@rogerstrongThank you for the links; I am familiar with them; As I researched both sides of the argument before coming to a conclusion.Dr. Griffith's arguments are the solid ones.Here is a sumary of his latest book:, "Debunking 9/11 Debunking", where "Griffin destroys the credibility of the National Institute of Standards and Technology (NIST) and Popular Mechanics reports, annihilates his critics, and proves himself to be a better scientist and engineer than the defenders of the official story."Dr Paul Craig<a class="user" href="http://www.vdare.com/roberts/070326_evidence.htm">http://www.vdare.com/roberts/070326_evidence.htm</a>
@theblueprintIf you want a PHD in Physics endorsing and recommending Griffith's sound arguments here it is:"But there IS one way that all 250 some columns could have lost all strength simultaneously. It's called CONTROLLED DEMOLITION.David Ray Griffin has web-published a splendid, highly footnoted account of “The Destruction of the World Trade Center: Why the Official Account Cannot Be True”:<a class="user" href="http://911review.com/articles/griffin/nyc1.html#multipleevidence">http://911review.com/articles/griffin/nyc1.html#multipleevidence</a>This scholarly work, rich in eyewitness accounts, includes 11 separate pieces of evidence that the World Trade Center towers 1, 2, and 7 were brought down by explosives.I have a feeling that most physicists never completely outgrow their propensity for "hand waving" and that in moments of hubris some may even resort to "proofs by intimidation." But in the end what keeps us honest is our need to publish in peer-reviewed journals.Therefore, I implore my fellow physicists and engineers who may have the time, expertise, and (ideally) supercomputer access to get to work on the physics of the World Trade Center collapses and publish their findings in refereed journals like, say, the Journal of Applied Physics.The issue of knowing who was really behind the 9/11 attacks is of paramount importance to the future of our country, because the “official” assumption that it was the work of 19 Arab amateurs (1) does not match the available facts and (2) has led directly to the deplorable Patriot Act, the illegal Iraq war, NSA spying on ordinary Americans, repudiation of the Geneva Conventions, and the repeal of habeas corpus (a fundamental point of law that has been with us since the signing of the Magna Carta in 1215).Surely these Orwellian consequences of public ignorance constitute more than sufficient motivation for any patriotic American physicist or engineer to join the search for 9/11 Truth!"<a class="user" href="http://impactglassman.blogspot.com/">http://impactglassman.blogspot.com/</a>by Dr. David L Griscom Location: San Carlos, Sonora, MX Ph.D. in Physics, Brown University, 1966. Fellow, American Physical Society. Research physicist at Naval Research Laboratory (NRL), Washington, DC, 1967-2001. Officially credited with largest number of papers (5) by any author on list of 100 most cited articles authored at NRL between 1973 and 1988. 185 total articles now in print. Fulbright-García Robles Fellow at Universidad Nacional Autónoma de México 1997. Invited Professor 2000-2004: Universités de Paris-6&7, Lyon-1, et St-Etienne (France) and Tokyo Institute of Technology. Adjunct Professor of Materials Science & Engineering, University of Arizona 2004-2005.
eras:>The depth of this counter argument, gave me a good laugh.Me too. I especially like the idea that the towers fell straight down even though the whole base chunk of WTC 7 was blown out. Ultimately, the screwloosechange site really helps destroy these false claims -- with pictures. OOoooh, you said the COUNTERargument. Well, sorry for laughing at your expense.
@bigdavediodeIts all right. At least you eventually got the message.I hope the same thing happens with the truth about 9-11.In the meanwhile if you read more carefully, you will notice that Griffith never argues that the three buildings were demolished in the same way.The towers were demolished to simulate colapse from top down.WTC 7 was simple classic demolition; to which we are not supposed to pay attention. That is why it is not even mentioned in the Nist Report. But of course, since the screwloosechange argument is pure straw man, you will never learned these facts from it or give Griffith's argument the careful reading and serious consideration it deserves in order to present a counter argument able to generate something more than a good laugh.
dbcooper: "troofers. So gullible. So full of hate. So ignorant. Such pitiful little children."More useless ad hominems and no facts from an intellectually challenged disinformationalist. Is that the best you can do? YOU are pitiful.
