huffingtonpost.com — Mike Enzi, one of three Republicans ostensibly negotiating health care reform as part of the Senate's Gang of Six, told a Wyoming town hall crowd that he had no plans to compromise with Democrats and was merely trying to extract concessions.
Aug 26, 2009 View in Crawl 4
rothbardosaurusAug 27, 2009
The government? Using intrusive force? I'm shocked!
diefreeAug 27, 2009
You're a liar. It's really that simple. Vadum said it was a straight line from community organizing to dealing crack. One instance does not equal policy. I have shown that I'm right, you just throw up isolated instances and make an accusation of some sort of conspiracy. You haven't produced any actual evidence poltifact is lying unlike you who put up a clearly biased right wing site "stopACLU". Everyone can see who's right here so yes run along before you embarrass yourself further.
claywtfbbqAug 28, 2009
@TXAggie08"we simply do not have the money to do this"? "We can't keep borrowing like this"? You don't have a clue about economics, do you? I wish I could post a summary of Econ 101 here, but it would be too long and you wouldn't read it, anyways. Suffice it to say, preventable disease and disability is more a threat to our economy than the cost of effective healthcare reform.
Closed AccountAug 28, 2009
"Pretty obviously, yes. But they're all part of the same problem in the US, so I really don't see what you're getting at here."Ah, so you don't really differentiate between the two, huh?Have a good life, then.
Closed AccountAug 29, 2009
"Absolutely not what I said. In fact I clearly said that there is a difference between the two, but that they both form part of a large problem. You'll get reading comprehension at some point."And the difference is...?I'm only asking this to test how objective you are. If you can't answer something so simple, then it's obvious that you're too biased to take seriously.Also, this thread might as well be retitled: "Leftist foreigner admits to not knowing what he's talking about, compares ignorance hypocritically to GOP."
Closed AccountAug 30, 2009
We have two "public options" now that insure non-federal employees. They are called Medicare and Medicaid. Both are on a bullet train to bankruptcy. Trying to expand the "public option" before fixing these existing programs is like trying to load more passengers on the Titanic AFTER it hit the big ice cube. This is a Ponzi plan only Bernie Madoff could love.
ShovelbabySep 1, 2009
@sivyr?Are you kidding me?? Nope. Our taxes are our largest expense. Between federal income, state income, sales, property, social security, FICA, self-employment, corporate, capital gains, estate, gift, sin and alternative minimum taxes (AMT), it is difficult to even keep track of how much is paid out in taxes in America. It depends on your income level and situation, but for many, it is about ? of what they make.?It doesn't matter if the top 10% richest people in the country have access to the best care in the world if half of the people go uninsured and do not have access to even rudimentary care because it costs too much for them.?Half of the people are not uninsured and anyone who requires immediate medical attention receives it. Hospitals do not turn away individuals needing treatment. That is the law. The costs are absorbed by hospitals, doctors and insurance companies (and sometimes with government assistance ) if the patient is not covered. The actual amount of people uninsured in America is most likely less than 20 million and many are in a temporary situation (45% will be uninsured for less than four months according to the Congressional Budget Office). You will hear the claim that we have 46 million uninsured Americans, but when you take out the 9.7 million non-citizens included in that number, those who qualify for Medicaid or Medicare or SCHIP but haven't signed up, and those who can afford coverage, but choose not to have coverage to save the expense, the number comes below 20 million, which is about 6% of the population. A far cry from 50%. <a class="user" href="http://businessandmedia.org/printer/2009/20090623160905.aspx" rel="nofollow">http://businessandmedia.org/printer/2009/200906231 ...</a>As far as the claim that only the top 10% get excellent care, that is incorrect too as 89% of Americans are happy with their health plan. <a class="user" href="http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2009/06/24/obama-pushes-national-health-care-americans-happy-coverage/" rel="nofollow">http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2009/06/24/obama-p ...</a>Our country has an excellent system. Here is a good article on some of the reasons. <a class="user" href="http://www.hoover.org/publications/digest/49525427.html." rel="nofollow">http://www.hoover.org/publications/digest/49525427 ...</a> Additionally, if you break out specifics such as cancer survival rates, again we are the leader <a class="user" href="http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/secondhandsmoke/2009/07/21/most-cancer-survival-rates-in-usa-better-than-europe-and-canada/" rel="nofollow">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/secondhandsmoke/2 ...</a>David Gratzer is a good resource as he has practiced medicine in Canada for years and also practices in the U.S now. Here is a quote from him ?I was once a believer in socialized medicine. I don?t want to overstate my case: growing up in Canada, I didn?t spend much time contemplating the nuances of health economics. I wanted to get into medical school?my mind brimmed with statistics on MCAT scores and admissions rates, not health spending?what I knew about American health care was unappealing: high expenses and lots of uninsured people. When [Hillary Clinton's] HillaryCare shook Washington, I remember thinking that the Clintonistas were right.?My health-care prejudices crumbled not in the classroom but on the way to one. On a subzero Winnipeg morning in 1997, I cut across the hospital emergency room to shave a few minutes off my frigid commute. Swinging open the door, I stepped into a nightmare: the ER overflowed with elderly people on stretchers, waiting for admission. Some, it turned out, had waited five days. The air stank with sweat and urine. Right then, I began to reconsider everything that I thought I knew about Canadian health care. I soon discovered that the problems went well beyond overcrowded ERs. Patients had to wait for practically any diagnostic test or procedure, such as the man with persistent pain from a hernia operation whom we referred to a pain clinic?with a three-year wait list; or the woman needing a sleep study to diagnose what seemed like sleep apnea, who faced a two-year delay; or the woman with breast cancer who needed to wait four months for radiation therapy, when the standard of care was four weeks.?Finally, the WHO report had an agenda. Here is a good article about it. <a class="user" href="http://www.cchconline.org/publications/whoart.php3" rel="nofollow">http://www.cchconline.org/publications/whoart.php3</a> - FTA ?The World Health Organization primarily faults the U.S. for not requiring mandatory insurance or offering social welfare programs to all citizens--in other words, for being a free country with independent citizens. Given America's high level of health-care spending, the U.S. system does not achieve the organization's fairness and distribution goals relative to total health-care resources. In addition, the report criticizes the move toward medical savings accounts and the fact that 56% of America's health-care expenses are privately funded. Interestingly, the WHO completely failed to broadcast that America's health system ranked first in responsiveness to patients' needs for choice of provider, dignity, autonomy, timely care, and confidentiality. In other words, where it matters most to patients, the U.S. system excels. Since health-care systems are created solely to meet the needs of patients, it seems only natural to assume that responsiveness would receive top consideration when judging performance. Yet, first-ranked France ranked only 16th or 17th in responsiveness, while second-ranked Italy ranked 22nd or 23rd. Oman was given a ranking of eighth in performance, but only 83rd in responsiveness to patients. And Morocco, ranked 29th in performance, was ranked at 151-153 in responsiveness--near the bottom of the list.?
