businessinsider.com — Caving? It looks like Obama will cave on his stand against the Catholic Church.
ABC's Jake Tapper reports the White House will likely announce an attempt to accommodate religious groups on mandatory contraceptive coverage later today.
One source tells ABC the White House may offer a plan that lets religious groups opt out of contraceptive coverage as long as they inform employees beforehand.
Feb 10, 2012 View in Crawl 4
ferretmanFeb 10, 2012
Interesting...we'll have to see how this shakes out.
eraptorFeb 10, 2012
"See how it shakes out"?
Stick a fork in this issue because it's DONE...along with Republican hopes of distracting the American people from their disastrous economic and job creation records.
austinjameshereFeb 10, 2012
The lengths Republicans will go to in order to distract - it's astonishing. Things like this just completely stump them because they have no idea what a compromise is. In their world it's one side wins and one side loses - all or nothing... and that's just not how the real world works. They were hoping to drag this dead horse issue until the general election, and now they will have to fabricate a new crisis.Comment is buried, click here to see the rest.
linuxpersonFeb 10, 2012
Republicans... waaaaah!!! Republicans... waaaaah!!!
You are a broken record kid, spare us your partisan drivel. Over half your comments mention Republicans, get over it. Republicans and Democrats are essentially the same exact party with different talking points.
austinjameshereFeb 10, 2012
Oh please, it's Linux once again here to say, there's no difference between Republicans and Democrats so just vote Republican. I want politicians who compromise, I'll give you a second to look up what the word means. There's liberals that are upset with this deal and conservatives who are still upset with that deal - Compromise, it's not going to cause the sky to fall, gramps.Comment is buried, click here to see the rest.
njdoo7Feb 10, 2012
Nobody cares what you think when you are wrong.
You cannot compromise on principle, and yes obamney will 2012 and it wont change the direction the country is headed.
linuxpersonFeb 10, 2012
"Oh please, it's Linux once again here to say, there's no difference between Republicans and Democrats so just vote Republican."
Look at the college kid making s**t up again... how predictable. The only thing I have ever advocated for in terms of voting is NOT voting at all in any coercive system.
truthroxFeb 10, 2012
@linuxperson,
"The only thing I have ever advocated for in terms of voting is NOT voting at all in any coercive system."
Voter suppression is evidence of someone with a Conservative/Libertarian leaning since high voter turnout does not favor their agenda. Thanks, but no thanks. Electoral negligence empowers Conservative morons. We witnessed as much in 2010.
The only way to improve economic conditions in this country and create jobs is to actively vote against every Conservative running for office since they offer no credible solutions whatsoever.Comment is buried, click here to see the rest.
linuxpersonFeb 11, 2012
People who don't vote and denounce both political parties actually support Republicans without even knowing it? Interesting logic, if you can even call it that.
whitezombie7689Feb 11, 2012
OK... Off topic, guys and gals. Take it to another forum. We're talkin' Catholics and condoms here, not political droning.
truthroxFeb 12, 2012
@linuxperson,
"The only thing I have ever advocated for in terms of voting is NOT voting at all in any coercive system."
Voter suppression is evidence of someone with a Conservative/Libertarian leaning since high voter turnout does not favor their agenda. Thanks, but no thanks. Electoral negligence empowers Conservative morons. We witnessed as much in 2010.
The only way to improve economic conditions in this country and create jobs is to actively vote against every Conservative running for office since they offer no credible solutions whatsoever.
The censorship efforts to silence these comments simply proves the point I was making. Voter suppression supports the Conservative agenda and candidates. That's the point I was making.
eraptorFeb 10, 2012
@Linux,
If both political parties were the "same", they would be championing the same legislative and public policy stupidity. Based upon their record of "achievement", there's only ONE group guilty of stupidity and incompetence...CONSERVATIVES.
Yes, we hear plenty of political whining and denial these days. Virtually ALL of it originates from Conservative/Libertarian circles.Comment is buried, click here to see the rest.
njdoo7Feb 10, 2012
In which ways are they the same?
- Federal reserve
- Empire
- War
- Growing debt
- Inflation tax to fund deficits
- Bailing out "too big to fail"
What ways are they different that comes close to being as significant as these issues?
truthroxFeb 10, 2012
@njdoo7,
Dig deeper into the very issues you're citing and you'll discover the truth eraptor pointed out above. You're only scratching the surface of culpability when the true culprits are found much deeper than that.
Take those bailouts, for instance. "Too Big to Fail" institutions and bailouts would have never been necessary if financial services industry regulations had been left alone in the late-90's. Tragically, Republicans took advantage of their newly gained political power in the mid-90's and sabotaged economic safety mechanisms at the behest of the financial services industry. Research the issue if you don't believe me. Congressional Committee findings following the financial collapse are a matter of public record (see Levin-Coburn Report).Comment is buried, click here to see the rest.
njdoo7Feb 10, 2012
@truthrox
I'd appreciate if you don't waste space replying to me. I don't care to read partisan drivel or red herrings.
My comment stands, and is clearly obvious to everyone but you and other sheep.
truthroxFeb 10, 2012
@njdoo7,
The DP "bury brigade" and your sock puppet votes do NOT give you the credibility you assume.
Furthermore, disputing your ideological insanity does NOT make me a partisan, it makes me SANE.
Since you're too weak and ideologically flawed to prove those who disagree with you wrong, you resort to character assassination and fake Digg votes. This PROVES you are wrong. Otherwise, you would be able to back up your ideological BS with objective facts and truth instead of ideological fantasy.
Digg "down votes" won't erase the truth behind my comments. You're only kidding yourselves if you think your censorship is "noble" and "patriotic".Comment is buried, click here to see the rest.
njdoo7Feb 10, 2012
It's on me to prove to you that both wings of the American political party support the bulleted facts?
You have no business commenting in a political thread if these facts aren't apparent to you. I am not going to prove self-evident facts that any individual should know.
You're being dugg down because this is:
"clearly obvious to everyone but you and other sheep."
linuxpersonFeb 11, 2012
"Based upon their record of "achievement", there's only ONE group guilty of stupidity and incompetence...CONSERVATIVES."
Thanks for showcasing your partisan hackery in its fullest form. And truthrox, you are the sock puppet kid, you've been on digg three months yet you know all about the DP? Weird.
truthroxFeb 12, 2012
@njdoo7,
Your inability to substantiate your "bullet points" proves they're invalid. As I indicated earlier, digging beyond your bullet points always leads one to the same culprits (i.e., Conservatives). How do I know this? I've done the homework you refuse to and came by my views based upon solid evidence, not blind faith in a particular ideological view.
@Linux...,
You're insight into my Digg involvement makes me laugh. Stick to your day job because your sleuthing skills leave a lot to be desired. I've been reading Digg far longer than I've been a member. I decided to become involved after reading the multitude of misleading and ignorant statements from partisan hacks, just like you.
As for my ideological views, I'm a politically independent American who is devoted to the best interests of this country. If you dare to champion ideological nonsense of parrot "Koch whore" nonsense, be prepared, because I will confront your partisan insanity and seditious agenda.
Both political parties are not the same, even if they both have their sahre of flaws. Based on the past 30 years, Conservatives are clearly the greater of the two evils. This view isn't based on ideology, but their respective records. If this view offends you, then you ar clueless and sorely in need of a legislative and economic history lesson.
eraptorFeb 12, 2012
@Linux,
If both political parties were the "same", they would be championing the same legislative and public policy stupidity. Based upon their record of "achievement", there's only ONE group guilty of stupidity and incompetence...CONSERVATIVES.
Yes, we hear plenty of political whining and denial these days. Virtually ALL of it originates from Conservative/Libertarian circles.
pc25Feb 10, 2012
Stick a fork in this issue because it's DONE...along with Republican hopes of distracting the American people from their disastrous economic and job creation records.
you've got it backwards ace, this is exactly why Obama pushed the contraception issue.....to distract the country. How's that stimulus working out for ya.
floepieFeb 10, 2012
You sound like a 5th grader. "My team's better than yours!" Rah, rah. It's simply another issue he felt that could be corrected in a long line of addressable problems. You could make your statement following just about anything outside the bounds of monetary or fiscal matters.Comment is buried, click here to see the rest.
pc25Feb 10, 2012
what don't you understand Obama trying to deflect attention away from his piss poor record on everything these past 3 years. Expect more from this "Sham-wow snake oil salesman" as we approach November
cactusjack901Feb 10, 2012
HEY!!! I take serious offense to that. The Shamwow is actually pretty damn awesome.
h8f8kesFeb 10, 2012
Hey now, the Sham wow guy was only convicted of a felony. Hardly as bad as the guy the stomping on the bill of rights we have in office right now.
citizenmeFeb 10, 2012
Actually pretty well. They're building a solar farm right next to my work that is creating hundreds of jobs, and will provide free power for 3 years for 20,000 homes. Pretty effing well.
truthroxFeb 10, 2012
Obama didn't push the contraception issue. The Secretary of Health and Human Services, which oversees U.S. healthcare standards, simply enforced the law.
As for that stimulus effort, Obama's effort beats everything offered by Conservatives since 2008 (i.e., absolutely nothing).
Congressional Conservatives have proven themselves to be nothing but an anchor around this nation's neck. It's time to cut every one of 'em loose so the nation can repair the economic damage they've inflicted on the nation.
ncrdFeb 10, 2012
Obama pushed the contraception issue to protect women. But f**k you for not understanding that. Dips**t.
xwhyFeb 10, 2012
Nearly buried you. Helpful hint: put quotation marks or stars or arrows around quoted stuff. At first glance, I thought it was your comment, not what you were responding to. (and you got a digg.)Comment is buried, click here to see the rest.
eraptorFeb 12, 2012
Obama hasn't pushed the contraception issue. Catholic bishops have and when the American people wake to the fact that the Vatican and U.S. Conservatives are attempting to force a narrow ideological view on this country...all Hell will break loose.
The U.S. pursued "separation of church and state" as a direct result of Catholic over reach in Europe. If the Vatican thinks we've forgotten about their political history of using religion to control government and oppress people...THINK AGAIN. This American along with the MAJORITY of the country (including many American Catholics) won't tolerate it.
The Vatican has NOT monopolized religious freedom.
njdoo7Feb 10, 2012
When are they going to cave to my religion, in which taxes are a sin?
Oh, I forgot equality only exists if you have the numbers.
I think it's time for a secular America. Nobody should get religious accommodations for laws, when not everyone does.
dilberterFeb 10, 2012
God damn right. The hell with religion and lobbyists too, when it comes to government.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MUmxzJI86VQ
GoldJacketFeb 12, 2012
Separation of church and state? Anyone?
josh53188Feb 11, 2012
The whole idea that we would force an organization that is protected from Government intervention to have to go against its own beliefs is just appalling. Religious organizations should have been exempt from this law. We're now telling Churches what to do with their money and telling them they have to either provide for their employees coverage on birth control or instruct them on how to get it is just sad.
I want to know what moron put this in the bill and how the House or President could have signed off on this. This is a no-brainer and does not need to go to the Supreme Court to know if this should be legal or not. Unconstitutional at the highest degree. If anything will kill his re-election, this is the biggest thing that I could see hurting him.
That said, religion is still stupid. =PComment is buried, click here to see the rest.
temlakosFeb 10, 2012
Ah, SHERRRRRE! If you believe that, I have a partnership stake in a bridge spanning the Potomac River that I would like to offer for sale.
madtechnologistFeb 10, 2012
Everything comes with a price. Everytime we beg our leaders to "give" us more, more, more it comes with a price. Invariably that price is freedom and liberty. This is just one small microcosm of what's in this legislature. We've only began to scratch to the surface at what freedoms and liberties we are now without all because we were sold on the idea that we can't take care of ourselves. Truly a sad day for America.
pc25Feb 10, 2012
we have to pass it to find out what is in it, Pelosi. What else is in there?
FPSmotoFeb 11, 2012
"A government big enough to give you everything you want, is big enough to take away everything you have.”
- Thomas Jefferson
partrowFeb 10, 2012
Bummer just couldn't stand to let those votes go to waste.
He will do ANYTHING for a vote.
stevanoskiFeb 10, 2012
Yes!
bigbert81Feb 10, 2012
To which votes are you referring?
It seems to me like he's made a pretty good compromise:
http://digg.com/newsbar/topnews/source_obama_to_change_birth_control_ruleComment is buried, click here to see the rest.
partrowFeb 11, 2012
Obama will do anything for votes in the upcoming election. ANYTHING.
