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crom99Jan 31, 2012
Here we go again. Another 400 comment thread about abortion.
jaxativeJan 31, 2012
I just put on a fresh pot of coffee so I'm good for the duration. It always makes me suspicious that the people who scream the loudest against abortion are usually the ones who don't give a damn about humans once they are born.
netmongerJan 31, 2012
..and no pause when dishing out rash remarks like 'kill em all' or 'just nuke em' against people they dont understand or relate to.
clitniblr036Feb 1, 2012
Exactly.
Cleap1Feb 2, 2012
You missed the point of the article. Equal degrading treatment for men and women.
crom99Feb 2, 2012
I wasn't commenting on the article, I was commenting on the ensuing comment wank for which the article is a catalyst.
mischiffJan 31, 2012
I completely agree with Sen. Janet Howell. This is a waste of resources motivated by misogyny and the anti-abortion crusade.
HumanWikiJan 31, 2012
Yes, because a woman being made to fully understand and see the lifeform she is about to have killed is completely the same as a man having a finger inserted in to his ass just to get medications to help with erectile dysfunction. There can't possibly be any men in the world that need help with ED that are fathers, in loving relationships, etc.
Not even close to the same thing. Women need to understand that they are committing murder with an abortion.. I'm not trying to stop them from doing it, but they need to stop with this "it's my body bulls**t".. It's not just your body, now is it? No. It's your body and the unborn child as well.Comment is buried, click here to see the rest.
doodlemasterJan 31, 2012
No, it's her body, and no one elses.
The "unborn child" is nothing more than a bundle of cells with no conscious or purpose.
Except for what the morally superior** religious tell us it has.
HumanWikiJan 31, 2012
Incorrect and I'm not religious either. You're still killing a life form. end of story.
doodlemasterJan 31, 2012
No you're not killing a life form, and if you have issues with "killing life" in general then I can only assume you're a vegan, but you're probably not.
In any-case, you're not killing a life form you're preventing the creation of a life form. There's a big difference and it's not just semantics.
But if you can't figure that out for yourself then there's nothing I can possibly say that would make you change your mind otherwise.
HumanWikiJan 31, 2012
No, you are still incorrect. It is a life form. It may not yet be self aware, but it is a life form and if you can't understand that, then I'm sorry for you.Comment is buried, click here to see the rest.
doodlemasterJan 31, 2012
Again, if you can't tell the difference nothing I saw will ever change your mind.
foneguy2Jan 31, 2012
doodlemaster - i am sorta with you so far. a few questions -
1. when does the "bundle of cells with no conscious or purpose" become a life form? and is it ok to abort up to that point?
2. is it ok for a woman to use abortion as a birth control method?
3. is a life form a life form i.e. killing a human = killing a cow?
gregwhitworthFeb 1, 2012
@foneguy2, @humanWiki, @doodlemaster
I am for birth control, even the plan b pill. A lot of the ideas of why abortion should exist are valid (the person wouldn't love it, etc). But I draw the line at about week 3 as that is when the heart and brain begin to develop.
Seeing as how most people that aren't trying for a child (and thus this would account for the majority of abortions) don't even suspect that they are pregnant until a missed period (and women can often have a period even when pregnant [this all depends on the time conception took place] ), this allows us to assume that most abortions occur after week 3 (also stats show that 52% of all abortions occur around week 9).
So basically they are a bunch of cells, but at what point can you say it is a life. Is it when the brain is function ( well that is at weeks 3 - 6, still 3 weeks earlier than when the average abortion occurs).
So to conclude, my biggest issue with abortion is that everyone's idea of when the cells become a life is speculative (is it when the heart is formed, brain, spinal cord, etc). So I would err on the safe side and not abort the child.
Sources:
http://www.americanpregnancy.org/duringpregnancy/fetaldevelopment1.htm
http://www.abortionno.org/Resources/fastfacts.html
Cleap1Feb 2, 2012
The republicans are trying to prevent fetal deaths, but think nothing of killing people in war for money, or war for oil. Something is very wrong here.
adaguyFeb 1, 2012
'You're still killing a life form'
And you're not killing life when you use a condom? How do you think sperm are able to swim if they are not alive?
foneguy2Feb 2, 2012
sperm does not equal fetus just as cheese does not equal a cheese omelet - you need eggs. No matter how the sperm (or the cheese) is nurtured, it will never turn into a fetus (or an omelet).
