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sanmanJan 30, 2011
What next? The US will back another dictator, and more rigged elections for Egypt.
Old habits are hard to break.
karmashockJan 30, 2011
Like Egypt's problems are the US's fault.
I love how every f'ed up country on earth is our fault as if were it not for us the world would be full of sunshine and bluebirds.
Grow up, open your eyes, and see the world for what it is and always has been.
We're doing our best to make the best of consistently s**tty situations. You think the Egyptians left to their own devices would elect a democratic government? Well guess what... we'll never know since the current rebellion is being driven by EXTERNAL forces that want to overthrow the government. The islamic brotherhood is a multinational group that draws support throughout the middle east and north africa. Want to guess what kind of government they'll put in place?
Minorities get ready to get stoned to death. Gay people will probably get hung. And of course while oppressing basically everyone they'll probably take that moment to declare death to the US and Israel because that's what the fundamentalists do on weekdays.
So by all means... torch a stable government in favor of a less stable and even less free state because the rebelling government made protest signs... the only evidence of morality and ethics required if you're not actually paying any attention.
rudegarJan 30, 2011
well you did ruin iran having cia remove their government and hand the country to the shan who turned out to be a really insane sun king
karmashockJan 30, 2011
It was less that he was a sun king that that he was a dictator imposed by an external power. Not a bright moment in US history but it was the cold war.
We did a lot of terrible things during the cold war but we thought we were fighting for the long term freedom of the world from global communism.
Say what you like... we took the threat very seriously at the time and focused most of our resources on thwarting the soviets and their allies. A nationalized iranian oil industry would weaken europe and effectively strengthen the soviets.Comment is buried, click here to see the rest.
scooternrocketFeb 1, 2011
How exactly did is the Iran of today not a worse case scenario ? Back your statements...
karmashockFeb 1, 2011
word that better... I don't know what you're asking or suggesting.
scooternrocketFeb 2, 2011
You claim that America was defending freedom, but most of its major actions such as overthrowing the democratic government of Iran and replacing it w/ the Shah, ended up being extremely short sighted. In fact its a commonly accepted reasoning that Iran would probably still be democratic and almost guaranteed not to be a religious state w/ a nuclear ambition. For all America's meddling, the outcomes have made the world less safe and created countries that hate America for what they are responsible for. Its no secret Arabs hate America, and who can blame them, would you love America, if you knew they were selling/giving guns to help that crcooked dictator that runs your country. Lets not forget in those sorts of countries, everybody knows of someone who was prisoned or killed by the dictator for a causing trouble or daring to complain.
Democracy is an important barometer because in all of history there is only one example of a democracy declaring war another.
Was america really defending freedom or taking advantage of weaker countries to make some rich prick back at home richer.
karmashockFeb 2, 2011
Perhaps the sky would rain gum drops and the dolphins would put on fancy operas. Perhaps perhaps perhaps...
We deal with what is and what is now... what might have been is meaningless.
chrismurphyJan 31, 2011
This is an ignorant post. Islamic Brotherhood was a late comer to the current uprising. It has been 100% internal, Muslim Brotherhood had nothing to do with it. They've only recently started getting involved. There were no externalities, it started when Wahhabis instigated the murders in a Coptic Church, which the Brotherhood denounced and other Muslim groups got together and formed human shields for the Coptics on Christmas. The vast majority of the people demonstrating have been insisting on more transparency, more democracy, they have not been asking for an Islamic government.
karmashockFeb 1, 2011
The Coptic Christians are afraid the new government will oppress them.
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703439504576116222399438428.html?mod=fox_australian
Prominent member of IB calls for war against Israel.
http://www.forexcrunch.com/muslim-brotherhood-wants-war-with-israel/
Wake up.Comment is buried, click here to see the rest.
chrismurphyFeb 1, 2011
Moderate Muslims acted as human shields for Coptic Christians on Coptic Christmas because the government did nothing to protect them on New Year's when reactionaries bombed a church.
http://onfaith.washingtonpost.com/onfaith/guestvoices/2011/01/egyptian_muslims_act_as_human_shields_for_coptic_christmas_mass.html
The fundamentalists are a scant minority, they will not take over. The vast majority have been asking for a secular government, not an Islamic state. The Brotherhood will have a more back seat role in a true democracy than it does in Mubarak's autocracy.
karmashockFeb 1, 2011
And yet the Coptics would rather keep Mubarak then put their fates in the hands of whoever is coming into power now.