When he saw that this decision had alienated a large number of people (Catholics), he decided that would not be good for his election and backed off. It shows how badly he thinks he needs votes. now.
This is typical behavior from him. Try it, and if it doesn't fly, cave in.
daimposterFeb 11, 2012
Are you thinking of Romney who was for a government mandate and now isn't? The man who said he "that I'm someone who is moderate, and that my views are progressive." And today he is a conservative and pretends to have been one all along?
Or Gingrich who calls himself a small government despite all his connections to Fannie Mae, supporting global warming causes, etc.
Or John 'The Maverick' McCain who was very moderate and one of the few Republicans I respected up until 2008 and now is borderline far right and has now said he never called himself a Maverick (even though his bus had 'Maverick' in large letters).Comment is buried, click here to see the rest.
partrowFeb 11, 2012
No, I believe I stated it was Obama. Can you not read?
Had too much koolaid today?
bigbert81Feb 11, 2012
Ugh...this is nothing more than speculation on your part which you've stated as fact.
Changing a policy that has become the subject of major controversy to appease both sides does not translate to being desperate for votes.Comment is buried, click here to see the rest.
pc25Feb 10, 2012
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lp8ZESkgIcg&feature=player_embedded
The Founding Fathers Made It Difficult For Me To Be A Dictator.
daimposterFeb 11, 2012
That is complete BULL s**t and you know it.
First, the question was about how his supporters back in 2008 are not sure today because he hasn't brought about all the change he talked about and isn't the transformational political figure they hoped he would be.
His exact words:
" WHAT HAS FRUSTRATED PEOPLE is that I have not been able to force congress to implement every aspect of what I said in 2008. Well, you know (and he said this in a somewhat sarcastic and higher pitch tone to those frustrated) it turns out our founders designed a system that makes it more difficult to bring about change than I would like sometimes"
Are you pulling another one of those "My Muslim Faith" Obama quotes again? Seriously?
Everybody wants change to happen ASAP. You think black people wanted slavery to be abolished slowly? You think women their right to vote to drag on? You think blacks, minorities and women wanted the Civil Rights to take it's time? You think Gays want to have slowly win their equal rights? You think the lower and middle class want to slowly reverse the income inequality that has grown over the past few decades? You think the mother who was deported while her 2 kids are still in the US wants immigration reform to happen slowly?
Grow up and get a life.
pc25Feb 11, 2012
hey hotshot, it's his own words and you know it.
designed a system that makes it more difficult to bring about change than I would like sometimes"
The founding fathers knew that somewhere along the line a maniacal, egotistical despot such as Obama would emerge and they put checks and balances in the system.
What don't you understand about the separation of powers clause and Obama constant end runs around Congress. His last recess appointments being an example.
http://www.nationalreview.com/articles/287424/obama-skirts-democratic-process-andrew-c-mccarthy
In sum, Obama dissolved the separation of powers, the framers’ ingenious bulwark against any government branch’s seizure of supreme power — and thus the Constitution’s bulwark against tyranny. The president claims the power to appoint federal officers without the Senate’s constitutionally mandated advice and consent. He does so by claiming unilateral powers to dictate when the Senate is in session, a power the Constitution assigns to Congress, and to decree that an ongoing session is actually a recess. This sheer ukase, he says, triggers the part of the Constitution we’re keeping because he likes it — viz., the executive power to fill vacancies without any vetting by the people’s representatives.
Mind you, a president is the only government official constitutionally required to swear that he will “preserve, protect and defend” that Constitution. We are talking here not just about Obama’s characteristically breathtaking arrogance. These are profound violations of his oath and of our fundamental law. But rest assured he will get away with them. For that, Republicans can thank themselves and their surrender to statism.
The president’s second front is, as ever, Big Labor. He also used his supposed recess power to appoint three members to the National Labor Relations Board. This will ensure that the NLRB will not lack for the necessary quorum to do the bidding of union bosses who, in turn, keep the campaign cash and direct-action services churning for the Democratic party. Obama was even more audacious on the NLRB appointees than on Cordray: He submitted two of the three names to the Senate on December 15, right on the eve of the recess that wasn’t a recess. There is not even a fig leaf of GOP obstructionism to complain about — the Senate was given no realistic opportunity to do background checks or hold committee hearings, much less hold an informed confirmation vote.
Again, however, Republicans have not even attempted to sound the alarm for folding up the NLRB, even after its unelected bureaucrats outrageously presumed to begin telling private businesses, like Boeing, where they would and would not be permitted to operate. The GOP is not making the overarching case for getting Americans out from under the statist thumb; they are saying they would apply the same thumb more benignly — by slow-walking enough confirmations, they figure the 2012 election will mean vacancies filled by Republican-preferred bureaucrats.
The use of the EPA to legislate de facto, cap and trade, the use of the NLRB to legislate de facto card check. His violations of the war powers act in Libya, Yemen, and Africa. You need to take you head out of the sand and realize what the hell is happening to your country before it is too late.Comment is buried, click here to see the rest.
daimposterFeb 11, 2012
Oh yes, the recess appointments. Are you referring to the fact that Obama has made 29 of them in 3 years? An average of under 10/yr. And that....
Bush: 171 over 8yrs (22/yr)
Clinton: 139 over 8 yrs (17/yr)
HW Bush: 77 over 4yrs (19/yr)
Reagan: 243 over 8 yrs (30/yr)
http://motherjones.com/mojo/2012/01/chart-day-presidential-recess-appointments
Interesting...the Dem's use it FAR less.
Or that 2 years after congress created a bureau he hired someone to run it. Or the fact that the proforma session was only 30 SECONDS? Or the fact that the republican party doesn't want to go on record that they oppose this agency? Or the fact that the Department of Justice ruled with Obama? Or that "history shows similar appointments were made during the presidencies of both Democrat Harry Truman and Republican Theodore Roosevelt." (per Reuters).
Check out the Daily Show about the absurdity of proforma sessions.
http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/01/05/us-financial-regulation-cordray-legal-idUSTRE80328G20120105
http://www.justice.gov/olc/memoranda-opinions.html
http://www.indecisionforever.com/blog/2012/01/06/the-daily-show-on-barack-obamas-rogue-recess-appointment-of-richard-cordray
From DOJ:
The convening of periodic pro forma sessions in which no business is to be conducted does not have the legal effect of interrupting an intrasession recess otherwise long enough to qualify as a "Recess of the Senate" under the Recess Appointments Clause. In this context, the President therefore has discretion to conclude that the Senate is unavailable to perform its advise-and-consent function and to exercise his power to make recess appointments.Comment is buried, click here to see the rest.
pc25Feb 11, 2012
you mean the pro forma sessions that passed bills that Obama signed.....
I had no idea Jon Stewart was a constitutional cholar.
http://blog.heritage.org/2012/01/12/whitewash-on-illegal-appointments-wont-work/
Animating that central problem is the artificial premise of the question presented, which only considers the period from Jan. 3 through Jan. 23, and argues over and over again that the Senate could not conduct business during that period. (Note from DOJ to Sen. Harry Reid: don’t provide consent to conduct any business during that period.) But the pro-forma sessions began when most senators left town on Dec. 17. Why not mention the even longer period of time, since that might ordinarily help the President’s argument? The answer is on page 21, where the opinion has to acknowledges that twice during such “pro-forma” sessions, the Congress actually passed bills that became law (on Aug. 5, 2011 and Dec. 23, 2011). Since the President signed these bills into law, it really had no choice but to admit that those pro forma sessions mattered.
The not-too-deft argument in the OLC memo is that the President is free to take the Senate at its word that it would not conduct business during any period it sees fit except that the basis for that assumption also applied from Dec. 17 to Jan. 3. With unanimous consent, such business clearly can and was conducted during the period of time that OLC ignores. Moreover, those facts defeat the repeated finding in the opinion that the Senate is not available to receive messages from the President and act on them. The action on Dec. 23 proves beyond any doubt that they can receive such messages, loudly and clearly, and can act when they want to do so. Their desire not to act cannot be converted so easily into an inability to do so.
Even more brazenly, the opinion states on page 21 that: “even absent a Senate pronouncement that it will not conduct business, there may be circumstances in which the President could properly conclude that the body is not available to provide advice and consent for a sufficient period to support the use of his recess appointment power.” There is no limit on this open-ended assertion of authority of the President to determine when the Senate could properly act on his nominees.
The opinion also does not fairly address the House’s refusal to provide the Senate permission to adjourn under Art. I, sec. 5, cl. 4 of the Constitution for more than three days or the effect of the clause of the Constitution that each House can determine its own rules, Art. I, sec. 5, cl. 2. The opinion’s citation of authority for the latter distinction involves the fundamental rights of individuals, and is clearly not on point.
pc25Feb 11, 2012
the s is acting up again. scholar
irvman21Feb 10, 2012
Obamacare will continue to cave in, piece by piece by piece as the American public gets more fed up with the corrupt waiver system, incredible intrusion into the rights of American's and their businesses, and piles debt created by an ever increasing bureaucracy.
pc25Feb 10, 2012
you bring up another point TOTALLY overlooked in the debate.....WAIVERS.
user500Feb 10, 2012
Once again Nobama caves. Has he ever stood his ground on ANY issue?
davidnivenFeb 10, 2012
Porkulus?
TGRHvWGAFFeb 10, 2012
The ARRA got heavily watered down by the GOP. Just think of how many more people would be back to work and contributing to GDP had that not been the case.Comment is buried, click here to see the rest.
linuxpersonFeb 10, 2012
Did you breach the maximum integer range to append onto new usernames?
stevanoskiFeb 11, 2012
LOL
jhw539Feb 10, 2012
"Has he ever stood his ground on ANY issue?"
You could ask Osama Bin Laden. Or Somali pirates. Or ask House Republicans how well their Christmas fight to raise payroll taxes paid off.
pc25Feb 10, 2012
That particular Osama Bin Laden operation had been active way before he took office. As Panetta said, if it weren't for enhanced interrogation they would NEVER have found out the identity of the courrier. The order to take out the Somali pirates came from the on scene commander NOT OBAMA.
Payroll tax cuts, the 3 month extension is up in 6 weeks, and then it will be the theater of the absurd again.
vitriolandangstFeb 10, 2012
LOL.
I'd agree if you were talking about the "Bay of Pigs" which was before JFK warmed the seat in the Oval Office. But LAST year is not just coming into the job.
Bush had been "fixin' to" get OBL for 7 years.
I agree that Presidents don't run these missions all by themselves, but they do direct policy. The attack on OBL and on Libya were policy choices. Obama could have invaded both countries like Bush did and spent a few Trillion Dollars as well -- but he didn't.
>> By the way, I totally disagree with the assassination of OBL -- he should have been captured and put on trial. I think Obama is as big of a fascist as George Bush was with the way he treats due process.Comment is buried, click here to see the rest.
pc25Feb 10, 2012
the Bin Laden operation had been in effect for years. The courier was identified during Bush's presidency. BTW Obama was supposedly dragged kicking and screaming into taking him out. The on scene commander order the Seals to fire.
jhw539Feb 10, 2012
"BTW Obama was supposedly dragged kicking and screaming into taking him out."
BTW I'm currently chuckling imaging you as a teenage girl earnestly passing along Very Important Gossip with the delusion that anyone believes a word you say.
stevanoskiFeb 10, 2012
Chuckling or day dreaming?
shark72Feb 10, 2012
" BTW Obama was supposedly dragged kicking and screaming into taking him out."
On the contrary; he announced his intent to go into Pakistan to get OBL, three years before it happened:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Om-0uFFqzdA
Note McCain's chuckling condescendingly and stating that it's a bad idea.
To McCain's credit, he came around, and commended Obama and the military on the action:
http://matzav.com/mccain-overjoyed-commends-obama-on-bin-laden-killing
The "kicking and screaming" meme was started by one right-wing blog and circulated; one of those "repeat it enough times and it becomes fact" situations. Here's an example:
http://pjmedia.com/tatler/2011/05/03/leon-panetta-not-obama-issued-order-to-kill-bin-laden/
However, Panetta's own explanation of the events destroys this.
"Overriding" the president in a situation like this -- no matter which president it is -- would be a very, very serious matter; this is one of those decisions that must be made by the president. Given that Obama had made it known three years previously that this is what he wanted to do, the "mutiny" theory simply doesn't hold water.
vitriolandangstFeb 10, 2012
Oh, well that means I feel a bit better about Obama -- seems that some fascist prick like yourself decided to ignore his commander in Chief and the rule of law and just execute someone.
