latimes.com — For those outside the faith, the depth of the church's dilemma can be explained this way: Imagine if DNA evidence revealed that the Pilgrims didn't sail from Europe to escape religious persecution but rather were part of a migration from Iceland ? and that U.S. history books were wrong.
Feb 16, 2006 View in Crawl 4
dirtyfratboyFeb 17, 2006Submitter
@rustinit's DNA?
jtrayFeb 17, 2006
Wow whoever wrote that article has major issues. What he or she writes is true "A few years ago, Loayza said, his faith was shaken and his identity stripped away by DNA evidence showing that the ancestors of American natives came from Asia, not the Middle East" there were people in the America's well before Lehi showed up. So yes it very well could be true that any number of races could have migrated to the Americas. For any person who thinks that starting in 600 BC the first human set foot in the Americas is sadly mistaken. What I find funny is that for over 175 years people have tried to discredit the book of mormon and yet it takes only 2 minutes to discredit virtually every point in this article.
Closed AccountFeb 17, 2006
For all the claims that my comments don't shake you, you sure do feel the need to censor them!!! It's quite annoying to have to repost data. No one has been able to defend the Mormon faith against my posts, and that it why they are being censored. Now seriously, examine yourselves. Your faith fails you, I believe, or else you would 1) not censor opposition and 2) be able to defend yourself!For those of you who've already read these comments, I apologize, but someone has been censoring information on here, and I feel it necessary to repost the information:"Pushing" your religion isn't a bad thing. Well, maybe it is.But PULLING is ok. Jude 1:27 "And others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire; hating even the garment spotted by the flesh."Preaching isn't forcing others to agree with you. At least, it shouldn't be. In Christianity, faith in Christ is the only way to escape damnation. Telling other people that is a form of love, not hate.First, let's get past the nice, family-oriented people that come to visit our homes. Any religion can put on a facade, intentionally or not. Mormons are truly deceived people who believe they are doing Christ's work, while in reality they are doing a massive amount of harm to Christ's true cause. They are not intentionally Christ's enemies.Galatians 1:6-8"I am amazed that you are so quickly deserting Him who called you by the grace of Christ, for a different gospel; which is really not another: only there are some who are disturbing you and want to distort the gospel of Christ. But even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to what we have preached to you, he is to be accursed!"The Greek word used for "accursed" is the strongest possible term "anathema", which means "under the divine curse". To emphasize, Paul repeats in verse 9:"As we have said before, so I say again now, if any man is preaching to you a gospel contrary to what you received, he is to be accursed!"It's an interesting verse when applied to Mormonism, which started in 1820 when "messengers from heaven" supposedly visited Joseph Smith Jr. and told him things which were directly contradictory to the Bible.The Law of Eternal Progression is the major heresy of the LDS church:As man it, God once was, and as God is, man may become.Sound familiar? Yeah, you know, like what Satan wanted? To become God? Now he's got others believing it. Mormons believe in huge numbers of planets in space ruled by men-gods who were once like us.There's a movie called "The God Makers", and this is the script that basically sums up much of Mormon doctrine in simple terms for people:"Mormonism teaches that trillions of planets scattered throughout the cosmos are ruled by countless gods who once were human like us.They say that long ago on one of these planets, to an unidentified god and one of his goddess wives, a spirit child named Elohim was conceived. This spirit child was later born to human parents who gave him a physical body.Through obedience to Mormon teaching, death, and resurrection, he proved himself worthy and was elevated to godhood as his father before him.Mormons believe that Elohim is their heavenly Father and that he lives with his many wives on a planet near a mysterious star called Kolob. Here the god of Mormonism and his wives, though endless celestial sex, produced billions of spirit children.To decide their destiny, the head of the Mormon gods called a great heavenly council meeting. Both of Elohim's eldest sons were there, Lucifer and his brother Jesus.A plan was presented to build planet Earth, where the spirit children would be sent to take on mortal bodies and learn good from evil. Lucifer stood and made his bid for becoming savior of this new world. Wanting the glory for himself, he planned to force everyone to become gods. Opposing the idea, the Mormon Jesus suggested giving man his freedom of choice, as on other planets. The vote that followed approved the proposal of the Mormon Jesus, who would become savior of the planet Earth.Enraged, Lucifer cunningly convinced one-third of the