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effyochickenJan 30, 2011
Nearly 90% of Americans are religious, and 55% of the country would vote against a candidate purely for being an atheist. This doesn't bode very well for the future of that whole separation of church and state thingy.
davidtcJan 30, 2011
They should make it so church and state are actually separate. If you are religious, you can't be in government.
:)
norman619Jan 30, 2011
Last I checked the government doesn't support any particular religion.
djkwokJan 30, 2011
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xwBqGpQ1RDU
suzillaJan 30, 2011
No? Your local churches / synagogues / mosques, etc, enjoy the same benefits of police and fire protection as you do, yet they pay NO taxes to support those services. Government, by virtue of giving them those services for free does, in fact, support them. That makes all taxpayers financial supporters of religious organizations, whether we want to be or not. (Odd that you never hear about this from the tea party crowd and their ilk, who complain loudly about having to pay for someone else's health care costs (i.e. making insurance mandatory for everyone.)
rhawk187Jan 30, 2011
Like he said, "any particular religion" you yourself said, churches/synagogues/mosques are getting the same treatment. Looks like there isn't a religious bias, and therefore congress has passed now law supporting the establishment of religion or prohibiting the free exercise thereof.
h4cklerJan 31, 2011
Atheists might have a differing opinion.
suzillaJan 31, 2011
Your interpretation of the 1st amendment is ... amusing, but wrong, as well as off-point. The bias is toward supporting religions institutions, versus not supporting them. I do not wish to support them, and yet part of the money I pay fo run the government goes to provide services for all of them. My money therefore goes to support religions, my atheism notwithstanding.
viralinJan 31, 2011
@suzilla - well said.
rhawk187Jan 31, 2011
There are a few Supreme Court justices that would disagree. As long as it isn't discriminating, it isn't establishing a state religion, and it's okay. You can disagree with them all you want, but they are the ones that get to make the decision.
As far as your taxes not paying for things you don't want them too, well that's a much larger issue.
pinkfish411Jan 30, 2011
Yeah, except that would completely miss the whole point of the First Amendment.
lju1492Jan 31, 2011
Or, my preference, if you don't believe in God, you can't be in government.
hiropendragonJan 30, 2011
Please cite source for your claims? Also, define "religious" - that's pretty ambiguous.
Thanks!
effyochickenFeb 2, 2011
A simple Google search for "percent of religious Americans" and "how many would vote against atheists," as well as a Google search for the term "religious" to view it's definition must clearly have been too confusing, my apologies.
http://religions.pewforum.org/reports
http://atheism.about.com/od/atheistbigotryprejudice/a/AtheistSurveys.htm
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/religious
You're welcome! ^_^
hiropendragonFeb 2, 2011
Okay, I've done as you said, since you've chosen to be snarky instead of answering my question: The top Google results yielded no answer to the question. Results found:
"percent of religious Americans" top results:
1: 83% identified with one religious sects (not religious, mind you - not everyone who identifies with a sect believes they are religious)
2: 87% identified with a denomination (again, same as 1)
3: "71 percent of American adults say they are more likely to develop their own set of religious beliefs than to accept a defined set of teachings from a particular church"
4: Said nothing about the question.
5: Same as 4.
6: "(17 percent) say that they have "no religion,""
7: "(55%) report that they are religious and spiritual" (that page had 85% identifying with a religion, reinforcing the idea that just identifying with a religion does not mean one is religious)
8: "(48 percent) of religious Americans “seldom” or “never” read about their own religion"
9: didn't answer the question but noted 28% of people think the Bible was "invented by man".
10: Was about Prop 8.
So, what did I find? None of the stats supported a 90% claim, and they had contradictory ideas about who identified. No result bothered to take the time to actually DEFINE what religious was.
Of your links, the first two said nothing about what "religious" was. The last defines it as:
"relating to or manifesting faithful devotion to an acknowledged ultimate reality or deity"
So. How many Americans are "faithfully devoted", do you think? 90%? I seriously doubt this. But that phrase is still not specific? By what measure do we say someone is faithful and devoted? Attending a house of worship on a weekly basis? Do they need to actively follow the teachings of the religion? Follow the teachings exactly?
You see, this is my point. I seriously doubt "answering yes on a poll" makes someone eligible for eternal bliss, or whatever afterlife someone may believe in. Now we can talk about people's voting habits, but simply claiming "90% of people are religious" is a thoroughly empty and baseless claim.Comment is buried, click here to see the rest.
effyochickenFeb 2, 2011
And I could say that 95% of people who claim to be religious are actually horrible, horrible people who do not follow anything at all about their religion because they aren't hardcore believers, therefore they all go to hell. The WORST people I've ever met, and continue to meet on a daily basis are all "religious."
See what I did there? I took a stat and just twisted it around using my opinion of a definition in order to feel like I actually made a true and valid point. STFU with the nit-picking already. I said nothing at all about being FAITHFULLY devoted, just that they were religious to some degree, IE believing in some form of deity, afterlife, spirituality, etc.
You have completely and utterly missed the entire point of what I was trying to say. Would it make you feel any better if I had said "86% of Americans" instead?
hiropendragonFeb 2, 2011
So "This doesn't bode very well for the future of that whole separation of church and state thingy." isn't an opinion?
I doubt that people who aren't "faithfully devoted" are the ones going to be going after tearing down separation of church and state. That was my point. And so thus, it very much matters what one means by "religious".
But moreover - I asked a simple question, to cite your claims. How is that hostile? How did that deserve your snarkiness back at me? If we can't challenge each other in open discussion - WHICH IS PRECISELY THE POINT OF COMMENTS IN SOCIAL MEDIA - then what good does it do throwing our beliefs and opinions at each other? I may have completely and utterly missed the entire point of what you were trying to say, but you ought to have said so in a direct and non-hostile way, rather than implying I'm so stupid that I can't do a Google search. :(
effyochickenFeb 2, 2011
While I will admit that it was "snarky" of me to say that, I was originally making a very, very general statement, and I kept it that way on purpose. I don't like using statistics for the very reason you're pointing out, it's too easy to misconstrue and change their meaning. If I had written a 2 or 3 paragraph message carefully explaining my viewpoints in regards to some articles I had read, I can see the need for references.
But I was not. Which is why your post irked me a bit and prompted the typical "Google it" reply. I'll take this as a learning experience though and do better next time.
hiropendragonFeb 3, 2011
No sweat. Appreciate you replying!
atomheartmotherFeb 2, 2011
"So. How many Americans are "faithfully devoted",..."
Who cares? The poster said nothing about how many happened to be truly devout or practicing. Red herring much?
"I seriously doubt "answering yes on a poll" makes someone eligible for eternal bliss..."
Again, that wasn't being discussed. You've apparently got a bad habit of not being ab to to coherently stick to what's being discussed.
Looks to me like you can't dispute the fact that the overwhelming majority of Americans are at least somewhat religious and that they don't like atheists. Doesn't sit well with you? Too f**king bad...that's reality. Deal.
hiropendragonFeb 2, 2011
"Who cares [about what % is faithful]?"
Fair enough question. I think it *is* being discussed because of this logic:
The original poster made an implication that there are a high enough % of "religious" Americans as to threaten the future of the separation of church and state. While he didn't explicitly mention how many are faithful of the overall who claim to me, I think that's absolutely pertinent to discussing his original claim.
In fact, I believe it's you who have gone off-topic, because I was specifically talking about the separation of church and state claim. I agree totally with you that most Americans are "at least somewhat religious" and I also agree that a lot of them don't like atheists. But those weren't relevant, in my opinion, to the point I was making. But you wouldn't know that because you *assumed* I was making some other argument, and preferred hostility over simply challenging what I'm saying and allowing me a chance to respond.
