mcloughlinpost.com— Opinion piece discusses right of return for Palestinian refugees, and tackles some of the argument which deflect criticism away from Israel's treatment of the Palestinians.
Mar 10, 2010View in Crawl 4
Hey there wpi97, maybe it would be helpful to you in answering your own question as to why I hold the position that I do if you actually took the time to read the article - which I wrote. That doesn't mean that I expect you to agree or disagree, but it will certainly answer your question in any event. I would share that it is a work in progress, and I will be wanting to flesh out a bit more the action reaction component of the history.
The "reply" button is your friend. Use it."Palestinians are not culpable in any way for what was done to Jews anywhere else. " - agreed. Does that have any relevance whatsoever to what has been said? We were discussing the status of Jews in Arab countries before 1948. Less slogans and more attention, if you want to have a discussion, please."There was no quid pro quo population exchange of Palestinians and Jews." - no? X Palestinians left Israel. Y Jews left Arab lands. N<Y Jews were absorbed by Israel. M<X Palestinians were absorbed (hardly, but they're there) by Arab countries. That seems like a population exchange."The 'One cow' quote was utilized by way of analogy" - still, your "link that did not originally post properly" fails to give a source. It is just said that some "Izaak Greenbaum" said so. If you're going to use something for whatever reasons, please do try to use proper quoting procedures - it is what responsible writers that want to be taken seriously do."we can pick aspects of laws to discuss as examples of the laws themselves" - I am sorry, that sentence does not parse. What is an "aspect of law" and how does it become an "example of law" ? In your text, you say that any list calling for equality between Arabs and Jews will be disqualified. BUT the text you quote says clearly: "It is true that since this ammendment came into effectno lists have been disqualified under section 7A(1)". So the example is moot,made moot by the very source that is using it. "Israeli Arabs do not have full participation in civic life": And yet, 12 of the present120 members of the Israeli Parliament are Israeli Arab citizens, most representing Arab political parties, some in non-Arab parties, and one of Israel's Supreme Court judges is a Palestinian Arab. A law (with many, many "examples") says that on every state-owned company, at least one member of the director board must be an Israeli Arab. israeli Arabs have served and serve now as consuls of Israel around the world. Hussein Fares and Yossef Mishlav are Druze generals in the IDF. You were saying?"they live a precarious life where they are discriminated against and marginalized" - Khaled Abu Toameh - you may want to become familiar with his writings - <a class="user" href="http://www.hudsonny.org/2009/05/islam-today-1.php" rel="nofollow">http://www.hudsonny.org/2009/05/islam-today-1.php</a> - "We Arabs have been exposed to many good things inside Israel. I'm not ashamed to say that we learned from Israel. We learned about democracy. We learned about the freedom of debate. We learned about the freedom of the media.[...] Now some Israeli-Arab leaders, like this Knesset member, they run in the elections on a platform that promises their constituents equality and better services. They come to us, the Israeli-Arabs and say, "Vote for us. We'll bring you equality. We will make sure that the government starts investing more in the Arab sector.” [...]But when these Israeli-Arabs Knesset members come to the Knesset, instead of dealing with the real problems of the Israeli-Arab community, what do they do? They go to meet with Hamas and Hizbullah leaders. And they will use any available platform to attack Israel and provoke the Jewish public. Why do they do that?"Again, a good slogan does not always make for good truth.
