huffingtonpost.com — U.S. students rank poorly in proficiency on both domestic and international math exams, a problem that could cost the country $75 trillion over 80 years, according to a new study. U.S. students fall behind 31 countries in math proficiency and behind 16 countries in reading proficiency, according to the report released Wednesday, titled "Globally Challenged: Are U.S. Students Ready to Compete?"
Feb 3, 2012 View in Crawl 4
elcalrissianFeb 3, 2012
Pretty Sad.
Its not surprising.
Ever have a $5.07 tab at Mc Donalds, give them a $20, let the Cashier punch in $20, and then you hand the Kid another Dime, because you dont want 14.93 in change, you want that solid $15 bucks in your pocket!
Anyway, that above scenario in my personal experience usually involves the Cashier unable to process the change in money given, and account for the fact that your change should now be higher.
1 story of simple maths fail, and the reason I've been negative on the ability of America to actually produce good workers. Seems like it takes professional reports for some people to believe things they see every day.
sloppyjoes7Feb 3, 2012
That sounds apocryphal, but has actually happened to me. And even worse, the cashier was a 30-year-old woman, and not a kid.
jaketyson85Feb 4, 2012
dude plz. this is not the norm for everyone. yeah there are some dimmer bulbs in the chandelere, but overall america is in the top 10 educated countries in the world. its not like were still not the #1 place to live on earth. people so damn critical and hateful towards america these days i swear.Comment is buried, click here to see the rest.
dauntless1Feb 4, 2012
Actually, no. We're not stil number one. Haven't been for some time.
barackalypseFeb 3, 2012
Lets take 2 groups of students. You teach yours how to add, subtract, multiply, and divide in their heads and on manually paper and drill the multiplication tables up to 12. You teach them how to do those same things with fractions as well.
I'll teach mine what addition, subtraction, multiplication, and division are and explain what fractions are, and then show them how to use a calculator to do actually perform those calculations. Then I'll take the next 3 months I have saved by not actually teaching them how to do it by hand to teach them how to program.
At the end of it, yours will be able to handle the change situation in your McDonalds example, and mine won't be working at McDonalds because they've actually learned skills that can't be done with a 99 cent calculator.Comment is buried, click here to see the rest.
penglustFeb 3, 2012
And they will still have no conception of how number relate to each other and have no idea if those programs give results that mean anything.
The basics are necessary.
barackalypseFeb 3, 2012
No, the CONCEPTS are necessary, the actual mechanics of performing the calculations are not.
penglustFeb 4, 2012
I would agree that spending years doing sheets of math problems over and over is a waste of time. However, a kid doing them until they come natural is not.
MusicManGPFeb 3, 2012
I don't know what kinds of things you'd expect those kids to program while having such a rudimentary understanding of mathematics.
barackalypseFeb 4, 2012
I said I would teach them what the mathematical operations are (what they represent), I just wouldn't waste time teaching them the actual mechanics of performing the calculations on them. This means that while my kids couldn't multiply numbers themselves, they would understand what multiplication meant and be perfectly capable of using that concept in a program.Comment is buried, click here to see the rest.
MusicManGPFeb 4, 2012
What they represent and how they work go hand in hand. I agree rote memorization is pointless, as is requiring that students be able to perform such operations in their head.
But, if a student can't handle addition/subtraction/multiplication/division on paper, they're going to have a lot of problems moving much beyond arithmetic. And I don't think it's a good idea to assume that most students won't have any reason to move beyond arithmetic.
barackalypseFeb 4, 2012
Here's the problem though, I think the schools are way too focused on the mechanics of the math, the steps one uses to calculate the answer and not enough on the theory behind it.
Lets take multiplication for instance. Once you've explained what it is, ie: that 3x2 is like adding three groups of 2 together, everything else is just memorization until you hit 2 digit numbers and then the only thing that happens is that you have to explain what a base 10 number is and how you multiply the ones columns of the second number against the ones column of the first number and carrying to the 10's column if needed, etc.