Closed AccountJan 30, 2011
If we follow the constitution we will not have a problem. However, If we keep appointing conservative activist judges to the supreme court, both local and nationally, we will have big problems!
davidnivenJan 31, 2011
Yeah, like America would be better served by liberal activists masquerading as judges and using the Constitution as a list of recommendations.
dauntless1Jan 31, 2011
Name the liberal president that said "the constitution is just a piece of paper."
davidnivenJan 31, 2011
Bush. Clinton and Obama were simply never quoted but feel the same way.
effyochickenFeb 2, 2011
Which is why you had to use your imagination in order to make that conclusion.
MarkofFaithJan 30, 2011
In the US it's separation of church and state, not separation of God and state. America is "One nation, under God".
In the UK we have an Established religion, the Church of England. The governor of the C of E is the same as our Head of State.Comment is buried, click here to see the rest.
grinningcatJan 30, 2011
The phrase "under God" was added to the Pledge of Allegiance only in 1954 during the McCarthy era, when many "good God-fearing" Americans wanted to highlight their differences from the horrible scary godless Commies.
Read more at http://www.religioustolerance.org/nat_pled.htm
davidnivenFeb 1, 2011
Or simply wanted to defend America against the secular liberals invading politics at that time.
hiropendragonFeb 2, 2011
I have news for you, secular liberals invading politics is how America broke away from the British crown. ;)
atomheartmotherFeb 2, 2011
The classical liberalism of the founders, who subscribed to a philosophy of individual liberties and distrust of centralized power, bears very, very little resemblance to what's termed liberalism today.
hiropendragonFeb 2, 2011
@atom - that's a fine debate question, though the point I was making was more that the Founding Fathers were radical liberal secularists for their time.
atomheartmotherFeb 2, 2011
And that's a fair point.
ngc4414Apr 29, 2011
This account has been closed by the user
mcnapeJan 30, 2011
Unless your church has a core belief in the separation of church and state - like mine does.
I personally am deeply religious but think that there are far more important qualities to look for in a politician. They make laws for everybody, not just me.
mattbdJan 31, 2011
Here in the UK I'd say being openly and actively religious would probably count against a politician. Tony Blair largely kept his Catholic beliefs to himself. In my experience most people here don't really care what someone believes as long as they don't try and shove it down our throats.
However, I guess we're in a different position to the US, Perhaps being openly Catholic or Protestant could have harmed a politician's ability to deal with the various factions in Northern Ireland.
murxJan 30, 2011
Coincidentally the gene for stupidity is the same allele as the gene for religiosity....
norman619Jan 30, 2011
And the gene for arrogance seems to be switched on in you.
norman619Jan 30, 2011
Forgot to add:
I'd love for you to look ingot he beliefs of the people who invented all the things that have made modern civilization possible. I'd be willing to bet you'd learn MOST of them were religious people. Even the scientific method was a gift to us from monks. If find your assertion the being religious makes you stupid to be a demonstration of your own stupidity.Comment is buried, click here to see the rest.
murxJan 30, 2011
You see, those religious people that didn't feel 'yeah, gods will, everything fine' is enough of an explanation - those that didn't feel that just being religious is enough in this world - they invented all those new things and thoughts.
And besides all that needs to be said about god was already said 2330 years in the past by Epicurus:
“Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?”
breadfredJan 30, 2011
I'm gonna steal that. Thanks.
kalvinbJan 30, 2011
That line of questioning falls apart as soon as you ask the question "why doesn't God stop me from doing evil?" Would you like God to make you his puppet? And if you enjoy having your own personal sins and do not want God to stop you from doing them, then why should he stop other people from doing what they enjoy even if it is evil?
St. Augustine famously said "Give me chastity and continence, but not yet."
The unasked question is "If He is able and willing what would the consequence be?"
But Epicurus isn't wise enough apparently to answer that one because he conveniently failed to even ask it.
That is the running plot line of all Genie stories: the unintended consequences of your own foolish desires.
By God's grace was Epicurus not turned into a wooden doll for asking such stupid questions.Comment is buried, click here to see the rest.
woollymittensJan 30, 2011
Wut?
murxJan 30, 2011
You're wrong in your reasoning - why would god then create beings taking pleasure in 'evil' things in the first place?
Hell, we can already create 'virtual' worlds in which only some actions are possible - the 'good' actions, no cheating allowed or even possible - but god couldn't?
And this so called free will is no safe argument either - if god created life in a way that it never desired 'evil' it wouldn't even know about it, its free will in no way lessened.
Do you know a place named Lohbruegge? No? Is your free will harmed in any way because you didn't know that you could travel there? No.
Same would be true if you didn't know about 'evil'.
Also - all monotheistic religions have a lunatic as a god - at least if you read what they allegedly did in their colorful (mostly blood-colored) history - who fit very well the epitome of evil - who resemble more the image of their 'archenemy' then even a mere human 'saint'.
kalvinbJan 30, 2011
"why would god then create beings taking pleasure in 'evil' things in the first place?"
He didn't.
Next.
breadfredJan 31, 2011
How do you explain evil then? kalvinb?
karmashockJan 30, 2011
There is no religious gene. The notion that such a thing exists is just bigotry from effete twits that like to pretend that their atheism is due to genetic superiority and only someone with funky genes could possibly hold different views. Never mind that their parents or grand parents were just as religious. They'd have to believe that suddenly they all spontaneously lost the religious gene all in the same region for no apparent biological reason.
It's idiotic. I'd say people making the claim are suffering from genetic gullibility or perhaps the bigotry gene... but that would be falling into the same trap. I really doubt there's a gene that codes for that sort of thing. Oh, you can be stupid or perhaps lacking in curiosity.
But if there is any gene at work here, then it's more likely a peer pressure or "group think" gene. Some people have a pathological need to fit in and will conform their thinking to their perceived peers.
Why do people tend to agree in various geographical regions? No one likes to be the odd man out. So everyone agrees. This cuts both ways. Most of what drives religions, ideologies, political factions, and fashion fads is a simple mindless need to fit in. Some people in each zone are thinking and trend setting, but most are just aping their peers.
So by all means, feel smug... just like the guy next to you that feels smug because he sees you feel smug... and so on.
Monkeys.
rudegarJan 30, 2011
http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn7147-genes-contribute-to-religious-inclination.html
karmashockJan 30, 2011
That study is hardly conclusive of anything. The same size is far too small to mean anything.
It's like trying to plot a graph with ONE point. Even two isn't enough... you need hundreds to start to see a pattern.
Anyway, the whole thing is predicated on the suggestion that the reason certain regions are religious and certain regions are not... is due somehow to genetic differences in the various populations. That is a very difficult position to take considering that just about 100 percent of the population of the world was VERY religious until rather recently. Genetically nothing has changed. What has changed is entirely cultural and not biological.
Thus looking for a biological trigger or contributing element doesn't actually make any sense at all.
But by all means, quote studies that are about as credible as the most recent weight loss study.
Did you hear the one that said that wine consumption was linked to better health? It's a good one. Most people don't know the difference between correlation and causation so they can't understand it properly. But in a nut shell the study says that people that drink wine also eat better foods, exercise more, and have more money. That is, the wine is a correlative symptom of affluence. The causal factor that provides for better health is not the wine but the affluence of which the wine is a symptom. Wine does not make people healthier but wealthier people tend to drink wine and wealthier people tend to be healthier.
Causation and correlation. Simple once you get it.
Religiousity is a complex cultural affectation that if linked to biology would be linked to roughly every human on earth. It predates the written word and perhaps speech. We have evidence of neanderthals ritualistically burying their dead. That makes the trait, if biological, a trait shared by multiple lines of advanced hominids.
These studies seem to be what grad students write up when they need a term paper. They're largely bulls**t students make up so they can finally get the hell out of school and get a real job hopefully doing real science.
The tragedy is that the media apparently likes to print the papers.
If this isn't a term paper gone amok then someone should be ashamed of themselves.
rudegarJan 30, 2011
I never claimed this study was proof just that it's not always a matter of bigots claiming this
karmashockJan 30, 2011
Perhaps not in it's inception but when interpreted through most media outlets it develops a certain character and taste.
Ultimately, it's a study about nothing that like a Rorschach blot holds a mirror up to the souls of those that interpret them... allowing one and all to judge themselves.
