nytimes.com— After advocating that the church essentially stay out of partisan politics, pastors in his own denomination, the Baptist General Conference, mounted an effort to evict him from the denomination.
Jul 29, 2006View in Crawl 4
Republicans have actively gone after the NAACP using the IRS as a tool to pull thier non-profit status, using political activity as a reason. So- when do we go after the Christian Coalition driven churches who do the same?
The purpose of separation of church and government was not to keep church out of government or government out of church, but to keep one religious system from using government to affect other religious systems.
The Separation of Church and State is one of the big things that separate a democratic country from a communist country. in a communist country, there are churches, but the government tells them what they can/can't/must say. in a country with this idea of separation of church and state, the church is independent of the state. I do consent and agree that the church should not be a place where politics are "preached" but members of that church are free to vote for who they want. being a Christian does NOT mean you have a certain viewpoint on politics, it DOES mean you have a set of standards that generally guide you towards a similar decision on politics as other Christians. I say all this to say no, separation of church and state was not primarily meant to keep the church out of the state when it was written. The founding fathers were not envisioning the country becoming a theocracy (which it never has and never will be), but the did envision the possible loss of true religious freedom if the government ever interefered, which is common and was at the time
In 1797, the US Senate unanimously ratified the Treaty of Peace and Friendship with Tripoli. It was then signed by President John Adams. In Article XI, the treaty states, "As the government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian Religion...".And the following quotes are all from Thomas Jefferson:"History, I believe, furnishes no example of a priest-ridden people maintaining a free civil government. This marks the lowest grade of ignorance of which their civil as well as religious leaders will always avail themselves for their own purposes." ~ Thomas Jefferson to Alexander von Humboldt, 1813."In every country and in every age, the priest has been hostile to liberty. He is always in alliance with the despot, abetting his abuses in return for protection to his own." ~ Thomas Jefferson to Horatio G. Spafford, 1814.I have examined all the known superstitions of the world, and I do not find in our particular superstition of Christianity one redeeming feature. They are all alike founded on fables and mythology. Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned. What has been the effect of this coercion? To make one half the world fools and the other half hypocrites; to support roguery and error all over the earth.The Christian god can easily be pictured as virtually the same god as the many ancient gods of past civilizations. The Christian god is a three headed monster; cruel, vengeful and capricious. If one wishes to know more of this raging, three headed beast-like god, one only needs to look at the caliber of people who say they serve him. They are always of two classes; fools and hypocrites. To compel a man to furnish contributions of money for the propagation of opinions which he disbelieves and abhors, is sinful and tyrannical.And there are many more such quotes.
Perhaps sonicdevo, you are familiar with Jefferson's bible? He actually studied Greek and Latin versions of the scriptures, and compared these with the King James version. Ultimately, he took a pair of scissors and cut out the passages from the New Testament he thought to be true and pasted them together to form a bible that he thought was unpolluted by clerics, popes & whatnot. Needless to say, it is a brief volume. Much of this was done with Joseph Priestly, the Unitarian from Philiadelphia who discovered oxygen and left England to avoid religious nit wits. Jefferson did not believe in the divinity of Christ, nor did he believe that he ever walked on water. By no stretch of the imagination could he be considered a Baptist or a Christian by any of the common denominations.
Often, it is a politician's religious beliefs that give them direction. It's impossible to avoid that. Bill Clinton favored the "Don't Ask Don't Tell" policy. It could be argued that this came from his religious values of tolerance. George W Bush promoted "No Child Left Behind." This, too, could stem from religious convictions. Many people believe the Constitution provides separation of Church and State. But, to paraphrase President Bartlet (from TV's 'The West Wing'), the Constitution says nothing about religion and politics.
This kinda cheesed me off...“When we joined years ago, Greg was a conservative speaker,” said William Berggren, a lawyer who joined the church with his wife six years ago. “But we totally disagreed with him on this. You can’t be a Christian and ignore actions that you feel are wrong. A case in point is the abortion issue. If the church were awake when abortion was passed in the 70’s, it wouldn’t have happened. But the church was asleep.”First of all, abortion wasn't 'passed.' In fact, it was because of laws banning abortion that roe v. wade became law. States were bending over to the church back then too, and as such passed all sorts of laws to try and prevent people from getting abortions. These laws were then overturned by the supreme court and so it's through their own folly that abortion law is in it's current state of affairs. Bloody lawyers are stupid.It's like how when Lincoln was elected, all the southern states left the union for fear of him preventing them from taking away their right to own slaves, whereas he knew that he lacked the support to do such a thing and was only trying to prevent slavery from entering the territories. If they had stayed with the union they could've kept slavery going for another generation or so just on it being next to impossible to get anything done in a divided government. But here I am getting off topic. Time to finish reading the article then read people's posts and possibly respond... Just wanted to get that off my chest.
This is correct, as a member of a church within the BGC, I remember this controversy well, the call for eviction came over some writings that Pastor Boyd made concerning God's ability to know the future while he was a teacher at Bethel. The BGC is generally less of a doctrinal organization and more of a lose collaboration of similarly minded churches, but that said, its members run the gauntlet from liberal to conservative, and have a diverse opinion on political matters.