"Dragged kicking and screaming" - - I'm not sure how anyone would know that, but I'm sure it sounds good when you tell each other what the truth is.
PC25, DavidNiven, and a bunch of other bible thumpers are enjoying a big showing on this topic today.
It's important that fools travel in herds so they can bury anyone who speaks truth to power or talks about the molesters in the Christian mafia.
pc25Feb 11, 2012
hey jackass, when the Somali pirates were taken out all the Propeller (at that time) liberal idiots were giving credit for the actions of that so called "facist prick" to Obama. As always the libs want to have it both ways.
"It's important that fools travel in herds so they can bury anyone who speaks truth to power or talks about the"
I wouldn't talk about traveling in herds with the likes of you, Novey, Madam Mao and the rest of the Flying Monkey, Feces Slinging Twitter Bury Brigade polluting Digg.Comment is buried, click here to see the rest.
daimposterFeb 11, 2012
PC25, WTF is wrong with you?
You are saying Obama had to be dragged kicking and screaming into taking Bin Laden out? Seriously???
Obama...the President that shifted (and made it a priority as far back as 2008) focus from Iraq to Afghanistan AND went on the record that he would go into Pakistan if they had BIn Laden in site and the Pakistan govt was not able or willing to help. For f**ks sake, McCain actually said Obama shouldn't be publicly talking about invading Pakistan so if the GOP presidential nominee says that, it means that Obama really had to put himself out there.
Obama...the President who doubled drone attacks in Pakistan in 2009, then tripled it in 2010 (compared to 2008).
Obama...the president that has killed more top al-qaeda and Taliban leaders than Bush.
You are completely full of s**t and say anything to make Obama the bad guy or weak...even when evidence is presented to you. Where do you get the news? I'm sure it's Faux News.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Om-0uFFqzdA
pc25Feb 11, 2012
were you hiding under a rock the first week in May when the story broke
http://pjmedia.com/tatler/2011/05/03/leon-panetta-not-obama-issued-order-to-kill-bin-laden/
http://socyberty.com/issues/white-house-insider-obama-hesitated-panetta-issued-order-to-kill-osama-bin-laden/
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bk7scgN-37E
Obama: "Victory" is not our "Goal" in Afghanstan.
http://sweetness-light.com/archive/obama-victory-not-goal-in-afghanistanComment is buried, click here to see the rest.
jhw539Feb 10, 2012
Derp derp derp. Give it up already. Obama made getting Bin Laden a priority and his administration, YEARS after taking office, saw it happen.
The documented record of the Republican administration's seven years of failure on Bin Laden is VERY clear.
http://mediamatters.org/research/201105050029
Everyone remembers this and Republicans only make themselves look like liars or idiots blinded by partisan hatred with their attempts to deny reality.
pc25Feb 10, 2012
derp derp derptyderp derp......
gaia242Feb 10, 2012
Out of curiousity, do you know where the "derp derp derp" comes from?
pc25Feb 11, 2012
yeah, it's the slogan on the bottom of Novenators family crest.
h8f8kesFeb 10, 2012
Media matters says so. It must be totally unbaised truth then.
If anything, sources like media matters, kos or politicsusa generally lead me to believe the opposite of what we are being told to be true.
jhw539Feb 10, 2012
Media matters provided links to the actual citations of what Bush said. You provide... huh, funny that, absolutely no citations to any factual reference.
How about a cite from FoxNews?
"in March 2002, Bush indeed said, "I truly am not that concerned about him. I know he is on the run." He described the terrorist leader as "marginalized," and said, "I just don't spend that much time on him.""
Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,135384,00.html#ixzz1m0QISPaN
It's my theory that the constant strain of denying reality is what makes Republicans so cranky they even go off on a benignly patriotic Clint Eastwood car commercial.
h8f8kesFeb 10, 2012
@jhw: First you give one biased source then use another source like fox that the first source has worked so hard to discredit? Does that mean that fox is factual?
Also, what does the President dismissing a potential threat publicly have to do with policy? Misinterpreting public bravado is just as asinine as thinking Clint was endorsing Chrysler or Obama. Did fox get that right too?
It's my theory that the constant strain of denying reality is what makes progressives so frustrated - case in point this whole deal of that pesky Constitution getting in the way of what they 'want' in terms of forcing free birth control on those misguided bible thumpers.
jhw539Feb 11, 2012
@h8f8kes That's pretty sad. You still can't come up with any citation at all can you? Darn reality and its liberal bias.
h8f8kesFeb 11, 2012
@jhw: First, I don't care what media matters & company has to say for the simple fact that they are and forever will be a propaganda sites bought and paid for by crony capitalists, 1%'ers like Soros. They are the precursor to the Super Pac.
As far as Osama getting Obama I suspect that this was nothing more than a continuation of bush policies like everything else he has done in office so far.
Since you insist on a citation to refute your assertion that I care, I have attached one that covers my sheer apathy for anything these bought and paid for Joe Goebbels sites you refer to:
http://vastderp.tumblr.com/page/2
Yes, that was a Godwin reference. Enjoy!Comment is buried, click here to see the rest.
pc25Feb 11, 2012
you mean the Clint Eastwood commercial produced by Obama supporters and paid for by the Chrysler that was bailed out by Obama.
jhw539Feb 11, 2012
"First, I don't care what media matters & company "
Awww, poor little h8f8kes is DESPERATELY trying to ignore the fact that FoxNews 100% backed up that evil 'ol Media Matters citation.
Amazing how pissed off people get when they want the sky to be orange but every time they look outside it's still blue.
h8f8kesFeb 11, 2012
@jhw: What color is the sky in your world anyways?
Nobody is ignoring that a really sh!tty former president made a statement on a partisan news channel, which was then parroted by a partisan propoganda site because it furthered their agenda. Again, I don't care about that.
My original point was, is and always will be that media matters is a hack website bought and paid for by rich bast@rds that want to influence the weak minded.
In your case, it is working.
greengrocerFeb 10, 2012
Oh, so you only credit the Commander in Chief when you voted for him. I see now.
pc25Feb 11, 2012
http://today.msnbc.msn.com/id/42880435/ns/today-today_news/t/cia-chief-waterboarding-aided-bin-laden-raid/#.TzXLwF0YAoY
CIA chief: Waterboarding aided bin Laden raid
Bin Laden would be alive today with Obama pleading with the courier to please tell us where he's at.
eraptorFeb 12, 2012
@pc25,
John McCain (R-AZ) confirmed this Faux News "talking point" was pure BS by asking Leon Panetta DIRECTLY.
Are you calling that highly decorated Republican with a history of enduring torture a liar?
stevanoskiFeb 10, 2012
He's a stone cold killer for sure.
FenderStratocasterFeb 10, 2012
"Has he (Obama) ever stood his ground on ANY issue?"
He's managed to apologize for the US quite often. He's alienated Israel. He's accommodated Islam quite nicely. He's surrendered in Iraq and soon Afghanistan. He's allowing Iran to have a nuke. He's secured taxpayer grants for Solyndra and a handful of other green companies. He's stopped the oil pipeline from Canada. He's opened the border between Mexico and the US. And he's supplied guns to Mexican cartels. He's stood a lot of ground. He's bravely refused to release college transcripts and other documents.
bigbert81Feb 10, 2012
If these aren't the ramblings of a dedicated right-wingnut who doesn't bother to check facts beyond what people like Hannity and Limbaugh give, then I don't know what are.
ganjadude4391Feb 10, 2012
if you are gonna call someone out on their facts, its usually good to provide your counter evidence... oh yeah, you dont have any...because he was correct
bigbert81Feb 10, 2012
Right, and isn't the same true for someone who comes along in another's defense shouting 'true' as well? Your side made the claims, so YOUR side should prove them. You don't just get to make stuff up and say 'disprove me'.
Hmmm...now where to provide facts that Obama has 'apologized for the US quite often', or 'surrendered in Iraq and soon Afghanistan'?...Comment is buried, click here to see the rest.
vitriolandangstFeb 10, 2012
When they repeat bulls**t back and forth -- that counts as facts to them. WE on the other hand, have to come up with counter evidence.
... of course, when the total scenario is made up between neocons talking to neocons, all you get are links to Freeper sites telling each other the proven facts.
>> It's best for the bootlickers to stick to circular logic. If it's facts outside the real world, they can be geniuses of hot air like Newt Gingrich.
pc25Feb 11, 2012
everyone of those is a fact.
bigbert81Feb 11, 2012
Is this what passes on the right now as facts? You just keep repeating it over and over again until you believe it? I challenged your post, and instead of providing ACTUAL facts and credible sources, you simply come back to write 'everyone of those is a fact'.
You don't just get to make stuff up and proclaim it fact without any basis. It doesn't work that way.
This is why I've moved from right to left-leaning; I noticed the left tends to use actual FACTS (things that are true) vs. speculation, lies, and half-truths.
shark72Feb 10, 2012
"He's alienated Israel."
Netanyahu disagrees with you. He states that Obama is as much of a friend as Israel as Bush was:
http://www.theblaze.com/stories/netanyahu-obamas-just-as-big-a-friend-to-israel-as-george-w-bush/
The "Obama hates Israel" meme is largely an invention of the right-wing media.
"He's accommodated Islam quite nicely."
More so than George "religion of peace" Bush? Is your issue with Islam, or radical Islam?
"He's surrendered in Iraq and soon Afghanistan."
By following the timetable set by the previous administration.
"He's opened the border between Mexico and the US."
Deportations have risen dramatically over the previous administration.
"And he's supplied guns to Mexican cartels."
The gun running programs began during the previous administration.
"He's bravely refused to release college transcripts and other documents."
Oh, do go on about the "other documents" you think he should release. At any rate, Nixon, Ford, Carter, Reagan, George HW Bush, Clinton, and George W Bush didn't release their full college transcripts, either.
This has suddenly become an issue because the right-wing blogs have proposed a theory that the fellow who graduated Magna Cum Laude from Harvard has a school record that's inadequate in some fashion. This has yet to be rationally explained.
"He's secured taxpayer grants for Solyndra and a handful of other green companies."
You know that the Solyndra loan process was started by the Bush administration in 2007, right? One of the earliest and largest investors in Solyndra, Madrone Capital Partners, is funded by the Waltons (of Wal-Mart fame), who donate a ton of money to Republican candidates. It's only when Solyndra failed that history was rewritten by the right-wing blogs and it became a creation of the Obama administration.
bigbert81Feb 11, 2012
Dugg...for taking the time I wouldn't to attempt to explain (using facts) what was wrong with Fenders post to people who refuse to listen.
You just can't break through that bubble...
vitriolandangstFeb 10, 2012
Authoritarians always care about the Apologies. Bush might have been the biggest sniveling moron, but because he strutted his stuff, made threats, and giggled about bombings -- they loved the man.
On what planet, does Bush have any redeeming qualities? Cheney, Rumsfeld, Rove, and any damn NeoCon I've ever seen makes my skin crawl. I don't see any way to find common ground - -and that is sad. Hopefully, these are just extreme examples that are making other Conservatives look bad.
If PC25 and Niven are what is going on in the minds of the average Conservatives -- that's troubling.
This whole gaggle on here today defending religious groups pushing their Sharia laws are a good sampling of the dregs here on Digg.
The crap that is squirming around in these people's brains -- their general animosity to people of compassion, their worship of abusive people, their constant deceitfulness on every issue in order to "win" at all costs.
There is nothing threatening this nation that doesn't find a useful foothold in the minds of these strange, twisted people.
bigbert81Feb 10, 2012
You're assuming too much. He actually made a pretty good compromise:
http://digg.com/newsbar/topnews/source_obama_to_change_birth_control_rule
pc25Feb 11, 2012
It's another Obamacare waiver while they work out the details. And if he is elected in 2012 he may not want to compromise.
bigbert81Feb 11, 2012
He made a compromise to appease to both sides. What you're stating is simple conjecture.
FPSmotoFeb 11, 2012
He returned that over $200k donation from a Mexican fugitive, but that's only after the facts were released.
odkinFeb 10, 2012
It's bulls**t if the affected Churches agree to this.
There is either freedom, or there is not. Being granted a repreive by government is not freedom. Telling the government "f**k off, you don't have the power to touch me" is freedom.
