ecogeek.org — Surprise! The first hybrid car is a 100-year-old Porsche! The car had in-wheel electric motors and an onboard gas engine to recharge the batteries. This makes the car a serial hybrid (only one engine drives the wheels) like the Volt, instead of a paralell hybrid (both engines drive the wheels) like the Prius.
Nov 12, 2007 View in Crawl 4
fubuvsfitchNov 13, 2007
Thanks. I figured it was just worded poorly.
diggggggggggNov 13, 2007
What you said makes absolutely no sense. First of all, a brushless DC motor is the same as an 'AC motor'. The only difference is that there are internal electronics that do the commutation, which basically converts the DC into AC. <a class="user" href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brushless_motor">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brushless_motor</a> . No hybrid vehicle would use a DC brush motor due to obvious problems with sparking, heat, and inefficiency.You talk about frequencies. What do these frequencies mean? You seem to imply that this is the frequency of the AC power supply to the motor, which makes no sense. The frequency of the AC is proportional to the speed that the motor is spinning. To make a motor spin faster, you would gradually increase the frequency of the alternating current. See this article for more information: <a class="user" href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AC_motor">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AC_motor</a>Then, there's the thing about ferric oxide. As brufleth mentioned, ferric oxide is rust. How would you build any part of a motor, rotor or stator, out of rust? You tie this in with the 'frequency'. I can't imagine why these two things are related. Finally, I just wanted to point out that modern hybrid vehicles don't use 100 year old technologies. Do you really think that they just hooked up a DC brush motor to a potentiometer to control the velocity? A modern hybrid uses computer controlled commutation to control a brushless motor. The frequency of this commutated signal is proportional to the velocity at which they want the motor to spin. The electronics of a hybrid vehicle, like the Prius, are very well designed and require surprisingly little maintenance, it's the battery that ends up eating up most of the maintenance cost.Long story short, if you want to make it sound like the automakers are intentionally withholding technology from us for the sake of profit, I would recommend that you try to spew random jargon about battery technology. The motors that they use are exceptionally well designed, contrary to what you believe.
starguyNov 13, 2007
Every stick shift car on the road today with an electric starter is a 'hybrid'. Have fun moving around electrically by engaging the starter with your key off... great for getting yourself the F out of traffic when your too heavy to friggin push car dies in the road.
bigsteveNov 13, 2007
Hence why it is so easy nowadays to convert diesel vehicles to run on vegetable oil. Honda is apparently working on a version of their Accord that runs on diesel.
Closed AccountNov 14, 2007
If you want to be truly technical and scientific; the ferric oxide used in high frequency switched mode transformers, brushless motors, and high frequency motors is called ferrite. The rest of the technology is off the shelf technology already in use in industrial applications. I doubt that you have serviced a DC traction motor, single and three phase electric motors, switched mode power supplies, built high frequency switching transformers or wired 3 phase AC transmission lines. Get a job in the industrial electrical real world and you may learn something that is not printed in textbooks or posted on the net. An interesting phenomenon occurs when you increase the frequency to 2 KHz. The magnetic core is smaller that 50/60 Hz. The transformer turns ratio is smaller. From 2 turns per volt to half a turn per volt. Current is current at any frequency so the copper cross sectional area is the same. Overall the transformer is about 10% of the weight of a 50/60hz transformer. So are the hub motors. Using a 2KHz 3 phase traction system similar to the mining dump trucks will reduce the weight of the vehicle. At the moment it is weight which prohibits the manufacture of economical electric cars. Reference: <a class="user" href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ferrite_(magnet)">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ferrite_(magnet)</a>Ferrites are usually non-conductive ferrimagnetic ceramic compounds derived from iron oxides such as hematite (Fe2O3) or magnetite (Fe3O4) as well as oxides of other metals. Ferrites are, like most other ceramics, hard and brittle. In terms of the magnetic properties, ferrites are often classified as "soft" and "hard" which refers to their low or high coercitivity of their magnetism, respectively.Altogether there are sixteen known iron oxides. These compounds are either oxides (wüstite, hematite, β-Fe2O3, maghemite, γ-Fe2O3, ε-Fe2O3, magnetite, ferrihydrite), or hydroxides and oxide-hydroxides (goethite, akaganéite, lepidocrocite, feroxyhyte, bernalite, schwertmannite and green rusts).Some of these oxides are used in ceramic applications, particularly in glazing. Many metal oxides provide the colours in glazes after being fired at high temperatures.Iron(II) oxide (FeO) or ferrous oxide is also known as wüstite in its mineral form. The black-coloured powder in particular can cause explosions as it readily ignites.Iron(III) oxide (Fe2O3) or ferric oxide is also known as hematite or maghemite in its mineral form, or rouge as an industrial chemical. Purified, it is used as a coating in magnetic audio and computer media. In a dry or alkaline environment it can cause passivation and inhibits rust, yet it is also a major component of rust.Iron(II,III) oxide (Fe3O4) or ferrous ferric oxide is also known as magnetite or lodestone in its mineral form. Magnetite is an iron ore. This form of iron oxide tends to occur when iron corrodes underwater, and so is often found inside tanks or below the waterline of ships.Ferrite cores are used in electronic inductors, transformers, and electromagnets where the high electrical resistance of the ferrite leads to very low eddy current losses. They are commonly seen as a lump in a computer cable, called a ferrite bead, which helps to prevent high frequency electrical noise (radio frequency interference) from exiting or entering the equipment.