We have achieved a breakthrough: "Palestinians are not culpable in any way for what was done to Jews anywhere else. " - agreed. 'But, we have many miles to go. My argument is that there was no 'double Nakba' - that is, that the expulsion of the Palestinians in 1948 is not the same as the expulsions experienced by the Jews in Arab countries. You keep going back to expulsions of Jews from Arab countries as if you mean to suggest that I deny that they took place - I do not, and I said that they were wrong.My example of Israeli law that discriminates against Arab-Israeli citizens is not 'moot'. Lists of Arab-Israeli candidates have been disqualified from running for election in the past, when they have been viewed as having the intent to challenge Israel's discriminatory laws. The fact that lists have not been disqualified since the formal law banning any from challenging Israel's Jewishness in preference of a state where everyone is equal under the law, does not mean that the effort hasn't been made (see below). The law is on the books; efforts have been made to bar Arab-Israelis from running for public office - you left that out. '4. For example, El-Ard v. District Commissioner, 18 PD II 340 & Sabri Jiryis v. District Commissioner, 18 PD IV 673, Yerdor v. Central Elections Committee, 19 PD III 365, Neiman v. Chairman of the Central Elections Committee, 39 PD II 233. It is true that since this amendment came into effect no lists have been disqualified under section 7A(1), however the legal power still remains there to do so.'Link: <a class="user" href="http://www.arabhra.org/hra/SecondaryArticles/SecondaryArticlePage.aspx?SecondaryArticle=1499" rel="nofollow">http://www.arabhra.org/hra/SecondaryArticles/Secon ...</a>Again with the one cow. You keep on about the cow to the exclusion of the elephant which is that Zionists, in the midst of the unfolding horrors of the Shoah, have been accused by Jews of having had opportunities to pay ransoms to rescue European Jews from certain death, and that they were so driven by their own aims that they didn't when they might have because they refused the caveat that Jews not emigrate to Palestine. See, for example: <a class="user" href="http://www.qsc.cc/Liebermann.htm" rel="nofollow">http://www.qsc.cc/Liebermann.htm</a> Your citing the fact that there are a handful of Arab-Israelis here and there serving in public life in Israel is not proof that there is no discrimination in Israeli society against them. They are vastly outnumbered. The minority is dependent on the majority for whatever will be determined in terms of equality, liberty, or rights. Here is one interesting description of how it is by Ahmed Tibi, a member of the Arab Movement for Renewal and a member of the Israeli Knesset: 'We take our citizenship seriously and struggle daily to improve our lot and overcome discriminatory laws and practices.'We face discrimination in all fields of life. Arab citizens are 20 percent of the population, but only 6 percent of the employees in the public sector. Not one Arab employee is working in the central bank of Israel. Imagine if there was not one African-American citizen employed in the central bank of the United States.'Israel is simultaneously running three systems of government. The first is full democracy toward its Jewish citizens — ethnocracy. The second is racial discrimination toward the Palestinian minority — creeping Jim Crowism. And the third is occupation of the Palestinian territories with one set of laws for Palestinians and another for Jewish settlers — apartheid.'A few weeks ago, Lieberman’s Yisrael Beiteinu Party led the charge in the Israeli Knesset to ban my party — the Arab Movement for Renewal — from participating in the elections. Netanyahu’s Likud also supported the action. The Supreme Court overturned the maneuvers of the politicians. But their attempt to ban our participation should expose Israel’s democracy to the world as fraudulent...'From: A Harsh Reality for Palestinians; 06/04/09; NYT<a class="user" href="http://www.nytimes.com/2009/04/07/opinion/07iht-edtibi.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.nytimes.com/2009/04/07/opinion/07iht-ed ...</a>
'We have achieved a breakthrough: ' - you seem to have the habit of writing about things you know nothing about - so I won't hold your ignorance of my political beliefs against you. Try reading more of my posts and you'll see how stupid that allegation is.'You keep going back to expulsions of Jews from Arab countries as if you mean to suggest that I deny that they took place' - no, I do not. I am simply meaning that in the same way that Palestinians were 'moved' from their homes, for whatever reason strikes your fancy, an approximate number of Jews suffered the same process. And that creates an equivalency of sorts, with the difference that most of those Jews were absorbed by Israel, while the Palestinians haven't been absorbed by Arab countries to this day, and indeed, suffer many more injustices in the hands of their Arab brothers than they do in the Territories. Not that it seems to bother you in the least.'and I said that they were wrong.' - would you like to