But the same church that fell for endorsing the Obamacare scam to begin with will likely fall for this (temporary) high-handed buy-off until election time has passed.
pc25Feb 11, 2012
He conned the Bishops.
chassupFeb 10, 2012
There is no true compromising with someone who thinks some murders are OK. Don't look for a real compromise-- he'll swing, but he'll miss. He stepped in it big this time. He can't unkick a hornets' nest.
eraptorFeb 10, 2012
Obama can't unkick a hornet's nest? The only group responsible for kicking that hornet's nest were Republicans/Conservatives intent on distracting the country from their disastrous economic and job creation record. Since you have nothing credible to brag about, you're desperate to change the subject. That's why every one of you jumped on this irrelevant issue with everything you've got.
It didn't work because President Obama just kicked Conservative "legs" out from under their unfounded accusations.Comment is buried, click here to see the rest.
chassupFeb 10, 2012
"...intent on distracting the country from their disastrous economic and job creation record"
Classic projection.
eraptorFeb 10, 2012
If Democrat's wanted to distract the country from their economic record, they wouldn't keep bringing everyone's attention TO it by making GENUINE economic reform efforts or PROPOSING job creation ideas.
They always wouldn't have hyperventilated over an innocuous contraception policy OR falsely claimed it was a "threat to religious freedom" as CONSERVATIVES just did.
This is NOT an example of projection, "genius".Comment is buried, click here to see the rest.
eraptorFeb 12, 2012
If Democrat's wanted to distract the country from their economic record, they wouldn't keep bringing everyone's attention TO it by making GENUINE economic reform efforts or PROPOSING job creation ideas.
They always wouldn't have hyperventilated over an innocuous contraception policy OR falsely claimed it was a "threat to religious freedom" as CONSERVATIVES just did.
This is NOT an example of projection, "genius".
truthroxFeb 10, 2012
I small the stench of the Digg Patriot bury brigade in here.
linuxpersonFeb 11, 2012
Explain how you know about a digg scandal that happened over a year ago when you've only been on digg for three months.
I smell yet another case of projection.Comment is buried, click here to see the rest.
dividebyoFeb 11, 2012
ummm, because he can read... you do understand that just because something happened in the past, before you were here, doesn't mean you can't know about it.
Here, let me show you; I was born in 1970, but I know about all sorts of things that happened before then, like; the first moon landing, JFK being shot, World War II, and on and on into the distant past... heck, I even know about these animals that lived millions of years ago, they are call dinosaurs.
Now, either I'm magical, a witch, or some such, or I just have an education, and know how to read about past events.
I'll let you try to figure out which one it is Linux...
Even scarier, you had people Digg you up for that asinine comment
truthroxFeb 12, 2012
@linuxperson,
First, As dividebyo pointed out I can read, that's how I became aware of the a-holes posing as Digg Patriots and their disgrace.
Second, the DP a-holes never went away, they simply created other sock puppets to use and waited for the attention to die down on Digg before engaging in their usual dirty tricks. Your excessive denial and defensiveness indicates you're probably one of them.
absoul2Feb 11, 2012
It must be a very sad and lonely life as a Digg Patriot. Really, what kind of distorted reality do you have to believe in to actively game a system in order to suppress or promote information based on political views?
Digg Patriots:
http://blogs.alternet.org/oleoleolson/2010/08/05/massive-censorship-of-digg-uncovered/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digg_Patriots
http://pubrecord.org/special-to-the-public-record/8121/rigging-of-digg-covert-mob-conservatives/
http://freakoutnation.com/2010/08/05/the-digg-patriots-bury-list/
pc25Feb 12, 2012
ah break out another sock
absoul2Feb 12, 2012
Ah! The bent man claiming everyone else is crooked. I give you credit though, from your perspective everyone else probably appears that way. Reality has a funny way of catching up to people who continue to believe their own lies. Good luck!
williepepperFeb 11, 2012
Whoa! So now he's saying that they don't have to pay for birth control but their insurance companies do?
SSDD in my book.
I mean, why force anyone to cover things they don't believe in?
It's separation of church and state, in direct violation of the constitution.
And besides, anyone is free to get any birth control they want, just go and pay for it yourself.
If you can't afford it, Planned Parenthood will subsidize you so you don't have to pay it all, that's well known.
So this isn't about access to contraception, but that's what the mainstream media wants you to believe.
It's also a reelection tactic by Obama to polarize everyone and come out as the savior.
Well I'll tell you wnat, gas prices are pretty high, what's fearless doing about that?
How about unemployment? Underemployment???
I can't want to vote him out.
BTW, if abortions were leagal back when Steve Jobs was conceived he would have been aborted, says so in Isacson's book.
Then what would those libs do without theyr macs? They wouldn't have been envented, they'd all be Windows users.
pc25Feb 11, 2012
they can get contraceptives at planned parenthood
skibearFeb 11, 2012
HUGE FlipFlop! - Obama doesn't stick to his liberal agenda/values when he has to worry about the poles. We'll add this bad decision to the oil pipeline debacle putting the unions out of work and the "gonna sign a grand proclamation to close Gitmo... now three years later how exactly are we gonna do that?". When you've never had ANY leadership experience except "community organizer", you get crappy bassakward unintelligible executive decision making. What a joke for a president.
mitchellkFeb 11, 2012
Well, there's an "accomodation", raise everyone's insurance rates to make free contraception available, whether they have a religious objection or not.
raggsat98Feb 10, 2012
He is only backtracking for politcal reasons
The harm has been done... the people now see the lengths that Obama will go when given an oppurtunity.
pc25Feb 10, 2012
The reality of the situation has not been lost on organization throughout the country. Obama is a danger to the freedoms guaranteed in the constitution and he ha been exposed a such.
johnnysoftwareFeb 10, 2012
Your "s" key is dying.
pc25Feb 10, 2012
Yeah I know, damn apple store they supposedly "fixed" it last week.
pc25Feb 10, 2012
has
adaguyFeb 10, 2012
and "as"
(I just had to do that)
pc25Feb 10, 2012
glad I could make your day.
adaguyFeb 10, 2012
Me TOO!
linuxpersonFeb 10, 2012
Every President in contemporary history has been a danger to the freedoms guaranteed in the constitution.
blacklabelbmxFeb 11, 2012
does anyone really think these politicians will save America? all of a sudden they will collectively pull their heads out of their asses and start making changes this country truly needs? probably a higher chance they will run this bitch straight into the ground. we vote in republicans and democrats and get the compromised halfassed policies we would expect over and over again in every single election. the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result.
davidnivenFeb 10, 2012
Obama blinked.
This is good for several reasons, one of which is that the Federal government per the 10th Amendment, has zero jurisdiction and authority in such issues. It's a State matter at most.
But, for establishment Democrats and Republicans, the Constitution is merely an advisory document, not the law of the land.
laurahoustonFeb 10, 2012
lol, hurry line-up your next fake anti-obama crusade.
pc25Feb 10, 2012
He's in serious damage control. What don't you understand. This will cost him votes in November.
heathermgilbertFeb 10, 2012
If he gets re-elected, I bet be decides to reverse this decision. The only thing constraining him in any way is his desire to be re-elected. In a second term he will not have such constraints and will be dangerous.
laurahoustonFeb 10, 2012
After Obamas second term then we have more dangerous people lined up, fear us.
heathermgilbertFeb 10, 2012
Apparently you don't think liberties and freedoms are important - only what YOU want. That's not how it is supposed to work here in the USA. Nobody "owes" you s**t.
anomaly100Feb 10, 2012
"Liberties and freedoms" The T-Party talking point while they try to crush said liberties and freedoms.
pc25Feb 10, 2012
Apparently you don't think liberties and freedoms are important
Look at what they applaud their OWS heroes over.
FenderStratocasterFeb 10, 2012
@HeathermG: He's already a danger.
heathermgilbertFeb 10, 2012
Yes, he is
TGRHvWGAFFeb 13, 2012
You're both morons. Go away.
dividebyoFeb 10, 2012
" In a second term he will not have such constraints and will be dangerous."
If you think it is dangerous, then it must actualy be OK...
heathermgilbertFeb 10, 2012
Spoken like a true useful idiot
TGRHvWGAFFeb 13, 2012
Wow, an empty-headed conservative trying to influence others through irrational fear. There's something you don't see every day.
laurahoustonFeb 10, 2012
You don't understand that this President places the American people and their right to a fair shake in life, first. He's no superman but he's a lot fairer than what your big-satan has done to America.
Win or lose, cost him votes.... he's willing to stand there and take the heat over these issues, give it his best try.
He may lose the election but we'll still love him.Comment is buried, click here to see the rest.
pc25Feb 10, 2012
if he was willing to take the heat on this one he wouldn't have caved.
skagoFeb 10, 2012
He is for getting people entitlements. For the first time the "takers" in the US take more money from the gov't than the "makers" give to the gov't in taxes. In the 1960's less than 15% didn't pay income taxes, today almost 50% of people don't pay income taxes.
A country of entitled people is not the country our founders envisioned.
usarugulaFeb 10, 2012
People don't pay income taxes because they don't make enough money to pay income taxes and still eat. Sounds like you need to take a gander at wealth disparity and how it coincides with Reagan-trumpeted "trickle down" economics.Comment is buried, click here to see the rest.
elisevilleFeb 11, 2012
"Makers"? Perhaps you mean our modern monopolistic owners and takers who get others, usually paying no more than slave wages to impoverished foreigners and making less and less in the once great U.S. of A..
Your "owners" and "takers" own and take a far larger chunck of our GDP today, but pay far lower rates in taxes than they did in the 60's. They set off our current unemployment and foreclosure economy with their government backed betting spree gone bad. No surprise that those left without means to eat cost more to keep alive than your now nearly invisible "owners and takers" taxbase. They now increasingly own and manipulate our government.Comment is buried, click here to see the rest.
TGRHvWGAFFeb 13, 2012
Makers and takers huh? And here I thought you guys didn't like class warfare?
falstaffFeb 10, 2012
Any time Democrats are mad that a decision goes too far, and Republicans are mad that it doesn't go far enough (or vice versa), you know it's a good compromise.
The bigger question is, even though this is hardly a huge policy matter, why is it resting solely with the President? The Executive has limited, and clearly defined powers in the Constitution, and I don't think unilaterally regulating commerce is one of them.
stevanoskiFeb 10, 2012
Listening to Obama's statements to the attack gerbil Matt Lauer it sounds like he would enjoy a dictatorship.
skagoFeb 10, 2012
Exactly, he waited for congress to pass HHS and then he started adding what he wanted afterwards. It isn't in his power, but he doesn't care.
TGRHvWGAFFeb 13, 2012
Something that has been swept under the rug quite a bit is that the apolitical Institute of Medicine is the group that classified birth control as preventive care. It might seem silly on the surface except that BCP's are regularly prescribed to prevent severe cramps and periods as well as acne.
r0am3rFeb 10, 2012
Blink? I don't think so. He got exactly what he wanted. Now he is telling private insurance companies they must provide abortions. Using the church was simply Obama's way to circumvent the Constitution once again.
The Obama regime got exactly what they wanted. Now they are making insurance companies pay for their liberal agenda. Who do you think will pay for this new requirement? The insurance companies will pass the buck to their customers.
Freedom means nothing to Obama.
karmashockFeb 12, 2012
He can either cave or get his wings clipped by a political backlash/possibly the supreme court.
This was a blunder on his part. His best move is to retreat and do something else. This is especially stupid right before an election.
Is anyone going to vote for him now that wasn't going to vote for him before because of this? No.
Is anyone not going to vote for him now that might have voted for him before? Maybe.
And that in a nutshell is why this was a stupid move.
readCAPSonlyFeb 11, 2012
DIGG liberals are PAThetic, Retarded IdiOTS. it's Amazing how REtarded these WAsTeful peices of Crap are to Human socIety. they are No Good.
bwiiiFeb 10, 2012
If it really is just that easy for the President to command payment for services from companies, simply by executive fiat, then why can he not simply order insurance companies to pay for everything? For everybody? Always?
An executive order commanding private insurers to pay 100% of all medical costs for 100% of our population from birth to death would surely solve this whole "health care crisis" thing..!
treehugger87Feb 10, 2012
I do not understand this issue at all. Why in the world a religion would prohibit birth control in the first place is completely beyond rational. Why the wives and husbands of America would stand up for the practice is beyond rational.