Show me your fears, your hopes, your dreams... It's just a couple random ink blots on a page. But allow the mind to wander and it will see what it wants to see.
rudegarJan 30, 2011
I never claimed this study was proof just that it's not always a matter of bigots claiming this
aokitsuneJan 31, 2011
I'd like to point out that near universal religious belief in the past doesn't necessarily mean that everyone is predisposed to believe in something; cultural influences can make people appear religious when they are not.
I was raised Catholic, but looking back don't think I would describe myself as ever having been pious. But if I were expected to be devout by society under penalty of ostracism or worse, you better believe I'd fake it if I had to.
karmashockJan 31, 2011
Ok, but how do you separate on a biological and neurological level the distinction between any strongly held indoctrinated belief and a religious belief?
Can you claim that ANYONE is not indoctrinated?
See... people are religious mostly because their parents are religious. There isn't a religion gene. There might be an indoctrination or peer pressure gene but nothing so specific as a religion gene.
Give me a small child and I can raise them to believe the moon is made out of sapient cheese and the magic c**kroaches watch us at all times judging our goodness.
Any child. That's indoctrination.
Likewise, most people when put in an environment where their peers believe one thing or another will adjust their views to conform. Today, atheism is fashionable and thus peer pressure makes people want to be atheists while indoctrination often makes people want to be religious.
So the religion gene more likely breaks down to whether someone is more genetically predisposed to change their views because of peer pressure or more likely to hold to their indoctrinated views from their family.
Neither option is very flattering. Trust me... trying to turn your nose up at religious people through some kind of sideways genetic filtering is going to backfire.
I can say this because it already has backfired many times every time this "religion gene" idea is floated. It's an ignorant hypothesis.
It demonstrates a lack of understanding in anthropology and neurology.
inajeepJan 31, 2011
I agree with %80 of your postings here. Indoctrination is a key aspect to perpetuate religion . The 'gene' aspect is stupid but your impressions of atheists and their 'smugness' puts me off a bit.
karmashockFeb 1, 2011
I don't know what to tell you. Atheism is fine but they are smug while also frequently being crude.
Any ideology that can be mastered by a 15 year old probably could use some growing up.
rsmongeJan 30, 2011
The article doesn't even say there *is* a "religious" gene. The article talks about predictions of what would happen *if* such a gene exists. But yes, there have been other studies claiming to have found evidence of this gene.
"There is no religious gene."
This comment is incredibly ignorant. I suppose you are an evolutionary biologist. To make the claim that there *is no religious gene* as a statement of fact requires an absurd level of arrogance which no rational person would pretend to have.
I agree that these studies are questionable, though they *are* interesting. To make the conclusion that a religious gene exists is clearly premature, but your claim to know something that you *couldn't possibly know* and then to call others "smug" is painfully hypocritical, and calls into question your very ability to process reality.
Yes, all scientists make wild speculations and then try to look to see if their ideas could be true. If they find evidence (whether or not they have done their experiments correctly) they will publish in the hopes of getting famous. That doesn't mean that their hypothesis is necessarily true. Yet these particular studies are quite interesting, and that's whey they are getting attention.
For you to rail against their findings, and claim that you *know* what the truth is. That's idiotic. They may be right, and they very well could be wrong. But you sure as hell wouldn't know.
karmashockJan 30, 2011
As to being ignorant for suggesting that there is no religious gene, not really. You don't need to be an evolutionary biologist to grasp that the complexity of the concept of belief is unlikely to be genetic. It's a concept. Anyone with even a rudementry grasp of neurology as it relates to human conceptual brain function would understand that the notion of having a gene that codes for religion is foolish.
There being a gene for it would be like having a gene for understanding that a square has four sides.
As to the studies being interesting... they're playing statistical games by finding correlative links. Such links are by their nature not causal and more importantly are almost always coincidental.
So AMAZING... you had fun with Excel... what an amazing scientist. /s
You can find correlative links to prove anything. I bet there are statistical links between a certain type of toothpaste and serial killers. OH MY GOD!!! Brand X toothpaste turns people into serial killers!
Class action lawsuit!!!!
Just ignorant.
All of that said... there might be genes that code for conformity to group/tribe/club/faction. If you wanted to find a religion gene, I'd suggest you look more in the direction of base animal behavior which is a more primal attribute and thus VASTLY more likely to be specifically coded.
Think of what an animal might be coded for on a behavioral instinctual level. Those are the sorts of things you're find linked to genes.
How do I know? I'm an educated man in the year 2011... I know all sorts of amazing things.
rsmongeJan 30, 2011
Yes, this is the way an intelligent, thoughtful person responds to claims.
"You don't need to be an evolutionary biologist to grasp that the complexity of the concept of belief is unlikely to be genetic."
I agree in general. However, I believe evolutionary biologists do claim to have found such things. Nevertheless, as you yourself have stated, it could be a gene which makes you more likely to believe what your parents tell you. Or a gene which makes you more likely to believe people who tell you things earnestly. Hard to say. Clearly more research is needed before any solid conclusions can be made.
I mean, if all you are arguing is that a "religious gene" doesn't exist, well, nobody said that it did. A reasonable person should recognize that the term "religious gene" is being used in place of whatever gene may be causing more religious behavior, which could very well be for something else entirely, but which happens to also cause people to be more religious.
You certainly shouldn't assume that geneticists are as stupid as you seem to think.
Congratulations on your education. But statements like this don't seem to back your claim of intelligence.
"It's idiotic. I'd say people making the claim are suffering from genetic gullibility or perhaps the bigotry gene"
You yourself just posted about ways in which genes could affect religiosity, so why are you insulting scientists for a holding a belief which they don't actually hold, about a phenomenon that you yourself have just given explanations for.
karmashockJan 30, 2011
You're missing the point. Whatever it is that makes people religious is also active in people that aren't religious.
You need to broaden your concept of what you think of as "religious behavior"... that is to say theism is biologically arbitrary. A more likely system would be indoctrination, conformity, etc.
The point being that people that you don't think of as being religious could in fact be EXTREMELY indoctrinated and EXTREMELY conformist. You have to expand the notion to philosophical, political, and social indoctrination.
For example, lets say your parents were vegetarians because "meat is murder" or something. Well... you believe that now because you've got the indoctrination and conformity genes. You believe that meat is murder to the ends of your soul. And it's something you might just kill for...
Look at all the non-theistic radical groups and see them in the context of cults. See the religion without god. See the bonds of ritual, prayer, and sacrifice.
The chanting.
The communal gathering.
The recitation, memorization, and proselytization of group ideology.
See my point is that if you want to make a biological argument, you have to first understand that the concept of religion from a biological perspective is a MUCH broader concept. It all falls generally under the heading of "group behavior and group identity"
Anyone that is patriotic, believes in ideological values, sees themselves as part of something larger, etc is likely using the exact same facilities as someone that is deeply religious.
In fact, one of the great things historically about religion... is that it brought people together. That might sound weird but you have to understand that historically most people didn't feel close to anyone that didn't know or come into contact with on a regular basis. So a stranger was by his very nature an alien. Not to be trusted. Enemy.
However, if distant people's are of the same religion often they get along much better. You can sow large empires together with belief.
You can do the same thing with patriotism or philosophy or ideology. Religions are just easier to maintain and can be super national unlike patriotism.
One of the things I find very irritating about atheists for example is that their group behavior and doctrine is effectively religious in nature. Even if they don't believe in a god they have a group ideology that his held to with the conviction of belief. And it's the same part of their brain lighting up as the most devout religious person.
rsmongeJan 30, 2011
Funny, but I find this post to be a complete refutation of what your original post was.
In which you called the scientists bigots, gullible, smug, and called their work bulls**t. Only now, you've gone off explaining how genetic factors favoring religious thinking actually could lead to more stable societies, which could then lead to selection not only for those types of genes, but those societies. Make up your mind.