@bigdavediode>>For effect? We do not know the answer to that question.>Of course you don't, because it doesn't make any sense to wait an hour before dropping the buildings. Admit it, it makes no sense.Sense or no sense the reason we do not have an answer to that question is that there has not been an independent investigation of the event: Read the Book by Griffith: The 9/11 Commission Report: Omissions and Distortions - <a class="user" href="http://www.e-thepeople.org/article/39493/view?viewtype=best&skip=0">http://www.e-thepeople.org/article/39493/view?viewtype=best&skip=0</a>>You know what's impossible? Getting a building to collapse using pre-wired demolition charges (thousands of pounds of demolition charges) to drop at EXACTLY the floors that the plane hit on.Computer technology today allows for remote precise detonation of explosives in any sequencial form. The perpetrators only needed a secure location (lets say WTC7) to observe developments and adjust the detonation sequence. There is nothing impossible about this.Read here how it can be done and answers to FAQ concerning this possibility<a class="user" href="http://911research.wtc7.net/faq/demolition.html">http://911research.wtc7.net/faq/demolition.html</a>>You know what's also impossible? Have a building wired with thousands of pounds of demolition charges and have no unexploded ordinance found at the scene.If the remains had been secured for thorough investigation; we could talk about what was or not found. After muddled pseudo-investigations and quick disposal of the remains we can only guess at what was there and why the evidence was quickly eliminated.<a class="user" href="http://911research.wtc7.net/post911/probes.html">http://911research.wtc7.net/post911/probes.html</a>>>It was a top down demolition>And this is also wildly untrue, anyone who watches the video can see the buildings drop not from the top, but around floor 80. You are denying reality, you are denying the video and you are denying the witnesses."Top down" means the unusual way the towers were detonated to simulate collapse. Check the evidence and see who is denying reality.Reality shows: -that concrete buildings do not turn to dust by gravity alone,-steel, when heated, does not suddenly buckle or break.-fire does not produce collapse of a steel building mimicking what only happens by precisely placed explosives by experts.-the rubble falling inside the building?s profile "falls" at the same speed as the rubble outside; which cannot happen by forces of nature alone.-massive steel box columns do not suddenly loose their strenght and disappear.I could go on and on, but read the article and deal with the actual evidence, and then we can talk about who is denying reality.
erasmocbcApr 9, 2007Submitter
@rogerstrongThank you for the links; I am familiar with them; As I researched both sides of the argument before coming to a conclusion.Dr. Griffith's arguments are the solid ones.Here is a sumary of his latest book:, "Debunking 9/11 Debunking", where "Griffin destroys the credibility of the National Institute of Standards and Technology (NIST) and Popular Mechanics reports, annihilates his critics, and proves himself to be a better scientist and engineer than the defenders of the official story."Dr Paul Craig<a class="user" href="http://www.vdare.com/roberts/070326_evidence.htm">http://www.vdare.com/roberts/070326_evidence.htm</a>
theblueprintApr 9, 2007
Dr. David Ray Griffin is a doctor of Philosophy, not Physics or Engineering. After reading his conclusion, he's not an English doctorate either.