zaptomanSep 2, 2009
GOOD! That is exactly what he SHOULD be doing.
cmp1966Sep 3, 2009
Sure. And the insurance companies are looking out for best health interests, too. Wanna buy a bridge???
sivyrSep 9, 2009
@SpindigWell, I wasn't attempting to cite specific figures in my first 4 paragraphs, but I can see how you might take me to be doing so. I honestly just didn't look up numbers and was taking a figurative stance on it.Assuming your points are well researched, you've improved my understanding of the the population demographics involved in this health care discussion significantly. I admit that perhaps the US has greater overall health care effectiveness and availability than I gave it credit for.That doesn't really change my stance, however, that health care should be provided to everyone, regardless of how few go without it. Secondly, it does not change my understanding that the current health care system, however effective you claim it to be, is going to bankrupt your nation over time.To go back to my original intention in this debate, I suggested that health care reform could be a means of saving a significant amount of money. I couple this with my belief that no citizen of the country should go without insurance that is paid for by the government. I do so because it seems apparent that the costs of greater preventative care encouraged by the government easily undercut the current costs imposed by prevention avoidance followed by welfare treatment. Everyone paying smaller fees in the form of taxes to encourage preventative treatment prevents the massive burden of paying for those expensive treatments that the uninsured or can't afford when they need them (as per your requirement to provide treatment, rather than providing insurance).Maybe this isn't clear evidence, but if your claims about how much you pay in taxes are even ballpark accurate, then you pay more taxes in the US than in socialist countries such as my own. If that's really the case, you've made a further argument for why you'd better get off your ass and do something about your exorbitantly expensive health care system.Ultimately, while I can't present clear and decisive evidence that national health care will save the average American money, you have yet to provide me any argument that directly addresses the financial emergency that is your current health care system. You can digg me down and take potshots at my terminology, provide anecdotal evidence of Canadian health care pitfalls, and cite the effectiveness of your health care system all you like, but it all goes back to the fact that the system you're defending is too goddamn expensive, and you need to so something with it before China owns your government.
crudomaticSep 28, 2009
"""Who said Obama can't be criticized?"""Chris Matthews / Corporate media / and all the other OBAAAMAAAA sheep that scream RACISM every time you try to debate on of his policies, or criticize anything about him."""By the way, where the hell were you with the "tyranny" rant while the Bush/Cheney administration was in office?"""I'm so sick of this f**king excuse I could puke. I WAS RIGHT HERE WITH THE SAME ARGUMENT. Go ahead Obama zombie, try to say that I loved Bush - and that is why I hate Obama. Please."""Oh, I see, it's tyranny/communism whenever an ideology doesn't fit YOUR particular view of politics."""You must have missed the part where I said I wasn't a conservative or a republican. You Obama sheep are really something. Enjoy your endless bailouts and socialized healthcare."""Personally, I've never discouraged anyone from genuinely debating healthcare reform issues."""Really? I seem to remember you saying this:"The Democrat's should cut the Republicans out of all negotiations on Healthcare reform"hmmmm... just the same as all the Obamanites."""Obviously, you missed the point of my earlier message. I respect those who sacrificed to make the country what it is. Something you appear to lack as you call anyone who disagrees with your world view a communist or socialist."""No, I call people socialists when:* They use tax payer dollars to bail out corrupt organizations WHO CAUSED THE PROBLEM TO BEGIN WITH* They start talking about wealth redistribution* They start trying to socialize every goddamn thing they can - healthcare is a start* They fill their young formative minds with nationalist/socialist/communist drivel - as Obama said he did in "Dreams of My Father"* They were asscoiated with commie TERRORISTS in college (Weather Underground, anyone)Forget the fact that Obama has lied about every thing while in office - no he's a good man."""McCarthyism died a long time ago since it relied on nothing but baseless accusations (much like you're doing)."""Baseless - yeah right. Read above."""Finally, considering that over 65% of the American people fully embrace a robust public option, you appear to be holding a solid minority opinion on healthcare reform."""Hey just because someone has 50 million screaming fans, doesn't mean he is right or good. It just means he is good at fooling most of the people most of the time. Not to mention is creepy cult of personality he has - these people would gladly kill for him. Creepy as hell.