guardian.co.uk — The uncoupling of American evangelism from the administration of George Bush gathered pace yesterday when one of the largest national umbrella groups of socially conservative Christians issued a statement critical of US policy towards detainees and repudiating torture as a tactic in the war on terror.
Mar 13, 2007 View in Crawl 4
waroxMar 14, 2007
fox,Except for your original comment, I think it's a travesty that there are negative diggs in this thread. It's too easy to click the thumbs down button to hide comments that are well written but clash with the burier's beliefs.I agree with 99% of what you say. The lack of scientific debate, the adherence to backwards morals of eons past, and self-righteous xenophobic attitudes makes me despise Christianity as much as you.There is a certain percentage of Christians who are just as you say - ignorant and inflexible to the point of maddening insanity. Their self-inflicted brainwashing does nothing but damage society just as fundamental muslim terrorism does. And, yes, it is completely ridiculous that they can not see that their Christian fundamentalism completely and perfectly mirrors Muslim fundamentalism. It would serve us all well to marginalize them and confront their hypocrisies and overwhelming lack of ethics. My 1% beef, though, involves what you're trying to do when you respond to Christians. If your motivation is to vent, you're doing well, but I think discourse of this nature needs to have a different motivation and different goals. I am of the opinion that they need to be converted (or de-converted if you will). That becomes impossible if you're putting all believers in this fundamentalist category. In my opinion, a lot of Christians are conflicted and only adhere to their religions because they can't or refuse to grasp the idea of not having a God or a guiding light to their moral behavior. Like the easy way out in school when most people want a study guide to show them the important stuff, people need a study guide to understand what life is about and why the hell we all are here. They need the easy answer, and miss the point that it's a constant education process with no final quiz or right answer. That is a failing of humanity, I think, that we're all prone to. Laziness rules, even in my own life (as I post repeatedly on digg and procrastinate on this SQL project). In your postings, laziness rules because you see a Christian post and you have to attack them as if they were culpable for all the failings of Christianity rather than try to reason them into your point of view.It takes a significant amount of effort to convince people to think differently, just at it takes a damn good teacher to actually teach to a student and not just outline the chapter and give the review questions. I realize on digg it's practically impossible to do that because people come here for the flame wars and the funny pictures, not the intelligent discourse. I suppose I'm being to harsh on someone who I agree with, and not harsh enough on some of these Christians trying to justify their hypocritic leaders. My whole point is that I think we have the same goals, and blanket statements and vitriol won't convince anyone to change. I want to convince them to change. I want you to convince them too. Anyway, good chats, I've decided to friend you after all.
carpespasmMar 14, 2007
mistshadow2k4, you give me hope that the people of our country may yet find common ground and stop with this my side or theirs, us vs them mentality
Closed AccountMar 14, 2007
@fox:?In a progressively more secularized world it sometimes seems that the only religious people out there are fanatics.?This statement alone proves that you are ill equipped to provide an educated and informed opinion on the matter, if for no other reason then your tendency to make unsupported statements of fact which continue throughout your posts.While the tiny enclave that comprises your world may indeed be ?progressively more secularized?, the REAL world at large is not. Counting the planet Earth in its entirety, the percentage of humans who count themselves as adherents to a religious doctrine hovers around 85% of the total earthly population. In the United States specifically, somewhere on the order of 85-90% of the population would call themselves religious. Belief in a ?higher power? treads at about 90% as well. The undeniable truth is that the vast majority of world citizens label themselves as religious and you immediately equate them with fanaticism, which is beyond all grasps of logic. Your beliefs in this matter seem to be based entirely on information obtained from a media industry that wholesales the kind of sensationalism that presents any fanaticism as both normal and endemic, making you nothing more then a cultural parrot, mindlessly restating images the television has fed your eyes.You state that any atrocity in the world is backed by some scripture spouting nutbar, but you ignore the fact that EVERY atrocity in the history of the world has been backed by some man who has abused a power structure to the detriment of another group of people. It doesn?t matter if it?s Christianity, Communism, Capitalism, Nazism, Feudalism, or racial oppression, evil men always cloak their will within the doctrine of popular culture.You look to the heart of any atrocity and you see the heart of man, not the heart of religion.The remainder of your post is comprised entirely of baseless statements that have no grounding in reality, thereby further impairing any sense of value you could add to the discussion. You have absolutely zero understanding of Christian philosophy and no knowledge of Islam beyond what has been reported on cable news, and yet you use this astounding lack of knowledge to draw parallels between two hypothetical sects and thus slander three and a half billion people.Your opinions are myopic and intellectually prepubescent if for no other reason then the fact that your prejudices and lack of exposure prevent any measure of cultural empathy with which you could deliver a reasoned assessment.