That said, if the Catholic Church wants to drive their employees to Planned Parenthood once a month for more free birth control pills, that's fine with me.
auditortuxFeb 10, 2012
"Why in the world a religion would prohibit birth control in the first place is completely beyond rational"
I can give you the basic theological reason - overly simplistic reasoning of the phrase "Be fruitful and multiply". But if you go much deeper, its an entire line of reasoning that leads the Catholic church to be against birth control, abortion and the death penalty. But they also provide a great deal of after-birth support, some of the largest foster homes and adoption agencies across the globe.
I might not agree with their stances, but I have to give them credit - they are consistent.
user500Feb 10, 2012
can give you the basic theological reason -"Be fruitful and multiply" because we need more little boys to butt f**k
auditortuxFeb 10, 2012
I don't say it much on digg, but you're sick. I honestly don't want to know your views on Islam...
johnnysoftwareFeb 10, 2012
Did you genuflect when you deflected?
auditortuxFeb 10, 2012
Sorry, I don't think that user500 is my superior, so no.
His comment had nothing to do with the discussion, he just wanted a cheap, vulgar shot. While digg has these, that one crossed a line.Comment is buried, click here to see the rest.
pc25Feb 10, 2012
that's Bubba/Bubba2 from the old propeller. Ignore him. He is known and banned for his cheap vulgar shots.
FenderStratocasterFeb 10, 2012
"because we need more little boys to butt f**k"
So, you're an admitted pedophile? Reported.
shakagoogooFeb 10, 2012
"So, you're an admitted pedophile? Reported."
So, you;re knowing slandering someone? Reported.
treehugger87Feb 10, 2012
The theological reason may have been rational at some point - like when the life expectancy rate was age 30 and infant mortality was high. But in the modern day, where infant mortality is low and life expectancy is in the 70s it is no longer rational.Comment is buried, click here to see the rest.
auditortuxFeb 10, 2012
Actually, most of our social safety net programs (Social Security, Medicare) depend on more than just replacement of current adults - Social Security might work at a 5:1 worker:retiree level, but at a 2:1 or 1:1 won't. So here, having multiple children is actually a social benefit...Comment is buried, click here to see the rest.
treehugger87Feb 10, 2012
Which I'm sure is *exactly* what the person who wrote that line intended when they wrote it. I'm surprised it doesn't say "be fruitful and multiply lest the worker:retiree ratio fall below sustainable levels."
auditortuxFeb 10, 2012
I have no doubt that it was not the reason it was written there, but it certain does have a modern day benefit...
treehugger87Feb 10, 2012
Yes, the Bible is funny that way. You can find a quote to support whatever you want at any given moment (as long as you ignore everything else that contradicts it).
Ouzel7Feb 10, 2012
It's not required to be "rational". Some would say that baptism isn't rational ... or confession ... or communion ... or any number of things that are a part of religious belief.
treehugger87Feb 10, 2012
As marriage equality has shown us, in order to make a legal argument rationality is required. It is not enough to simply say I am religious, so I am going to have different rights than you.Comment is buried, click here to see the rest.
Ouzel7Feb 10, 2012
So you would also force churches to perform gay marriages?
ultimisFeb 10, 2012
As the controversy is about forcing a Religious Institution (Catholic Church) to fund something that their doctrine advocates against you are crossing a line into constitutionality, not just law. A law that would force everyone to give blood would also contradict Jehovah Witnesses. Not to mention this violates are liberties as individuals.
elisevilleFeb 14, 2012
The churches that are having a hissy fit over being required to offer full preventive health plans, are only being asked to do this in their public tax supported hospitals and schools, (which do not hire based on church membership.) Though, in regards to the Catholic Church, 98% of Catholic women also use it at points in their lives. More than half of our states already require this, and 8 even require church staff to have these plans.
The Federal Government is not even asking them to offer these programs in their non-publicly funded institutions.
As regards marriage equality, churches are not forced to perform any marriages that are unacceptable under their dogmas, though states must follow more open marriage licence laws. Catholic, Mormon and Jewish churches are famous for being quite picky as to the beliefs of their straight couples, too. The Feds just don't step on religious beliefs.
Also, the constitutionality argument has been terribly muddied when churches, acting as businesses, accept tax exemptions on their properties and incomes, and government monies for their health and education programs. It's really hypocritical that they make these arguments at the same moment as they attempt to affect political races, against the specific law that was to balance out that support.
h8f8kesFeb 10, 2012
The theological rational may not make sense but it doesn't have to, for the same reason I could go shout jibberish in public if i choose.
From a strictly legal stand point the government forcing those institutions to commit a sin violates the First Amendment's prohibition of laws respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise of religion.
Anyone who supports getting intelligent design out of school should applaud this as a barrier between the church and state IMHO.
vitriolandangstFeb 10, 2012
The Catholic Church can be good at times.
For instance, Pope John Paul (now a saint I believe) said that Catholics should be more concerned with ending poverty, sickness, and stopping wars than with their other concerns like lewdness, money and corporate rights. -- I'm paraphrasing and can't find the speech right now.
>> But in Public -- I think the Churches are VERY inconsistent. There are a lot of passionate people who get thrown in prison protesting the School of the Americas -- and the Churches forsake them, while remaining mostly silent when it comes time to stop wars.
Most abortions are situations created by women with poor educations and life prospects, or women who didn't take birth control. You find a lot more out of wedlock births going on in Devout homes than you do in educated Liberal homes.Comment is buried, click here to see the rest.
TGRHvWGAFFeb 10, 2012
They're consistent with morals and science that were in place in the 30's, give or take a few decades. I'm personally curious how the church responds to birth control as a prescription for other conditions that have nothing to do with pregnancy. I have friends who have been prescribed oral contraceptives for severe cramps, and I've heard of birth control as a treatment for severe acne, like the kind that leaves facial scars if it isn't addressed.
If I may offer one respectful disagreement though - their stance has nothing to do with multiplying. After all, there is no church rule that says that couples must procreate often. However when couples do procreate, it should be for the purpose of procreation. It is against church dogma to "pull out" in an effort to not become pregnant (as ineffective as that method may be).Comment is buried, click here to see the rest.
auditortuxFeb 10, 2012
I've wondered that myself, but I would imagine those are normally prescribed because the patient already has birth control. I'm sure there are other medications that could be taken if the parent/patient refuses.
TGRHvWGAFFeb 10, 2012
Not that anecdotal evidence means much, but I personally knew someone in high school who was on birth control specifically because of severe cramps, and she wouldn't have been on it otherwise. When it comes to treating severe cramps the options are to take painkillers (not a great thing to take on a regular basis) and to elevate the levels of estrogen and progestin. The latter is exactly what birth control pills do.
Granted, one could make a prescription pill that elevates those hormones for the specific purpose of reducing cramping, but it would have the side effect of preventing pregnancy as well.Comment is buried, click here to see the rest.
stevanoskiFeb 10, 2012
Hey the 30's. Isn't that when your heroine margret sanger wanted to force sterilization on blacks?
TGRHvWGAFFeb 10, 2012
I don't see how that comment could possibly be more irrelevant.
stevanoskiFeb 10, 2012
Because it points out how many on the Left love abortion because it kills minority babies?
TGRHvWGAFFeb 10, 2012
I'm going to let you in on a little secret: I think states should be able to ban abortion.
It's the truth - I really think they should be able to. But I believe they should only be able to do so once they've implemented a comprehensive program that includes age-appropriate sex education along with ready access to standard and emergency contraception. Likewise any state that fails to maintain those programs should see their ban lifted.
Most liberals wouldn't be on board with that belief of mine, nor for that matter would most conservatives. But it's abortion so naturally some polarization is expected.
I mention that just to illustrate a simple point: Anyone who truly believes that abortion kills a baby has a moral imperative to stand in favor any contraception method that prevents a sperm cell from fertilizing an egg, and to support ready access to those contraception methods for all. That imperative particularly extends to those who are the least capable of raising a child.
Fiscal conservatives may not like paying for someone else's condoms, but if they believe that abortion is killing a baby then that trumps their fiscal beliefs. Social conservatives may not like young people feeling like they can have sex without consequence, but that belief is also trumped by the moral imperative if they truly believe that abortion kills a baby.
Now why don't you quit regurgitating talking points that are hot off the presses and do some soul-searching. If you're truly against abortion because you believe it takes a life then all this other BS should be irrelevant for you.Comment is buried, click here to see the rest.
atomheartmotherFeb 10, 2012
"It is against church dogma to "pull out" in an effort to not become pregnant (as ineffective as that method may be)."
Ineffective perhaps, but enjoyable nonetheless.
stevanoskiFeb 10, 2012
lol
TGRHvWGAFFeb 10, 2012
It's only allowed if you make the sign of the cross on her back. Extra style points if you say it in Latin.
atomheartmotherFeb 10, 2012
You're aiming low, dude.
TGRHvWGAFFeb 10, 2012
Yah but putting it in her hair would be inappropriate if you're at a nice restaurant.
TGRHvWGAFFeb 10, 2012
Wow, some people have no sense of humor.
geogeerFeb 10, 2012
Even this is inaccurate, though better. It says that whenever couple enter the marital embrace it is for a two fold reason. The first is procreation, the second is to promote the unity of the couple.
Thus every act must be open to life, but not necessarily with the intention of bringing new life about. It is permissible to engage in NFP for grave reasons.
TGRHvWGAFFeb 10, 2012
But "sabotaging" the act is forbidden. I suppose it'd be permissible think "I really hope she doesn't get preggers" for all the good that would do.
Bottom line though, any Catholic couple that doesn't have roughly a one-to-one ratio of kids to years they've been together is either breaking the rules or woefully undersexed.Comment is buried, click here to see the rest.
geogeerFeb 10, 2012
Well not quite, the families certainly can be expected to be larger than normal. However, if you really cannot afford another child or you wish to space them for health (physical/mental) reasons it is permissible to use NFP which has a success rate equal to or greater than other forms of birth control.
Catholicism demands an openness to life. It doesn't say you have to breed like rabbits, but it does teach that life is a precious gift to be shared and if you have the means to do so you should share it.
TGRHvWGAFFeb 13, 2012
I don't know what your needs are like hoss, but in my book anything less than once every couple days qualifies as "woefully undersexed". And apparently the majority of Catholics agree with me.
savetheseaFeb 10, 2012
"Why in the world a religion would prohibit birth control in the first place is completely beyond rational"
Simple, they need to keep the Catholic population up. If Catholics started using contraception, there would be less little ones to brainwash into the cult.
I speak from experience as a former confirmed CatholicComment is buried, click here to see the rest.
geogeerFeb 10, 2012
Today's injunctions against birth control were re-affirmed in a 1968 document by Pope Paul VI called Humanae Vitae. He warned of four results if the widespread use of contraceptives was accepted:
General lowering of moral standards
A rise in infidelity, and illegitimacy
The reduction of women to objects used to satisfy men.
Government coercion in reproductive matters.
Seems the Pope was correct.
pc25Feb 10, 2012
seems that way.
pc25Feb 10, 2012
it's called separation of Church and State. It works BOTH ways.
mortventFeb 10, 2012
funny they are not legislating what a church can say or do.. yet we have a church trying to say what the state can do
It's a business law! So only a business is affected, much like one run by a group that believes women should stay at home and be treated like cattle can't discriminate against them.Comment is buried, click here to see the rest.
pc25Feb 10, 2012
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or PROHIBITING THE FREE EXERCISE thereof;
mortventFeb 10, 2012
You are free to exercise your religion all you want.
But a business is required to provide better health care coverage.
After all you already pay for it in any case, it's included by default in many health care plans used at public schools, government jobs, etc... paid for by your taxes!Comment is buried, click here to see the rest.
treehugger87Feb 10, 2012
Nothing about treating all employees fairly regardless of their employer's religious beliefs breaks that rule.
I'm going to invent a religion that says no person is allowed to wear clothes. Just TRY to arrest me when I run around pantsing people.Comment is buried, click here to see the rest.
stevanoskiFeb 10, 2012
Already is one, as usual a day late and a dollar short.
http://religion.wikia.com/wiki/Christian_Naturism
FenderStratocasterFeb 10, 2012
"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or PROHIBITING THE FREE EXERCISE thereof;"
Obama has contempt for congress and believes it warrants an end-run if his agenda is not advanced. Obama knows that he is not congress, and because of this, nothing he can do would be a violation of the 1st Amendment, in his eyes. This is what dictators do.
mortventFeb 10, 2012
I want to know how a business law prevents you from exercising your religion
TGRHvWGAFFeb 10, 2012
I'd love to see a case go to the supreme court where an individual's ability to express his or her religion is pitted against an employer's ability to exercise theirs. When the issue is an employment matter and not a case of a church granting or withdrawing a religious title, the individual wins every time.Comment is buried, click here to see the rest.
stevanoskiFeb 10, 2012
Sigh, this is a religious issue is there anyway to get that across to you?
