than the sum of the individual skills and languages because of this.
johnnysoftwareJul 11, 2010
Java has been around for fifteen years already outside of Sun. The language itself and the compilers are actually almost 20 years old because Sun R&D developed & polished it in-house before release.
Java has already addressed a lot of problems in advance of those problems rearing their heads and attacking other languages & platforms. Who has not heard of all the buffer overrun problems in Windows & IE and the serious computer hacking problems that result?
Java's core,j the Java Virtual Machine (JVM) which includes the bytecode interpreter and some low-level native code is written in C/C++. However, the bulk of what you get nowadays are class libraries and frameworks written in Java itself.
This system code, like Java application code, is protected from these archaic errors. So while some code is going to be vulnerable, it's a minority of it and at least every application developer is not exposing users to these antiquated risks.
COBOL has not made it as a big mainstream language throughout the micro/personal computer era that started in the late 1970s.
The languages that did catch on during this era , for a time, included: BASIC, assembly language, Pascal, C, C++, and Java. Of these languages, pretty much all of them but Java have shown serious problems in one or more areas: modularity/maintainability, lack of abstraction, lack of portability, etc. Microsoft even tried to ape Java's success with C#, so there is a clear example of where a BASIC, C, and C++ vendor felt like those languages were just not the right tool to get a lot of jobs done anymore.
Java is clearly going to be around more years. How many, is anyone's guess. It is heavily used in government, financial, medical, web, Internet, phone telecom, and cell phone industries. It is actively supported by Oracle, IBM, and many others. It looks like it has more years in it.
COBOL did not really fit the microcomputer desktop platform very well. it was heavily oriented towards ancient file storage and database format technologies. It was also incredibly verbose. Java has a core syntax that is simple yet powerful. When COBOL was dreamed up half a century ago, concepts like OOP and structured programming had not yet emerged.
The next languages will probably show escalated concern with: security, fraud/trickery, accountability, traceability/auditability, comprehensibility, distributed processing, user/institution/vendor assigned permissions, verifiability, validation, inference & deductive logic rules, and so forth.
Most of these Java already does but some of them were not original features of the language and its libraries but added on later as an after thought or never made official parts of the language/system.
scuba7183Jul 11, 2010
@JohnnySoftware - You are far too intelligent and even - minded for digg
lordmikeJul 12, 2010
Hah! Yes! A crappy language that will never die! Perfect analogy!
dotjonesJul 11, 2010
Java rocks!! Yes, the apps do suck, but what you can do with it on the server side to throw rich internet applications and create richly connected desktop applications make it the choice for enterprise. Anybody seen any real rich desktop or internet applications that didn't have some form of Java implemented lately?? Also, with frameworks like Google Web Toolkit, it's become even more popular. Yes, it is slow on the desktop, but I don't see a whole lot of people running out to purchase that killer desktop app lately....Comment is buried, click here to see the rest.
nanobeJul 11, 2010
"Anybody seen any real rich desktop or internet applications that didn't have some form of Java implemented lately??"
Let's see.. Wikipedia, Facebook, WordPress, Flickr, Digg, and Yahoo! all run mostly or entirely on PHP. YouTube and Reddit were written in Python. Most "rich" desktop applications I use were written in Python (in fact, I don't think I use any desktop applications that were written in Java anymore).
xkorbinJul 12, 2010
Facebook uses a c**ktail of languages and systems that you wouldn't f**king believe.
Erlang for chat etc., massive amounts of C extensions to every application and facet of PHP, memcached, etc imaginable.
Read the engineering blog and have your f**king mind blown.
javaroxJul 11, 2010
This account has been closed by the user
consterxnationJul 11, 2010
Geography matters. Have your friends looked outside of their area? Are they willing to relocate?
oriondrJul 11, 2010
The trouble is finding enough. The demand is so high for .NET developers supply can't keep up.
dotjonesJul 11, 2010
Yepper.... just about all the programming jobs are getting exported, which explains the great success of job shop services like oDesk. It's a pithy too! I lasted on oDesk for one hour as a shopper - I can't compete with Eastern Europe and Indian salary requirements. Then about a month ago hired a programmer on oDesk and was totally depressed with the quality. I ended up re-coding the cluster f)&( myself. The sad part is that most 'hiring managers' are not coders themselves and are strapped by budgets that require them to hire H-1B.
