msnbc.msn.com — BMW has announced that it will lease 500 of it's new electric Minis next year, but only in California, New Jersey and New York, and at $850 a month. Is the high lease price worth it for all this electric goodness?
Oct 24, 2008 View in Crawl 4
daveatdigitalOct 26, 2008
What's so bad about hydrogen for energy storage? You can make it at home. <a class="user" href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wVIvsdSyhFY">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wVIvsdSyhFY</a>
apeweekOct 26, 2008
Battery technology is further along than we are being led to believe. NIMH batteries work fine in EVs - see the Toyota RAV 4 EV, for example. The few NIMH-Powered RAV 4 EVs still on the road (from the same era as the GM EV-1) now have up to 125,000 miles on the original battery packs. Of course, now that an oil company owns those patents, these NIMH EV-style batteries are no longer made.The Li-Ion shelf life problem has also been addressed already. LiFePO4 batteries designed for EV use have much longer shelf lives (and much improved safety.) The most advanced automotive lithium batteries on the market, Altairnanos. claim a 20-year shelf life (and a ten-minute recharge time.) Those batteries are used in this vehicle:<a class="user" href="http://phoenixmotorcars.com">http://phoenixmotorcars.com</a>
blakestahOct 27, 2008
Time will tell. Age-dependent, and not cycle-dependent, drops in performance have plagued lithium ion batteries. Great in 1-2 year applications, but a car is a 10-20 year application. There has never been a 10 year lithium ion application to date, or an electric car with proven lithium ion technology - all the good EVs have used NiMH. All the good hybrids too. Lithium ion cost at least twice as much and are less durable (but better energy density). I am very doubtful. I think the newer EVs will simply cost too much because the oil companies control the good cost-benefit technology. The patents will expire in 2015 (7 years), but I would expect the oil companies to use their profits to prevent significant inroads for EVs into the indefinite future - because it is profitable for them to do so. Oil produces 3-4 billion dollars of profit a day. Killing the electric car takes about 2 hours of profit. I would like nothing more than to buy a reasonably priced 100-mile-range electric car right now - if it came with a proven durable battery-pack. Lithium ion (or even LiFePO4) doesn't have a track record in durability, and the element lithium is inherently unstable compared to nickel. OTOH, you can get a nice NiMH from Nilar and roll your own EV, and it works pretty well. Just a lot of time and effort. <a class="user" href="http://ev1.org/chevron.htm">http://ev1.org/chevron.htm</a>
apeweekOct 27, 2008
I also need to point out that Li-Ion batteries - especially the ones designed for automotive use - are definitely not more expensive than NIMHs.Look at the cost comparison chart on this page (for Thunder Sky LiFePO4 batteries). Note also their claim that their batteries are 1/10 the cost of comparable lithiums:<a class="user" href="http://everspring.net/product-battery.htm">http://everspring.net/product-battery.htm</a>As for durability and instability, you are thinking of LiCoO2 lithiums (laptop batteries), not automotive batteries. LiFePO4 batteries are very durable and stable - you can drill right into a functioning battery with no fire or explosion.
blakestahOct 27, 2008
You've been quite helpful, can you point to an example of a hobbyist EV passenger automobile with something comparable to 12,000/yr and >5 yrs on the same LiFePO4 battery pack?
blakestahOct 27, 2008
No, it is not a catch-22. I didn't ask for commercial demonstration to mean commercial viability. I asked for ANY stress test demonstration to support your claim of commercial viability. Five years at 12000 miles per year is a pretty minimal test for a commercial automobile. I mean, a Toyota gas car can do five times that. I was looking through the hobbyist site for someone using it in a real stress test - as a real car. Is there any evidence of anyone using LiFeSO4 or LiPoly batteries at a capacity comparable to a normal passenger car for even a few years? I don't want some hobbyist who set up a battery powered car that can outrace a corvette - just something driven 50 miles a day, 240 days a year, for a few years .As I pointed out, the NiMH have passed with flying colors, but the Lithium batteries lack similar examples. Is there one anywhere?
blakestahNov 2, 2008
I did some more research. Cobasys IS owned by Chevron, DOES have a very strong patent portfolio in the realm of NiMH rechargeables (through 2015), and these batteries DO have a very strong track record in electric cars. And Cobasys will not allow NiMH to go into electric cars.A123 has achieved a few thousand cycle loading on their LiFePO4 batteries, and provides them for DeWalt power tools. Older lithium ions went to marginal capacity in 1-2 years after a powerful start. The fundamental chemistry of lithium doesn't change, but they may last longer. And, if they are not suppressed, and cost less, they may be worthwhile. I doubt you will see 10 years, but if they can get five years it may be enough.It still looks like a reasonable EV (100 mile range) will need a $20k battery pack. A plug-in hybrid with a 40 mile range may only need $8k, but will need an ICE. Either way if Honda brings its Insight to market in April for under $20k, it will be hard to beat. The Chevy Volt is talking about $35k!