Closed AccountMar 14, 2007
@fox:What am I saying?I’m saying that you would do well to actually put some thought into these issues before you attempt to debate them publicly. There are a number of valid arguments as to why a person would think there doesn’t need to be a deity in their lives.There are a number of valid arguments as to why the socially indoctrinated tenants of any specific religion could be used to negatively impact the minority.There are a number of arguments as to why a historically stringent belief system can stifle progressive the thoughts that might improve life for all mankind.The problem is that you use the most ill considered concepts to try and advance an argument that you don’t even fundamentally understand. You point to obscure scripture as evidence of biblical hypocrisy. You reference fanatical religious concepts that are not widely accepted by the masses as evidence of the archaic state of faith.Most egregious of all is that you slander an incredibly diverse field of belief with the most inanely absolutist statements. Christians don’t want women to have power, Christians are for the death penalty, Christians are isolationists, Christians are xenophobic, Christians are luddites, Christians are in favor of Christian law over governmental law, Christians don’t believe in science.Not only are all these statements untrue for the majority of Christians, some of them are logically incompatible with the basic tenants of Christianity, making it even more easy to completely discount everything you write.Your abundance of opinion is nourished only through a drought of knowledge, and that unquenchable thirst to pass judgment on those you don’t wish to understand makes your beliefs more insidiously dangerous then any misused religion in the history of mankind.
rstevensMar 14, 2007
So USA Christianity doesn't endorse "Torture thy neighbor"? Who then are these few Christian extremists that don't represent the rest majority?
Closed AccountMar 14, 2007
Associating Ted Bundy with fundamental Christian terrorism is, to put it nicely, a load of crap. The Unabomber was hardly Christian, he was a Luddite terrorist.-----------------------------------------------Lets go back a little farther shall we?NOTHING positive to any of the societies Christianity infects correlates to Christianity.Christians commit the vast majority of all crime in the United States.And let us not forget Christianity's long, bloody history...The CrusadesThe 500 years of InquisitionsThe pillage, rape, torture and murder of the AztecsThe murder of every Indian on CubaThe genocide against the American IndianThe worlds' most famous Christian Adolf Hitler and his Christian Nazis, the 6 million they killed in the Holocaust, and the 35 million who died as a result of the World War they launchedChristian-sponsored genocide in RwandaJim Jones and his Kool-Aid PartyIt's time to end the madness, folks.
actorboyMar 15, 2007
@foxifiednutjobBlocked for being the Fred Phelps of atheism. Your ranting intolerance, illustrated here and in your 21 other posts to this article, is as repugnant as the type of fundamentalism you rail against. Come back when you can engage in a thoughtful, concise dialogue. Until then, you only serve to prove that there are assh**es on both sides of the argument. Fortunately, I won?t have to see it.
Closed AccountMar 15, 2007
"Come back when you can engage in a thoughtful, concise dialogue. Until then, you only serve to prove that there are assh**es on both sides of the argument."-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------Eat my shorts
Closed AccountMar 15, 2007
"I don?t need you to admit that you are my intellectual inferior. Your words have proven the fact quite successfully, now crawl back into your parent?s basement and live to troll another day."-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------Having a debate about the Bible, Christianity, or ancient history with a Christian, is kinda like playing one-on-one basketball with a retarded person. Even though you beat the stew out of them with facts, in the end they are still retarded
mgriSep 4, 2007
The Bush agenda is very aligned with the Christian Right (e.g. anti separation of christian church and state, anti stem cell research, anti-gay, anti-abortion, anti right to die, pro-crusade style war) . I really don't think it's a ridiculous generalization to say that Christian philosophy supports Bush's agenda. I've never a met an American christian who isn't a bush supporter. Granted that doesn't mean all christians are Bush supporters but dont try to tell me that the neocons and the christian right are willing bedfellows. God Bless America.
revspitzJan 3, 2009
Any coward who supports abortion has the blood of babies on their hands.SAY THIS PRAYER: Dear Jesus, I am a sinner and am headed to eternal hell because of my sins. I believe you died on the cross to take away my sins and to take me to heaven. Jesus, I ask you now to come into my heart and take away my sins and give me eternal life. <a class="user" href="http://www.armyofgod.com">http://www.armyofgod.com</a>