I think what's happening here is that you have some latent anger and/or fear of atheists, and when you read the article you immediately thought that they were going to use this information to malign religious people, even though there was no such statement in the article. If you know anything about evolution, you'll know that most biologists are very careful not to imply that one allele is better than another or even that one is faulty, and especially not "funky".
It's true that even the concept of a 'religious gene' is problematic, because it's true that most if not all religious behaviors could manifest in non-religious ways. Personally, I think of religion as an egocentric propensity to believe in bulls**t, but hey I'm one of those weird rational people. Also known as atheists.
While its true that some rationalists (I mean people who believe that the strength of a conclusion depends on evidence for that conclusion) are a bit zealous in that belief. But to their credit, their system is one that works towards making better conclusions. Meanwhile, a faith-based belief system is inherently doomed to catastrophic errors.
"One of the things I find very irritating about atheists for example is that their group behavior and doctrine is effectively religious in nature."
If only I could list all the irritating things about religion.
Wait, we have "chanting", "communal gatherings", and "recitation"? You'll have to tell me where I can see this because I haven't heard of it. This is just an old trick, trying to conflate absolute faith in fairytales to an absolute "faith" in logic. It soothes the religious mind, but won't satisfy a mechanic. Try telling someone about faith when their car breaks down.
karmashockJan 30, 2011
Not really, my position was just more complex and studied then you seem to grasp. No offense intended. I've given this a lot of thought long before this discussion.
I have not contradicted myself. To the contrary I have explained and defined why the article/study is horses**t and then gone on to explain what might actually be going on in more accurate terms.
rsmongeJan 31, 2011
More complex and studied? Is that what you call insulting people who in the end you basically agree with, by calling them bigots, effete twits, and so on because you dislike the term "religious gene"?
I can see now that you have put some thought into this and you know a reasonable amount on the subject, but your basic grasp of how science functions I'd say is pretty mediocre, at least in what you've shown up to this point.
The article is not horses**t. You just backed up its basic merit after insulting the people it is about. You're having a panic attack about a 4 paragraph blurb that can barely get into the subject and claiming that somehow you just *know* what the truth is and that these people are incredibly foolish and insane because ... well, because they're using a term that you don't like. That's just weird.
aokitsuneJan 31, 2011
@karmashock
I think it's the other way around; the factors that make everyone want to organize into groups are active in the religiously inclined as well. The criteria for membership in a social group can be completely arbitrary and do the same thing evolutionarily.
But those who are also predisposed to believe in a religion or deity add that as another criteria when forming their social groups for who's in and who's out.
If these beliefs weren't genuine, there would be no reason to use them as a dividing line as opposed to everyone having a taste for funny hats or liking red as a color. The beliefs themselves are important enough that they persist, even without being strictly necessary to form group identities.
Needing to be part of a social group and believing there's an invisible man in the sky isn't the same thing, but they're not exclusive of each other either.
karmashockJan 31, 2011
Of course it's active in religiously inclined as well. The point is that the trait doesn't stop and start at what we call religion but rather would have to extend entirely into the full realm of belief. That includes ideology, patriotism, morality, ethics, manners, philosophy, etc.
It's a messier affair if you look at it from a biological stand point then what the various cultural bigots would like to think.
People forget that we're animals first and conceptual beings of culture second. What we call human is an idea carved out of hominid flesh. The people that made this study as well as many people that posted in this thread didn't keep that in mind.
Anyone that fails to grasp this point will be wrong. It doesn't take much calculation to figure that much out.
inajeepJan 31, 2011
Religious behavior is society behavior. The belief in supernatural invisible deity in the sky, ground or air that created everything is what I do not believe. Organized religion therefore is manifestation of society's innate natures, both good and bad. Some say that taken as a whole religion makes things worse by enforcing artificial groups and boundaries and incites violence. That is what irritates an atheist or agnostic mostly. However, those who take a step farther away from the picture and superficially claim both are bad or the same just really should stay out of the whole discussion. You have spent a good deal of time looking into it obviously and may have some incredibly passionate points.
Your line of thinking is not truthful towards equating atheism as a religion which I believe you have done a few times in this thread.
As an example: Believing in Scientologist's Xenu is not the same as disbelieving it.
I believe you are too far from the subject to see both sides clearly or at least the way you are coming across.
pinkythewinkyJan 31, 2011
"Even if they don't believe in a god they have a group ideology that his held to with the conviction of belief. And it's the same part of their brain lighting up as the most devout religious person."
You just brilliantly stated something that has been on my mind for quite some time. Atheism seems to be growing into a strange religion itself.
karmashockJan 31, 2011
Atheism is less a religion then an ideology but the point I am making is that that is a philosophical distinction that has no neurological or biological distinction.
When we talk about DNA we're talking about biology and thus we have to ask whether distinctions we make between various ideologies have any relevance to the biology which seems not care since it stores, retrieves, and acts on the information the same either way.
pinkfish411Jan 30, 2011
Quite simply, the matter is this: you can't talk meaningfully about a "religious" gene until you find some sort of essential "core" of what "religion" is. The fact of matter, however, as scholars of religion have quite decisively shown, is that there simply is no such core. People are "religious" (a vague term in itself) for numerous reasons and in numerous ways. People of radically different dispositions can both believe the same religious doctrines as propositionally true; people of very similar dispositions may disagree radically over questions of religious truth.
To suggest that you can reduce it all to the presence or absence of certain genes is to sweep away all the multitude of complex reasons people accept religion doctrines and the ways they relate to them. It's not that certain genes might not lead certain people in certain circumstances to be more receptive to a religious teaching, it's that the lack of a common core of religious experience shows quite decisively that we have no reason to even suspect that their might be some set of special genes that's common to all religious believers.
This is a prime example of a case where scientists need to take leads from social scientists, whose study of the diversity of religious phenomena make "religious gene" research seem naive and wholly misguided.
karmashockJan 31, 2011
It's easier to disprove the idea of a religious gene then that. You don't need to get philosophical about it. Rather, get anthropological and neurological.
Much much easier to disprove.
rsmongeJan 31, 2011
Quite simply, you've missed the point. Yes, there is complexity. Yes, the concept of a religious gene is difficult to define and is probably even more difficult to pin down. That's. what. science. is. for.
If they can find simple genetic factors that lead to more "religious" behaviors, then that would be interesting indeed.
I don't see how social 'scientists' are going to discover why religion manifests itself in humans.
pinkfish411Jan 31, 2011
Quite simply, it appears you didn't understand a word I wrote. Please tell me: what is a "religious" behavior? And please tell me, what tools do the natural sciences have to determine what kinds of behaviors are "religious" and what ones aren't?
My point is that science can't find a "religion gene" because, according to the social sciences, there's no such thing as "religion." "Religion" is a set of "family resemblances" (to use Wittgenstein's term), a family tree of different attitudes, beliefs, feelings, actions, and so forth; there's no religious "core" that is a part of all religiosity. If there's no religious core, then the concept of a religion gene is a meaningless one.
Saying that we can find genetic factors that contribute to certain "religious" behaviors would be interesting but not altogether meaningful. These genetic factors would be found in some religious people, but not all (since not all are religious in the same way), and they would be found not only among the religious but also among the non-religious (since someways of being religious are closer to some ways of being non-religious than they are to other ways of being religious, and vice versa). I see no sense in talking about "religious genes" (even in the plural) since, based on all the evidence we have from psychology and sociology and anthropology and other human sciences, we have no reason whatsoever to think that there would be any special correlation between certain genetic factors and the idea of "religion" in general.