erasmocbcApr 9, 2007Submitter
@theblueprintIf you want a PHD in Physics endorsing and recommending Griffith's sound arguments here it is:"But there IS one way that all 250 some columns could have lost all strength simultaneously. It's called CONTROLLED DEMOLITION.David Ray Griffin has web-published a splendid, highly footnoted account of “The Destruction of the World Trade Center: Why the Official Account Cannot Be True”:<a class="user" href="http://911review.com/articles/griffin/nyc1.html#multipleevidence">http://911review.com/articles/griffin/nyc1.html#multipleevidence</a>This scholarly work, rich in eyewitness accounts, includes 11 separate pieces of evidence that the World Trade Center towers 1, 2, and 7 were brought down by explosives.I have a feeling that most physicists never completely outgrow their propensity for "hand waving" and that in moments of hubris some may even resort to "proofs by intimidation." But in the end what keeps us honest is our need to publish in peer-reviewed journals.Therefore, I implore my fellow physicists and engineers who may have the time, expertise, and (ideally) supercomputer access to get to work on the physics of the World Trade Center collapses and publish their findings in refereed journals like, say, the Journal of Applied Physics.The issue of knowing who was really behind the 9/11 attacks is of paramount importance to the future of our country, because the “official” assumption that it was the work of 19 Arab amateurs (1) does not match the available facts and (2) has led directly to the deplorable Patriot Act, the illegal Iraq war, NSA spying on ordinary Americans, repudiation of the Geneva Conventions, and the repeal of habeas corpus (a fundamental point of law that has been with us since the signing of the Magna Carta in 1215).Surely these Orwellian consequences of public ignorance constitute more than sufficient motivation for any patriotic American physicist or engineer to join the search for 9/11 Truth!"<a class="user" href="http://impactglassman.blogspot.com/">http://impactglassman.blogspot.com/</a>by Dr. David L Griscom Location: San Carlos, Sonora, MX Ph.D. in Physics, Brown University, 1966. Fellow, American Physical Society. Research physicist at Naval Research Laboratory (NRL), Washington, DC, 1967-2001. Officially credited with largest number of papers (5) by any author on list of 100 most cited articles authored at NRL between 1973 and 1988. 185 total articles now in print. Fulbright-García Robles Fellow at Universidad Nacional Autónoma de México 1997. Invited Professor 2000-2004: Universités de Paris-6&7, Lyon-1, et St-Etienne (France) and Tokyo Institute of Technology. Adjunct Professor of Materials Science & Engineering, University of Arizona 2004-2005.
Closed AccountApr 10, 2007
eras:All you need to know about David Ray ('the towers fell straight down' and 'debris was ejected 600 feet out') Griffin is here: <a class="user" href="http://screwloosechange.blogspot.com/search/label/David%20Ray%20Griffin">http://screwloosechange.blogspot.com/search/label/David%20Ray%20Griffin</a>
Closed AccountApr 10, 2007
eras:>The depth of this counter argument, gave me a good laugh.Me too. I especially like the idea that the towers fell straight down even though the whole base chunk of WTC 7 was blown out. Ultimately, the screwloosechange site really helps destroy these false claims -- with pictures. OOoooh, you said the COUNTERargument. Well, sorry for laughing at your expense.
erasmocbcApr 10, 2007Submitter
@bigdavediodeIts all right. At least you eventually got the message.I hope the same thing happens with the truth about 9-11.In the meanwhile if you read more carefully, you will notice that Griffith never argues that the three buildings were demolished in the same way.The towers were demolished to simulate colapse from top down.WTC 7 was simple classic demolition; to which we are not supposed to pay attention. That is why it is not even mentioned in the Nist Report. But of course, since the screwloosechange argument is pure straw man, you will never learned these facts from it or give Griffith's argument the careful reading and serious consideration it deserves in order to present a counter argument able to generate something more than a good laugh.
mreguyApr 11, 2007
dbcooper: "troofers. So gullible. So full of hate. So ignorant. Such pitiful little children."More useless ad hominems and no facts from an intellectually challenged disinformationalist. Is that the best you can do? YOU are pitiful.
