nytimes.com— Theodore B. Olson, a conservative legal star, hopes to reshape the legal and social landscape, fighting a gay marriage ban in California.
Aug 19, 2009View in Crawl 4
What an incredibly futile case, to try to resurrect the dead California gay marriage issue. The voters killed it, and those were just the ones that cared enough to get out and vote, while nearly everyone who thought it was a good idea did. Just try to send it to the voters again and you'll see just how many think it's an afront. Then again, maybe it still needs to be put to bed once and for all, even if the court tries to legislate from the bench.It's not specifically defined in the Constitution or Bill of Rights because it's an inherent civil union, as it was in Egyptian times, Roman times, Medieval times, and pretty much any other time in the whole of human history (yes, I'm sure one can dredge up an exception to support any cause).What's next? Pedophiles should have the right to marry children? After all, they were born with a preference for a girl/boy, not a man/woman. And you can't fight nature, can you?
I for one do not understand the twisted bigoted misery that one church crazy fool after another uses to defend their positions on this.It’s clearly a civil rights issue and marriage is clearly a civil union, a contract between two people, any two and no one else’s business period.I'll give any mass of dumb assed un-Christian bigots and intolerant imbeciles the right to say you can't marry in our church. That’s fine, stay to yourselves with that crap, post it on the door...”Free Tea and Hate served here 7 days a week”...but to take your crippled ignorance and try to shove it on the rest of the country with your “Christian Nation”... (Which I call the Christian Reich)...that’s bulls**t, clear as day...well then....I say go f**k yourselves.I stand with my fellow American citizens, gay or any other damn thing, that it doesn’t fit your stupidity or your dark age’s religious views, I care not a whit.What you do isn’t Christianity, its ignorance and bigotry plain and simple.And here is another point. You fuknuts preaching anti-gay politics’ from your pulpits are breaking the law and acting as PACS. I am 120% behind sending the IRS into each and every one of these hell holes this crap comes from and yanking their tax exemptions…You want to be a political action group because you think your so called “Christianity” is better then anyone else’s fine, but you will be made to follow the law.So remove the tax exemptions of these loudmouthed horses asses pretending to speak for “God” by being ignorant bigots and better yet…asset forfeiture for everything they have going all the way back to the first day the opened their yaps…that would slow them down a bit I guess.In the meantime I think this lawyer is one fine man (and yes it hurts to say that about a lawyer) and I admire his courage and conviction to take this case and put his mind and life to winning it.One last…I don’t for the life of me understand how any minority in the world can stand shoulder to shoulder with the bigots on this. Christian or not…can’t you see that this is no different then the crap that came out of all those “Churches” and out of all the liars mouths when it was making excuses for slavery, segregation, men only voting, Jim Crow laws etc etc etc…For cripes sake, wake up, you have been conned into standing with intolerant bigots, and they are nothing but ordinary stupid hateful ignorant bigots, whether hiding behind the bible or not, and they are on the wrong side of history.I mean come on…So grandpa what did you do in the civil rights era?…Well sonny I helped fight that civil rights nonsense because a preacher told me it was Gods will that our people stay in the mud and beneath the masters house because after all, Preachers speak for God and God says we are less then a full person. Preacher told me this was true…and no way can a preacher be wrong or lie now is there?Or Mom, why can’t I vote again? Well daughter of mine, the preacher explained that, the bible says “MAN” must be the head and the constitution clearly says all “MEN” so there ya go, women don’t count…Pfffft, wake up already, please.
bigterguy, are you arguing that because there will always be people who "game the system" that gays and lesbians should be deprived of their civil rights?On another level, you miss my point. I was arguing against using ancient precedent to support depriving people of their civil rights. Conservative Christians like to pretend that they're just "following precedent" when they play the bigotry card. It doesn't work, as I've tried to demonstrate.According to the Constitution, we all have the same rights. ALL. That means gays and lesbians as well. What one religion or another might think about it, what the population of one state or another might think about it, is irrelevant. These rights are guaranteed by the Constitution. Two people who love each other, whatever their sex or sexual orientation, should be able to be married and enjoy the same benefits of marriage any other person does. Your notion that if we grant same-sex marriage rights will lead to all of Detroit getting married has little more to recommend it than the other fellow's claim that pedophiles will then be allowed to marry children.