And yes, social scientists, philosophers, even theologians have just as much, if not more, claim to deal with the question of religion than natural scientists do. Unless you want to reduce all thought, all reasoning, to genetics (which you can't actually do on a purely scientific basis--you need philosophy to make that kind of self-undermining argument), then we look for the roots of religion in those numerous dimensions of human life that are irreducible to a pure genetic substrate. Not that the substrate doesn't exist, and not that we don't need a certain genetic makeup to have rational thoughts, to have feelings, to have existential longings and conundrums, to have philosophical questions, to have a sense of belonging to a community, and so on, but the attempt to reduce all the products of these human experiences to genetics is imperialistic arrogance. It's natural science reaching beyond its proper bounds and actual competencies.
karmashockJan 31, 2011
precisely... from a biological stand point the difference between a religious belief and any other conviction is entirely arbitrary.
rsmongeJan 31, 2011
You completely miss the point of science. Science is predisposed to find exactly these types of connections that would ordinarily be missed. Finding a gene that has a strong correlation to strongly religious people would be extraordinarily interesting *no matter what objections there are to the term "religious gene"*. And that's what these scientists are on the trail of. Will they find it? I don't know. They are making claims that seem to support it. You can't just discount what they have found simply because you have some deep moral repulsion to having religion defined in a simple way. That's not rational. The evidence says what it says no matter how much angst it causes you. It's up to later scientists to interpret what it means and figure out what exact adaptive value it has.
I have stated before that the term is problematic, but that's what sells records man. The term is not necessary to the science they are conducting.
Personally, I think that the philosophers know next to nothing about humanity, or I should say about as much as anybody else. But what they do know is about logic and epistemology. Enough to know that the scientists and engineers are the ones who figure things out. Claiming that humans are some poetic bag of thoughts and feelings just isn't very useful.
Scientists, for example, have powerful explanations for the invention and contagiousness of religion in society. We have clear modern examples such as the cargo cults. I mean, you could give lots of credit for these explanations to social scientists and historians, but without the science to back up how certain behaviors and ideas spread due to some evolutionary model, it's just somebody's opinion. Until scientists come in to back up an idea with evidence, that's all it will ever be.
As for reaching, please explain how the philosophers can help us understand human behavior more or better than an evolutionary biologist. I'm curious to hear that argument. And what is science's "proper bounds" versus those of philosophers?
pinkfish411Jan 31, 2011
Having religion defined in a simple way? You don't seem to get the basic point of what I've written, because my point is precisely that the whole quest for a "religious gene" presupposes a simplistic definition of religion that doesn't deal with the complexities and ambiguities that scholars in other fields have discovered. To pursue a "religious gene" presupposes that there's such a thing as "religion" that has some kind of common core that could even theoretically be reduced to genetics. If there's no core, then there's absolutely no reason to go pursuing a genetic basis for it in the first place. Like I said, you can pursue genetic ties to certain types of behaviors and attitudes that may sometimes be present in a religious person's religiosity (and which may also be present in a non-religious person in some non-religious way), and that's interesting, but it's a far cry from figuring out a genetic basis for religion.
Again, in case you aren't following the point: if "religion" doesn't exist, then searching for a "religion gene" is inherently misdirected. People who study religion--the beliefs, the attitudes, the actions, and so forth, of religious people--can find no "core" that unites all religions under the umbrella term "religion." (The modern use of the term "religion" comes from a time when philosophers thought they could identify conspicuously Christian-looking core in the belief systems of people around the world, but that view has long since fallen out of favor among most scholars of religion.) If there's no common experience, no common beliefs, no common attitudes, no common actions, that exist across all ways of being religious, then it makes no sense to speak of a "religion gene." All you can speak of are potentially several different genes that might manifest themselves in many different ways in many different forms of religiosity and non-religiosity.
Philosophers, social scientists, and other humanists have a role to play in the understanding of religion because religion deals with ideas, with social dynamics, with emotions, and other factors that, even while having a genetic basis, simply aren't reducible to genetics (unless, again, you want to resort to philosophy to make that self-undermining argument--self-undermining because reducing all thought to genetics would invariably undermine all confidence in the very thought processes that led to the reduction). We have no evidence to suggest that ideas spread as a matter of pure genetic determinism, that a gene determines whether or not you'll believe there is a God, whether you believe in gravity, or whether you believe that there exist minds other than your own. And if all this were purely genetic, again, it would undermine the thought processes that lead to the discovery; science itself would be undermined if it were nothing but the product of irrational genetic determinism, if scientists did nothing but manifest the content of their genes instead of actually think rationally and freely about the contents of their empirical observations.
Humanists study religion by looking at what believe, tracing histories of influence, listening to what people say and write about why they believe, and so forth. Unless you take all that as meaningless, then humanists and social scientists have a vital role to play in understanding the rise and spread of religions. Unless you think that all thought is nothing more than a fully determined manifestation of one's genetic material, then any understanding of religious belief requires studying the beliefs themselves, not just genes.
karmashockFeb 1, 2011
Again, understand that you're talking about biology here when you discuss DNA. If you want to win the discussion you need to do it on biological grounds.
Talk biology, anthropology (for behavior), and neurology... and then win.
rsmongeFeb 2, 2011
This response is to your last post.
Let me put it to you this way. While I can agree with much of what you're saying, you are *absolutely* wrong on this point.
It doesn't make a bit of difference whether there is a "core" to religion, or whether we can even postulate what a "religious gene" is. It makes not one iota of difference at all. The only thing that matters is if the scientists can identify highly religious people, and then they can identify a gene that has a significantly higher occurrence in their DNA. If you can do that, which these first studies suggest, then you have every right to claim you have found a "religious gene". Granted, you'd better be smart enough to recognize that it really isn't a "religious gene".
There are many examples where function precedes comprehension. Gravity is an obvious one. People were predicting eclipses and the paths of the planets long before they understood universal gravitation. And people were shooting each other with arrows and spears. Gravity worked, but nobody knew why. Hell, we still don't know why.
If a particular gene causes people to be more religious, then the conclusion is valid and factual, no matter how insulted you are, and no matter how puzzled you may be as to how it actually functions. Even if you are positive that it isn't possible.
pinkfish411Feb 2, 2011
What's a highly religious person? What does it mean for one person to be more religious than another?
This is the point. Until you can come up with a settled answer to those questions, it is impossible in theory to even begin looking for a correlation between religiosity and genetics. But there is no settled answer to those questions; scholars of religion have no real consensus on what exactly what it means for a person to be religious (is it holding certain types of beliefs? performing certain practices? having certain experiences? etc.?). Scholars do not even have consensus about whether a person has to self-describe as religious in order to be religious.
You don't seem to be getting the basic point: with the term itself only loosely defined, likely only held together by "family resemblances," there's no possible way that scientists could do an effective study, because in order to do the study they would have to come to a decision on what it means to be religious. But it's not within the competence of natural scientists to determine who is religious or not (and certainly not who is "more religious" than others), so attempts at finding correlations are called into question from the very beginning.
This is what I mean when I say that scientists may find correlations between genetics and certain forms of religiosity (which may also be present in those who do not self-describe as religious, of course), but not between genetics and religion itself--because religion itself is the disputed term.
It's not just that the term "religious gene" is problematic; it's that the term "religion" is also extremely problematic as well. The generic term "religion" to describe the "world religions" as all being different expressions of some basic themes is a holdover from Enlightenment philosophers' attempts to find traces of the monotheistic God at work across all times and places. In modern descriptive studies of religion, where a universal theism is not assumed, "religion" as a term is disputable, even if it still dominates popular imagination--including the imagination of scientists conducting studies about "religion."
rsmongeFeb 5, 2011
Wrong, wrong, and wrong.
"Scholars do not even have consensus about whether a person has to self-describe as religious in order to be religious"
Haha, scholars. We're talking about science here! All the scientists have to do is definite highly religious people as those who call themselves highly religious. Then find a genetic correlation. None of that other stuff means diddley. It may matter in philosophy class, or sociology, but not in science.
Or define it some other way. Define it as people who spend 10+ hours a week in church. Or spend 10+ hours in bible study a week. Whatever. It doesn't matter how you define it, once you find that correlation to a gene, you can make a preliminary conclusion...
Then of course, you have to do some *real* studies.
If you can't understand this, then you simply don't understand how science works.