Closed AccountJul 11, 2010
I can't find a developer worth a s**t in Pittsburgh right now. I'd hire you on the spot if you ever interfaced with a database and know something about working in a team environment (source control, regression testing, etc).
superjasonJul 12, 2010
Ditto in Manitowoc, Wi. Obviously smaller, but same story.
texodoreJul 11, 2010
In Raleigh/Durham Research Triangle Park area, there are more .NET jobs than programmers. It wasn't as in demand in Oct/Nov last year but the market is ridiculous right now. This from talking to many recruiters and finding a job of my own.
stuffradioJul 11, 2010
Do they work with the XNA framework? Are they Game programmers for XBox 360/Zune? That's what the XNA Framework is built on... C#.
smacksawJul 11, 2010
Oh, if you only knew how the lawyers exploit H-1B...but it's better than outsourcing.
scamper22Jul 12, 2010
I know the disconnect, but believe me it is hard.
We have been looking for months.
We get thousands upon thousands of applications.
The good people are being drowned out.
You might be a great developer. All I can say... is... take your resume... put it next to an idiot developer's resume... and you can't tell the difference. Try to look at it from the hiring end.
We get Master's degree people who don't understand variable scope.
The last MASS group of good developers probably came 2003-2004... as they entered university before the crash. Ever since then, it's like a needle in a haystack. A few good developers, but thousands upon thousands of people who can't develop worth a damn.
And lord help you if you hire a few bad programmers. No good developer will want to join your team.
I don't know the answer... but don't blame the hiring end. We're swamped with resumes.
xkorbinJul 12, 2010
I totally f**king agree. I used to work for a software company (small, mind you) right under CTO.
I'd interview people with degrees who didn't know jack s**t.
When applying to a new company, I took all of the QA I would do from my standard interview process and put it in my cover letter. The interview, needless to say, was far more painless as I had answered every predictable question due to just having the experience with it.
scecilioJul 12, 2010
They teach Java in college. It's a nice language that has kept things simple. It shouldn't be difficult to find Java developers.
However, C# developers tend to be developed after college. C# is more difficult to pick up in entirety than Java, and I'm not sure that developers out of college are interested in learning a "proprietary" language from Microsoft. The perception is still out there that Java developers are better than C# developers.
The demand for .NET developers is indeed growing faster than the supply of well trained C# developers.
redditsfirstJul 11, 2010
This was on reddit a week ago.
You mad?
tehrabJul 11, 2010
That still doesn't explain what you are doing on digg today.
berobreoJul 11, 2010
Go back to reddit and shut F### OFF
iloveboobiesJul 11, 2010
Open Source!!!!!!
topcat5Jul 11, 2010
Corporations like Java because they believe it allows them turn programmers into commodities that can then be shifted to the lowest paid locations on the planet. The entire paradigm of a virtual execution environment makes this very easy. This coupled with 20 years of the schools churning out programming degrees based on this nonsense is the market is flooded with coders who lack the depth needed for real assignments. The few real software engineers have moved on to something else. This is why the the corporations can't find anyone now.
drmangrumJul 11, 2010
The fact you try to boil Java down to something simplistic and lacking depth means you have no idea the power of Java.
zephyrprimeJul 11, 2010
It's probably because of the rise in Droid development which is in java.
ryebryeJul 11, 2010
Wow, lots of Java hate brewing here on digg today.
darkshroudJul 11, 2010
Because Java Web apps while sometimes useful were a pain in the ass for a decade. I personally haven't touched a Java desktop program in 7 years because they performed so poorly. And don't even get me started on some of the various corporate software written in Java.
Java gets a bad rep from s**t software programs.
arana67Jul 11, 2010
Java....brewing......pun?
xkorbinJul 12, 2010
Java gets a bad rep from the JRE.
scecilioJul 12, 2010
McAffee Antivirus hates Java. Java developers hate McAffee.
morwyndJul 28, 2010
I don't hate Java, I feel sorry for it.