News flash for you--neither the voters, nor the legislature, have the right to pass a law that violates a fundamental right. Here's a thought experiment--what if a majority in your state voted to outlaw marriage entirely? Or to prevent, say, people of Irish heritage, from marrying? Do you think that would stand?The original California Supreme Court case that permitted same-sex marriage correctly and solidly grounded the decision in Loving v. Virginia, the U.S. Supreme Court case mentioned in this article that struck down a law prohibiting interracial marriage. In order to deny someone a fundamental right, the state must show a compelling state interest. Kindly list even one compelling state interest in preventing gays from marrying each other.
I won't try to argue a legal point on a simple comment board, except to say that you're in luck - you've had the "fundamental right" to marry the person of your choice all along! If you're a man, there are some 2 billion women out there just waiting for someone like you; and if you're a woman, vice versa. Just walk into your local courthouse with one anytime during business hours. If that's not your personal preference, well, that's really not my problem, or that of the government, now is it?Let me also say that I mean no offence to you if your are gay. Just that you shouldn't try to bend the rules of society to suit your personal preferences.
Sorry, not my job to debate why the mores reflected by societal law should be changed, Alheithinn. That responsibility, assuming you are this passionate in other circles, rests squarely on your shoulders.No, I don't listen to talk radio or listen to or read Christian propoganda, but if it makes you feel better to stereotype me, go right ahead. Sure, hedonism has always been an ever-present part of human nature; fortunately for a millenia most people had a healthy enough sense of shame to keep it private.So far your vehement, establishment-hating rhetoric has done nothing to futher your apparent cause. Oh, and as to the "values system" that you claim to hold, despite popular contemporary belief, a true values system must be grounded in something beyond self serving interest.
Wow, sludgeheap. You are really dealing with some issues here - examining facts not being among them unfortunately. Establishment-hating rhetoric, eh? You like to throw out a lot of hatred and then claim that hatred belongs to me, but I think it's clear to anyone who looks at our respective posts who truly has the problem here.Oh, and by the way, our country was not founded on "the Christian values of our forefathers". Many of them were Deists, not Christian. Some of them despised Christianity. And for values, most of those come from Greece and Rome, not Israel, including the idea of democracy (absent in ancient Israel but originating in Pagan Greece) and individual human rights (also absent in ancient Israel where you had to conform or die). Again, if you want to debate, come equipped. Right now it's like arguing with someone limited to a Sunday school education.
sludgeheapAug 19, 2009
What an incredibly futile case, to try to resurrect the dead California gay marriage issue. The voters killed it, and those were just the ones that cared enough to get out and vote, while nearly everyone who thought it was a good idea did. Just try to send it to the voters again and you'll see just how many think it's an afront. Then again, maybe it still needs to be put to bed once and for all, even if the court tries to legislate from the bench.It's not specifically defined in the Constitution or Bill of Rights because it's an inherent civil union, as it was in Egyptian times, Roman times, Medieval times, and pretty much any other time in the whole of human history (yes, I'm sure one can dredge up an exception to support any cause).What's next? Pedophiles should have the right to marry children? After all, they were born with a preference for a girl/boy, not a man/woman. And you can't fight nature, can you?
Closed AccountAug 19, 2009
I for one do not understand the twisted bigoted misery that one church crazy fool after another uses to defend their positions on this.It’s clearly a civil rights issue and marriage is clearly a civil union, a contract between two people, any two and no one else’s business period.I'll give any mass of dumb assed un-Christian bigots and intolerant imbeciles the right to say you can't marry in our church. That’s fine, stay to yourselves with that crap, post it on the door...”Free Tea and Hate served here 7 days a week”...but to take your crippled ignorance and try to shove it on the rest of the country with your “Christian Nation”... (Which I call the Christian Reich)...that’s bulls**t, clear as day...well then....I say go f**k yourselves.I stand with my fellow American citizens, gay or any other damn thing, that it doesn’t fit your stupidity or your dark age’s religious views, I care not a whit.What you do isn’t Christianity, its ignorance and bigotry plain and simple.And here is another point. You fuknuts preaching anti-gay politics’ from your pulpits are breaking the law and acting as PACS. I am 120% behind sending the IRS into each and every one of these hell holes this crap comes from and yanking their tax exemptions…You want to be a political action group because you think your so called “Christianity” is better then anyone else’s fine, but you will be made to follow the law.So remove the tax exemptions of these loudmouthed horses asses pretending to speak for “God” by being ignorant bigots and better yet…asset forfeiture for everything they have going all the way back to the first day the opened their yaps…that would slow them down a bit I guess.In the meantime I think this lawyer is one fine man (and yes it hurts to say that about a lawyer) and I admire his courage and conviction to take this case and put his mind and life to winning it.One last…I don’t for the life of me understand how any minority in the world can stand shoulder to shoulder with the bigots on this. Christian or not…can’t you see that this is no different then the crap that came out of all those “Churches” and out of all the liars mouths when it was making excuses for slavery, segregation, men only voting, Jim Crow laws etc etc etc…For cripes sake, wake up, you have been conned into standing with intolerant bigots, and they are nothing but ordinary stupid hateful ignorant bigots, whether hiding behind the bible or not, and they are on the wrong side of history.I mean come on…So grandpa what did you do in the civil rights era?…Well sonny I helped fight that civil rights nonsense because a preacher told me it was Gods will that our people stay in the mud and beneath the masters house because after all, Preachers speak for God and God says we are less then a full person. Preacher told me this was true…and no way can a preacher be wrong or lie now is there?Or Mom, why can’t I vote again? Well daughter of mine, the preacher explained that, the bible says “MAN” must be the head and the constitution clearly says all “MEN” so there ya go, women don’t count…Pfffft, wake up already, please.