@adaguy: please tell, at what point during gestation, is it wrong to kill a fetus/baby?
brsox2445Feb 1, 2012
You are 100% right. Until the fetus is viable outside the mother it is nothing more than a tumor quite frankly. If we let these people take over our medicine then you won't be able to remove tumors or other things made out of our DNA because it can be considered a life by someone with too much time on their hands.
netmongerJan 31, 2012
Abortion is *NOT* murder and you are a jerk for repeating this myth, once again. The majority of fertilized eggs do NOT successfully implant in the uterus - i.e. this happens *all the time* naturally. A fetus isnt a 'person'. A 'person' has a self awareness, and memory, and a *brain*. There is no 'soul' - nothing gets 'lost'. If you wanna believe unproven fairy tale nonsense yourself fine, but *stop* calling people who do NOT believe there is anything at all wrong with abortion, a 'murderer'. Its nothing but sick, and we're tired of your crazy ramblings and insults.
jaxativeJan 31, 2012
As an atheist I have to give a hearty amen to that.
dingedarmorJan 31, 2012
You might want to exclude 'self' aware--I know adults who haven't achieved that yet.
:D
kb29Feb 1, 2012
Spontaneous miscarriage or failure to implant is a natural occurrence, a medical procedure is inherently not a natural occurrence. Though the results are the same, the means are different. This point of yours is therefore irrelevant.
Your qualifications for a "person" are incorrect. Is not a human without self awareness a person? Is not a human without memory a person? What do you say then, about individuals with mental defects that preclude their ability to form self awareness or memories?
That leaves your qualification of having a brain, which you placed an emphasis on. Most forms of life have a brain or, at the very least, a collection of cells that process external stimuli, but we do not give them the same rights or considerations as we do the human species.
You need to work on your argument.
johnnysoftwareFeb 1, 2012
Just to amplify on one point you mentioned near the end, even "slime mold" is now thought to have a brain and intelligence.
http://www.neatorama.com/2011/12/30/slime-molds-solve-maze/
http://www.weirdasianews.com/2012/01/12/slime-hold-key-human-intelligence/
http://news.discovery.com/tech/slime-mold-computer-111229.html
adaguyFeb 1, 2012
It doesn't matter what we think when it comes to abortion. As long as the supreme court says that life begins at birth, it's foolish to even bring this up. It's just a "whipping boy" for the republickin' party and the religious right wing.
FeuerFryeJan 31, 2012
And requiring all insurance plans to carry birth control isn't misogyny? Shouldn't a woman have the right to know the risks of abortion and what she is choosing to destroy? Abortion is one of the terrible results of trying to disconnect morality from justice.Comment is buried, click here to see the rest.
UncleRuckuJan 31, 2012
These conservatives are really something, aren't they? They are all in favor of the unborn, they will do anything for the unborn, but once you're born, you're on your own! Pro-life conservatives are obsessed with the fetus from conception to nine months. After that they don't want to know about you, they don't want to hear from you Oh yes and "let a baby be born" to a mother who cannot care for it or someone who does not want it and then whose responsibility is it? Yours
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jPBjAYk3smY
To the Gop Well, put it back. It doesn't belong to you.
gregwhitworthFeb 1, 2012
I actually almost stated this in my above comment that I think the GOP are hypocritical in this area (and both sides are hypocritical, but I digress).
I always think that it should be somewhere in the middle with a national healthcare system, as I have been in the unfortunate circumstance where I had to ask the question, "Should I take my little girl to see the doctor? Can we afford that."
No one should have to ask those questions, and if you haven't had to ask those questions then you shouldn't have an opinion on this subject. The more that time goes on the more I recognize that I am WAY more in the middle than I am to the right.