spirits destined for Earth to fight with him and revolt. Thus Lucifer became the devil and his followers the demons. Sent to this world in spirit form, they would forever be denied bodies of flesh and bone."I'm gonna do this thing in multiple posts to make sure it all fits..."Those who remained neutral in the battle were cursed to be born with black skin. This is the Mormon explanation for the Negro race. The spirits that fought most valiantly against Lucifer would be born into Mormon families on planet Earth. There would be the lighter-skinned people, or "white and delightsome," as the Book of Mormon describes them.Early Mormon prophets taught that Elohim and one of his goddess wives came to Earth as Adam and Eve to start the human race. Thousands of years later, Elohim in human form once again journeyed to Earth from the star base Kolob, this time to have physical relations with the Virgin Mary in order to provide Jesus with a physical body.Mormon Apostle Orson Hyde taught that after Jesus Christ grew to manhood he took at least three wives: Mary, Martha, and Mary Magdalene. Through these wives the Mormon Jesus supposedly fathered a number of children before he was crucified. Mormon founder Joseph Smith is supposedly one of his decendants.According to the Book of Mormon, after his resurrection Jesus came to the Americas to preach to the Indians, who the Mormons believe are really Israelites. Thus the Jesus of Mormonism established his church in the Americas as he had in Palestine. By the year 421 A.D., the dark-skinned Israelites, known as the Lamanites, had destroyed all of the white-skinned Nephites in a number of great battles. The Nephites' records were supposedly written on golden plates buried in the Hill Cumorah by Moroni, the last living Nephite.About 1400 years later a young treasure-seeker named Joseph Smith, who was known for his tall tales, claimed to bave uncovered the same golden plates near his home in upstate New York. He is now honored by Mormons as a prophet because he claimed to have had visions from the spirit world in which he was commanded to organize the Mormon Church because all Christian creeds were an abomination. It was Joseph Smith who originated most of these peculiar doctrines which millions today believe to be true.By maintaining a rigid code of financial and moral requirements, and through performing secret temple rituals for themselves and the dead, the Latter-day Saints hope to prove their worthiness and thus become gods. The Mormons teach that everyone must stand at the final judgement before Joseph Smith, the Mormon Jesus, and Elohim.Those Mormons who are sealed in the eternal marriage ceremony in LDS temples expect to become polygamous gods of their goddess wives in the Celestial Kingdom, rules over other planets, and spawn new families throughout eternity. The Mormons thank God for Joseph Smith, who claimed that he had done more for us than any other man, including Jesus Christ. The Mormons claim that he died as a martyr, shedding his blood for us so that we too may become gods."That's the core of Mormon doctrine. now, for the rebuking of one of Satan's most popular cults...To Mormons, Christ isn't The Way, merely pointed the way for us. Mormons believe that once Jesus (the god of the Old Testament) took physical form, he had to earn his salvation through works in the flesh, JUST AS WE HAVE TO. Mormons believe that Jesus suffered in the Garden of Gethsemane so that we could be saved, conditional on our obedience to the laws and ordinances of the LDS church. His death provided GENERAL salvation, through which we will ALL be resurrected and judged BY OUR WORKS. However, Corinthians 2 insists that Jesus removed laws and ordinances that were against us, nailing them to the cross.Mormons don't put crosses in their churches. They can't deal with Christ's gift of grace. Another interesting point: Mormons use water for communion. Jesus is only a savior to Mormons in that by him we can use secret keys, handgrips, and passwords (learned in Mormon Temple) to ensure safe passage through the doorway to godhood.Proverbs 14:12 "There is a way which seems right to a man, But its end is the way of death."The Mormons are like those spoke of in Romans 10:1-3 "Brethren, my heart's desire and my prayer to God for them is for their salvation. For I testify about them that they have zeal for God, but not in accordance with knowledge. For not knowing about God's righteousness and seeking to establish their own, they did not subject themselves to the righteousness of God."The Mormons believe God the Father has a physical body. They teach that God was evolved from mortal man to become a man-god. They teach polytheism. Mormons are each striving to become gods themselves."God was once as we are now, an exalted man, and sits enthroned in yonder heavens. I say if you were to see him today you would see him like a man in form like yourselves and all the person and image of man. I am going to tell you how God came to be God. We have imagined that God was God from all eternity. I will refute that idea and take away the veil. God was once a man like us and dwelt on an earth, the same as Jesus Christ did, and you have got to learn to be gods yourselves the same as all gods before you. Namely by going from one small degree to another, from a small capacity to a greater one."