Java's like a friend who used to be in good shape, but keeps getting fatter and fatter, and harder to understand. And now he has cancer.
johnnysoftwareJul 11, 2010
Probably because aiming for security in the enterprise leads you back to creating applications that do not have serious flaws in them in the first place. Band-aids do not work so well for so long in computers at keeping infections out, as does having a healthy system in the first place.
dayal911Jul 11, 2010
Look at all the "programmers" with 3rd tier educations bitching about programming languages.
That's all 99% of you will ever be: trivial programmers arguing over trivial subjects.Comment is buried, click here to see the rest.
nicko68Jul 12, 2010
You sound like an idiot.
pimpdawgJul 12, 2010
And you will be outsourced to India. How's that college debt working out for you?
dayal911Jul 12, 2010
It's working out pretty well, actually. Some jobs won't be out sourced because the schools in India aren't advanced enough. That's a huge benefit of a research job. Drones aren't researchers.
Also, many programming jobs require security clearance and citizenship. Outsourcing won't help that.
Most small and mid sized companies don't outsource anyways.
The outsourcing dogma is highly overrated.
Comment is buried, click here to see the rest.
bugalouJul 11, 2010
Java - where your "Hello World" program requires at least 256MB of RAM.
libertarianslolJul 11, 2010
C - where your "Hello World" program can pose a serious security risk.
mrselfdestructJul 11, 2010
Who the f**k are you
sej7278Jul 12, 2010
Java programmers are a dime a dozen, quite literally if you hire from India.
GOOD Java programmers are indeed a rare breed, I think I've only ever met one, he actually had some idea of what performance and security meant, oddly enough he wanted to get out of Java programming!
random12345Jul 12, 2010
Really? Because I've been programming for over a decade and have my bachelors, and I've been doing Java for about 4 years now- but I've been passed up on by a few employers for entry level Java dev as "not enough experience". I guess its not that high demand if they're able to be picky.
Unfortunately, I'd say help desk and tech support is the higher demand as it has such a high turnover rate. I'm constantly contacted for those positions. Its such a thankless and low paying part of IT that no one wants to stay in it. Fields in IT that require you have experience and education (ie, software dev, security, database, etc)? Yea, those are ones that right now people take and stay in and pursue full careers with.
If employers are in short supply of the fields listed, then they need to stop being picky and stingy on salaries. The recession is on its way out- time to start investing and getting labor for what is ultimately still a bargain to them. I'll gladly fill these positions posted, but employers are still in the mindset that its a "buyers market" to them and they can hire experience/qualified/educated labor for college-student rates.
Closed AccountJul 12, 2010
I'm still really baffled that so many people in operations want SharePoint. Sigh, another useless proprietary certification here I come.
a1programmerJul 12, 2010
Only if you don't know what you're doing. Then you're not really a "Java" developer.
sej7278Jul 12, 2010
if you don't know what you're doing, then i'd say you're the typical java developer.....
a1programmerJul 12, 2010
You must be a typical Java developer. I'm not a "typical" one, but a good one. :D
Closed AccountJul 12, 2010
How can you be "bad" at Java? How can you screw that up? I have been developing in Java for about three years now and don't really see the issues that you have with the lower abstraction languages like C/C++ I love C++ not so much C though. It's not like you can write a bad pointer or anything like that...
scecilioJul 12, 2010
Read "Refactoring" written by Martin Fowler, specifically the "Bad Smells" chapter.
Bad code writing can be done in Java and C#.
floydmedi007Jul 22, 2010
I agree - you can't imagine how people can screw up Java code - how about unallocated objects and null pointer exceptions throughout the code
Closed AccountJul 12, 2010
Java has a very turbulent history. Java 15 years ago would be quite different from today's Java.
floydmedi007Jul 22, 2010
Java is making a come back - thanks to strong demand of IBM and Oracle products - and also attributable to the fact that many new paradigms driving the industry - like SOA and Cloud Computing make heavy use of Java products