try for 'but some of my best friends are Jews' next? Saying you think something is wrong then hitting the same note on how something similar is not-so-wrong is such poor form.'Lists of Arab-Israeli candidates have been disqualified from running for election in the past,' - now you sound so knowledgeable, I'll _have_ to ask you for specifics. Do you know what El-Ard's platform was, or what Sabri Jiryis wanted ? Or are you (gasp!can it be?) just parroting a link you found? I'll give you a hint - it had _nothing_ to do with lists or elections.'efforts have been made to bar Arab-Israelis from running for public office ' - and yet, the proof is in the pudding. Even if efforts have been made, 10% of the MKs today are Arabs, a High Court justice is Arab, ministers are Arabs, two IDF generals are Arabs...not a very good effort, was it?'Again with the one cow. You keep on about the cow to the exclusion of the elephant which is that Zionists' - hey, you brought the cow in - and still haven't brought in a single real source for the oh so incriminating declaration - instead, by sleigh of hand you try to put the "Zionists" in the fire. That, my dear, is desperate dishonesty from someone that can't stand by her sources. Not what a proper author who wants people to pay her for her writings should do. Unless of course you want to be paid for your prolific Israel-bashing.'Your citing the fact that there are a handful of Arab-Israelis here and there serving in public life in Israel is not proof that there is no discrimination in Israeli society against them.' - no, it is not. I never claimed it was. Discrimination against minories, I'm sure you know, exists everywhere. No single place is perfect. But to claim that they have no part in Israel's life, like YOU did, is the real lie. Again, not what good authors that want to eat from their writings should do.'Here is one interesting description of how it is by Ahmed Tibi, a member of the Arab Movement for Renewal and a member of the Israeli Knesset: ' - and also a long, long time counselor of that paragon of peace and improvement of the Palestinian people, Yasser Arafat. If you want to know who Khaled Abu Toameh was talking about, it was about Ahmed Tibi, who is willing to fight for Palestine, so long as he doesn't actually have to live there. He'll fight for Palestine until the last Israeli Arab.'The Supreme Court overturned the maneuvers of the politicians. But their attempt to ban our participation should expose Israel's democracy to the world as fraudulent...' - what demagoguery. In the same sentence where he whines, he attests that the Supreme Court (of Israel!) overturned the maneuvers. Had the Supreme Court said nothing, he'd have a leg to stand on (and consequently, so would you). But since one party was free to make their demands, and the freedom of expression of the targetted party was upheld by the courts...a sane person would call that democracy.Seems like you have more reading to do - there seems to be more to the reality of Israel that you don't know about than the details of the expulsion of Jews from Arab lands
dianevmcMar 10, 2010Submitter
I disagree with the Jewish argument that expulsion of Jews by Arab countries is equivalent to Palestinian Nakba.
dianevmcMar 11, 2010Submitter
Hey there wpi97, maybe it would be helpful to you in answering your own question as to why I hold the position that I do if you actually took the time to read the article - which I wrote. That doesn't mean that I expect you to agree or disagree, but it will certainly answer your question in any event. I would share that it is a work in progress, and I will be wanting to flesh out a bit more the action reaction component of the history.
dianevmcMar 12, 2010Submitter
chrisjj it helps to read the article. I voted your comment up because I, and my article, agree with you.
foopirataMar 12, 2010
The "reply" button is your friend. Use it."Palestinians are not culpable in any way for what was done to Jews anywhere else. " - agreed. Does that have any relevance whatsoever to what has been said? We were discussing the status of Jews in Arab countries before 1948. Less slogans and more attention, if you want to have a discussion, please."There was no quid pro quo population exchange of Palestinians and Jews." - no? X Palestinians left Israel. Y Jews left Arab lands. N<Y Jews were absorbed by Israel. M<X Palestinians were absorbed (hardly, but they're there) by Arab countries. That seems like a population exchange."The 'One cow' quote was utilized by way of analogy" - still, your "link that did not originally post properly" fails to give a source. It is just said that some "Izaak Greenbaum" said so. If you're going to use something for whatever reasons, please do try to use proper quoting procedures - it is what responsible writers that want to be taken seriously do."we can pick aspects of laws to discuss as examples of the laws themselves" - I am sorry, that sentence does not parse. What is an "aspect of law" and how does it become an "example of law" ? In your text, you say that any list calling for equality between Arabs and Jews will be disqualified. BUT the text you quote