-Joseph Smith"The Lord created you and me for the purpose of becoming gods like himself. We are created to become gods like unto our father in heaven. Gods exist and we had better strive to become one with them.... A plurality of gods exist, indeed this doctrine of plurality of gods is so comprehensive and glorious that it reaches out and embraces every exalted personage. Those who attain exaltation are gods."- Brigham YoungThese doctrines are still taught today.Journal of Discourses and Doctrine of Covenants both teach these same things.The Bible disagrees that God has a physical body:John 4:22-24 "You worship what you do not know; we worship what we knkow, for salvation is from the Jews. But an hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for such people the Father seeks to be His worshipers. God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.""Spirit" is clearly described in Luke 24:37-40"But they were startled and frightened and thought that they were seeing a spirit. And He said to them, "Why are you troubled, and why do doubts arise in your hearts? See My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself; touch Me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see that I have." And when He had said this, He showed them His hands and His feet.Le Grand Richards, an elderly apostle of the LDS church, once tried to prove that God was a man in heaven with flesh and bone body. He started with Matthew 16:13, and ON NATIONAL TELEVISION, WENT TO SILENCE as he read further to verse 17...which just disproved what he had been trying to prove.In verse 13, Jesus asks, "Who do people say that the Son of Man is?"Matthew 16:16,17"Simon Peter answered, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God." And Jesus said to him, "Blessed are you, Simon Bar-jona, because flesh and blood did not reveal this to you, but My Father who is in heaven."I get a kick out of that.Mormons say God is a finite man, but the Bible ONCE AGAIN disagrees. Sorry for the sarcasm.Numbers 23:19 says "God is not man, that he should like, nor a son of man, that he should change his mind."Hosea 11:9 says "I am God, and not man--the Holy One among you."Malachi 3:6 says "I the Lord do not change."Psalm 90:2 says "From everlasting to everlasting you are God."Not only do I think the Mormon god is a load of crap, but read Romans 1:22,23,25:"Although they claim to be wise, they became fools and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like mortal man.... They exchanged the truth of God for a lie."Ouch. *ahem* Mormons, anyone?Oh, and about there being more than one god:Isaiah 44:6 "This is what the Lord says--Israel's King and Redeemer, the Lord Almighty: "I am the first and I am the last; apart from me there is no God"Isaiah 44:8 "Is there any God besides me? No, there is no other Rock; I know not one"Isaiah 45:5 "I am the Lord, and there is no other; apart from me, there is no God"Isaiah 45:14 "Surely God is with you, and there is no other; there is no other god"Isaiah 45:21 "There is no God apart from me, a righteous God and a Savior, and there is no other"Isaiah 45:22 "Turn to me and be saved, all you ends of the earth; for I am God, and there is no other"Isaiah 46:5 "To whom will you compare me or count me equal? To whom will you liken me that we may be compared?"Isaiah 46:9 "Remember the former things, those of long ago; I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like me!"God destroyed the nations of Israel for belief in polytheism. The same for when God destroyed Judah.The very core of Mormon doctrine is the belief that we can become gods. PATHETIC."You are my witnesses," declares the Lord, "and my servant whom I have chosen, so that you may know and believe me and understand that I am he. Before me no god was formed, nor will there be one after me" Isaiah 43:10I've got more, but I better post this now.Now, for Joseph Smith.There's too much stuff that I dug up on Joseph Smith, so I can't go into all of it. He was known for digging for buried treasure and for using occult seeking stones to divine for hidden treasure. Michael Quinn (ex-professor of History at BYU) wrote a book called Early Mormonism in the Magic World View, which talked all about Smith's background. Because of it, he's no longer with BYU.Joseph Smit said he went into the woods once to pray to God about which Christian church was right and which one he should join. He recorded this in his own words, and that story is now considered by the LDS church to be scripture and is in The Pearl of Great Price. Here's a quote from chapter 2 of that book of heresy:"I knelt down and began to offer up the desire of my heart to God. I had scarcely done so when immediately I was seized upon by some power which entirely overcame me and had such an astonishing influence over me as to bind my tongue so that I could not speak.Thick darkness gathered around me and it seemed to me for a time as if I were doomed to sudden destruction. But exerting all my powers to call upon God to deliver me out of the power of this enemy