Do you know more then them about what is happening?
You say the fundies are a small minority but they don't need to be a majority to rule. They just have to intimidate and shame everyone else into getting out of the way.
They're good at both. First, they're dead scary when they mad. I mean, you had really be prepared to go to war with them. Second, large portions of the population can be shamed into obeying them simply because they're seen as more pious and that matters in muslim countries in ways it no longer has value in the west.
Don't project your own values on to other cultures. That was the mistake Bush made. He assumed that everyone wanted to live like America. Well... don't assume that people are going to behave in a way that you think is rational when they might have their own idea of what is and is not rational.
I'll point out that the fundies are not the majority of Iran either and yet they took over the whole country in a revolution.Comment is buried, click here to see the rest.
chrismurphyFeb 1, 2011
Lies. The Coptics are not supporting Mubarak. No one is supporting Mubarak. The U.S. and the Egyptian military are playing a neutral wait and see game, that's his best support in all of this.
"...the Brotherhood started chanting, "Allah Akbar," and then—which means "God is great" in Arabic. And then the counter chant that was much louder, reverberating over them, was to "Muslim, Christian, we are all Egyptian." And that really symbolizes what’s happening here in Egypt today."
http://www.democracynow.org/2011/1/31/sharif_abdel_kouddous_live_from_egypt
Consistently the overwhelming majority are pushing for a more democratic, secular government. Period. Comments overstating the popularity and numbers of religious fanatics, who do not have a shred of sway with the Egyptian military, are a neurotic waste of time.
karmashockFeb 1, 2011
You're not listening or making any effort to inform yourself... so we're done.
scooternrocketJan 31, 2011
Ever asked yourself who is sold them the guns that Mubarak and his solider goons used over the last 30 years. Ever wonder where the military aid that the US gives each year goes... heres a guess its not going to schools or hospitals, its prolly going to buy guns and shoot up troublemakers..all to keep him in power and protect israel
karmashockJan 31, 2011
The Coptic Christians are afraid the new government will oppress them.
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703439504576116222399438428.html?mod=fox_australian
Prominent member of IB calls for war against Israel.
http://www.forexcrunch.com/muslim-brotherhood-wants-war-with-israel/
Wake up.Comment is buried, click here to see the rest.
scooternrocketFeb 1, 2011
Do you know how to read ? You did not counter one thing i have said.
scooternrocketFeb 1, 2011
The only reason Mubarak as survivied is because he has made a deal to kill any nut who dares to question or cause rtrouble for Israel in any manner. The USA has abasically saacrificed an entire country of 80M+ to a dictator all for Israel.
karmashockFeb 1, 2011
A better question you should ask yourself is why a dictator is needed to keep Egypt from randomly attacking it's neighbors. Then once you've figured that out you might question whether a dictator is justified given that conclusion.
Think or be no different from those that are unable to think.
scooternrocketFeb 1, 2011
What is wrong w/ the USA that they make deals w/ ppl like this, not once but all the time. You cry if Bin Laden flies a plane into a few buildings but its ok to give weapons to every dictators in the middle east as long as they dont attack Israel. Why the f**k do you care about Israel - what have they ever done for you except suck money from American tax payers, and sending American soldiers to die all for their selfish self. Has Israel ever done a single thing to help America besides being a friend who keeps taking...
karmashockFeb 1, 2011
Your pathetic attempt at moral equivalency renders your credibility moot.
Try again... next time call the US nazis or evil space aliens... that should win lots of people over to the nutty side.
scooternrocketFeb 2, 2011
@karmashock, so your proud of America supporting Saudi Arabia even though after all the unforgivable evil they commit against many women for example. Why do you condone such deals...where are your principals.
So how is supporting Israel a good thing for the American tax payer ? What has the billions and trillons that America has given directly or perhaps as a bride to places like Egypt ever helped the average American ?
karmashockFeb 2, 2011
Your mistake idealism for childish naivety.
scooternrocketFeb 2, 2011
Well dont come here and rant about how America is defending freedom, when you know in all reality its actually doing quite the opposite. If anyone has done more to help tyranny and dictators on the world stage in the past 50 years its America. Sure dictators are aresholes but who can boast about giving/selling guns to dozens of dictators. Thats quite an elite group.
karmashockFeb 3, 2011
Wrong.