If a student doesn't comprehend why they are doing the carrying, everything from that point forward is just regurgitation of a process they really don't understand, such that even though they can get the right answer, they don't really know why they are doing it, except that they were told to. And at that point, you may as well just enter it into a calculator and get the right answer everytime because you aren't driving home any higher level concepts about the nature of numbers of multiplication.Comment is buried, click here to see the rest.
MusicManGPFeb 4, 2012
I agree that the theory is too often overlooked and substituted with a "just because." But I don't follow how your recommended solution to that is "just use a calculator" rather than "teach them everything they should know."
barackalypseFeb 4, 2012
@MusicManGP, because the ready availability of technology has changed what they need to know. Just like it would be stupid to spend hours making them memorize the atomic weights of all the elements when you could instead spend an hour explaining how to use the periodic table of the elements,I would argue it is similarly pointless to have them memorize multiplication tables and waste time learning how to do long division when calculators are easily available.Comment is buried, click here to see the rest.
craig1958Feb 4, 2012
You are suggesting that we teach mathematics instead of just teaching arithmetic, two completely different things. Arithmetic is simply one of the tools required to perform mathematics; which is normally taught in elementary school. I personally don't care about getting the correct change at McDs (if I went there), but I am concerned about the lack of actual mathematical skills among people who are supposedly educated.
quisquisFeb 3, 2012
You have a perception bias I think. You assume it must be their inability to do math because you've already come up with the answer and expect them to be in the frame of mind required to also come up with the answer quickly.
As someone who has sat there blankly trying to figure out someone's change when they give me a different amount than I punched in, I can tell you that it has nothing to do with their ability to do math. It has to do with working at such a mindless job you actually turn your brain off.
I claim that I'm not bad at math based on my record of As throughout college in math up to this semester. I am currently taking Differential Equations/Linear Algebra.
Closed AccountFeb 4, 2012
I blame the teachers union!! ;-x
wolfingFeb 3, 2012
yes but I bet we can beat them in basketball!
Sad that we value sports more than intelligence
nitoriFeb 4, 2012
Schools need more hands on programs to kindle an interest in science and engineering.
It's difficult to probably teach science and engineering just out of a book.
Math and science are deeply intertwined.
For example some simple trigonometry and algebra can tell you the stress in a beam and building something based on that math will show you it's real world use.
Also the science teacher should not also be named coach unless the coach also holds a degree in science which is unlikely.
craig1958Feb 3, 2012
US secondary schools do not require a significant amount of math education to graduate. In my state a high school graduate is only required to complete 2 years of math, compared to 4 years of english and social studies. This requirement can be met with a couple of classes of bonehead math (really just arithmetic).
If you look at college freshman, you will see that the American students are significantly less prepared than those students from other countries. Many freshman are not even prepared to take an entry level calculus class because they can't even perform basic algebra.
barackalypseFeb 3, 2012
And when was the last time you factored a quadratic equation or multiplied a polynomial? The issue is we're teaching kids a lot of skills most of them will never need (and the ones that will need them will use Matlab anyway) and we're neglecting to teach them skills that actually matter like critical thinking and the scientific method.Comment is buried, click here to see the rest.
stealthspcFeb 4, 2012
This is very true. People who are digging you down are ignorant. Learning financial math is far more important.
craig1958Feb 4, 2012
What, exactly, is "financial math"?
starfishsystemsFeb 4, 2012
"What, exactly, is 'financial math'?"
Principally, it's applied algebra. The application of exponential functions and their inverses to compound interest would be one example. Systems of linear equations applied to complex hull optimization would be another.
craig1958Feb 4, 2012
Exactly the type of math that is based on the high school algebra classes that many kids don't take. It would be nice if the average high school graduate understood how a mortgage payment was calculated.
dauntless1Feb 4, 2012
@craig1958
Heh. After my algebra classes and then doing cost and mortgage calculations for the bank, what I'm mainly aware of is how badly 99 percent of mortgage holders are getting f**ked right in the ass.
craig1958Feb 4, 2012
Actually, I spend a fair about of my time up to my elbows in engineering analyses that are pretty complex. You are correct, most people don't have the skills to do the required math. The ones that know just enough to plug numbers into software are particularly dangerous.