which had seized upon me and at the very moment when I was ready to sink into despair and abandon myself to destruction--not to an imaginary ruin, but to the power of some actual being from the unseen world, who had such marvelous powers as I never before felt in any being--just at this moment of great alarm, I saw a piller of light exactly over my head, above the brightness of the sun, which descended gradually until it fell upon me. It no sooner appeared that I found myself delivered from the enemy which held me bound. When the light rested upon me I saw two Personages, whose brightness and glory defy all descriptions, standing above me in the air. One of them spake unto me, calling my by name and said pointing to the other--"this is my beloved son, hear him."My object in going to inquire of the Lord was to know which of all the Christian churches or sects was right that I might know which to join. No sooner, therefore, did I get possession of myself so as to be able to speak, than I asked the Personages who stood above me in the light which of all the sects was right and which I should join."Joseph Liar...I mean...Smith...wrote this:"I was answered that I must join none of them, for that were all wrong; and the Personage who addressed me said that all of their creeds were an abomination in his sight, and that all their teachers were corrupt."So, what, the Triune God and salvation in Jesus Christ...this is all an ABOMINATION?!Not to be ironic here again, but I thought you should all know who Smith talked to...if he did in fact talk to anyone:2 Corinthians 11:2-5,13-15"I am jealous for you with a godly jealousy. I promised you to one husband, to Christ, so that I might present you as a pure virgin to him. But I am afraid that just as Eve was deceived by the serpent's cunning, your minds may somehow be led astray from your sincere and pure devotion to Christ. For if someone comes to you and preaches a Jesus other than the Jesus we preached, of if you receive a different spirit from the one you received, or a different gospel from the one you accepted, you put up with it easily enough.For such men are false apostles, deceitful workmen, masquerading as apostles of Christ. And no wonder, for Satan himself mesquerades as an angel of light. It is not surprising, then, if his servants masquerade as servants of righteousness. Their end will be what their actions deserve."Gee, it almost sounds like the Bible is warning us about, say, Mormonism? Sorry if that sounds rude, but the Bible doesn't just happen to say these things. God knew what would happen in the future, and I would venture to say that He was protecting us from THIS VERY CULT.The Mormon church claims the Smith was a prophet. They claim that they get a "burning in the bosom" that Smith is a true prophet. People pray and ask God to give them this revelation, and either get the burning feeling or visits from dead ancastors telling them that Mormonism is true. For real, that's a little wacky.Psalm 145:18"The Lord is near to all who call on him, to all who call on him in truth""All who call on him in truth." Kind of important. See, according to the Bible, we're not supposed to pray about a prophet being true or false, but we are to test him ACCORDING TO THE WRITTEN WORD OF GOD. Mormons neglect this, which is a large problem. Obviously.Missionaries are UNABLE to give you a list of prophecies about Joseph Smith. Go ahead, ask one of them when you see them on the street or (heaven forbid) at your front door.The LDS church can't give you a single prophecy, even though the church is supposedly led by a living prophet that these prophecies (which they don't have any) are the single most important aspect of the "restored gospel". Actually, they came up with a few "prophecies", but out of the 65-70 that were recorded, the church only passed 5 or 6.Deuteronomy 18:20-22"A prophet who presumes to speak in my name anything I have not commanded him to say, or a prophet who speaks in the name of other gods, must be put to death. You may say to yourselves, "How can we know when a message has not been spoken by the Lord?" If what a prophet proclaims in the name of the Lord does not take place or come true, that is a message the Lord has not spoken. That prophet has spoken presumptuously. Do not be afraid of him."In Hebrews chapter 1, the Bible says that in times PAST God spoke through holy men and prophets, but that today He speaks to us by HIS SON!So, in conclusion, instead of giving my normal attitude of impatience, I leave you with a final scripture:Galatians 2:16"A man is not justified by observing the lew, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we too have put our faith in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by observing the law, because by observing the law no one will be justified."