sfgate.com — Six years ago, the Boy Scouts convinced the U.S. Supreme Court that their deep-seated principles gave them a constitutional right to exclude gays and atheists. Now the CA Supreme Court has been asked to look at the other side of that coin -- whether the Scouts are a religious organization ineligible for certain types of government aid.
Dec 22, 2006 View in Crawl 4
kronix2Dec 23, 2006
Look, there's no point in arguing with the theists in this article. Their argument falls apart when you ask them to apply the same level of scepticism on the purported existence of the Invisible Pink Unicorn, Zombie Jesus or any other deity whose existence they deny.This is the principle of falsifiability - that a proposition can only be taken seriously if it is possible to contradict that proposition through the gathering of evidence. Therefore, any proposition involving invisible, intangible, transcendent entities must be dismissed out of hand, as there is no possible method of disproving something which can't be observed.To make this clear: no Christian in the world can disprove the existence of Brahman. No Muslim can disprove the existence of Zeus. Atheists cannot disprove the existence of the Abrahamic God.The difference between theists and atheists is simple: theists are hypocritical with regards to the level of scepticism they apply, to the extent where simply replacing the word God with Zeus in a body of "evidence" invalidates the theological arguments used to prove the existence of God . Atheists apply the same level of scepticism across the board to all propositions.
douggrifDec 23, 2006
Doesn't it bother most of you how many times the will of voters or their duly elected representatives are prevented by the judicial branch of government? This country was founded on the principles democracy in which prevailing wishes of the voters determine law. Whether I agree or disagree with judges reversing popular votes I am concerned that judges have become the new "super legislature". Judges have become political arbitrators instead of honestly interpreting the law. All of you should think long and hard about lauding judges because they support your political views because those judges are denying the majority of the voters. To be effective judges should narrowly interpret the law leaving it to the legislature to determine the details as they must stand for re-election by the people. Judges are rarely accountable to anyone. Personally I trust the people and our elected government, not a bunch of activist lawyers and political judges.
schnitziDec 23, 2006
You just don't get it, stevejb68.Excluding people who don't believe in God is discrimination, plain and simple, even if they accept all manner of God-believers. Imagine if the scouts disallowed blacks, and justified it on the grounds that they accept whites from all over -- eastern Europe, South America, Australia... And then -- and this is the key point -- used tax money paid by blacks themselves to host their functions.Personally, I think the scouts should be allowed to discriminate all they want. They just shouldn't be allowed to use taxpayer money in the process. And if you read the article, that's all this case is about -- it's not about anybody trying to shut them down.
schnitziDec 24, 2006
>These schools discriminated against Christians by the government demanding them be secular.Typical fundamentalist. You see being denied special privileges as discrimination against you.And why do you see this as discrimination against Christianity in particular, when NO religion has the right to preach in schools? What a martyr complex.
rationalistDec 24, 2006
"You want to ridicule the direction scouting has taken?Than ridicule the leaders that allowed a religious special interest to take over."In fact, the Boy Scouts have *always* required a loyalty oath to a monotheistic God. This is not something new. They have always explicitly excluded atheists (or anyone uncomfortable with vowing allegiance to "a God". This is not something new. It is fundamental to the organization, as is exclusion of gays. Belonging to a fundamentally bigoted organization and swearing its bigoted oath on a regular basis is condoning institutionalized bigotry.
rationalistDec 24, 2006
Always entertaining to see bigots attempt to communicate.
bariswheelDec 26, 2006
People, when are you going to learn to keep your mouth shut until you know what the hell you're talking about? Aren't you tired to regurgitate what you've heard on the news or make conclusions from stupid hearsay? where's your decency? If you weren't ever in the Boy Scouts you have no grounds to make any statements about the organization whatsoever. I was in the Boy Scouts for 6 years and religion or sex NEVER came up, NEVER. All we did was have fun, go to outings, campouts, 50 mile hikes, mile swims, it was frigging AWESOME, and I would recommend it to any boy out there looking to have fun. It builds character and does you good in many ways.All this pumped up BS news is so that the news organizations can make a buck. So please if you don't have anything to say, STFU.
schnitziDec 26, 2006
>If you weren't ever in the Boy Scouts you have no grounds to make any statements about the organization whatsoever.What an absolutely ridiculous comment to make in a debate about whether the Boy Scouts are *exclusionary*. Maybe you should STFU.
arcticjklDec 27, 2006
I think the argument the scouts are making is...1) We can associate with whomever we want and exclude whomever we want.2) You must say you believe in God in order to be included.3) Since we accept all western faiths we are not a religion but rather an organization of members from many religions. 4) The money we receive from the government does not go to any religion (see #3) it does not violate the establishment clause.Also, I am not sure in this case, but, many land use deals that the scouts have are from the 1920's when rich patrons donated land to the cities but required that the scouts be allowed use the land. The Hollywood bowl was donated by a Christian group to the city but they made the city promise to let them use it for Easter services. It never occurred to them that the city would be sued over this later.
jiggleflopDec 31, 2006
@ratioalistNot quite right on this one..."I have been on "mission trips" with Christian organizations, and they are often allowed to use public schools for lodging. "If that happens on US territory, that is actually illegal, a violation of the Constitution of the United States of America.Of course, many local governments do this on a regular basis - but it is still unconstitutional.Using public schools for Christian purposes in the US is not "unconstitutional" ie, Christian student union, Coalition of Christian Athletes, and student run Christian Clubs. Christians do have the right to pray in public school and use school facilities with the schools permission.I am a atheist and have seen this many times on the American Atheist website. Schools can not "constitutionally" refuse Atheist, Muslim, etc. services or facilities because they are non-christian. Schools can refuse to help any group based on their written school policies, but they can not discriminate because its a ethnic, faith, or political group. I have to keep up with my Christian friends when I get the "It's illegal for my kid to pray in public school" crap by asking them to show me one kid who ever got arrested for praying. Its just unconstitutional to make kids pray, there is no law saying you must utter "One nation under god" during the pledge.Individual interpretation of constitutional church-state separation varies between states, and when a conflict happens it is taken to the school board, state government, and when necessary, the supreme court.I have seen several cases of "one nation under god" go to the courts and not one has ever won, at least not without being over turned.Christians can not be refused services or assistance just because its a public school, Muslims, Atheist, Blacks, Whites, Homosexuals, etc are entitled to the same services and assistance.Like it or not, state constitutions work both ways.
atavistJan 24, 2007
As if the rules even work. My boyfriend is an Eagle Scout.