If on the other hand you want to object to the idea that what they have discovered is a "religious" gene, then I am completely in agreement. But let's be clear. That is *not* what the scientists are saying. That is maybe how non-scientists are interpreting it. So, the solution is ... don't interpret it that way.
pinkfish411Feb 5, 2011
So tell me, what exactly is the point of looking for a correlation between religiosity and genetics if the scientists get to arbitrarily determine what "religiosity" means, apart from the input of, you know, people whose actual job it is to figure such things out? That makes about as much sense as scientists doing a study on baroque musicians or impressionist painters without actually looking at what the music and art worlds take those terms to mean, and inventing their own definitions instead. Really, what's the point?
There's absolutely no purpose in introducing the vague and disputed term "religion" at all. Just identify the concretely specific traits you want to study, and leave it at that.
rsmongeFeb 8, 2011
What you need to understand is that *this is exactly the point of science*. I don't know if you just don't understand how science works well enough, or if you simply refuse to believe it. Either way, your understanding is fundamentally mistaken.
You may have noticed that the people who study religion can't converge on a clear definition, and probably never will.That's *why* scientists are needed to bring some evidence to bear on the question of what is creating religious behaviors and hopefully why religion came to be or why it is so prevalent in society.
True, the scientists can't just come up with *any* definition of religion and call it sound. It clearly has to capture some aspect that people can agree on. Even if they choose frequency of church attendance as a starting point it doesn't really matter. If they can find actual correlations to that and a particular gene then they are teasing out what it means to be religious and how genes could affect that.
From there, they have every right to assert that there are "religious genes" because we know that church attendance is one important aspect of one particular type of religion.
You can complain all you want to, but scientists don't need to confer with theologians on what religion is to do studies on religion, just as they don't need to confer with Alcoholics Anonymous when looking for a gene for alcoholism. This a good analogy to consider.
Many would rage:How can there possibly be a gene for alcoholism?!? Alcoholism is a very complex behavior that can't be reduced to genes! These scientists are complete idiots!!!
And yet, genes which predispose people to addiction have been found. They are not genes for "alcoholism" per se. They are genes for "addiction" and therefore we can understand that alcoholism is an addiction. Presumably, we may find genes which predispose people to religiosity, and then finding out what those genes do specifically will lead to a better understanding of what makes people religious. We may find out that there is a gene which predisposes people to "obedience" and then we can understand better that religiosity is affected by "obedience" and by how much, looking at its prevalence.
Denying that these studies are valuable, important, or even possible is just denying reality. Will they be successful, we don't know. But denying that they could have any value at all is arrogantly ignorant. The worst kind of ignorance, in my opinion.
pinkfish411Feb 8, 2011
What, exactly, is the point of science? I thought the natural sciences were supposed to be about investigating the natural world, not making judgments about sociological, anthropological, philosophical, and theological matters.
You don't seem to grasp the very simple question I'm asking: What the f**k is a "religious behavior"? If there is no clear agreement on that among religious people themselves, or among people whose expertise is in the study of religious thought and practice, then how exactly can scientists study them? Scientists can't shed an ounce of clarity on the definition, because their job has nothing whatsoever to do with defining it. They can use the word for the purposes of their study if they want, but that isn't going to do anything to settle the debate among religious people and among religious scholars.
As I said clearly already, scientists can study certain ways of being religious, certain actions and attitudes that are often associated with people who claim to be religious, etc. But that does not in any way, shape, or form justify talking about a "religious gene." It's a gene that is associated with certain types of behavior and certain attitudes that are sometimes religious and that some religious people have.
Discovering links between certain behaviors and attitudes is fascinating and important. Using poor language to describe that work, and false giving the impression that the work is broader in scope than it actually is, is neither interesting nor important.
You show no evidence that you've come anywhere near to grasping the objection. It has nothing to do with whether or not their are connections between genes and ways of being "religious." The objection has everything to do with talking about a "religious gene" as if all the different things we in the modern West have (fairly or not) decided to call "religion" can really be expected to have a common genetic basis. Given the fact that people who study religious lifestyles empirically have founding nothing to certainly establish what demarcates "religiosity" from "non-religiosity," studies looking for the roots of "religion" (as if "religion" as such actually existed) are questionable.
In short: study specific behaviors and attitudes; don't study something as broad and ambiguous as "religion," which may or may not exist in the first place.
rsmongeFeb 9, 2011
I understand and have already commented on the problems with using the term "religious gene". I agree in principle. Nevertheless, I don't begrudge the scientists using this term because it gets people attention and gets them grant money to study this interesting and potentially important topic.
However, you're missing an even broader point. For one, the people who are studying religion can't decide on definitions of what religion is. And never will. Just as ethicists could never agree on what the origins of ethics are... until evolutionary biologists came on the scene, and explained them.
The problem, as I see it, is that those who object to the term "religious gene" came in here commenting on how the scientists are idiots and broadly proclaiming that this research is by "bigots", is "bulls**t", done by "effete twits", and "a term paper gone awry".
If you object to that one term, then object to it. Don't act as though anyone studying this subject area is a jackass for even looking into it. That only makes *you* look like a jackass, especially when you later admit that the science has value.
The reality is that I'm quite sure these scientists know that the idea of a "religious gene" is problematic. But they also know that it provokes a lot of interest, which can help them get more grant money, help make them famous, and even get them laid.
pinkfish411Feb 9, 2011
One thing I don't think you're getting: scientists aren't going to discover what "religion" is. Science is not in any way in the business of determining what such concepts mean. "Religion" as a concept is residue from a time when European Enlightenment philosophers thought they could find a universal knowledge of/orientation to the divine spread out across across all the so-called "world religions." Empirical study of the actual beliefs and practices of these "world religions" has chipped away at the notion that there is something common to them all, or that there's any clear demarcation between religiosity and non-religiosity.
Scientists simply aren't doing anything useful if they try to talk about "religion" as such and try to find a genetic basis for "it," as if there were any "it" there to have a basis. What I'm saying is that there's likely NO SUCH THING AS RELIGION, but instead a whole web of beliefs, attitudes, and practices that share "family resemblance" with each other and that are present in varying degrees and forms both within and without the so-called world religions.
And further: how does one distinguish religious devotion from philosophical wonderment? Or from political utopianism? Or even from scientific investigation? All such things, and many others, have common historical/conceptual roots, all at times share common sets of attitudes, thoughts, and practices. Is religion about looking to the mystery of being with wonder? Is it about investigation into the nature of the world? Is it about hope for a better future? Is it about blind faith in something comforting? Is it about submission to authority? Is it about iconoclastic rebellion against authority? And so on, and so on.... "Religion" can be any of those things, or multiple of them in varying ways at once...and none of those things is purely religious, of course.
So to conclude, I say again, study certain dispositions and practices from a genetic standpoint. That can be an interesting study. But don't therefore think that you've come anywhere near understanding "religion" as such. The problem is that too many people still think that there obviously is something called "religion" that we can isolate and investigate, and I'm sure many scientists are among them.
agmlauncherJan 30, 2011
A.k.a. the "I'll believe in a god there's no proof of, because i'm too intellectually lazy to call BS when I see it" gene. That gene also happens to produce and brainwash offspring at an alarming rate.
We're lucky that sheepish old Christianity is the dominant religion in the US. If it were that bat s**t insane "I'll f**king cut your head off for drawing a picture of my prophet" religion, we'd be f**ked.Comment is buried, click here to see the rest.
karmashockJan 30, 2011
If there is such a gene, you probably have it. Something to consider.
norman619Jan 30, 2011
"There is no religious gene"
Really? So please explain why humanity has ALWAYS had some sort of religion. Our psychology is dominated by our genetics. Everything you do, think, and feel are a direct result of your genetics. You think you are unique? Well if you do here's some news for you. Yeah you are unique. Just like everyone else.Comment is buried, click here to see the rest.
djkwokJan 30, 2011
Don't understand something? Easier to pass it off as magic and the gods doing than try to investigate and truly understand it. Also easier to control people when you claim there is an omnipotent entity that could change everything instantaneously
norman619Jan 30, 2011
That is human nature. the most effective leaders, both good and bad, have understood this all too well. I find it sad that people are still trying to deny who and what we are.Comment is buried, click here to see the rest.
karmashockJan 30, 2011
Why would you assume there is a gene for a complex conceptual concept that has no biological reinforcement?
