Really? So there was a situation where this could have stopped 9/11 because we had a terrorist in custody, who we couldn't fully question without torturing? Dang.I had no idea.
Just a thought experement:Take a country that has been lorded over by restrictive people. Make the avg. pay/yr around $200. OK, now, have the most powerful country in the world come storming in and REWARDING people to the tune of 1000 or so PER person turned in as their enemies. Now, Guess how many innocents will be turned in. GO on. Just guess!Yah, I have less of a problem with rough interrogation techniques if I were positive that the people were not just turned over for cash. f**king makes me sick. What the hell were they thinking?! Money up front for people who were poor as can be and had to get by paying off the police to protect their families. OF COURSE they will turn in the people from outside their town and their neighbor who's land is better for grazing. Then they can have the money and the belongings!NOW, move on to Iraq. (the previous was Afghanistan) Put a bunch of kids in a city filled with hatred to BEGIN with and tell them to find the people killing others. Oh, and be sure to make it clear that they look like anyone on the streets. Now, kill 2 in their squad.WATCH OUT!! There will be mistakes costing people's lives.Yes, this is war. But at least try to understand that the innocents in the way will be destroyed too. That and we will make mistakes. We HAVE already! Not torturing will keep from torturing innocents. Hebius Corpus is(was) good enough for Americans, why not for the rest of the world? Or do you care?You are lucky. You don't live in Iraq of Afghanistan. They did not WANT to live there, be born there. They are victims of circumstance. Torturing the citizens of the country does not improve it.
Torture doesn't work without the threat of death behind it. (Haven't you all seen The Maltese Falcon!?) Threatening people with death is, in my mind anyway, torture. So this little demonstration has about as much to do with reality as a typical wrestling match.I am shocked, angry, and ashamed of what is being done in my name as an American Citizen. I am voting on Tuesday, and I'm voting the only way a rational person can. I'm voting each and every bastard out of office. I don't care if I have to vote for the "Lunatic" candidate or not. Its not about party anymore. Its about a caste of people who consider us sheep for shearing at tax time and as cannon fodder in wartime.I'll hold my nose and vote Democratic if I have to.I'll throw up a little in my mouth, but I'll vote Republican if it gets a Democrat out of office. Clean house completely. There's still time to save this country, still time to use the Ballot Box instead of the Ammo Box. But choices diminish as time goes on.Sorry I'm a little pissed right now.
Techie, can I ask you a question....Have you always been such a pussy ?No, Let me say it in a kinder, gentler way: Techie.... YOU ARE A f**kING PUSSY !.Oh, Now I feel better.Thanks for letting me get that off of my chest. ;)
First, I would like to say this. If I were to be tortured, this would be the way. It has the potential to go horribly wrong, yes, but realistically it's all about panic. Other torture methods are about nothing but pain.Having said that, I would like to state my official opinion on torture. It is, by its very definition, terrorism. The entire point of torture is to scare / coerce someone into telling you information. The fear of pain, drowning, etc. is sure to make some (if not most) crack. I'll give you that. But when fighting a war on terrorism, isn't it best to err on the side of NOT using terrorist tactics?
@tsteele93"If someone was holding your children... hostage and the police caught someone that they were very sure knew where your family member was located ...."I want good information and this tactic encourages lying. It is the wrong way to go about an interrogation if you are at all interested in accurate information. Any professional interrogator will tell you this. I object to these tactics not because they are inhumane, but because they are ineffective.
@tsteele93"If someone was holding your children... hostage and the police caught someone that they were very sure knew where your family member was located ...."Wow, that is a really bad analogy. First you are assuming that an islamic jihadist values his personal wellbeing over the jihad. The fact that these guys blow themselves up on a daily basis illustrates that they will die to bring a plan to fruition. The sort of criminal who would kidnap someone for ransom money probably lacks the same religious conviction to his cause and will therefore be more likely to give up info.Going beyond the morality of torture debate, is there even any actual proof that these methods have 'saved lived' other than bushco telling us that its so?
@tsteele93Would it still be ok if the police were wrong and picked up the wrong person? How many wrongly convicted people are there in prisons now? How many people have they released from Gitmo so far because they have determined that they are innocent and were wrongly picked up? I guess it is ok that we do this to those innocent people to get at the guilty? How many people are still in Gitmo even though they are innocent because they confessed to things they didn't do to make the torture stop? The reporter said that he was willing to tell them anything they wanted to make it stop. What if you are innocent and don't have anything to tell them? They will continue if you tell them everything you know (that you are innocent) so you make up stuff to get them to stop.It all sounds pretty crazy, unreliable and inhumane to me. Nothing like sinking to their level.
Then add in the fact that you KNOW when they finally get all the information they think you have they're going to cut your head off with a knife and send videos to your family.
So think of the most despicable thing you can think of doing to a man. now imagine that is done to someone in the united states.. if we captured the person who did it, should we retaliate even though it goes against everything we stand for? i see you flaming all over the forum how "I really would like to take anyone of you pussies out behind the wood shed and have a "Discussion" " and "No, you would have to have BALLS to FIGHT, No, All you do is bitch and complain". First of all, it's not only liberals who believe in the constitution, the declaration of independence, and basic human rights. Secondly, if we are going to revert to "an eye for an eye" that basically throws out our entire justice system, and reverts us to the times of Hamurabi.Just food for thought.