TGRHvWGAFFeb 10, 2012
Sigh, everyone knows it's a religious issue. Specifically, it's a question of whether or not my employer can force its religion on me just because it has a religious affiliation. Not everyone is as simple-minded as you hoss.
stevanoskiFeb 11, 2012
You may not know this but you have the freedom NOT to work for those companies! You seem to be somewhat dense at times.
TGRHvWGAFFeb 13, 2012
That would be exactly the spot where your argument falls flat. The question of whether or not an employer can engage in discrimination based on race, gender, or creed has already been answered. You may not like the answer, but it wouldn't be the first time your beliefs have fallen on the wrong side of history.
pc25Feb 10, 2012
they are not legislating what a church can say or do
They "DO" not pay for contraceptive. You are trying to legislate what they do.
mortventFeb 10, 2012
you pay taxes, you pay for them under government health care programs
So why complain now because a business isn't exempt from treating all employes fairly regardless of religion?Comment is buried, click here to see the rest.
pc25Feb 10, 2012
I am sorry that you keep running into this little road block called the Constitution
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press;
mortventFeb 10, 2012
and I guess you have a logic block in the fact it doesn't forbid or abridge anything.
It requires a company not a church to obey business laws.
pc25Feb 10, 2012
it's a law
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, OR PROHIBITING THE FREE EXERCISE THEREOF
ganjadude4391Feb 10, 2012
What mort is forgetting is that these businesses (mainly hospitals and catholic schools) are NOT for profit, they are non profit and therefore have different laws in play to begin with.
mortventFeb 10, 2012
Non-profit still has to play by the same rules as for profit companies.
they just get extra rules and regs in regards to taxes
TGRHvWGAFFeb 10, 2012
You can repeat it as loud as you want PC, it doesn't change the fact that employees have first amendment rights as well as their employers.
pc25Feb 11, 2012
yep they sure do
http://www.firstamendmentcenter.org/justices-religious-church-workers-can%E2%80%99t-sue-for-discrimination
It was, nevertheless, the first time the high court has acknowledged the existence of a “ministerial exception” to anti-discrimination laws — a doctrine developed in lower court rulings. This doctrine says the First Amendment’s guarantee of freedom of religion shields churches and their operations from the reach of such protective laws when the issue involves employees of these institutions.
notice that this case involves the EEOC who has ruled that religious institutions must provide contraception otherwise they can be sued for discrimination under Title VII of the Civil Rights Act of 1964.
TGRHvWGAFFeb 13, 2012
Wow, what a shock - an intellectually challenged conservative engaging in a false comparison. Did you actually read the case? For starters it was with a church that would likely have satisfied Sebelius's exclusion for organizations whose primary function is proselytizing. The school part might make it somewhat questionable, but since religious schools exist for the purpose of brainwashing anyways I'm sure it'll come out in the wash.
More importantly, look at the ruling. The church was protected in taking away a religious title which in turn disqualified the teacher from her position. What the court ruled is that the church can give and take titles away absent EEOC interference. Interpreting that ruling as an indication that the church can discriminate against its employees at will under the guise of religious freedom is a gross exaggeration.
pinkfish411Feb 10, 2012
Whether you think it's rational or not is completely irrelevant. The point of freedom of conscience is that we can follow our convictions no matter how much sense they make to anyone else.
I for one have no interest in limited access to birth control, but I respect freedom of conscience in general, so I'm glad the administration is backing down and making an accommodation.
TaliscatFeb 11, 2012
Why should they?
I am not a catholic, yet my boss is. Why should my rights to my religion be trampled under his?
TaliscatFeb 11, 2012
Wow no answer just dug down.
Shows how painful that question is to answer huh.
Why does your religion trump mine in a company
mortventFeb 11, 2012
Because you are not a catholic...
regulatorredFeb 11, 2012
The Catholic Church is in the business of selling their brand of God & prohibiting birth control is a great way to drum up new customers.
zetavuFeb 10, 2012
The compromise is an opt out system, meaning those with religious objections can opt out, but those who do not have objections can have access to birth control through their insurance plans. Basically the law now requires that non-church religious institutions cannot block birth control through employee offered insurance, however they are not required to provide it as mandatory. Religious complaints are that they are being forced to do something that goes against their principles, however the fact is they are not being forced to do anything, however they are not allowed to force other people who do not share their beliefs into a situation where they cannot get birth control from employee sponsored insurance. As a side not, insurance is actually cheaper if birth control is part of the plan, removing birth control raises costs.
Preparing to have comment buried as it is logical and makes sense in an emotional pisswar.
johnnysoftwareFeb 10, 2012
Wait, "those with religious objections" can opt out?
What the heck is the antecedent of the word "those"?
If its the insured, they can opt out of using birth control and they can opt out of submitting the insurance reimbursement request as well so having the option to do so or not do so is not forcing them to do anything.
But if the institution employing them or insuring them takes away their option, that is hardly a "freedom". It is the exact opposite.
I think it is important to speak clearly as to whether the freedom being demanded is one being afforded to individuals or taken away from them by some oppressive institution when this topic comes out.
Other than that, I think you make some good points.
You also point out a very important fact: birth control is much, much less expensive than pregnancy.
This birth control thing is basically an Italy-dictated rule.
Last time I checked, their government was going bankrupt, their economy was in shambles, and their small business owners were taking out loans from mafia loan sharks to stay afloat in the environment they created themselves.
US tourists have fared very, very badly there too in recent years, when you take the experiences of exchange student Amanda Knox and cruise ship passengers into account.
Leadership is not steering your passengers on a dangerous course, running them aground, looting the safe to take care of yourself when that happens, and abandoning the ship and the people on it. That is called exploiting a position of power -- not working for the common good.
Decades ago, the US was at war with Italy, which run by a dictator, had allied itself with some notorious German dictator, and was running a fascist state where the government told individuals what to do "or else". The People got so sick of that Italian leadership they hung it upside down and killed it.
Ironically, before he died he gave the Italian [Catholic] church its opaque banking system, which is the least transparent in whole world. Hardly someone you can take at face value their statements on what saves money.
They hide the money they make, spend, and save from the whole world. I say, let the Vatican bank open ALL of its books and in revealing the big picture, show us how preventing responsible use of birth control pills/devices saves them and US money.
Italy's fiasco then like now is probably nothing like anything we would want to emulate.
Instead of putting out heads in the sand regarding this action or that action being "supported" or not, we should look at goals.
Instead of looking myopically of one cost or the other, we should look at the overall cost to the system and all supporters of the system -- not just one group. Not just one expense in the whole rigamarole either, but the bottom line.
If you want to look at individual items and actions, look at the human cost not the financial cost. You can't really aggregate human costs the way you can financial ones.
There is no balancing of accounts when it comes to human suffering, misery, poverty, ill-health, early death, and war/terrorism/mafias that seems to emerge from a lack of birth control.
Birth control in the form of contraceptives was stemmed in Africa, Ireland, Mexico, and radical countries in the Middle East. Crime gangs and militias emerged, conflicts escalated to shootings, dismembering living people, and bombings. It is not just a coincidence.
It is what happens when you have offspring(s) the number of which overwhelms the finite human abilities and resources of their parents to care for them. Sadly, from looking at the IRA, the mafia, and other political/criminal/religious organizations -- you do not get the idea that they made good foster parents.
Had the parents had a manageable number of children or even one child at the right time, they probably would not have raised their offspring to be homicidal maniacs like some gang made them.
So when dollar expenditures that are being handled collectively, yes, those you can look at bottom lines and that is what cost-benefit analysis (CBA) is for various scenarios. CBA has been used in US (though perhaps not Italian) government budget politics for years.
I think @zetavu is right for encouraging looking at the big picture. It is clearly a picture that our foreign dictator friends do not want us, as in the people of the US, looking at rationally.
I think Italy can learn from America by listening to it. It's clearly not learning anything by being a tyrannical dictator to US again.Comment is buried, click here to see the rest.
anomaly100Feb 10, 2012
Well thank God! We can't have women using contraceptives! We should all be obedient little housewives. This is just great news for women!
kasha34Feb 10, 2012
What a false point.
Their doctor will still prescribe it. They just don't get to have their co-workers paying for it. (benefits cost money. the more they cost the less your employer can pay you.)
laurahoustonFeb 10, 2012
you think 'FOR PROFIT' private insurance companies won't take increased pregnancy rate into consideration? hahaha!
Op out of birth control will make rates go much,much higher. medical costs for pregnancy and the children born is expensive.
Then it brings up another change that should be made with insurance companies.
The first person pays the full rate, spouse and kids a much cheaper rate. Why should the single payer support all those insurance discount rates.? You want a lot of kids?....pay full price for every kid.Comment is buried, click here to see the rest.
kasha34Feb 10, 2012
Working people have babies because they don't want to spend the few dollars for birth control?
Are people really that stupid?
aadyssFeb 10, 2012
It seems we have a battle between the Catholic church and Henry VIII once again. Henry wanted what he wanted and Obama, wants what he wants only poor old Obama...not quite King yet.
Poor old Henry and Obama appear to suffer from the same disease, that of extreme narcissism.
mortventFeb 10, 2012
maybe Obama should do like King James and rewrite the bible to suit modern times..
stevanoskiFeb 10, 2012
Well put mort
heathermgilbertFeb 10, 2012
Don't give him any ideas, Mort
mortventFeb 10, 2012
The bible is outdated, as is most of the church...
case in point is this issue.
Religion is supposed to be separate from the state. So stay out of legislation with religion, or let the state into religion.
Tax exemptions are enough, let people choose if they want to take the option for the birth control.
Because regardless you will be paying part of it through the insurance companies unless the vatican takes money out of their accounts and founds their own. And regardless your personal taxes go towards paying for them for state and federal employees health care plans (or is everyone going catholic and asking for tax exemptions)Comment is buried, click here to see the rest.
aadyssFeb 10, 2012
mortvent,
You mean the translation where the King's first instruction was, "The ordinary Bible read in the Church, commonly called the Bishops' Bible, to be followed, and as little altered as the original will permit."
TGRHvWGAFFeb 13, 2012
Except for that bit about witches. We need that verse retranslated so we can justify some hangings.
aadyssFeb 13, 2012
Perhaps we should include the red hot metal on genitalia, slow roastings, placing in furs and killed by wild dogs, placed in arenas and killed by wild beasts for public entertainment, if not by then dead killed by the sword by gladiators, crucifixions and be-heading.
Oh, that's what was done to thousands of Christians. Well, I'm sure that many fine people in this nation would love to bring that back for the Christians. If only they could find a way to get away with that. Well, I'm sure some are working on it.
ferretmanFeb 10, 2012
@laura - And why shouldn't they?
There are all kinds of increased risks healthwise associated with pregnancy...don't see an issue with private insurance companies taking those into account.
That could in fact be a discriminator between a private plan and a public one--the not-for-profit ones wouldn't need to take increased risks into consideration. Of course they're likely to end up increasing prices for everybody, but that's the way it goes.
brewbeauFeb 10, 2012
No, instead their coworkers will paying for prenatal care, maternity leave, and then a child's medical treatment. That's much cheaper.
h8f8kesFeb 10, 2012
Because having to pay for your own birth control = automatic pregnancy?
fitzal77Feb 10, 2012
At costs up around $600/year, I can see some people choosing the money over the pills. This increases the chance of accidental pregnancy. Delivery alone gets to almost $10K, so it's not readily apparent which option is the cheapest overall, but does it matter? Shouldn't we be making these decisions based on what's RIGHT, not what's cheapest? If all pregnancies were planned, we would all be much happier.Comment is buried, click here to see the rest.
pc25Feb 10, 2012
wow a big $12 dollars a week. Cut down on the Starbucks.
fitzal77Feb 10, 2012
@pc25
Yes, Some really do have to change their habits so they can afford a prescription that will improve their health. Keep in mind that this is IN ADDITION to the thousands of dollars a year they pay in health insurance premiums, you know, that thing that's supposed to pay for their health care.Comment is buried, click here to see the rest.
savetheseaFeb 10, 2012
"wow a big $12 dollars a week. Cut down on the Starbucks
Another sanctimonious reply. You do not know people's situations and from most of the comments I am reading, most are assuming only single people us contraception.