***********************************************************************Ok. As requested, a better posting of Mormon beliefs and defense of the Truth (which disagrees with Mormonism):The Latter-day Saints have two major groups: The Church of Jesus Christ of Letter-day Saints (Mormons) and The Reorganized Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (this one is headquartered in Missouri). We’ll focus mostly on the former “Mormons”. According to Ensign Magazine, May 1995, 22, the Mormons have a membership in excess of 9 million, though that number has surely increased in the last 8 years. The missionary force, as of 1995, was composed of 75% single males, 19% single females, and 6% married couples. The Mormon church boasts a conversion rate of about 300,000 per year.Taken from Arizona Republic (a newspaper) in 1991, from their series Mormon Inc. Finances & Faith:The Mormon church “collects about $4.3 billion from its members a year plus $400 million from its many enterprises.” …”Only a few church officials know how the money is spent.” There are about 50 temples and 2 BYU campuses (as of 1995) which I’m sure this money has gone into.Joseph Smith once said, “No man know my history,” which led many to research his “unknown” history. People found his adventures with seeking stones, treasure digging, financial schemes, and even his adultery before he was supposedly prophecied to about polygamy. At another time, Smith claimed that “the Book of Mormon is the most correct of any book on the earth,” and both Christians and Mormons alike have refuted this claim. Smith also said, “I have more to boast of than ever any mad had. I am the only man that has ever been able to keep a whole church together since the days of Adam. A large majority of the whole have stood by me. Neither Paul, Peter, nor Jesus ever did it. I boast that no man ever did such a work as I. The followers of Jesus ran away from Him; but the Latter-day Saints never ran away from me yet”. You can read about these lies in Hugh Nibley’s “The Myth Makers”, published in 1958, and in the official History of the Church (6:408-409).LDS CHURCH HISTORYJoseph Smith was born in Sharon, VT, 1805 (December 23, if you care). He was the fourth child of Lucy and Joseph. His father spent much of his time digging for imaginary buried treasure. Most Mormons know and acknowledge this fact. D. M. Quinn, who I mentioned in my last set of posts, wrote about the two treasure seekers in this Early Mormonism and the Magic World View (published in 1987). An exerpt:“Joseph Smith, the founding prophet and president of the new church organized on 6 April 1830, had unquestionably participated in treasure-seeking and seer-stone divination and had apparently also used divining rods, talismans, and implements of ritual magic. His father, one of the Eight Witnesses to the divinity of the Book of Mormon and later the church patriarch, had also participated in divining and the quest for treasure.” On page 207 you read about how even after he became president of the LDS church, Smith still was interested in treasure-seeking. It says also that “occult dimensions of treasure digging was prominent among the first members of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles, organized in 1835.” There’s even photographs of Smith’s stones in this book, guys. Quinn was excommunicated from the LDS church in 1993 after exposing his research and refusing to keep it secret. I don’t have these, but The Story of the Latter-day Saints by J. B. Allen and G. M. Leonard (the revised version) discuss Smith’s “youthful experiments with treasure-seeking.” There’s a bunch of newer Mormon publications that have finally started to admit to Smith’s past.Lucy Smith—Joe Jr.’s mom—“authored” Biographical Sketches of Joseph Smith and His Progenitors for Many Generations. Brigham Young contested the publishing of this book (it was published by the LDS church) in a letter dated January 31, 1885, which you can find in the Millenial Star (October 21, 1885). The book, I believe, was actually written by Martha Jane Coray, in accordance with Lucy Smith. The Mormons claim that they alone represent true Christianity (they’re not Christian at all), based largely on the revelations Smith had as he prayed in the wood. The Pearl of Great Price (History 1:1-25) has Smith’s recording of the “revelation”. Apostle Bruce McConkie wrote Mormon Doctrine, in which he said, “Mormonism is Christianity; Christianity is Mormonism…Mormons are true Christians.” The Apostle Dallin Oaks said that the differences between “other Christian churches” and the LDS church “explain why we send missionaries to other Christians.” (Ensign, May 1995) After his supposed revelation, it’s a nice note that Smith went back to treasure-seeking with stones, rods, and just plain digging.Smith of course denied his treasure-seeking later in life. “In the month of October, 1825, I hired with an old gentleman by the name of Josiah Stoal, who lived in Chenango County, State of New York. He had heard something of a silver mine having been opened by the Spaniards in Harmony, Susquehanna County, State of Pennsylvania; and had, previous to my hiring him, been digging in order, if possible, to discover the mine. After I went to live with him, he took me, with the rest of his hands, to dig for the silver mine, at which I continued to work for nearly a month, without success in our undertaking, and finally I prevailed with the old gentleman to cease digging after it. Hence arose the very prevalent story of my having been a money-digger.” Joseph Smith wrote