chicagotribune.com— Is he or isn't he? Hear from local communists, rarely tapped as campaign pundits, and their stance on claims that Sen. Barack Obama is veering towards socialism.
Oct 20, 2008View in Crawl 4
Socialism as I was taught is when the government controls both what WE think of as utilities industries, like transportation, the phone company, maybe the internet, and energy, plus substantially controls some private industries such as news media, banking, home construction, etc.Now it's true that the GOP and the Dems basically took over the banks, but that would not have been possible if the president and the GOP were opposed.And if Obama's an anti-capitalism socialist, why the hell would Warren Buffet and/or Michael Bloomberg support him?SMOKE SCREEN to keep people from really talking and thinking about the economy. The better question, frankly, is why does the media let McCain get away with it? The choice is either that they don't know, themselves, how to distinguish socialism from other forms of government and don't have the initiative to check wikipedia, or else they're in McCain's pocket.I say, "follow the money." <a class="user" href="http://obamesque.wordpress.com/2008/06/21/conflict-of-interest-follow-the-money/">http://obamesque.wordpress.com/2008/06/21/conflict ...</a>
@ cheesecake42:No. Capitalism is when the means of production are owned privately by capitalists. Socialism is when the means of production are owned commonly by producers (workers). That is all there is to it. Otherwise you are saying all economies on Earth are socialist, which is not true. You could ask any actual socialist and he or she would tell you that definitely is not the case.The Keynesian economic model is not the model prefered by neo-liberals (also known as "libertarians" in the United States). They are in favour of laissez-faire capitalism, whether with its night watchman state or without it. Those in favour of the Keynesian model are mostly European Social Democrats, but they are moving closer and closer to neo-liberal economic policies.The World Bank is indeed promoting free trade. It forces third world nations to open up their markets to foreign capital.
Capitalism is privately owned means of production, period. Owning means of production (of capital) makes you a capitalist. Socialism is commonly owned means of production, be they owned by the state, the municipality or the workers' council. What does it matter if the state owns it, when the state is the workers? Your idea of the state is still the bourgeois nation state and has nothing to do with a socialist state (which the Soviet Union, the People's Republic of China, Cuba and others were and are not)."The working class must break up, smash the “ready-made state machinery,” and not confine itself merely to laying hold of it."-- V.I. Lenin, State and Revolution, 1917"Democracy for an insignificant minority, democracy for the rich — that is the democracy of capitalist society."-- V.I. Lenin, State and Revolution, 1917The state of socialist society is vastly different from states under liberal "democracy". To quote Rosa Luxemburg on key elements of a socialist state:"2. Elimination of all parliaments and municipal councils, and takeover of their functions by workers' and soldiers' councils, and of the latter's committees and organs.3. Election of workers' councils in all Germany by the entire adult working population of both sexes, in the city and the countryside, by enterprises, as well as of soldiers' councils by the troops (officers and capitulationists excluded). The right of workers and soldiers to recall their representatives at any time.4. Election of delegates of the workers' and soldiers' councils in the entire country to the central council of the workers' and soldiers' councils, which is to elect the executive council as the highest organ of the legislative and executive power.5. [...] Right of immediate recall by the local workers' and soldiers' councils and replacement of their representatives in the central council, should these not act in the interests of their constituents. Right of the executive council to appoint and dismiss the people's commissioners as well as the central national authorites and officials."-- Rosa Luxemburg, What Does the Spartacus League Want?, 1918Hence, there are no people in power who can use it to their advantage. Were they to do so, their council would just remove them from power, immediately, and send a new delegate.The World Bank is not a "centralized bank", and certainly not centralized in the same sense as in the Manifesto. The World Bank, as you said, give the third world nations loans with ridiculous interest rates, which, again, as you said, they can never pay back. The World Bank then forces the governments of these nations to open up their markets to foreign (mainly US and European) capital, and to privatize natural resources such as oil and mining industries.Privatization certainly is a key feature of neo-liberalism and free trade.