Closed AccountNov 14, 2007
I have re-written my previous post to clarify some issues raised. The problem with current electric hybrids is that they are using 100 year old technologies. DC motors and generators are heavy and inefficient otherwise AC would not have been developed. 3 phase AC traction motors and alternators are very efficient torque to weight ratio, but at 50/60 Hz they are too big and heavy to be used for the domestic automobile. In the mining industry in Western Australia, they use diesel driven electric generators electric traction motor dump trucks manufactured in the USA or Japan. The same technology is used in the heavy haulage railway locomotives carting the iron ore to the ports. Technologies exist to scale the electric generation and traction system of the mining dump trucks and locomotives if different materials are used.Using a 2 KHz AC power generation system, an alternative magnetic material to iron can be used. The material is manufactured from ferric oxide and commonly called ferrite. Reference: <a class="user" href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ferrite_(magnet)">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ferrite_(magnet)</a>Why 2KHz? Mainly because the weight of the transformers, generators and motors are approximately 10% of a 50/60Hz AC system. Also the turns ratio can be reduced from 2 turns per volt to half a turn per volt. Current is current at any frequency, so the cross section of the copper remains the same except there is about 50% saving in the copper used and probably can be reduced to 80%.The end product is a generation and traction system that weighs 10% of a DC or 50/50 Hz traction system. Direct drive hub motors using solid state speed control have been in use for over 20 years. You will find them in floppy drives and high end direct drive turntables. They have amazing torque to size ratio. The same technology can be used to build high torque computer servo controlled hub traction motors for domestic motor vehicles.The Japanese have developed ceramic piston and cylinder internal combustion motors which do not require lubrication. Ceramics shrink when the temperature increases and also do not require an oil lubricant at the operating temperature. The end product is a more efficient motor which does not burn oil leading to less exhaust emissions.In summary, diesel electric dump truck and locomotive technology is already being manufactured and in use in the mining industry. Why, because AC electric traction is far superior to diesel/petrol traction and can be infinitely speed controlled. Scaling the same technology to motor vehicles using modern ferric oxide (ferrite) compounds and using state of the art electronics and computer servo control is feasible and economical on a mass production scale. Too easy; except that vehicle manufacturers do not want you to have the technology. Currently, the real money is made in the servicing of the vehicle and the sale of spare parts after the vehicle sale. You cannot have a maintenance free vehicle which will run for 10 years without a service. Vested interests will go bankrupt. Electric motors on the other hand use sealed long life ball bearings and will run 10 years without being serviced. I have seen 30 year old motors which were installed in industrial environments which have never been serviced or bearings replaced. Being a sceptic is healthy. Unless you have worked in the industrial electrical servicing industry, you may never encounter the technologies in use. Don’t take my word for it, Google the net, and do your own technology research. Open up a switched mode power supply and compare it with a 50/60 Hz transformer of the same rating. Weigh both and compare them. Remove the iron core from a conventional transformer, unwind the copper and weight it. Do the same with a switched mode transformer. Try turning a floppy disk with your fingers, then open up the disk traction motor. Observe the construction of the motor coils and the servo chip. Think about this; Tesla was working on high frequency AC transmission in the 1920’s and 30’s. If Tesla had already designed the AC transmission system, he would have designed the AC traction motors. Where are they?
alchemist27Nov 14, 2007
they hybrid cayenne looks just the same, except it has ugly decals stating that it's a hybrid on the side of the car, as seen in the pics
thetimehascomeJan 23, 2008
this was news to me. i knew diesel-electric locomotives existed in the 1920's but, not cars! Please check out the AFS triinity extreme hybrid 150. we need to get the info out!!
nkthenFeb 26, 2008
Very interesting...<a class="user" href="http://www.hybridcarsmoney.com">http://www.hybridcarsmoney.com</a>
pazolozapMar 14, 2008
More people should learn about this. EV technology is really becoming impressive, like the new Zap that does 0-60mph in 4.8 seconds. Electric is looking more and more like the way to go.
trev0006Apr 16, 2008
Sometimes I wonder why certain car companies bury these ideas when in fact it is the technology of the future. I think they are paid off not to continue their research for money reasons. <a class="user" href="http://www.dpccars.com/porsche/porsche.htm">http://www.dpccars.com/porsche/porsche.htm</a> <a class="user" href="http://www.discountpartcenter.com/">http://www.discountpartcenter.com/</a>
hybridsocietyDec 6, 2008
Porsche has announce on plans of a hybrid Panamera, Porsche four-door sport sedan! The Panamera will have a gasoline-electric hybrid driveline when it goes on sale in 2009.The full parallel-hybrid system of the Panamera will be configured with the battery unit positioned below the luggage compartment. The hybrid module containing an additional clutch and electric motor will be between the engine and transmission.The word for Porsche is that the hybrid module will be able to run on gasoline or electric power or a combination of both. The goal is for zero emissions, fuel savings in city and highway driving and maximum performance when desired.Automotive spy photographer Brenda Priddy said the Panamera is scheduled to be shown at the 2009 Geneva show in early March.<a class="user" href="http://hybridcar-news.com/porsche-panamera-hybrid/">http://hybridcar-news.com/porsche-panamera-hybrid/</a>