Just because the US isn't a saint doesn't mean it's a devil.
Just horrible logic... try again.
scooternrocketFeb 3, 2011
Dont divert attention and say hes a bad dictator, the facts today are that you installed him as a puppet just because of Israel.
SO i guess if you r neighbour beats his wife then its ok for you to beat her too. Hmm great example America, lets support those despots in the Middle East, lets help them be even bigger aresholes, for longer in government.
scooternrocketFeb 3, 2011
The US gives life to all these despots, which makes a lot of hatred against them. Think of all the crooked Middle East despots you are supporting just because of Israel. Ever wonder how many people live in those countries and get angry when their own government kills or hurts them w/ American bullets and guns ? Why put yourself in harms way for somebody elses (Israel) problems. You give more money to Israel than to your own people.
karmashockFeb 3, 2011
Right... The US invented dictatorship.
I'm apparently talking to a communist parrot... I'd give you a cracker but I don't have my ration card on me.
scooternrocketFeb 1, 2011
@karma, rudegar mentioned iran and the cia and you have not replied.
karmashockFeb 1, 2011
Where?
scooternrocketFeb 2, 2011
I see you wont answer about Israel - i guess its obvious you are an apologist religious nut who doesnt care if Jesus said to be kind, because Muslims arent real people so its ok to treat them like s**t.
karmashockFeb 3, 2011
I repeat, where didn't I answer you?
scooternrocketFeb 3, 2011
So answer the question, why is America supporting soo many despots in the middleeast including Mubarak and try and be truthful. Egypt has no resources (aka oil) that are of any benefit to America. Given the billions that go there each year and have done so for decades, what exactly does that buy you ?
karmashockFeb 3, 2011
Lesser of evils... I could go into it but you're not listening.
publikjohn9Jan 30, 2011
I have a feeling that Mr. Mubarack is going to be drug through the streets before this is all over.
sirsurfalotFeb 3, 2011
I disagree. If he is a dictator as The Left is portraying him, he will not repeat the mistakes of The Shah of Iran. He will go away when he is good and ready, if at all.
publikjohn9Feb 3, 2011
We shall see.
Closed AccountJan 30, 2011
All out war based on Darwin's theory of evolution, survival of the fittest.
paranor01Jan 30, 2011
You have no clue what Darwin's evolutionary theory says or means if that's what you took from it. Sounds like you'd be an advocate of Eugenics.
Closed AccountJan 30, 2011
While Darwin's Theory of Evolution is a relatively young archetype, the evolutionary worldview itself is as old as antiquity. Ancient Greek philosophers such as Anaximander postulated the development of life from non-life and the evolutionary descent of man from animal. Charles Darwin simply brought something new to the old philosophy -- a plausible mechanism called "natural selection." Natural selection acts to preserve and accumulate minor advantageous genetic mutations. Suppose a member of a species developed a functional advantage (it grew wings and learned to fly). Its offspring would inherit that advantage and pass it on to their offspring. The inferior (disadvantaged) members of the same species would gradually die out, leaving only the superior (advantaged) members of the species. Natural selection is the preservation of a functional advantage that enables a species to compete better in the wild. Natural selection is the naturalistic equivalent to domestic breeding. Over the centuries, human breeders have produced dramatic changes in domestic animal populations by selecting individuals to breed. Breeders eliminate undesirable traits gradually over time. Similarly, natural selection eliminates inferior species gradually over timeComment is buried, click here to see the rest.
paranor01Jan 31, 2011
Natural selection =/= survival of the fittest.
Schweppesale2Jan 31, 2011
In terms of evolution, a species fitness is determined "entirely" by their ability to reproduce. Therefor if I have 20 kids I'm more fit than Arnold Schwarzenegger
Closed AccountJan 31, 2011
never call yourself a student of science
Closed AccountJan 31, 2011
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Survival_of_the_fittest
Darwin first used Spencer's new phrase "survival of the fittest" as a synonym for natural selection in the fifth edition of On the Origin of Species,
paranor01Jan 31, 2011
From the same wikipedia: Darwin meant it as a metaphor for "better adapted for immediate, local environment", not the common inference of "in the best physical shape". Hence, it is not a scientific description.