I'm not suggesting that everyone has to take calculus in high school (although anyone going in a technical field probably should), but a minimum of four years of math would be appropriate; even if it's "business math."
stealthspcFeb 4, 2012
Business math is appropriate. It's really strange that we teach concepts that are career specific to everybody. If you need to learn that math then do it in college. Scientists know that the brain forgets things it doesn't use. They are just wasting peoples time and energy. It's pretty simple.
craig1958Feb 4, 2012
There is no way someone could complete a technical undergrad degree in four years without having a working knowledge of calculus during their freshman year. That is equivalent to telling an english major that they should learn how to read in college. Plenty of people spend an extra year in college because the have to take remedial classes (at a cost of $10-30K).
Not everyone needs to master applied math at a high level in high school, but they should at least understand the basic concepts. Four years of business math is fine if thats what you need, but that is not even a graduation requirement in many states.
Basis math is not a career specific concept any more than basic literacy is a career specific skill. Many would consider four years of high school social studies a waste of time (I did at the time), but it is generally required for graduation. Let's not worry too much about waisting our kids' precious time.
bille3Feb 4, 2012
The systematic dumbing down of the population makes them much easier to manipulate through the media and enslave them to the state. They truly become useful idiots.
reallyevilcaninFeb 4, 2012
It's OK as long as they're reading their bibles.
bille3Feb 3, 2012
Look up the 8th grade test for 1895.
There are university graduates that could not complete that test.
That does not speak well about the history of our educational system as government involvement grew.
drmangrumFeb 3, 2012
It's a systemic problem. In the 19th and early 20th centuries, education was a privilege few could utilize. Only the kids that wanted (or forced by their parents) to be there were there. They put forth the required effort to learn the material.
Then education became a "right" instead of a privilege (don't read that to mean I don't think everyone deserves a chance at an education). Now the school rosters are polluted with children that don't take it seriously. The curriculum is then dumbed down so everyone has a chance at success.
If we allowed schools to fail students and get the time wasters out of the system, then the other students could excel.
craig1958Feb 4, 2012
I started to type a long reply about the relevance of that information to the 21st century, but here is the snopes.com link instead:
http://www.snopes.com/language/document/1895exam.asp
scabnabbitFeb 3, 2012
"Of all 50 U.S. states, only Massachusetts had half or more of its students performing at or above the NAEP proficiency mark. Mississippi ranked lowest."
Having lived in Memphis for a time with acquaintances from/in Mississippi, this comes as absolutely no surprise.
Science too!
http://digg.com/newsbar/topnews/your_state_sucks_at_science
(Shockingly - to me - MS apparently is a "C" in science.)
nitoriFeb 4, 2012
They need to do more to tie math in with real life problems vs having being taught as a boring theory.
BTW the US educational system is not the only one in crisis even ones that score well on the standardized tests have some very serious issues.
For example many high school graduates in Japan and South Korea lack important social skills and important skills for life on their own.
The educational system in many European countries can only be described as horribly out of date.
craig1958Feb 4, 2012
No, they really don't have to water down the curriculum to avoid boring you. They will present the information; you can either learn it or not.
Regarding asian countries; drop in on a technical class in any american grad school and see who the majority of the students are. Social skills or not, they are kicking the american students' asses.
nitoriFeb 4, 2012
You post is one of the most stereotypical popular media view point peices of baloney I've seen.
Yes the grass always seems greener on the other side of the fence but in reality it's not.
On the social problems in Asia try searching the term hikikomori which is an epidemic in much of asia and the high stress school system is one of the big contributing factors.
Your future is determined early on there by a test
An interesting fact Japanese schools rarely have special ed classes so if a student having trouble and their parents cannot afford a juku they drop out and thus are not included in the total average score.
First I did not say water math down instead show students it actually has real world uses.Comment is buried, click here to see the rest.
craig1958Feb 4, 2012
I'm not saying the asian education system is perfect; I'm saying that they are capable of producing secondary school graduates that are much more prepared for college than american high school graduates. I have competed against these folks, they know their stuff and they take education very seriously (maybe because their early education was so competitive). That "stereotype" extends to second generation students who's parents have retained that culture.