For some families right now, $12 a week is huge. But I guess they can just abstain from sex if they do not have the money - I mean life sucks already, might as well eliminate all joy. What a bunch of smug, high-horse comments.Comment is buried, click here to see the rest.
pc25Feb 11, 2012
what sanctimonious reply,
"for some families right now, $12 a week is huge"
No kidding and the clown in the White House along with his policies is largely responsible.
savetheseaFeb 11, 2012
"No kidding and the clown in the White House along with his policies is largely responsible."
silly comment aside - are you justifying making those in need pay because you do not like the "ass clown's" policies? Typical republican response - instead of trying to help those in need, let them suffer so you can make a point about the man in the office.
Class act. Bring it on sock puppets
h8f8kesFeb 11, 2012
So lack of $1.71 a day = pregnancy? Damn, I better save up then.
TGRHvWGAFFeb 13, 2012
So just to be clear - the left looks at the poorest among us and says "Wow, those are the people who are least capable of raising a child, and who are the most likely to find themselves dealing with an unwanted pregnancy. We can lower the number of abortions that get performed if we make birth control free for those who can't afford it, and in so doing save ourselves the cost of pre- and postnatal care for the unwanted pregnancies that carry to term while likewise reducing abortions for those pregnancies that aren't. Win!"
And the right has a problem with that? What the hell is the matter with you people?
That settles it: if you're pro-life you should vote for a democrat.
markglFeb 10, 2012
Don't. Just don't.
davidnivenFeb 10, 2012
Only a liberal wacko would think not mandating that everyone pay for something is akin to banning it.
But, they can't help it. Liberal moonbats just seem to love communism.
savetheseaFeb 10, 2012
do you understand how insurance works?
davidnivenFeb 10, 2012
Do you understand how the free market works? Everyone knew that church's insurance policy when they signed up freely.
Don't like it? Don't work there. The only people who seem to have problems here are big government nannies who don't even work for that church.
mortventFeb 10, 2012
Well if you don't like the business laws, don't run a business
Works both ways.
h8f8kesFeb 10, 2012
Be careful what you wish for.......
kasha34Feb 10, 2012
Who is John Galt?
ljseinfeldFeb 10, 2012
@kasha - You think you sound clever, but you don't. Read a couple more books and find some better quotes to parrot back to us please.
pc25Feb 11, 2012
@lj read the constitution
TGRHvWGAFFeb 13, 2012
Last I checked John Galt was a work of fiction, not unlike the world in which conservative policies result in anything good happening.
savetheseaFeb 10, 2012
So does that mean you are happy with Obama's decision?
laurahoustonFeb 10, 2012
It's a very clever idea.
op out and inform employee is a sure way to take the federal gov. out of the middle.
now the church can inform their employees why they get second-rate basic insurance.Comment is buried, click here to see the rest.
aadyssFeb 10, 2012
And in the meantime, thousands, perhaps millions, get first rate, reduced cost care in Catholic hospitals and first rate help from Catholic charities such as hot meals and free food and many other things. Perhaps the church should get out of that business or perhaps the government should start meddling in that also.
atomheartmotherFeb 10, 2012
"It's a very clever idea. "
You really think so? The political damage is done, and this has been nothing but a huge loser for the president politically.
Catholics make up a quarter of the voting population in this country. We'll see how "clever" this episode turns out to be in November.
savetheseaFeb 10, 2012
Can't make the conservatives happy, damned if you do, damned if you don't.
vitriolandangstFeb 10, 2012
If a Church is going to ACT like a corporation -- it has to follow the same rules.
If the CHURCH doesn't like the rules, it can quit acting like a business.
The LAW states they have to have a provision for birth control. If their employees don't CHOOSE to take advantage of that, that's THEIR choice -- but no business or Church can make that for them.
The "Free Market" does nothing but lead to ruin. Government has to make rules that businesses follow so that society benefits -- otherwise you end up with a country like Haiti.Comment is buried, click here to see the rest.
geogeerFeb 10, 2012
The bigger question is why does the Government have the right to mandate birth control coverage as birth control is based on a lifestyle choice. If I want to go drive in rally racing does this mean I can force my employer to cover the cost of a roll cage for my car?
pc25Feb 10, 2012
The "Free Market" does nothing but lead to ruin. Government has to make rules that businesses follow so that society benefits -- otherwise you end up with a country like Haiti.
commie boy
aadyssFeb 10, 2012
vitriolandangst
How in the world in that mind of yours is the church acting kike a corporation? I never seen Macy's or Best Buy collecting bags of food, cooking hot meals and proving medical care for t,he populace.
As I stated before, perhaps the church should just get out of the business of helping the poor and downtrodden with reduced cost of hospitalization, free food at their food banks and daily hot meals for the hungry at their kitchens. The LAW doesn't state they have to do any of those charities. They can also send their formally employed to the unemployment lines where the government can provide them their contraceptives and medical insurance. Problem solved and life would be better for those employees.
Let's have you personally pick up the cross and devote your entire life to that work of providing the medical attention and the packages of food and hot meals across the entire nation. Have fun!
TGRHvWGAFFeb 10, 2012
The government has a right to mandate birth control coverage because it results in lower costs in the form of prenatal and postnatal care (the private sector figured that out already) and it also results in fewer abortions being performed (remind me again, you guys don't like abortion right?)
The better question is, why should an employer that hires people of all (and no) religions have the right to deny specific medical procedures based on their morality?Comment is buried, click here to see the rest.
atomheartmotherFeb 10, 2012
"The government has a right to mandate birth control coverage because it results in lower costs..."
So does mandating euthanasia for anyone who's a net recipient of tax revenue rather than a contributor. Do you think the government has the right to save money by instituting that policy as well?
s**tty argument there bro.
linuxpersonFeb 10, 2012
"The government has a right to mandate birth control "
Are you f**king kidding me? GOVERNMENT DOES NOT HAVE RIGHTS.
Only people have rights, moron. You need to move your sorry freedom hating ass to Somalia, the bastion of socialist policies.
johnnysoftwareFeb 10, 2012
Actually, 98% of Catholics have used birth control. And the US government subsidizes a helluva lot of Catholic "aid" programs, which the Italy-based organization has decreed shall only hire its own members whenever it feels like it, where ever it feels like it.
So in essence, people of the US are forced to deprive members of an organization who want birth control and then forced to pay for the accidents that result from the lack of birth control.
Birth control pills are a mix of not just the primary effect; preventing conception, but other side effects, some of which are generally healthful and some of which could possibly be unhealthy sometimes.
That is why people have personal physicians who take their own individual personal risks into account.
The Catholic church certainly does not do that. Especially with policies like this revealing it.
It should be up to a woman and her doctor whether she takes the pill or not. It is her body, her medicine, and her health that are affected.
It really doesn't affect guys with funny hats in Italy at all.
So maybe they are the ones that should but out.
This is America and this is the 21st century. It's not the Dark Ages where you can just go around burning to death people you don't like or who have property you want.
Last time I checked, priests and bishops and popes supposedly did not have a personal need for birth control.
And you talk about meddling.Comment is buried, click here to see the rest.
geogeerFeb 10, 2012
Pregnancy is not an illness.
The use of birth control is a personal choice. Why should an employer pay for the personal lifestyle choice of their employees? Does that mean if I wan to go rock climbing, my employer has to pay for all my gear? No. It is my choice to partake in this activity.
aadyssFeb 10, 2012
Perhaps the government should just take over the Catholic Church and run it themselves then the government could do what they want and we will refer to Obama as King Henry VIII, Your Majesty.
geogeerFeb 10, 2012
@aadyss - I think he'd actually like that.
savetheseaFeb 10, 2012
geogeer
You all do not like supporting the children after they are born, but deny the parents an easy alternative.
If you go rock climbing and fall, guess who pays for the medical care..........Comment is buried, click here to see the rest.
geogeerFeb 10, 2012
@savethesea: so you think that my boss should buy me rock climbing equipment if I go?
I believe that people have to be responsible for their actions. If you want to have sex, be prepared for a child to be the result. If you want to be an adult then be an adult. If you cannot figure out that babies are the natural result of having sex then you are definitely much too immature to be having sex.
If I go rock climbing I know that falling and injuring myself is a possible outcome. If I go bungie jumping I know the line snapping is a possible outcome. Grow up if you really want to be an adult.
kasha34Feb 10, 2012
@savthesea
"deny the parents an easy alternative. "
Their doctor can still prescribe birth control pills.
And they can fill the prescription. And pay for it.
savetheseaFeb 10, 2012
"If I go rock climbing I know that falling and injuring myself is a possible outcome"
It is, and if you get injured your insurance pays your medical bills, why should everyone else have to pay for your "lifestyle" choice of rock climbing (never said your employer should buy your equipment).
"I believe that people have to be responsible for their actions. If you want to have sex, be prepared for a child to be the result"
So a married couple with one or two kids should simply abstain from sex? What a ridiculous statement. If said family was to have another kid that tipped the scales and sent them struggling, you would be the first to complain about them having to go on food stamps, etc.
Get with the times.Comment is buried, click here to see the rest.
geogeerFeb 10, 2012
So you aren't in favour of paying for one type of preventative measure (climbing equipment), but you are for another - contraception. I see.
So your selfish desire to have sex is greater than the security of your family? I thought that there was nothing that a loving parent wouldn't do for their family. Besides contraception has a large number of failures. In fact over 50% of abortions are performed on people using contraception.
Be an adult and do what is necessary. If you truly loved you could go without sex. If I was told my wife would die if she ever got pregnant again, I'd happily give up my sex life for her health and safety. I wouldn't even think twice about it. If I knew my children would starve if I had sex again I'd happily renounce that side of my life and get on with loving them. Adults make tough decisions, children whine.
savetheseaFeb 10, 2012
rock climbing equipment and contraception - apples and oranges.
Your points are silly, as a new married couple, you would never have sex with your wife again if pregnancy would cause death even if contraception would solve that??
Have a good day and we can talk when you come back reality. The desire to have sex is not selfish, it is hard-wired and completely natural. It is only the self-righteous that claim otherwise.
I think your statement will get repeated at the dinner table tonight, we all need a good laugh.Comment is buried, click here to see the rest.
geogeerFeb 10, 2012
No contraception is perfect. In fact the failure rates are surprisingly high. I've read that the average woman on contraception will likely get pregnant twice in her life in spite of it. Would I risk my wife's life for an orgasm? It would be like playing russian roulette with her life.
What part of love, honor and cherish involves me risking her life?
Yes it is completely natural, but if she were in a condition that it could kill her, then something is wrong. True love is sacrifice. If that were the sacrifice I'd have to give to live my life with her, I wouldn't think twice. If you don't love someone enough for that, then don't get married, because you really don't love them.
I live in reality. Reality is where people make hard choices and live by them. You should join sometime.
geogeerFeb 10, 2012
Yes one buys insurance to protect them against large unexpected bills arising from unforseen circumstances, i.e. car accident, tripped an broke wrist, came down with cancer, etc...
It is not there to pay for your own personal lifestyle choices.
stevanoskiFeb 10, 2012
well said
dividebyoFeb 10, 2012
ummm, no it wasn't... unless you are as horribly educated about insurance as geo...
heathermgilbertFeb 10, 2012
This!!!
novenatorFeb 10, 2012
HERP!
heathermgilbertFeb 10, 2012
Herp? You might want to see a doctor and get some Valtrex for that...
geogeerFeb 10, 2012
Once again, my argument, logic and total self worth have been devastated by your mighty and irrefutable logic. This board would be nothing without the insightful, cutting, and might I add, undeniably pointed arguments by novenator.
h8f8kesFeb 10, 2012
Once again novy, you show how open minded, tolerant and accepting you are in a very pithy manner.
ganjadude4391Feb 10, 2012
damn, i guess you didnt have any condoms, you should get that checked out
twinklyjesusFeb 12, 2012
dude, it's not a herp, its your nose
savetheseaFeb 10, 2012
Is it OK to pay for a pregnancy and all the costs associated for the next 18+ years? That is a lifestyle choice.