I liken it to me thinking that there shouldn't be handicap spots because it's pointless, although I've never had a need for them.
assassyn360Feb 1, 2012
I have been saying this for years. They don't want to stop them from coming into the world, and don't want to help them when they are here.
adaguyFeb 1, 2012
Perhaps they want to insure a large population for corporate America to choose from. Remember, a large pool of workers means you can pay them less.
jaxativeJan 31, 2012
hmm a foetus is a lifeform just as the bacteria that reside in my colon or the ectoparasites that reside on my skin, millions of which die every day. I can't wait to see the day that one of your great nations GOP "leaders" decide to ban soap and antibiotics to preserve "life". Even though I am a male I still reserve the right to kill or remove any lifeforms that reside in or on me. You oh so noble Americans reserve the right to nuke the world rather than lose a war but "life" is so damn precious to you
johnnickJan 31, 2012
All you have to do, Jax, is get the Catholic Church to say that intestinal flora is "life" and subject to the protections of the 10 Commandments.
jaxativeJan 31, 2012
But will they oppose birth control for "invisible" lifeforms?
johnnickFeb 1, 2012
They already do. That's why they keep claiming there's a war on religion.
chassupFeb 1, 2012
A fetus is a human person. "Life form" is a pathetic label to make your case and explains your seeming hatred for humanity in general.
And, yes, human life is "so damn precious" to me... even yours.
justa__free__thinkerJan 31, 2012
Not going to get into the "right and "wrong" of it all. But I think it's time we butt out of what should be to all involved a "private" matter.
If the Government came up with a law tomorrow that they could walk into every home and inspect it for anything "illegal". We would be hitting the streets in protest.
But many find no problem with telling a woman what she can do with what is inside her.
If these laws ever get passed. What's next ? Blood tests for all to make sure we are eating right? after all, lots of sick people have an effect on a country to.
Just remember once you start to demand your fellow human beings should have less rights then it won't be long before you find that you also have less then before.
chassupFeb 1, 2012
Can a minor girl be legally taken by an adult, without her parents' knowledge or permission, to get a tatoo, a piercing, a blood test? NO!
Can an adult legally have sex with a minor? NO!
Can a minor child bring a bible to school for use as personal reading material? NO, not in my county.
Aren't these private matters as well? Should the government get out of these cases too?
Are you guilty of selective outrage?
foneguy2Feb 1, 2012
I would add other private matters:
Can an adult sell THEIR body for sex with another consenting adult? NO!
Can an adult sell part of THEIR body (organs) for money? NO!
Can one adult euthanize another consenting adult? NO!
There is more to the argument than "abortion is not murder".
Please provide specifics, yes or no to this question -
Can any woman's/girl's fetus be aborted at any time during gestation?
If not, why not?
chassupFeb 1, 2012
"Can any woman's/girl's fetus be aborted at any time during gestation? If not, why not?"
In the USA today, the answer is yes, up and to the point where the fetus is completely out of the woman's body, save for the head, which a doctor is allowed to pierce, suck out the brains and crush, killing the baby.
If this is not where your passion leads, you must define a different set of rules, but be careful, you may not be arbritary, you must justify "some but not all"... moral relativism is your trap.
foneguy2Feb 1, 2012
Right - so the whole "I should be able to do what I want with what's inside my body" argument loses steam when the fetus is killed outside of the woman's body.
I just want some specifics from the pro-abortion side - i.e. other than location, how is a 5 minute-old baby different from what it was 10 minutes before? In other words, what happens to that 'lifeform' during those 15 minutes that changes your opinion about killing it?
chassupFeb 1, 2012
There is right, and there is wrong, good and evil. The defenders of the culture of death require a morality based on personal opinion, emotions, and selfishness.
Things like virtue, mercy and love are hurdles they can not get around. That's why they always tirn to anger, hate and viciousness at some point in the argument. It is a mark of Satan's influence.
adaguyFeb 2, 2012
"@adaguy: please tell, at what point during gestation, is it wrong to kill a fetus/baby?"
I have no opinion om such matters, as it doesn't matter what your opinion is, things won't change until the constitution is amended, and that ain't likely in your lifetime.
We have a constitution, when you agree with it, you scream bloody murder anytime it isn't enforced. But when you don't agree with it, you scream bloody murder because you dislike the way it is upheld. You can't have it both ways.