A socialist is someone who thinks society is important, which is a bit of a no brainer unless you want to live in a jungle.Unless you live in America (wherever that is) and routinely spell Satanist S O C I A L I S T. Silly little Americans!
nodramaOct 21, 2008
Socialism as I was taught is when the government controls both what WE think of as utilities industries, like transportation, the phone company, maybe the internet, and energy, plus substantially controls some private industries such as news media, banking, home construction, etc.Now it's true that the GOP and the Dems basically took over the banks, but that would not have been possible if the president and the GOP were opposed.And if Obama's an anti-capitalism socialist, why the hell would Warren Buffet and/or Michael Bloomberg support him?SMOKE SCREEN to keep people from really talking and thinking about the economy. The better question, frankly, is why does the media let McCain get away with it? The choice is either that they don't know, themselves, how to distinguish socialism from other forms of government and don't have the initiative to check wikipedia, or else they're in McCain's pocket.I say, "follow the money." <a class="user" href="http://obamesque.wordpress.com/2008/06/21/conflict-of-interest-follow-the-money/">http://obamesque.wordpress.com/2008/06/21/conflict ...</a>
marcommomOct 21, 2008
I second that, Delphium.
plummerbobOct 22, 2008
You can take a chunk of your own paycheck and buy your own health care. Why do you need the government to do that for you?
bernandooOct 22, 2008
They MUST be idiots if they disagree with you!!!! All bow down to mighty algaeturd!!!
insurgenteOct 23, 2008
@ cheesecake42:No. Capitalism is when the means of production are owned privately by capitalists. Socialism is when the means of production are owned commonly by producers (workers). That is all there is to it. Otherwise you are saying all economies on Earth are socialist, which is not true. You could ask any actual socialist and he or she would tell you that definitely is not the case.The Keynesian economic model is not the model prefered by neo-liberals (also known as "libertarians" in the United States). They are in favour of laissez-faire capitalism, whether with its night watchman state or without it. Those in favour of the Keynesian model are mostly European Social Democrats, but they are moving closer and closer to neo-liberal economic policies.The World Bank is indeed promoting free trade. It forces third world nations to open up their markets to foreign capital.
insurgenteOct 23, 2008
Capitalism is privately owned means of production, period. Owning means of production (of capital) makes you a capitalist. Socialism is commonly owned means of production, be they owned by the state, the municipality or the workers' council. What does it matter if the state owns it, when the state is the workers? Your idea of the state is still the bourgeois nation state and has nothing to do with a socialist state (which the Soviet Union, the People's Republic of China, Cuba and others were and are not)."The working class must break up, smash the “ready-made state machinery,” and not confine itself merely to laying hold of it."-- V.I. Lenin, State and Revolution, 1917"Democracy for an insignificant minority, democracy for the rich — that is the democracy of capitalist society."-- V.I. Lenin, State and Revolution, 1917The state of socialist society is vastly different from states under liberal "democracy". To quote Rosa Luxemburg on key elements of a socialist state:"2. Elimination of all parliaments and municipal councils, and takeover of their functions by workers' and soldiers' councils, and of the latter's committees and organs.3. Election of workers' councils in all Germany by the entire adult working population of both sexes, in the city and the countryside, by enterprises, as well as of soldiers' councils by the troops (officers and capitulationists excluded). The right of workers and soldiers to recall their representatives at any time.4. Election of delegates of the workers' and soldiers' councils in the entire country to the central council of the workers' and soldiers' councils, which is to elect the executive council as the highest organ of the legislative and executive power.5. [...] Right of immediate recall by the local workers' and soldiers' councils and replacement of their representatives in the central council, should these not act in the interests of their constituents. Right of the executive council to appoint and dismiss the people's commissioners as well as the central national authorites and officials."-- Rosa Luxemburg, What Does the Spartacus League Want?, 1918Hence, there are no people in power who can use it to their advantage. Were they to do so, their council would just remove them from power, immediately, and send a new delegate.The World Bank is not a "centralized bank", and certainly not centralized in the same sense as in the Manifesto. The World Bank, as you said, give the third world nations loans with ridiculous interest rates, which, again, as you said, they can never pay back. The World Bank then forces the governments of these nations to open up their markets to foreign (mainly US and European) capital, and to privatize natural resources such as oil and mining industries.Privatization certainly is a key feature of neo-liberalism and free trade.
kuzotzOct 28, 2008
the gov't bailout of corporations and gov't protecting corporations is called fascsm, and fascism is not socialism.
irvman21Nov 1, 2008
He is. It's pretty clear cut. He's more pure Marxist than garden variety socialist, though.
msp1Nov 5, 2008
A socialist is someone who thinks society is important, which is a bit of a no brainer unless you want to live in a jungle.Unless you live in America (wherever that is) and routinely spell Satanist S O C I A L I S T. Silly little Americans!