You've proven yourself a troll, or a person that needs some meds. Have a toke at least... -EOL-Comment is buried, click here to see the rest.
Closed AccountJan 31, 2011
Glad you concur paranor01. "From the same wikipedia: Darwin meant it as a metaphor for "better adapted for immediate, local environment", not the common inference of "in the best physical shape".". i don't believe my statement said best physical shape, let me look "All out war based on Darwin's theory of evolution, survival of the fittest." No didn't say that. I think I said "All out war based on Darwin's theory of evolution,(coma meaning seperation) survival of the fittest." Now talking in the context of Dawin "survival of the fittest" being ""better adapted for immediate, local environment" would make sense. Next time you may want to ask the person to explain further or clarify if your unsure, instead of insinuating a meaning to their statement that allows you to be the troll.
Schweppesale2Jan 31, 2011
Not sure why I'm being buried. If you've ever actually taken a physical anthropology class then you people would know this.
A species evolutionary viability is determined entirely by it's ability to reproduce. Therefore if there was a food shortage subspecies of giant people couldn't find sufficient food to stay alive then they are in fact less fit than a smaller sub species. The trait of being small makes increases their chances fo survival.
Fitness(from evolutionary standpoint) = ability to reproduce. Open a book
Closed AccountJan 31, 2011
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Survival_of_the_fittest
Closed AccountJan 31, 2011
Darwin first used Spencer's new phrase "survival of the fittest" as a synonym for natural selection in the fifth edition of On the Origin of Species,
Closed AccountJan 31, 2011
ELVIS HAS LEFT THE ROOM. thank you Thank you very much
Closed AccountJan 31, 2011
The second thing I would do is look at the coma in the statement and figure out how a coma is used, principally for separating things, ideas in this case. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comma. Then you need to take it up with Darwin since he used the phraze.Comment is buried, click here to see the rest.
sirsurfalotFeb 3, 2011
This is not about Darwin at all. This is about establishment of the Caliphate.
agmlauncherJan 30, 2011
Let's just leave it the f**k alone. Let's improve the fuel efficiency of all our vehicles by 25%, which will be enough to end our need to import oil from the middle east. Then they no longer have leverage over us, and we can choose to ignore them. Israel can handle itself.
Let's focus on us, and not worry about them. We're f**king broke. We have 12 trillion dollars in debt, and we're adding over a trillion every year. Our education system is broken. Our financial system is broken. Our communications system is broken. Our automotive industry is broken. Our healthcare system is broken. Everything is broken.
Let's fix it before we worry about some s**t-hole country.
silviumcJan 30, 2011
There is always the uncomfortable fact that s**t-hole countries will not let US alone. They might sling s**t towards the US. Some of them have nuclear s**t. You cannot ignore s**t-hole countries, these days, they have more than bows and arrows.
karmashockJan 30, 2011
Exactly... given resources and a free hand they seem to start problems out of boredom.
agmlauncherJan 30, 2011
Then commit genocide against said s**t-holes. Make a clear and concise statement: if you attack us, you will disappear from the planet. If you don't know who you can and can't trust, get rid of them all.Comment is buried, click here to see the rest.
Schweppesale2Jan 31, 2011
your stupidity is breath taking.
scooternrocketJan 31, 2011
Goto a history book and learn to count how many dictators around the world would not be there if it wasnt for the USA. Go ask yourself if you had friends like Saddam, the Saud family how many other leaders of freedom have you helped just so some big company could make some money. When those big companieshave proiblems, the US government sends in some poor fools to die...
isa9191Feb 7, 2011
You already did that in Iraq. Great message. The world loves you now.
jhw539Jan 30, 2011
Egypt is Obama's Berlin Wall moment. Leaving it alone is flat out impossible - cutting our aid to Egypt would be a massive move, and leaving it in place is a massive move.
BTW, the US has the best college and university system in the world. Better than any other nation, no contest. Hell, if you break it down into individual states at least 10 of them have a better upper education system than any other nation in the world (and the UK and Germany are pretty damn good).
We're not broke, our economy spews wealth hence the low interest rates those with money are willing to give us for borrowing. Broke nations never, ever, get capital at the rates the US does. Just doesn't happen.