This issue was visited by the supreme court back when there were 7 republickins and 2 democrats on the Supreme Court, but they still came down on the same side as before.
Everyone wants things done their way, but this ain't gonna happen.
jaxativeJan 31, 2012
Apologies to all for my anti American rant but the level of influence the US has over my nation(Australia) and the rest of the world makes me worry for the future of the human race. My reading of the recent DIGG articles regarding the current GOP presidential candidates and especially the http://digg.com/news/politics/the_dirty_thirty_the_gop_s_rights_killing_agenda_for_america have been raising my anxiety levels lately. That being said the ones who proclaim their christianity the loudest seem to be the ones who are the furtherest away from the teachings of Jesus Christ the man they are supposed to worship.
chassupFeb 1, 2012
Good for Virginia. Erring on the side of caution is not only reasonable, rational and objective, but it's merciful, just and a moral duty of a civil society.
Tahnk God for the 10th amendment. (and the 2nd)
linageeFeb 1, 2012
What if the woman closes her eyes to refuse looking at the ultrasound picture? Do they force her eyes open?
chassupFeb 1, 2012
A woman has her eyes closed at every abortion.
jaxativeJan 31, 2012
Just a thought... if more mens sexual partners were to stick a little finger up in there, there would be a lot less need for viagra. Not judging anyone just putting it out there(butt not in there).
igorunchainedJan 31, 2012
My thoughts exactly. Who needs viagra when you can get your prostate massaged just by going to a doctor and mentioning Viagra.
"Dr Shopping" is going to have less to do with finding a Dr who will give you pills and more to do with finding a good looking practitioner. Did I say one finger? I meant two....
jaxativeFeb 1, 2012
I don't want to point the finger of blame here, who knows where we will end up...or up end.
aikomikoFeb 1, 2012
Just wait. As soon as that invention company from late night TV helps me sell my Home Abortion Machine these debates will be obsolete. It doesn't have an ultrasound but there's a periscope and flashlight that should work.
seidnuFeb 1, 2012
why would people waste money on that when a coat hanger does the trick and it doesnt cost 19.99 only way that would sell is if you gave them 2 for that price or gave them them a food slicer at no additional cost
aikomikoFeb 2, 2012
Because you want the fetus chopped evenly for use in salsa.
seidnuFeb 2, 2012
yep that sounds good and all but I have a coat hanger right here
seidnuFeb 2, 2012
I want to be the host for that infomercial.
seidnuFeb 2, 2012
tired of falling down the stairs, tired of explaining why you punched her in the stomach. look no further. Its the Abort-a-matic. Based on vacuum tech developed my nasa it will suck that little bastard right out. Order now and we will send you 1001 uses for an aborted fetus free of charge.
p2k2000Feb 1, 2012
At what point does a sperm and egg transform into one? That union is the first stage of being a human being. It's common sense.
aikomikoFeb 1, 2012
And common sense dictates that a bundle of unformed cells does not have conscious thought.
But I love that pic of you next to the words common sense. LOL!Comment is buried, click here to see the rest.
chassupFeb 1, 2012
So your definition of "human being" is: has conscious thought.
Can I kill you while you are unconscious?
Is a 1 month old baby posses conscious thought?
Try again, you can do better.
johnnysoftwareFeb 1, 2012
The tests are not safe anyway. It's all over the news this week.
http://www.presstv.ir/usdetail/224201.html
Some FDA whistleblowers are making a case spying on them.
They became whistleblowers because they think some machines approved by the agency are unsafe, in their opinion. They were the ones that evaluated the machinery for the agency.
The spying caused the issue to get plenty of attention.
Virginia did not notice as close as it is to Washington D.C.?Comment is buried, click here to see the rest.
assassyn360Feb 1, 2012
What next, piss and breath test for everyone before your vehicle starts.
Registration every single time you have sex.
Let this s**t through then it opens the door for other stupid laws.Comment is buried, click here to see the rest.
alice698488Feb 1, 2012
heres what it looks like for women.. haha.. pics here.... http://bit.ly/nu00UJ