erasmocbcApr 12, 2007Submitter
@bigdavediode>>For effect? We do not know the answer to that question.>Of course you don't, because it doesn't make any sense to wait an hour before dropping the buildings. Admit it, it makes no sense.Sense or no sense the reason we do not have an answer to that question is that there has not been an independent investigation of the event: Read the Book by Griffith: The 9/11 Commission Report: Omissions and Distortions - <a class="user" href="http://www.e-thepeople.org/article/39493/view?viewtype=best&skip=0">http://www.e-thepeople.org/article/39493/view?viewtype=best&skip=0</a>>You know what's impossible? Getting a building to collapse using pre-wired demolition charges (thousands of pounds of demolition charges) to drop at EXACTLY the floors that the plane hit on.Computer technology today allows for remote precise detonation of explosives in any sequencial form. The perpetrators only needed a secure location (lets say WTC7) to observe developments and adjust the detonation sequence. There is nothing impossible about this.Read here how it can be done and answers to FAQ concerning this possibility<a class="user" href="http://911research.wtc7.net/faq/demolition.html">http://911research.wtc7.net/faq/demolition.html</a>>You know what's also impossible? Have a building wired with thousands of pounds of demolition charges and have no unexploded ordinance found at the scene.If the remains had been secured for thorough investigation; we could talk about what was or not found. After muddled pseudo-investigations and quick disposal of the remains we can only guess at what was there and why the evidence was quickly eliminated.<a class="user" href="http://911research.wtc7.net/post911/probes.html">http://911research.wtc7.net/post911/probes.html</a>>>It was a top down demolition>And this is also wildly untrue, anyone who watches the video can see the buildings drop not from the top, but around floor 80. You are denying reality, you are denying the video and you are denying the witnesses."Top down" means the unusual way the towers were detonated to simulate collapse. Check the evidence and see who is denying reality.Reality shows: -that concrete buildings do not turn to dust by gravity alone,-steel, when heated, does not suddenly buckle or break.-fire does not produce collapse of a steel building mimicking what only happens by precisely placed explosives by experts.-the rubble falling inside the building?s profile "falls" at the same speed as the rubble outside; which cannot happen by forces of nature alone.-massive steel box columns do not suddenly loose their strenght and disappear.I could go on and on, but read the article and deal with the actual evidence, and then we can talk about who is denying reality.
cavepersonMay 1, 2007
Emailed to 2500 opinion-shapers weekly~~~~~~~~~~~~~~:::::::::::::::::::::::::::: S O M E O F T H E A B O V E N E W S ====================::::::::::::::::::::::~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~::::::::::::Fail not in your function of loving in aloveless place made out of darkness and deceit, for thus are darkness and deceitundone. --A Course In Miracles===================================::::::: Please post and forward as appropriate++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++Barrett Heading to Morocco to Apprehend Suicide Hijacker By GeorgeWashington Created 2007-04-27 18:34 An email from Kevin Barrett.(Press Conference outside the office of Wisconsin Rep. Steve Nass, Room 12 West State Capitol, Madison, Wisconsin, Thursday, May 3rd, 10:30 a.m.)Dr. Kevin Barrett, the University of Wisconsin lecturer who was denied a tenure-track position at the University of Wisconsin-Whitewater, hounded by Steve Nass and 61 state legislators, and handed a death threat by Bill O’Reilly—all because of his political opinions and religious identity—has opted for a new career: Fugitive Recovery Agent specializing in the apprehension of still-living 9/11 suicide hijackers. Dr. Barrett will be traveling to Morocco May 6th to apprehend accused 9/11 hijacker Waleed al-Shehri, who, after allegedly stabbing a stewardess on a flight that crashed into the World Trade Center, returned to Casablanca and has reportedly been working as a pilot there ever since....Source URL:<a class="user" href="http://www.911blogger.com/node/8162">http://www.911blogger.com/node/8162</a> ======================================================Progress Towards Impeachment Is Going Well By Rob KallImpeachment will happen step by step. The things that have to happen have been falling into place as they should<a class="user" href="http://www.opednews.com/articles/opedne_rob_kall_070427_progress_towards_imp.htm">http://www.opednews.com/articles/opedne_rob_kall_070427_progress_towards_imp.htm</a>=======================================================9/11 Revisited is currently the # 3 most watched video on google video!Please help keep it in the top 10 by posting a link or putting the video on your myspace page and/or website.