I agree with conservatives on many, but not all, issues. This is one of them. I am not an evangelical; I am a member of a mainline denomination. I don't think churches or religious leaders should stump for candidates or political parties, not in their official capacity as a religious leader.
dreamingthunderJul 30, 2006
>>I think you missed some history.Perhaps this is the history we missed?<a class="user" href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deism">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deism</a>Personally, I find it rather embarrassing that the basic principles upon which our nation was founded still need to be explained to our current leadership.
athyriusJul 30, 2006
Republicans have actively gone after the NAACP using the IRS as a tool to pull thier non-profit status, using political activity as a reason. So- when do we go after the Christian Coalition driven churches who do the same?
hackwrenchJul 30, 2006
The purpose of separation of church and government was not to keep church out of government or government out of church, but to keep one religious system from using government to affect other religious systems.
cds0528Jul 30, 2006
The Separation of Church and State is one of the big things that separate a democratic country from a communist country. in a communist country, there are churches, but the government tells them what they can/can't/must say. in a country with this idea of separation of church and state, the church is independent of the state. I do consent and agree that the church should not be a place where politics are "preached" but members of that church are free to vote for who they want. being a Christian does NOT mean you have a certain viewpoint on politics, it DOES mean you have a set of standards that generally guide you towards a similar decision on politics as other Christians. I say all this to say no, separation of church and state was not primarily meant to keep the church out of the state when it was written. The founding fathers were not envisioning the country becoming a theocracy (which it never has and never will be), but the did envision the possible loss of true religious freedom if the government ever interefered, which is common and was at the time
myexissatanJul 30, 2006
In 1797, the US Senate unanimously ratified the Treaty of Peace and Friendship with Tripoli. It was then signed by President John Adams. In Article XI, the treaty states, "As the government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian Religion...".And the following quotes are all from Thomas Jefferson:"History, I believe, furnishes no example of a priest-ridden people maintaining a free civil government. This marks the lowest grade of ignorance of which their civil as well as religious leaders will always avail themselves for their own purposes." ~ Thomas Jefferson to Alexander von Humboldt, 1813."In every country and in every age, the priest has been hostile to liberty. He is always in alliance with the despot, abetting his abuses in return for protection to his own." ~ Thomas Jefferson to Horatio G. Spafford, 1814.I have examined all the known superstitions of the world, and I do not find in our particular superstition of Christianity one redeeming feature. They are all alike founded on fables and mythology. Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned. What has been the effect of this coercion? To make one half the world fools and the other half hypocrites; to support roguery and error all over the earth.The Christian god can easily be pictured as virtually the same god as the many ancient gods of past civilizations. The Christian god is a three headed monster; cruel, vengeful and capricious. If one wishes to know more of this raging, three headed beast-like god, one only needs to look at the caliber of people who say they serve him. They are always of two classes; fools and hypocrites. To compel a man to furnish contributions of money for the propagation of opinions which he disbelieves and abhors, is sinful and tyrannical.And there are many more such quotes.
noahvailJul 31, 2006
Perhaps sonicdevo, you are familiar with Jefferson's bible? He actually studied Greek and Latin versions of the scriptures, and compared these with the King James version. Ultimately, he took a pair of scissors and cut out the passages from the New Testament he thought to be true and pasted them together to form a bible that he thought was unpolluted by clerics, popes & whatnot. Needless to say, it is a brief volume. Much of this was done with Joseph Priestly, the Unitarian from Philiadelphia who discovered oxygen and left England to avoid religious nit wits. Jefferson did not believe in the divinity of Christ, nor did he believe that he ever walked on water. By no stretch of the imagination could he be considered a Baptist or a Christian by any of the common denominations.
kylebrothertJul 31, 2006
Often, it is a politician's religious beliefs that give them direction. It's impossible to avoid that. Bill Clinton favored the "Don't Ask Don't Tell" policy. It could be argued that this came from his religious values of tolerance. George W Bush promoted "No Child Left Behind." This, too, could stem from religious convictions. Many people believe the Constitution provides separation of Church and State. But, to paraphrase President Bartlet (from TV's 'The West Wing'), the Constitution says nothing about religion and politics.
chicken2niteAug 3, 2006
This kinda cheesed me off...“When we joined years ago, Greg was a conservative speaker,” said William Berggren, a lawyer who joined the church with his wife six years ago. “But we totally disagreed with him on this. You can’t be a Christian and ignore actions that you feel are wrong. A case in point is the abortion issue. If the church were awake when abortion was passed in the 70’s, it wouldn’t have happened. But the church was asleep.”First of all, abortion wasn't 'passed.' In fact, it was because of laws banning abortion that roe v. wade became law. States were bending over to the church back then too, and as such passed all sorts of laws to try and prevent people from getting abortions. These laws were then overturned by the supreme court and so it's through their own folly that abortion law is in it's current state of affairs. Bloody lawyers are stupid.It's like how when Lincoln was elected, all the southern states left the union for fear of him preventing them from taking away their right to own slaves, whereas he knew that he lacked the support to do such a thing and was only trying to prevent slavery from entering the territories. If they had stayed with the union they could've kept slavery going for another generation or so just on it being next to impossible to get anything done in a divided government. But here I am getting off topic. Time to finish reading the article then read people's posts and possibly respond... Just wanted to get that off my chest.
tullj01Aug 4, 2006
This is correct, as a member of a church within the BGC, I remember this controversy well, the call for eviction came over some writings that Pastor Boyd made concerning God's ability to know the future while he was a teacher at Bethel. The BGC is generally less of a doctrinal organization and more of a lose collaboration of similarly minded churches, but that said, its members run the gauntlet from liberal to conservative, and have a diverse opinion on political matters.
killerwaspFeb 12, 2008
I agree with conservatives on many, but not all, issues. This is one of them. I am not an evangelical; I am a member of a mainline denomination. I don't think churches or religious leaders should stump for candidates or political parties, not in their official capacity as a religious leader.