Our financial system is agravating as hell for those who believe in a more equal distribution of wealth, but is surprisingly robust - the "$700 billion bailout", TARP, is now estimated to have only cost $25 billion and dropping (including the GM rescue and the AIG bailout, which stabilized a half dozen other nations).
The world uses our communications technologies and the internet was invented by a US government program and still dominated by US companies.
GM is such a surprising success that The Economist magazine actually changed course and gave Obama a begrudging 'We were wrong, you were right - or lucky.'
Healthcare is a steaming pile, but now that the Democrats have finally put in place a better structure there is little doubt it is on path to be fixed (notice the Republicans are now saying they want reform, just a better one, while when they were in power the status quo was perfect?).
The US is not a s**t-hole country where everything is broken. I have the option of calling just about any nation in the world home, but I was born here and chose to live here because it is still the most powerful and prosperous free nation mankind has ever seen. I'm all for improving our nation, but I'm getting a bit sick of the sky-is-falling bulls**t.
illinestJan 31, 2011
motherf**king dugg.
scooternrocketJan 31, 2011
Sure mate, i wonder if someone gave you a pic of a few cities in Europe or Asia how many you could name...
jhw539Jan 31, 2011
Certainly the one where my father grew up, the couple my father-in-law grew up in, and the dozen or so standard tourist spots I have visited over the years. Is India included as part of Asia? Just back from doing some work over there, although to be honest I probably would have trouble telling Chennai from Hyderabad just by sight (but sure as hell could by weather).
Not really sure what your point is. Both my wife and I have claim to dual citizenship (if we wanted it), when I said I could live in almost any nation in Earth I understood what that meant (and I did not say I could get citizenship in any nation - while I could be employed full time and live in India or China, I would be unable to get citizenship there).
scooternrocketJan 31, 2011
Funny how the uni with the most nobel laurettes is not in the USA...
jhw539Jan 31, 2011
Interesting trivia, but you should be careful how you state it. The university that graduated the most people who *EVENTUALLY* became Nobel laureates is in the UK (which I mentioned has an excellent uni system). But you know what? Those laureates left the UK in many cases. Look at the universities that had the most laureates ON STAFF WHEN THEY WON THEIR PRIZE - the top three are all US. They came to the US to do the work that won them their prize.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Nobel_laureates_by_university_affiliation
The UK has terrible braindrain to the US. Hell, it's why I was born here.
"The universities that have graduated the most Nobel laureates are the University of Cambridge (61), Harvard University (48), and Columbia University (38).
The universities with the most Nobel laureates on academic staff before or at the time of award are Columbia University (60), the University of Cambridge (52), and the University of Chicago (45)."
jhw539Jan 31, 2011
Doh! Should be two of the top three with winners who won while on staff are in the US. Clearly, I am not a laureate myself...
rudegarJan 30, 2011
" which will be enough to end our need to import oil from the middle east"
you fail at understanding economics
the prices are set by world economics unless your government force usa company to sell and only sell to usa and at a price lower then what they could sell to other markets
digghasnoethicsJan 30, 2011
Hmm, some figures
US currently uses about 19-20Mbpd, and about 2/3rds is road transport, or 12.5Mbpd. 25% of that is just over 3Mbpd.
Total oil imports from middle east = 2.3Mbpd - That's mainly because the middle east is a long way away and oil trade is usually with the nearest suppliers.
So in theory you could do as you suggest, except that the rest of the imports -~11Mbpd tend to come from countries like Mexico and Venezuela, where exports are expected to fall. Therefore the US will be increasingly looking to the middle east to make up the shortfall (they are the ones with the big existing reserves). That's likely to push up the import level from that region over time. 25% reduction in oil transportation usage is more to stand still in middle east imports - if you can still get them when China can outbid you.
seldon21Jan 31, 2011
We are in this position because our money = debt. There have been calls for the US to give up the magic check book of late and they will of course have to pry it from our dead cold hands! We are at a crossroads, we can continue in the direction we are currently tied to or we can do something different. Time to make a choice.
dalexandruzJan 30, 2011
We America are a Republic, we have no say when it comes to creating laws. Try protecting yourself from a crazed cop and you will be charged with resisting arrest.Comment is buried, click here to see the rest.
record200Jan 30, 2011
Your military games put the human legacy like pyramids and other antiquities at risk of destruction.