<a class="user" href="http://www.911revisited.com/video.html">http://www.911revisited.com/video.html</a> Source URL:<a class="user" href="http://www.911blogger.com/node/8104">http://www.911blogger.com/node/8104</a>======================================================HERO OF 9/11 BREAKS INTO MAINSTREAM NEWSWilliam Rodriguez Hits the Mainstream By GeorgeWashington Created 2007-04-24 12:57 Email from Kevin Barrett of Mujca [1].William Rodriguez's real story - the story of the explosions he witnessed that day - was never reported in the US mainstream media...until now.Thanks to the dozens of people who kicked in with time, energy and money to bring William Rodriguez on his first Midwest speaking tour, William is now on the record, in the US mainstream media, describing the explosions he witnessed while performing heroic rescue work on September 11th, 2001.<a class="user" href="http://www.leadertelegram.com/story.asp?id=82015">http://www.leadertelegram.com/story.asp?id=82015</a> [2]<a class="user" href="http://www.weau.com/news/headlines">http://www.weau.com/news/headlines</a> [3]<a class="user" href="http://www.weau.com/news13noonand5/headlines/743082.html">http://www.weau.com/news13noonand5/headlines/743082.html</a> [4]<a class="user" href="http://badgerherald.com/news/2007/04/23/trade_center_custodi.php">http://badgerherald.com/news/2007/04/23/trade_center_custodi.php</a> [5]<a class="user" href="http://www.dailycardinal.com/news/world-trade-center-custodian-tells-her...">http://www.dailycardinal.com/news/world-trade-center-custodian-tells-her...</a> [6]<a class="user" href="http://www.pjstar.com/stories/042307/TRI_BD10AM9S.060.php">http://www.pjstar.com/stories/042307/TRI_BD10AM9S.060.php</a> [7]"They always left the part about explosions out," Rodriguez says of previous mainstream US media coverage of his story. At first he thought this was because they had to convey the story in just a few minutes or paragraphs. But when the 9/11 Commission made Rodriguez testify in secret and then sealed that testimony, while refusing to hear more than a dozen corroborating witnesses, he realized that the government and mainstream media were hell-bent on covering up the truth. (For a summary of some of the massive eyewitness testimony about the controlled demolition of the World Trade Center, see Explosive Testimony: Revelations about the Twin Towers in the 9/11 Oral Histories, By Dr. David Ray Griffin.)For more information on William Rodriguez, see <a class="user" href="http://911keymaster.com">http://911keymaster.com</a> [8]Source Article: <a class="user" href="http://www.911blogger.com/node/8093">http://www.911blogger.com/node/8093</a> ====================================================== 9/11 TRUTH PLAYS IN PEORIA Christian Pastor’s Positive Review of David Ray Griffen’s Work By Student Created 2007-04-22 13:30 "Exerpt from “Ministering to all kinds of disasters” by Rev. Alphonso Lyons, pastor of Mount Zion Baptist Church of Peoria, Ill., in the Saturday, April 21, 2007 on-line edition of the Peoria Journal Star:"'The New Pearl Harbor' was written by David Ray Griffin, a Christian and retired professor from Claremont Theological Seminary. Griffin embraces process theology, modernity and postmodernity. Briefly, Griffin suggests that the Sept. 11, 2001, terrorist twin-tower destruction was in fact not a terrorist-led plot, but one engineered by American entities. "Griffin documents evidence that indicates that each of the hijacked airplanes did not have the force to cause enough temperature to melt the respective towers and an adjacent building. He claims New York firefighter witnesses say that a series of purposefully charged implosions beginning below the ground floors moving upward actually brought the buildings down. "The author suggests that a new Pearl Harbor was sought as a rallying force to unite the country. "Religious implication: Griffin requests that Christians reassess and reinvestigate this