says clearly: "It is true that since this ammendment came into effectno lists have been disqualified under section 7A(1)". So the example is moot,made moot by the very source that is using it. "Israeli Arabs do not have full participation in civic life": And yet, 12 of the present120 members of the Israeli Parliament are Israeli Arab citizens, most representing Arab political parties, some in non-Arab parties, and one of Israel's Supreme Court judges is a Palestinian Arab. A law (with many, many "examples") says that on every state-owned company, at least one member of the director board must be an Israeli Arab. israeli Arabs have served and serve now as consuls of Israel around the world. Hussein Fares and Yossef Mishlav are Druze generals in the IDF. You were saying?"they live a precarious life where they are discriminated against and marginalized" - Khaled Abu Toameh - you may want to become familiar with his writings - <a class="user" href="http://www.hudsonny.org/2009/05/islam-today-1.php" rel="nofollow">http://www.hudsonny.org/2009/05/islam-today-1.php</a> - "We Arabs have been exposed to many good things inside Israel. I'm not ashamed to say that we learned from Israel. We learned about democracy. We learned about the freedom of debate. We learned about the freedom of the media.[...] Now some Israeli-Arab leaders, like this Knesset member, they run in the elections on a platform that promises their constituents equality and better services. They come to us, the Israeli-Arabs and say, "Vote for us. We'll bring you equality. We will make sure that the government starts investing more in the Arab sector.” [...]But when these Israeli-Arabs Knesset members come to the Knesset, instead of dealing with the real problems of the Israeli-Arab community, what do they do? They go to meet with Hamas and Hizbullah leaders. And they will use any available platform to attack Israel and provoke the Jewish public. Why do they do that?"Again, a good slogan does not always make for good truth.
dianevmcMar 12, 2010Submitter
We have achieved a breakthrough: "Palestinians are not culpable in any way for what was done to Jews anywhere else. " - agreed. 'But, we have many miles to go. My argument is that there was no 'double Nakba' - that is, that the expulsion of the Palestinians in 1948 is not the same as the expulsions experienced by the Jews in Arab countries. You keep going back to expulsions of Jews from Arab countries as if you mean to suggest that I deny that they took place - I do not, and I said that they were wrong.My example of Israeli law that discriminates against Arab-Israeli citizens is not 'moot'. Lists of Arab-Israeli candidates have been disqualified from running for election in the past, when they have been viewed as having the intent to challenge Israel's discriminatory laws. The fact that lists have not been disqualified since the formal law banning any from challenging Israel's Jewishness in preference of a state where everyone is equal under the law, does not mean that the effort hasn't been made (see below). The law is on the books; efforts have been made to bar Arab-Israelis from running for public office - you left that out. '4. For example, El-Ard v. District Commissioner, 18 PD II 340 & Sabri Jiryis v. District Commissioner, 18 PD IV 673, Yerdor v. Central Elections Committee, 19 PD III 365, Neiman v. Chairman of the Central Elections Committee, 39 PD II 233. It is true that since this amendment came into effect no lists have been disqualified under section 7A(1), however the legal power still remains there to do so.'Link: <a class="user" href="http://www.arabhra.org/hra/SecondaryArticles/SecondaryArticlePage.aspx?SecondaryArticle=1499" rel="nofollow">http://www.arabhra.org/hra/SecondaryArticles/Secon ...</a>Again with the one cow. You keep on about the cow to the exclusion of the elephant which is that Zionists, in the midst of the unfolding horrors of the Shoah, have been accused by Jews of having had opportunities to pay ransoms to rescue European Jews from certain death, and that they were so driven by their own aims that they didn't when they might have because they refused the caveat that Jews not emigrate to Palestine. See, for example: <a class="user" href="http://www.qsc.cc/Liebermann.htm" rel="nofollow">http://www.qsc.cc/Liebermann.htm</a> Your citing the fact that there are a handful of Arab-Israelis here and there serving in public life in Israel is not proof that there is no discrimination in Israeli society against them. They are vastly outnumbered. The minority is dependent on the majority for whatever will be determined in terms of equality, liberty, or rights. Here is one interesting description of how it is by Ahmed Tibi, a member of the Arab Movement for Renewal and a member of the Israeli Knesset: 'We take our citizenship seriously and struggle daily to improve our lot and overcome discriminatory laws and practices.'We face discrimination in all fields of life. Arab citizens are 20 percent of the population, but only 6 percent of the employees in the public sector. Not one Arab employee is working in the central bank of Israel. Imagine if there was not