Blessed are the peacemakers,
For they shall be called sons of God.Comment is buried, click here to see the rest.
agmlauncherJan 30, 2011
That religious BS is why the middle east is the way it is.
record200Jan 30, 2011
The people that want violence deserve to be hanged by the balls, imo.
karmashockJan 30, 2011
While you're hanging people from the balls how are people to know that you're not someone that wants violence?
Just curious how we separate the righteous dealers of violence from the unrighteous...
It sounds like it would get confusing.
record200Jan 30, 2011
Your logic fails you as usual if you can't tell the real bloody actions from a reprimand of war-mongers.
karmashockJan 30, 2011
So... if I'm just walking down the street... I'd just know you were righteously handing people by the testicles? As opposed to some group of psychos randomly stringing people up to exploit an atmosphere of fear?
Closed AccountJan 31, 2011
Who said anything about making quick judgments as you are "just walking down the street?"
karmashockFeb 3, 2011
You're talking about doing violence to people that do violence... how would a third party tell you two apart? Because I might have a hard time telling one from the other without some kind of sign.
for example... you could wear uniforms... like the police or military. that's their way of telling people who they are so people understand who the people with machine guns are... and whether people should be concerned about that.
Or you could chant stuff... most of the religious groups give themselves away like that...
Or you could carry signs with repeating catchphrases. If everyone is waving around "save the whales" signs you can make some assumptions about the ideology of the group.
And so on... how would I tell your angry mob from the other angry mob? Because without something I can see or hear I probably won't be able to figure it out until I finally get mutant powers and can read minds.
paranor01Jan 30, 2011
@record200: so you then should be hanged by your own admission of desire for violence should you not?
record200Jan 30, 2011
The bloody belief in democracy is bloody
9channelJan 30, 2011
2012 end of the world
norman619Jan 30, 2011
I hope this is true for the stupid people at least.
rudegarJan 30, 2011
well I'm thinking that the stupid people will make it and start a new society along with the roaches :S
Closed AccountJan 31, 2011
Based on your comment history, you just told the world that you are going to commit suicide some time next year.
norman619Jan 30, 2011
As the middle east is forced to join the modern world we will see more things like this. They have to mix with modern societies and as a result their people will be exposed to ideas what are contradictory to those which have kept them in the dark ages for so long.
karmashockJan 30, 2011
more likely Egypt will become more theistic and less modern... but whatever.
rudegarJan 30, 2011
Egypt is not in the middle east it's in north Africa
middle east in in Asia
doskrautJan 30, 2011
How and why does America send 1 billion dollars a year to a crupet government.and why has the Egyptian people said nothing to America about their supporting the corruption?.unless Egyptian goverment has something in common with americaComment is buried, click here to see the rest.
karmashockJan 30, 2011
Mostly we send them money so they won't cause problems with other countries. It's a "don't bother us" payment.
isa9191Feb 7, 2011
Said nothing to America? you mean like sending an email or letter?
vimrulJan 30, 2011
Nothing gonna happen USA is too smart :)
karmashockJan 30, 2011
You don't know the US very well.
We're smart about some things... but when it comes to this stuff... we don't know what is going on. We're just watching to see what happens at this point.
confuciussayJan 30, 2011
Mubarak (Status Quo)
The Muslim Brotherhood (Another Iran)
Mohamed ElBaradei (Democratic)
Elbaradei is very new to Egyptian politics, he has been away for quite a while as chief inspector for the IAEA. The Muslim Brotherhood is the most prominent opposition group in Egypt, this is what is keeping U.S policy makers and strategist awake.. . Its a touch choice, keep the dictator or rid of him and you could have yourself another Iran.
jacques_martineJan 30, 2011
Hopefully not further madness.
paranor01Jan 30, 2011
Unless they go for a secular government, the madness will continue. Nothing good comes from religious rule.
doskrautJan 31, 2011
yes america sends money,weapons,tear gas,u.s soldiers to train there military.corruption supports corruption
fizzakJan 31, 2011
Who cares about some s**thole country huh? When they shut down the suez canal and your peddling a schwinn to work (if you still have a job) come back and let us know how you feel then.
ParentingCoachLisaJan 31, 2011
this happening should be stop. many lives are lost.