that in History (1:55). In reality, Stoal “came for Joseph on account of having heard that he possessed certain means by which he could discern things invisible to the natural eye.” (History of Joseph Smith by His Mother, 91-92) There is further proof that Smith indeed was guilty of the treasure-seeking rumors, which he even once claimed supernatural powers aided him in. In an interview with Joseph Smith Senior published in Historical Magazine, May 1870, Smith Sr. said that his son had been a treasure-digger in his youth and used peep-stones, even claiming to read fortunes. To support his account, John A. Clark testified: “Long before the idea of a Golden Bible entered their minds, in their excursions for money digging…Joe used to be usually their guide, putting into a hat a peculiar stone he had through which he looked to decide where they should begin to dig.” After extensive research in the Smith’s own family neighborhood, that was published in Clark’s Gleanings by the Way. In New York vs. Joseph Smith, a hearing dated March 20, 1826, it was revealed that Smith “had a certain stone which he had occasionally looked at to determine where hidden treasures in bowels of the earth were…and had looked for Mr. Stoal several times.” Smith was found guilty of money-digging. (Frazers Magazine, February 1873) Incase you’re wondering, peep-stone gazing was illegal in the 1820s. A copy of the original court bill is reproduced in The Maze of Mormonism by Walter Martin (published in 1978).Smith claimed in 1820 to have had a vision that showed him he was the Lord’s prophet for this dispensation. Moroni (an angel) apparently appeared at Smith’s bedside in 1823, which started the “Golden Plates” thing (which became the Book of Mormon). The Pearl of Great Price (History, 1:29-54) is Smith’s account of the revelation. Supposedly Moroni appeared at Smith’s bedside and stated 3 times his commission to Smith. Joseph Smith didn’t write all this down until 3 years afterwards, but even that doesn’t explain a huge mistake he made. In the 1851 edition of Pearl of Great Price, Smith calls the messenger Nephi—an ENTIRELY different character in the Book of Mormon. Of course, some Mormons fixed this contradiction up, seeing as how Smith, Young, and others couldn’t explain it. In the new editions, the visitor is identified as Moroni. Which, apparently, Mormons don’t care which one it was, or the fact that Smith confused the two entirely different characters.The church tries to deny this mistake as part of their history, but it is in the handwritten manuscripts of the Mormon Church history, which was supervised by Smith himself. Mormonism—Shadow or Reality (1987, fifth edition) has a reproduction of this manuscript. In 1842, Smith once again oversaw the publishing of the history of Mormonism, where Nephi is still identified as the angel (Times and Seasons, volume 3). The first edition of the Pearl of Great Price (published in 1851) contained the identification of Nephi as well.Smith claimed to have received the golden tablets in 1827, which supposedly contained the Book of Mormon. Smith supposedly translated the “reformed Egyptian” on these tablets which he found in the hill Cumorah near Palmyra, NY, by use of “Urim and Thummim,” some miraculous spectacles, which the angel Moroni (or is it Nephi?) had previously given Smith. I’ll talk more about this later, but, you can guess the plot if you think about Joseph Smith’s character. It’s interesting, though, that Reformed Egyptian has never been seen by any philologist or Egyptologist who has even been asked about it.Smith supposedly translated the plates from 1827 to 1829, when Oliver Cowdery visited with Smith at his father-in-law’s house and was converted to Mormonism. He was one of the “scribes” who wrote down what Smith “translated”. While Smith and the scribes were separated by a curtain. This all is found in Pearl of Great Price (Hisotry, 1:68-73). After this, Oliver baptized Joe, and vice versa. The two prophecied future events together which “shortly come to pass”. Smith was careful not to be specific about these prophecies, because, as was brought to light, they were often shown to be false. Smith went to New York to finish the “translation”, which was publish as the Book of Mormon in 1830. On April 6, 1830, Smith and his brothers Hyrum and Samuel, Cowdery, and David and Peter Whitmer (who’s house he stayed at in New York), official founded The Church of Christ (renamed Church of Latter-day Saints in 1834, then Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints in 1838)."Wow, too many relevant comments were given a negative rating in this thread."In a previous thread, the Mormons censored some comments I and another individual made (one was a reference to the Google Video link about DNA vs The Book of Mormon). I ended up getting banned because enough of them reported me, and thankfully Digg let me back on.Yes, relevant comments are censored a lot. It sucks. That's what people need to do, though, when the facts are against them: silence the facts.@jbosargeYes, we know you have a story about someone changing to Mormonism. I have stories about Mormons being born again. Your stories prove nothing.