Closed AccountNov 5, 2006
Really? So there was a situation where this could have stopped 9/11 because we had a terrorist in custody, who we couldn't fully question without torturing? Dang.I had no idea.
chuymattNov 5, 2006
Just a thought experement:Take a country that has been lorded over by restrictive people. Make the avg. pay/yr around $200. OK, now, have the most powerful country in the world come storming in and REWARDING people to the tune of 1000 or so PER person turned in as their enemies. Now, Guess how many innocents will be turned in. GO on. Just guess!Yah, I have less of a problem with rough interrogation techniques if I were positive that the people were not just turned over for cash. f**king makes me sick. What the hell were they thinking?! Money up front for people who were poor as can be and had to get by paying off the police to protect their families. OF COURSE they will turn in the people from outside their town and their neighbor who's land is better for grazing. Then they can have the money and the belongings!NOW, move on to Iraq. (the previous was Afghanistan) Put a bunch of kids in a city filled with hatred to BEGIN with and tell them to find the people killing others. Oh, and be sure to make it clear that they look like anyone on the streets. Now, kill 2 in their squad.WATCH OUT!! There will be mistakes costing people's lives.Yes, this is war. But at least try to understand that the innocents in the way will be destroyed too. That and we will make mistakes. We HAVE already! Not torturing will keep from torturing innocents. Hebius Corpus is(was) good enough for Americans, why not for the rest of the world? Or do you care?You are lucky. You don't live in Iraq of Afghanistan. They did not WANT to live there, be born there. They are victims of circumstance. Torturing the citizens of the country does not improve it.
texasmojoNov 6, 2006
Torture doesn't work without the threat of death behind it. (Haven't you all seen The Maltese Falcon!?) Threatening people with death is, in my mind anyway, torture. So this little demonstration has about as much to do with reality as a typical wrestling match.I am shocked, angry, and ashamed of what is being done in my name as an American Citizen. I am voting on Tuesday, and I'm voting the only way a rational person can. I'm voting each and every bastard out of office. I don't care if I have to vote for the "Lunatic" candidate or not. Its not about party anymore. Its about a caste of people who consider us sheep for shearing at tax time and as cannon fodder in wartime.I'll hold my nose and vote Democratic if I have to.I'll throw up a little in my mouth, but I'll vote Republican if it gets a Democrat out of office. Clean house completely. There's still time to save this country, still time to use the Ballot Box instead of the Ammo Box. But choices diminish as time goes on.Sorry I'm a little pissed right now.
mattomanNov 6, 2006
Techie, can I ask you a question....Have you always been such a pussy ?No, Let me say it in a kinder, gentler way: Techie.... YOU ARE A f**kING PUSSY !.Oh, Now I feel better.Thanks for letting me get that off of my chest. ;)
drdabblesNov 6, 2006
First, I would like to say this. If I were to be tortured, this would be the way. It has the potential to go horribly wrong, yes, but realistically it's all about panic. Other torture methods are about nothing but pain.Having said that, I would like to state my official opinion on torture. It is, by its very definition, terrorism. The entire point of torture is to scare / coerce someone into telling you information. The fear of pain, drowning, etc. is sure to make some (if not most) crack. I'll give you that. But when fighting a war on terrorism, isn't it best to err on the side of NOT using terrorist tactics?
tblanchardNov 6, 2006
@tsteele93"If someone was holding your children... hostage and the police caught someone that they were very sure knew where your family member was located ...."I want good information and this tactic encourages lying. It is the wrong way to go about an interrogation if you are at all interested in accurate information. Any professional interrogator will tell you this. I object to these tactics not because they are inhumane, but because they are ineffective.
piznutNov 6, 2006
@tsteele93"If someone was holding your children... hostage and the police caught someone that they were very sure knew where your family member was located ...."Wow, that is a really bad analogy. First you are assuming that an islamic jihadist values his personal wellbeing over the jihad. The fact that these guys blow themselves up on a daily basis illustrates that they will die to bring a plan to fruition. The sort of criminal who would kidnap someone for ransom money probably lacks the same religious conviction to his cause and will therefore be more likely to give up info.Going beyond the morality of torture debate, is there even any actual proof that these methods have 'saved lived' other than bushco telling us that its so?
rprouseNov 6, 2006
@tsteele93Would it still be ok if the police were wrong and picked up the wrong person? How many wrongly convicted people are there in prisons now? How many people have they released from Gitmo so far because they have determined that they are innocent and were wrongly picked up? I guess it is ok that we do this to those innocent people to get at the guilty? How many people are still in Gitmo even though they are innocent because they confessed to things they didn't do to make the torture stop? The reporter said that he was willing to tell them anything they wanted to make it stop. What if you are innocent and don't have anything to tell them? They will continue if you tell them everything you know (that you are innocent) so you make up stuff to get them to stop.It all sounds pretty crazy, unreliable and inhumane to me. Nothing like sinking to their level.
shadusNov 7, 2006
Then add in the fact that you KNOW when they finally get all the information they think you have they're going to cut your head off with a knife and send videos to your family.
designerNov 1, 2007
waterboarding is not torture
maloventevilMay 19, 2009
So think of the most despicable thing you can think of doing to a man. now imagine that is done to someone in the united states.. if we captured the person who did it, should we retaliate even though it goes against everything we stand for? i see you flaming all over the forum how "I really would like to take anyone of you pussies out behind the wood shed and have a "Discussion" " and "No, you would have to have BALLS to FIGHT, No, All you do is bitch and complain". First of all, it's not only liberals who believe in the constitution, the declaration of independence, and basic human rights. Secondly, if we are going to revert to "an eye for an eye" that basically throws out our entire justice system, and reverts us to the times of Hamurabi.Just food for thought.
otterpMay 19, 2009
@punkrawkintrev So you believe in torturing our citizens? Sick.