alheithinnAug 20, 2009
bigterguy, are you arguing that because there will always be people who "game the system" that gays and lesbians should be deprived of their civil rights?On another level, you miss my point. I was arguing against using ancient precedent to support depriving people of their civil rights. Conservative Christians like to pretend that they're just "following precedent" when they play the bigotry card. It doesn't work, as I've tried to demonstrate.According to the Constitution, we all have the same rights. ALL. That means gays and lesbians as well. What one religion or another might think about it, what the population of one state or another might think about it, is irrelevant. These rights are guaranteed by the Constitution. Two people who love each other, whatever their sex or sexual orientation, should be able to be married and enjoy the same benefits of marriage any other person does. Your notion that if we grant same-sex marriage rights will lead to all of Detroit getting married has little more to recommend it than the other fellow's claim that pedophiles will then be allowed to marry children.
covenAug 20, 2009
Children can't give legal consent. logic fail
seminarianAug 23, 2009
News flash for you--neither the voters, nor the legislature, have the right to pass a law that violates a fundamental right. Here's a thought experiment--what if a majority in your state voted to outlaw marriage entirely? Or to prevent, say, people of Irish heritage, from marrying? Do you think that would stand?The original California Supreme Court case that permitted same-sex marriage correctly and solidly grounded the decision in Loving v. Virginia, the U.S. Supreme Court case mentioned in this article that struck down a law prohibiting interracial marriage. In order to deny someone a fundamental right, the state must show a compelling state interest. Kindly list even one compelling state interest in preventing gays from marrying each other.
sludgeheapAug 23, 2009
I won't try to argue a legal point on a simple comment board, except to say that you're in luck - you've had the "fundamental right" to marry the person of your choice all along! If you're a man, there are some 2 billion women out there just waiting for someone like you; and if you're a woman, vice versa. Just walk into your local courthouse with one anytime during business hours. If that's not your personal preference, well, that's really not my problem, or that of the government, now is it?Let me also say that I mean no offence to you if your are gay. Just that you shouldn't try to bend the rules of society to suit your personal preferences.
sludgeheapAug 24, 2009
Sorry, not my job to debate why the mores reflected by societal law should be changed, Alheithinn. That responsibility, assuming you are this passionate in other circles, rests squarely on your shoulders.No, I don't listen to talk radio or listen to or read Christian propoganda, but if it makes you feel better to stereotype me, go right ahead. Sure, hedonism has always been an ever-present part of human nature; fortunately for a millenia most people had a healthy enough sense of shame to keep it private.So far your vehement, establishment-hating rhetoric has done nothing to futher your apparent cause. Oh, and as to the "values system" that you claim to hold, despite popular contemporary belief, a true values system must be grounded in something beyond self serving interest.
alheithinnAug 25, 2009
Wow, sludgeheap. You are really dealing with some issues here - examining facts not being among them unfortunately. Establishment-hating rhetoric, eh? You like to throw out a lot of hatred and then claim that hatred belongs to me, but I think it's clear to anyone who looks at our respective posts who truly has the problem here.Oh, and by the way, our country was not founded on "the Christian values of our forefathers". Many of them were Deists, not Christian. Some of them despised Christianity. And for values, most of those come from Greece and Rome, not Israel, including the idea of democracy (absent in ancient Israel but originating in Pagan Greece) and individual human rights (also absent in ancient Israel where you had to conform or die). Again, if you want to debate, come equipped. Right now it's like arguing with someone limited to a Sunday school education.