If such a gene exists it works through empowering ANY kind indoctrination including whatever you happen to believe and possibly reinforcing peer pressure.
You're not thinking like a behavioral biologist. And lacking that you don't know the right questions to ask let alone the answers.Comment is buried, click here to see the rest.
rgb86Jan 31, 2011
Why would you assume that there is no biological reinforcement?
One possibility (just off the top of my head): religious beliefs reinforce a sense of community, and such communal bonding makes individuals more likely to survive. So, if you happen to be more religious, it has the side effect of making you more likely to survive.
Genes work in strange ways. Now, I'm not convinced that there is a "religious gene," but to dismiss it out of hand based on such assumptions is far worse, from a scientific standpoint. Such a thing may not be proven, but it's not outside the realm of possibility.
karmashockJan 31, 2011
because there is no way there is discrete coding for religion specifically.
rgb86Jan 31, 2011
Who said it was discrete coding for religion? It could just be a predisposition to conformity or perhaps even something else entirely that just has the *effect* of making people more religious.
The responsible gene might not even seem to have any relation to cognitive development. Like I said, genes work in strange ways, or more importantly they interact in strange ways (so it might not even be something specifically coded in one gene, but rather the outcome of the way two unrelated genes affect each other).
karmashockJan 31, 2011
Rob, that's actually what I said above. However, if the effects are broader then it isn't really a religion gene anymore. It's instead a conformity gene or an indoctrination gene.
To call it a religion gene would be to over state it's specificity.
myztryJan 31, 2011
The Australian Aboriginals were "landlocked" and unable to be influenced by doctrines. They didn't believe in any gods.
They still had their superstitions but they were based on real creatures such as snakes. Aboriginal folk lore has it that the Rainbow Serpent created features such and river and valleys.
It was just a way of explaining the unknown. Sight the path left by a snake, notice a similarity and draw a conclusion. A creation of naivety in absence of a better explanation. It served a purpose none the less.
Christianity was likely formed the same way by egotistical bastards that concluded the unknown was the work of a greater, human like being.
Sorry, but man wasn't created in God's image. God was created in man's image.
karmashockJan 31, 2011
I'm not sure what you're point is... mind summing it up in a sentence or two?
myztryJan 31, 2011
The many Gods and spirits are just creations of superstitious men to help explain what they don't understand.
This can manifest from the bogieman, to serpents, to Mother Earth, "holy" ghosts or even human like Gods.
The only thing omni-potent is man's imagination.
karmashockFeb 1, 2011
how does that relate to the topic of a religion gene?
myztryFeb 1, 2011
It relates in so far as genes are irrelevant.
You may want to involve genes much like Christians like to pretend all "gods" actually refer to their god from another perspective..
They don't. All are figments. Separate and distinct manifestations of imagination.
sdy53Jan 30, 2011
Revisit your opening declaration that "There is no religious gene". Now kindly replace the phrase religious gene with God.
What you are doing is merely asserting somethings nonexistence.
Your opinion carries no more value than the next persons.
BTW feel smug...go right ahead feel smugComment is buried, click here to see the rest.
karmashockJan 30, 2011
Your post doesn't appear to make any sense or comment cogently on anything I said.
blingalingJan 30, 2011
There is likely no religious gene per se but their very well may be a biological predisposition to be religious. (much like some people are more prone to being alcoholics but are not necessarily alcoholics their entire lives) Also studies do seem to indicate atheists are more intelligent on a group level.
That said, I'd agree some atheists smugly confuse that as somehow implying that it's also true on an individual level (which of course is the definition of bigotry) There have been countless brilliant deists through history (e.g. Newton, Plato etc..) that make the average atheist look like quite the dummy.(and I say this as an atheist)
The bottom line is everyone is an individual and should be judged on the balance of their individual merits rather just superficially on one aspect of their appearance or beliefs. Not because it is "politically incorrect" to do so but because judging an individual solely on one aspect of their many traits as a person is both morally wrong and intellectually flawed..
karmashockJan 30, 2011
Hmmm... if you mean a biological predisposition to be a zealot or a conformist tool... then I'd agree. However, it doesn't make any sense for the biology to make one specifically susceptible to theistic indoctrination. For example, this gene would probably make one just as likely to be a radical atheist, vegetarian, or <insert political faction here> as much as whatever religious radical they might also become.
Indoctrination is very powerful and I think we're all prone to it especially when we're young and impressionable. Most ideologies take advantage of ways to indoctrinate children be they religions, political factions, cultures, etc. Everyone gets their fundamental values when they're very young.
Morality and ethics are not hard wired into people. They are manually programmed into children. Along with that we tend to program elements of our personal culture which tends to include a religion and/or ideology as well as some kind of wider factional alliance which might include a clan, bloodline, or tribe.
This is where religions live... same place all beliefs are born. It's important to see them in the more generalized concept that nature is going to accept and reinforce.
immunofortJan 30, 2011
Are you a Geneticist?
karmashockJan 30, 2011
I'm a modern Renaissance man... I know a lot about a lot of things. I am curious. I think about lots of things for my own pleasure and personal growth. So while I am not a specialist in the field of genetics. I do understand something of animal behavior, neurology, genetics, evolution, adaptation, and the various environmental pressures that distort these qualities through the generations.
zephyrprimeJan 30, 2011
There are probably religious genes. There are genes for just about everything. People are kidding themselves about self determination.
karmashockJan 31, 2011
If there are then nearly everyone has the gene which raises some difficult questions.
Closed AccountJan 31, 2011
I just determined I would bury your comment.
murxJan 30, 2011
The science about religious brains/genes etc is faulty.
It always searches for something while at the same time it would be much easier to look for something missing!
What do you need to be a believer and follower of a religion?
An aptitude for obedience and less critical thinking (to not see the logical fallacies of religion).
It would be more likely to find a gene that is defect and results in a less active and thus religious brain...Comment is buried, click here to see the rest.
rgb86Jan 31, 2011
The problem with that is that "faulty" is a relative statement. Who is to say one form is right, but another is a defect? They both simply *are*. What you might consider a defect in one aspect just as easily might confer benefits in another.
So, one form of a gene might make people more conformist, follow the herd mentality, which you could see as a negative, but then again, individuals within a tight community are more likely to thrive than loners.
Just something to think about.
bvdthieveryJan 30, 2011
whaaaaaaaaa? idiocracy
revsharptonJan 30, 2011
Religiosity is a less-important factor in societal domination than immigration. Try comparing 126K new Amish vs. 20 million new Hispanics in the same time frame. The invaders could be religious or not, but their cultures are vastly different than ours and they have shown little interest in becoming Americans in the last 150 years.
Likewise, a relatively small group of Jewish immigrants from Russia in the early 20th century have established a dominant position within the media and have worked ceaselessly to glamorize and popularize behaviors (drug abuse, casual sex, infidelity, leukophobia) antithetical to the European-American Christian cultural values that made this country great as well as traditional Judaic values. The media elite may be religious or not, but their deleterious effect on American culture cannot be disputed.Comment is buried, click here to see the rest.
norman619Jan 30, 2011
"In a new study, Robert Rowthorn, emeritus professor of economics at Cambridge University, has looked at the broader picture underlying this particular example: how will the high fertility rates of religious people throughout the world affect the future of human genetic evolution, and therefore the biological makeup of society?"
OK this is stupid. Religion has ALWAYS dominated society. Most of the damn world hods some sort of religious belief. Those who claim they don't are lying to themselves. It is part of human nature. Thousands of years of recorded human history should tell any thinking person this.Comment is buried, click here to see the rest.
renorocJan 30, 2011
Religion is responsible for most of the great works of Art compared to atheism. I can't see an atheistic society creating a Great Pyramid, Ankgor Wat, or the Sistine Chapel. Although there have been atrocities made in the name of religion, I have no doubt that most religious people are Good and that two decent people of differing religions will be able to get along quite civilly.Comment is buried, click here to see the rest.
rgb86Jan 31, 2011
And I can't see religion creating antibiotics, integrated circuits, space shuttles, etc.