painfully tragic event. How valuable is human life when it comes to achieving our goals and objectives of which money and power are major?...The Rev. ALPHONSO LYONS is pastor of Mount Zion Baptist Church, 305 S. Madison Park Terrace, Peoria. You can write to him in care of the Journal Star, 1 News Plaza, Peoria, IL 61643, send a fax to 686-3296 or send e-mail to fv@pjstar.com Source URLs:<a class="user" href="http://www.911blogger.com/node/8028">http://www.911blogger.com/node/8028</a> <a class="user" href="http://www.pjstar.com/stories/042107/ALP_BCVKLDG4.040.php">http://www.pjstar.com/stories/042107/ALP_BCVKLDG4.040.php</a>======================================================Photographer catches ACTOR DANIEL SUNJATA FLASHING"9/11 Was an Inside Job" !<a class="user" href="http://www.911blogger.com/node/7885">http://www.911blogger.com/node/7885</a> ======================================================$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ D E C E P T I O N D O L L A R S Let Shy Persons Get Up And DO What Needs To Be Done"I KIND OF FEEL LIKE JOHNNY APPLESEED."Two things about me: 1) I'm a shy person and 2) I know our beloved country has been taken over by corrupt leaders. I want to do something, but I feel so powerless ... and afraid. "Recently I bought a generous supply of Carol Brouillet's Deception Dollars "I now discreetly drop them wherever I go. Places such as my local grocery store, Home Depot aisles, department store fitting rooms, school hallways, parking lots, you name it. Regardless of where they're distributed, they are picked up quickly. "A couple of weeks ago I "accidentally" dropped one in a hotel elevator. My room had a window overlooking the lobby. What a thrill it was to see the young man who found it sit down with his friends, pass it around and watch them all discussing it. "If you're like me and don't know how to help spread the word about 9/11 truth, consider this approach and click over to <a class="user" href="http://www.deceptiondollar.com">http://www.deceptiondollar.com</a> "Squandering money has never been so much fun": <a class="user" href="http://www.911blogger.com/node/7840#new">http://www.911blogger.com/node/7840#new</a>$$$$$$$$: <a class="user" href="http://www.communitycurrency.org/Donate.html">http://www.communitycurrency.org/Donate.html</a>======================================================Would 9 Military Officers Lie in The Tillman Coverup?Would an Attorney General Lie about Political Firings?Would a President Lie about WMD?WOULD CIVIL ENGINEERS LIE ABOUT THE 9/11 COVERUP? Would a Bear Go to The Bathroom in The Designated Wilderness Area?<a class="user" href="http://www.worldnewstrust.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=1643&Itemid=10201">http://www.worldnewstrust.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=1643&Itemid=10201</a>=====DEAD ON ARRIVALThe NIST 911 Report On The World Trade Center CollapseBy Mark H. Gaffney<a class="user" href="http://rense.com/general74/nist.htm">http://rense.com/general74/nist.htm</a>=====ARE YOU A 16 PERCENTER?There is help for you! If you are among the 16% who still believe theNeonazicons' conspiracy theory about 9/11, YOU CAN BEHELPED! Simply click on the links below to read thescientific debunking of the Bush pseudosciencefairytale about the WTC 9/11 atrocity.<a class="user" href="http://911research.wtc7.net/reviews/kevin_ryan/newstandard.html">http://911research.wtc7.net/reviews/kevin_ryan/newstandard.html</a><a class="user" href="http://911research.wtc7.net/essays/pentagon/index.html">http://911research.wtc7.net/essays/pentagon/index.html</a><a class="user" href="http://www.wtc7.net/events/kc_science/index.html">http://www.wtc7.net/events/kc_science/index.html</a>==========================B E W E T H E M E D I A========================== Get Radio Active HELP STOMP OUT HUMAN-ANIMAL HYBRID KLEPTOCRATS!U.S. Being Awakened from Media-induced Coma by AIR AMERICA RADIO: Find your station HERE: <a class="user" href="http://www.airamericaradio.com">http://www.airamericaradio.com</a> SUPPORT YOUR LOCAL PROPHETS!<a class="user" href="http://www.webspawner.com/users/newstudyshowsgodson">http://www.webspawner.com/users/newstudyshowsgodson</a>=====To be removed from or to subscribe to this freeEnewsletter list please emailsomeoftheabovenews@yahoo.com withREMOVE or SUBSCRIBE in the subject line.=====And if you don't like our news go make some of yourown. Founder 2002: Johannieson & Friends Editor: Myra M. Jackson