akira117Feb 17, 2006
Just show what religion id based on...BS!
jbosargeFeb 18, 2006
@bereanYou haven't said one thing that I haven't heard before. Like I said: a waste of time. The danger is only in your head and I have no desire to help you "recover". But, here in Utah there is an Anti-Mormon Outreach Foundation that has been set up for people just like you to help them get over their hatred for Joseph Smith. I understand they are working on a Website soon but it's not active yet. But keep checking:RecoveringAntis.com and AntiMormonOutreach.comYou may be able to get help there.
o0joshua0oFeb 28, 2006
Why would someone want to "recover" from their hatred of Joseph Smith? That' s like joining a group to help you get over your hatred of Hitler. It's hilarious how Mormons tend to label anyone who disagrees with them as an "Anti". And I'm not stereotyping. I was unfortunate enough to be raised Mormon.
dougforbesMar 3, 2006
report in the L A Times by William Lobdell (February 6, 2006) asserted that some Mormons were troubled by a 'lack of discernible Hebrew blood in Native Americans". In fact about one third of Native American males selected for DNA research belong to Y chromosome lineage groups commonly found in modern Jews. This includes the Q-P36 lineage group that is ancestral to the primary Native American lineage group Q3. Q-P36 is found in 5% of Ashkenazi Jews [1], 5% of Iraqi Jews [2] and a significant number of Iranian Jews [3]. Other west Eurasian lineages found in Native American test subjects include R, E3b, J, F, G, and I [4]. All of these are also found in modern Jews. The trouble isn't a 'lack of discernible Hebrew blood in Native Americans", but a lack of discernible facts in Lobdell's report.Regards Douglas M Forbes808 Whispering TrailGreenfield IN 46140(812) 330-2252dougtheavenger@sbcglobal.net [1] Behar et al, 2004, Contrasting patterns of Y chromosome variation in Ashkenazi Jewish and host non-Jewish European populations. [2] Shen et al, 2004, Reconstruction of Patrilineages and Matrilineages of Samaritans and Other Israeli Populations From Y-Chromosome and Mitochondrial DNA Sequence Variation.[3] Hammer et al, 1999, Jewish and Middle Eastern non-Jewish populations share a common pool of Y-chromosome biallelic haplotypes. [4] Zegura et al, 2004, High-Resolution SNPs and Microsatellite Haplotypes Point to a Single, Recent Entry of Native American Y Chromosomes into the Americas
11hawkinstApr 12, 2007
You know what, there are a lot of things that can be said about a lot of other religions to. I don't see what you guys get out of making fun of Mormons. Why don't you just get a life for the good of mankind! Come on! Are you guys really so low that you have fun mocking 2 million people in the United States! You should be ashamed and think "what if people were making fun of my religion?" I myself am not Mormon, but I am just pointing out that people can believe what they want to believe.
11hawkinstApr 12, 2007
O.K, polygamy is dead in the LDS church. There are other groups that have departed from the LDS church that have no relation to the LDS church whatsoever today.