one African-American citizen employed in the central bank of the United States.'Israel is simultaneously running three systems of government. The first is full democracy toward its Jewish citizens — ethnocracy. The second is racial discrimination toward the Palestinian minority — creeping Jim Crowism. And the third is occupation of the Palestinian territories with one set of laws for Palestinians and another for Jewish settlers — apartheid.'A few weeks ago, Lieberman’s Yisrael Beiteinu Party led the charge in the Israeli Knesset to ban my party — the Arab Movement for Renewal — from participating in the elections. Netanyahu’s Likud also supported the action. The Supreme Court overturned the maneuvers of the politicians. But their attempt to ban our participation should expose Israel’s democracy to the world as fraudulent...'From: A Harsh Reality for Palestinians; 06/04/09; NYT<a class="user" href="http://www.nytimes.com/2009/04/07/opinion/07iht-edtibi.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.nytimes.com/2009/04/07/opinion/07iht-ed ...</a>
foopirataMar 13, 2010
'We have achieved a breakthrough: ' - you seem to have the habit of writing about things you know nothing about - so I won't hold your ignorance of my political beliefs against you. Try reading more of my posts and you'll see how stupid that allegation is.'You keep going back to expulsions of Jews from Arab countries as if you mean to suggest that I deny that they took place' - no, I do not. I am simply meaning that in the same way that Palestinians were 'moved' from their homes, for whatever reason strikes your fancy, an approximate number of Jews suffered the same process. And that creates an equivalency of sorts, with the difference that most of those Jews were absorbed by Israel, while the Palestinians haven't been absorbed by Arab countries to this day, and indeed, suffer many more injustices in the hands of their Arab brothers than they do in the Territories. Not that it seems to bother you in the least.'and I said that they were wrong.' - would you like to try for 'but some of my best friends are Jews' next? Saying you think something is wrong then hitting the same note on how something similar is not-so-wrong is such poor form.'Lists of Arab-Israeli candidates have been disqualified from running for election in the past,' - now you sound so knowledgeable, I'll _have_ to ask you for specifics. Do you know what El-Ard's platform was, or what Sabri Jiryis wanted ? Or are you (gasp!can it be?) just parroting a link you found? I'll give you a hint - it had _nothing_ to do with lists or elections.'efforts have been made to bar Arab-Israelis from running for public office ' - and yet, the proof is in the pudding. Even if efforts have been made, 10% of the MKs today are Arabs, a High Court justice is Arab, ministers are Arabs, two IDF generals are Arabs...not a very good effort, was it?'Again with the one cow. You keep on about the cow to the exclusion of the elephant which is that Zionists' - hey, you brought the cow in - and still haven't brought in a single real source for the oh so incriminating declaration - instead, by sleigh of hand you try to put the "Zionists" in the fire. That, my dear, is desperate dishonesty from someone that can't stand by her sources. Not what a proper author who wants people to pay her for her writings should do. Unless of course you want to be paid for your prolific Israel-bashing.'Your citing the fact that there are a handful of Arab-Israelis here and there serving in public life in Israel is not proof that there is no discrimination in Israeli society against them.' - no, it is not. I never claimed it was. Discrimination against minories, I'm sure you know, exists everywhere. No single place is perfect. But to claim that they have no part in Israel's life, like YOU did, is the real lie. Again, not what good authors that want to eat from their writings should do.'Here is one interesting description of how it is by Ahmed Tibi, a member of the Arab Movement for Renewal and a member of the Israeli Knesset: ' - and also a long, long time counselor of that paragon of peace and improvement of the Palestinian people, Yasser Arafat. If you want to know who Khaled Abu Toameh was talking about, it was about Ahmed Tibi, who is willing to fight for Palestine, so long as he doesn't actually have to live there. He'll fight for Palestine until the last Israeli Arab.'The Supreme Court overturned the maneuvers of the politicians. But their attempt to ban our participation should expose Israel's democracy to the world as fraudulent...' - what demagoguery. In the same sentence where he whines, he attests that the Supreme Court (of Israel!) overturned the maneuvers. Had the Supreme Court said nothing, he'd have a leg to stand on (and consequently, so would you). But since one party was free to make their demands, and the freedom of expression of the targetted party was upheld by the courts...a sane person would call that democracy.Seems like you have more reading to do - there seems to be more to the reality of Israel that you don't know about than the details of the expulsion of Jews from Arab lands