A friend of mine was educated in Iran (before the revolution); listening to him describe a secondary school math class was impressive. I doubt most american undergrads could keep up. These are the folks who invented much of modern mathematics.
If american students can't figure out why learning "boring" math concepts is important, they have no business in a high school classroom. If asian secondary schools are too rigorous and too competitive, american schools have gone much too far in the opposite direction.
hotsauce126Feb 3, 2012
The people that make the percentage so low aren't going to have any impact on the GDP
barackalypseFeb 3, 2012
Exactly. Who cares if the guy changing your tires at Walmart can factor a quadratic equation? Most of the math they teach in school will all be done via calculator or computer anyway, so all they really need to take away from 12 years of math education is what addition, subtraction, multiplication, division, fractions, and decimals represent and how to punch them in to your calculator.Comment is buried, click here to see the rest.
MusicManGPFeb 3, 2012
That's the point.
barackalypseFeb 4, 2012
No, it isn't, he's saying the issue isn't that these kids don't know math, its that the factors that made them score low in math in the first place would cause them never to be great contributors to GDP, regardless of what their math scores are.
MusicManGPFeb 4, 2012
That's assuming it's the kids fault; that they could never be good at math.
craig1958Feb 4, 2012
"The people that make the percentage so low aren't going to have any impact on the GDP"
Well, they certainly won't have a positive impact on the GDP. However, they may show up in the unemployment numbers.
nitoriFeb 4, 2012
Maybe knowing quadratic theory is not important to 95% of the people out there but everyone should know how to calculate an interest rate and balance their check book.
If more people knew more about finance the housing bubble could have been avoided.
dauntless1Feb 4, 2012
If more people were aware how badly the banks have mangled the mortgage system here in the US, the housing bubble could have been avoided as well.
barackalypseFeb 3, 2012
I think the problem is what we're teaching hasn't evolved to consider the power and ubiquitous nature of technology that is easily capable to performing any calculations you would run into in primary and secondary education. So what if kids can't do long division or even multiply numbers, they don't need to, their phones can, they simply need to understand the concept of what multiplication or division are, the technology will crunch the actual numbers.Comment is buried, click here to see the rest.
sloppyjoes7Feb 3, 2012
That should actually just allow them to skip the small stuff, and learn higher mathematics sooner.
For example, they don't have to teach how to use a slide rule any more. sin/cos/tan are solvable without a table at the back of the book. Massive matrix functions can be solved quickly.
craig1958Feb 4, 2012
I don't believe you understand the difference between mathematics and arithmetic. However, I actually agree that elementary schools should spend less time on rote memorization and repetitive operations, and more time on conceptual math. The problem is that high schools allow students to take "football theory" in place of algebra I.
nitoriFeb 4, 2012
This I agree with that foot ball theory is not a replacement for a math class.
I also think everyone should be required to take a financial maths course.
I've seen people who know calculus but don't know how to balance their check book or see if an interest rate is a rip off.
craig1958Feb 4, 2012
No problem with that. If someone really understand math, it's just a different application. Until you get into very serious economic theory, financial applications are not really that complex. I would build it into a required high school math class, it might help some students to see a different application than the usual silly text book problems.
sloppyjoes7Feb 3, 2012
Clearly, the solution to our failing educational system is to change absolutely nothing, but pay teachers more.
Or, you know, we could go to a voucher or charter school system, and allow failing schools to go away.Comment is buried, click here to see the rest.
sattireattireFeb 4, 2012
what? you don't think throwing more money at our teachers will fix the problem? well...those teachers would beg to differ! spending has always been the solution right? if you owe too much, you just keep on spending. credit card is maxed? keep trying and spending! the card will eventually fix itself. can't afford your mortgage? wtf, just buy a new car or something and then you will be able to afford the mortgage.
easy easy.Comment is buried, click here to see the rest.
nitoriFeb 4, 2012
The solution is to hire teachers who have a passion for teaching and are willing to help and inspire their students.
If a person does not have these qualities they are unfit to be a teacher.
sloppyjoes7Feb 4, 2012
That is impossible under the current system. Hirings and firings are based on seniority and education, as per union contracts.