I have no doubt that most religious people have good intentions--or at least their opinion of what is good--but please don't act like they alone are responsible for the wonders of the world.
ngc4414Apr 29, 2011
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rgb86Apr 29, 2011
He may have been Catholic, but Catholicism had nothing to do with it's discovery. That would be like attributing the discovery to the fact that he had white skin--i.e. absolute bulls**t.
Not to mention the fact that the discovery was completely accidental, and it was Florey & Chain who actually put it to medicinal use. The only notable piece of religious information for either of them is that Chain was Jewish and fled Germany. The only role religion played is in persecution and driving the man out of his country. But who knows, if you're religious and don't care for logic, you could use that as an excuse for saying God lead him to England to meet Florey and pursue this work. That's completely unsupported BS, but such things don't matter to those who are dead-set on believing at all costs.
And no, Atheists do not portray all non-Atheists as savages. However, your vast generalizations about all Athesis prove you to be every bit as bad as the lies you are making up in the aspersions you cast.
ngc4414Apr 29, 2011
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rgb86Apr 29, 2011
If they were so anti-religious, why did they support Christianity, but persecuted all others? Hitler disliked organized religion, but was nevertheless a very spiritual man. Or better yet, let's just let him speak for it himself:
"Today they say that Christianity is in danger, that the Catholic faith is threatened. My reply to them is: for the time being, Christians and not international atheists are now standing at Germany’s fore. I am not merely talking about Christianity; I confess that I will never ally myself with the parties which aim to destroy Christianity. Fourteen years they have gone arm in arm with atheism. At no time was greater damage ever done to Christianity than in those years when the Christian parties ruled side by side with those who denied the very existence of God. Germany's entire cultural life was shattered and contaminated in this period. It shall be our task to burn out these manifestations of degeneracy in literature, theater, schools, and the press—that is, in our entire culture—and to eliminate the poison which has been permeating every facet of our lives for these past fourteen years."
--Adolf Hitler; Stuttgart, February 15, 1933
In what way could any of this be construed to support atheism and oppose Christianity? He outright calls Atheists and any Christians who complacently lead alongside such people to be the most damaging persons towards the Christian faith, and advocates putting them to death.
Besides, you're ignoring the basics of motivation. If an atheist murders a person, that does not make it an atheistic crime. Likewise, if a Christian murders someone, that does not inherently make it a religious crime. However, when a Christian murders in the name of their religion (or any religion, for that matter), then it's a completely different matter. There are innumerable atrocities committed in the name of religion, but very few (if any) committed in the name of atheism.
ngc4414Apr 29, 2011
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allibasterJan 30, 2011
Overpopulation is just another reason religion is slowly destroying the world.
norman619Jan 30, 2011
You are a fool. Most developed nations are dominated buy one of the big 3 religions yet only 1 of them has an "overpopulation" problem. In cause your ignorance includes this it is China. All other nations dealing with population issues are 3rd world nations. What do they have in common? Porty and corrupt governments. Small minded people like you are always good for a laugh. Religion is often used to try and pacify the poor.Comment is buried, click here to see the rest.
imagin8Jan 30, 2011
religions create monopolies and then discriminate against all minorities, its not genetic , its monotheism, and its evil...
gulnawaz123Jan 30, 2011
any one follow his/her religion truly thn no problem to others but the religious people( negatively) make dangerous same as some virus protect our body and some are harmful for body.problem is that we are not study the spirituality of religion and we must follow the basic teaching of this and forget the negativeness feeling of religion because every religion give peace and only peace between people
elsadisticoJan 30, 2011
Religious breeders are a bipedal fungus spreading out of control.
ngc4414Apr 29, 2011
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mattye32Jan 30, 2011
why does anyone even bother to argue on this topic?
crapolatimeJan 30, 2011
The Amish are so inbred that new ailments are being named to them.
And the religion elders do have a list of what all the family lines are and consult it for marriage approval/denial.
Closed AccountJan 30, 2011
Stories like this make me very uncomfortable. You are, in effect, saying that my faith is just a random gene.
Hey, perhaps your atheism is a random gene. Perhaps there's a Jew gene and a Muslim gene and a Christian gene?
Maybe, with genetic engineering we can get rid of those traits we see as unacceptable?
Also...s**t like this leads to ignorant and hateful comments like the one above.
"Religious breeders are a bipedal fungus spreading out of control."
This comment is being Dugg. You are referring to me as a "breeder" and a "fungus" and this is acceptable? Pseudo-science justifying hatred. That's all this is.
rgb86Jan 31, 2011
Just a small nitpick, but your point about an atheism gene is unnecessary, since a gene affecting religious beliefs would encompass a lack of beliefs. :-)
CasualfactorsJan 30, 2011
Not exactly what the model said, but close enough to be interesting. Usually reproductive rate decreases as wealth increases, something I'm surprised an econ professor didn't make mention of.
woollymittensJan 30, 2011
God is every bit as real as the easter bunny and santa claus. They have a huge influence on society, just not for the reason "true believers" would appreciate.
zzmeeyJan 30, 2011
I've nothing to say about all the Amish thing. But sooner or later the all of us will be worship to Allah. Just look at this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6-3X5hIFXYU
And it's not a pure religion issue. It's all about nature. Caucasian woman just stopped to give a birth once...Comment is buried, click here to see the rest.
frozenfabulistJan 30, 2011
At least we can look forward to some great computer games like World of Whittling.
Closed AccountJan 30, 2011
Move over Tom Cruise! It's all about Unitology. For life!
bluenoseboyJan 31, 2011
Uh oh.
faithclubdotnetJan 31, 2011
I know God is real. Jesus is LORD.
I too someday would like a wife, but it is harder to find a Christian wife than a regular girlfriend because you can't just go to bars to meet new people.
xrmbJan 31, 2011
<< Atheist with three kids and counting... and I dont know whats going on in your neighborhood, but more kids here are interested in nothing, computer games or sports on Sunday rather than going to church... also in my generation, almost all our parents went to church, me, my friends, nobody gives a sh...
ngc4414Apr 29, 2011
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PriyashaJan 31, 2011
I believe in GOD.I always feel GOD around to me...
aristotle0dudeFeb 1, 2011
This is pseudo science from the Nazi Eugenics program. It belongs in the same category as Phrenology.
Anti-religious bigots AKA National Socialists AKA NAZIS have always tried to use pseudo science to further their aims.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazi_eugenics
If people are trying to advance these theories once again then I fear for human civilization.
aristotle0dudeFeb 1, 2011
Let's humour this pseudo science for a minute. One could turn this on its head and argue that being a militant atheism is a mental illness and is the result of a genetic defect. One could also say that "natural selection" is about to correct that defect by wiping it out of the gene pool.
Or would you rather admit that this is pseudo science and that faith is the result of one's personal life experiences. It is a personal choice. But wait, militant atheist really don't believe in free will. That type of delusional thinking sounds like a mental illness to me. We make choices of free will every day of our lives. You cannot be sentient without free will.
blackrose18Feb 1, 2011
Absolutely ridiculous. There is no such thing as a "religious" gene. This article is complete b.s. and whoever researched it doesn't know how to research correctly, clearly. Whoever wrote it is either terrible at writing or making s**t up.
pinkythewinkyFeb 1, 2011
Genes are very bad for predicting complex behaviour of the mind when we are still struggling to figure out how relatively simple things are affected by genes. Historically religious people do breed more, so whatever is in their genes should become more wide spread. That still does not mean that there is a causal link between the presence of certain genes with personality traits. I am not saying that this is complete BS, but if I had to take a bet i would bet on nurture being the primary influence in making people religious.
It is also hard to measure the outcome of such a study if done in long term. How do you classify someone as being conservative? How do you remove the bias of life experience to determine whether someone who has certain genes has certain personality traits?