Seems contraception would be much cheaper.Comment is buried, click here to see the rest.
geogeerFeb 10, 2012
Even cheaper would be for you to keep your pants on. If you cannot deal with adult outcomes of adult actions, do not partake in them.
You do not have a right to have sex without outcomes. You may want it, but it is not a right.
You want birth control you should finance it yourself.
savetheseaFeb 10, 2012
So you are saying that pregnancy should not be covered?
Funny how the definition of insurance is quickly changing to meet your political agendas. Contraception goes beyond birth control, many women use it as preventative medicine.Comment is buried, click here to see the rest.
geogeerFeb 10, 2012
Pregnancy is covered because of its high expense in the modern world and deemed necessary for insuring the well being of both mother and child. This has been shown to be true due to the large drop in maternal and infant deaths in the western world.
It is really a cost averaging scheme.
TGRHvWGAFFeb 13, 2012
"You do not have a right to have sex without outcomes."
Thanks for your honesty geo. Wackjobs like you really only care about the endgame - at the end of the day you just think people shouldn't have premarital sex without consequences.
Which if we carry that out to its logical conclusion, that means you want for more abortions to happen. How is is that I as a liberal am more pro-life than you are?
Your opinion here is irrelevant, all you care about is that others adhere to your moral code... which in all likelihood you do a crappy job of yourself.
dividebyoFeb 10, 2012
people also buy insurance for preventative medicine, say... to prevent preganacy for example.
Your comments on this thread make me think you don't really get how insurance works, even at a basic level. When you pay into an insurance plan, you are paying into a huge pool that everyone else who pays into that plan also uses. Quite often, those other people use the insurance for things you may never need (often based on your sex). Does that mean they have no right to those things? I don't think so, just like you would like to use the insurance for things that they may never need, yet still like to have covered.
Once you learn the basics of how insurance policies work, come back to commenting...Comment is buried, click here to see the rest.
geogeerFeb 10, 2012
Is pregnancy an illness?
I understand perfectly how insurance works. It isn't a difficult concept. Insurance is to protect you against things out of your control, not things you intentionally do.
mortventFeb 10, 2012
Actually look up preventative care information in your insurance handbook.
It covers preventative measures as well as emergency treatments.
geogeerFeb 10, 2012
And what illness is this preventing?
mortventFeb 10, 2012
Sexual transmitted diseases, unwanted pregnancy, etc.
So a lot of things, as is the fact the same pills are used as hormone treatments in many women to help with menopause, rough menstruation, and in some cases skin issues.Comment is buried, click here to see the rest.
pc25Feb 11, 2012
sexually transmitted diseases with your wife? Something's not right bud.
TaliscatFeb 11, 2012
Hey PC I'm a girl and I don't have a husband. But I have sex and take precautions, because I don't follow your religion.
So why should my rights be trampled by yours simply because you worship a different deity?
dividebyoFeb 11, 2012
OK Geo, you really are willfully ignorant, that is all it can be. You seem to think you grasp what insurance is for, but you clearly do not. As such, any comments you make about it should be immediately suspect.
Just a few items many insurance plans cover, at least to some extent, that are not directly illnesses;
1) getting your teeth cleaned/checked
2) getting your eyes checked
3) having a physical
All of those things are done as preventative procedures. They are not done because you have any specific illness. They are done to help keep you healthy, so you don't need to use your insurance for illnesses as much.
Insurance does of course, also cover catastrophic situations, but that is not all it is for, like you seem to think.
And what is really sad, is the number of Diggs you are getting for your willfully ignorant comments, and how many buries my comment got for stating the facts of how insurance plans actually work. It is really a shame that so many people out there are being willfully ignorant, and not caring that someone is making blatantly false comments to try and prop up their position.Comment is buried, click here to see the rest.
twinklyjesusFeb 12, 2012
what birth control pills have ever said they were effective against SDTs???
No drug company makes that statement about their product.
johnnysoftwareFeb 10, 2012
The whole basis of insurance is collectivizing costs to prevent ruin from unexpected and possibly rare but very expensive disasters.
Getting pregnant when you do not want to be and are not ready to be is a bit of a big disaster.
Why should everyone on a group insurance policy pay for the *insurer's mistake* for _not_ paying for birth prevention pills or devices every time a fecund chick gets knocked up by accident?
You don't think pregnancy costs money???Comment is buried, click here to see the rest.
pc25Feb 10, 2012
pay for your own contraception.
dividebyoFeb 10, 2012
then pay for your all of your own [insert a sex specific drug, treatment, whatever here]. I don't want my insurance money to go to pay for anything you want.Comment is buried, click here to see the rest.
geogeerFeb 10, 2012
"The whole basis of insurance is collectivizing costs to prevent ruin from unexpected and possibly rare but very expensive disasters."
As far as I know getting having sex means it is unexpected. You want someone else to pay for your lifestyle.
geogeerFeb 10, 2012
*not unexpected....
dang short edit time
dividebyoFeb 10, 2012
you need to edit that once more... that would be; having UNPROTECTED sex means it is unexpected. If you are on birth control, and have sex, then a pregnancy does become unexpected (and yes, I know it can happen anyway).
"As far as I know getting having sex means it is [*not]unexpected. You want someone else to pay for your lifestyle."
Just to make sure, are you saying that no one should have sex unless they want children? That sounds like a religious belief I have heard of. Sorry, that religous belief is as much a lifestyle choice as having protected sex, and not expecting to get pregnant is.
You are telling others to live by your lifestyle choice at that point, and sorry, but I'm not willing to do that.
If it is against your religion to use birth control, that is your religious right, but it should be everyone's right to have access to birth control, if they want it. In other words, keep your religion out of my private life... I will say, it does almost feel like I'm not allowing for the opposite (keep my private life out of your religion), and that is probably the crux of the whole issue, but my feelings are that personal freedom trumps religious freedom in this case, since those that don't want to use birth control are not being forced to use it, yet those that want it, are potentially being restricted from it.
If it is mandated that insurance includes covering birth control, then it doesn't matter who you are, if you are offering insurance, and meet the other requirements to be under the same laws as other employers as to coverage, you have to offer it.Comment is buried, click here to see the rest.
geogeerFeb 10, 2012
Given the failure rate of birth control, pregnancy should never be unexpected.
Nobody should have sex unless they are open to a child resulting from that union. That is only a logical statement.
Where do any of my statements prevent people from access to birth control? There are some birth controls that I would argue should be illegal because they are abortificients, but that is a different argument.
And once again birth control is only necessary for people to live out a certain lifestyle. What right does the government have in mandating coverage for lifestyle? It is only your choices that make it "necessary." It is in not a medically necessary item and it cures no disease. It is really something that should be an elective part of a health plan at most.
netantFeb 10, 2012
1) If you insist on your employer pay for ALL your contraception costs, don't work for the Catholic church! "Separation of Church and State" determines that the Catholic church does not have to cooperate in violating their religious beliefs.
2) "If it is mandated that insurance includes covering birth control, [...]"
THAT only falls into the TRAP that single-payer or gov't subsidized and regulated health insurance VIOLATES people's right to (religious) self-determination.
The only reason paying/providing birth control is being MANDATED is there is a political faction of feminists that believe that free access to birth control is a RIGHT, and the gov't should "stick it" to the Catholic church, regardless of the gov't CONSTITUTIONAL responsibilities. Its the case of a NON-CONSTITUTIONALLY PROTECTED group dictating to a RELIGIOUS group how it can practice its beliefs!
THIS argument merely uses the gov't and the law to CROWBAR the mob's prerogatives OVER the church's RIGHT to follow its beliefs without gov't interference! The gov't does not have the right to tell a church, "you have your beliefs, but I can tell you to break them whenever the majority says its convenient".
TGRHvWGAFFeb 13, 2012
I do think that. It doesn't make me a communist, just a realist. And it makes you someone who lives in a dream world where everyone has the money to do whatever they want. Those of us who don't recognize that this is the right thing to do because we care about those who make less than $20k a year *and* we care about the unwanted unborn. Only a conservative wacko would think that making birth control more readily available to those least capable of raising a child is a good thing. Kiss my ass nutjob.
phoenixtxFeb 10, 2012
http://lashawnbarber.com/archives/2011/11/08/ryans-song/#more-10452
pc25Feb 10, 2012
that's a powerful story
bookantFeb 10, 2012
Look at the little Digg conservatives completely unfamiliar with the concept of "insurance plans."
davidnivenFeb 10, 2012
Look at the little Digg liberal babies completely unfamiliar with the concept of the free market and private ownership. Not really their fault considering their admiration for communism.
mortventFeb 10, 2012
There is no free market anywhere, it's all regulated
Or do you want to not have things like that USDA stamp on your meats, know your kid's toys are non-toxic, etc..
It's the same for workers, things like OSHA and minimum wage.. and now health care laws.Comment is buried, click here to see the rest.
pc25Feb 10, 2012
if I find merchandise that I want cheaper at another store I buy it there. That's a free market.
mortventFeb 10, 2012
Free market is a lot more than price, it means no regulations on quality or safety either.
It means companies can push what ever they want to the market regardless of how well made it is.
Free market would mean no car maker would need to have seat belts, kids toys can contain lead, paint could contain lead as well, asbestos insulation would still be used because it's cheaper...Comment is buried, click here to see the rest.
pc25Feb 10, 2012
Free market - I can shop my services to the highest bidder in terms of salary/benefits. Anytime you change a job you have done just that.
mortventFeb 10, 2012
Well this is a regulated market, so if you want to operate in it as a business you obey the regulations.
Otherwise go to another market.
pc25Feb 10, 2012
regulation = law
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;
bookantFeb 10, 2012
That's got to be one of the most idiotic invocations of the establishment clause I've even seen.
Can churches commit murder? What if their theology includes human sacrifice? What about native religions and peyote?
The establishment clause is NOT a blanket pass that exempts the religious from all other laws on all other subjects. Not EVEN if they invoke "religious belief." Laws against killing, drug use - and yes, health insurance plans - do not violate it.Comment is buried, click here to see the rest.
pc25Feb 10, 2012
to bad it's in your way.........
atomheartmotherFeb 10, 2012
book, The Supreme Court has always allowed a great deal of leeway in terms of the free exercise of religion, as it's guaranteed by the constitution.
It has drawn the line, however (as in the case of Polygamy), by ruling that religious freedom could not justify (otherwise) criminal activity. And last time I checked, presidential directives don't fit that bill.
So your murder, sacrifice and drug use analogies don't pass muster.
anomaly100Feb 10, 2012
Free market = lawless market
stevanoskiFeb 10, 2012
Got a cite that shows where regulation has ever led to wealth?
mortventFeb 10, 2012
Wall street is a regulated market..
Cars are regulated with performance and safety
food is regulated with safety and humane laws (animal butchering)
etc... there is nothing on the market in the Us and most of the world that is not regulated in some fashionComment is buried, click here to see the rest.
stevanoskiFeb 10, 2012
Mort, I believe regulations strangle people look at those wanting to improve their driveways. The govt. comes in and tells them they have altered a wetland (because they wanted to pave it?).
I don't want to put words in your mouth but I think you believe govt. is your friend kind of a benevolent Big Brother.
I believe it is a very dangerous ally and a totally ruthless adversary.
dividebyoFeb 10, 2012
so, unless something leads to wealth, it should be abolished?
I personally don't care if having regulations that protect the general public - keeping those in business with little or no morals (who think that if something doesn't lead to making them more money, no matter the cost to others) from killing everyone, costs someone some profits. I would much rather keep humans alive and those people not have quite as much wealth.Comment is buried, click here to see the rest.
mortventFeb 10, 2012
No regulation is worse than too much, it gives tyranny to the many/minority
there has to be a balance, and basic preventative measures should be covered by health care insurance much like cleaning your teeth and yearly checkups.
vitriolandangstFeb 10, 2012
davidNiven is familiar with a lot of concepts he doesn't really get, but that doesn't stop him from repeating the same nonsense over and over and over again.
Wanting companies to follow RULES in a Capitalist Society is not Communism.
We were all better off under Mercantilism it seems, anyway.Comment is buried, click here to see the rest.
twinklyjesusFeb 12, 2012
translation: "I can't defeat their logic on the topic at hand, so here, I will insult and attempt to belittle one of their group, in hopes of making them look less ... smarter...than. me."
dividebyoFeb 10, 2012
Look at davidniven, showing us his lack of familiarity with the concepts of insurance plans, just to make bookant's point...
pc25Feb 10, 2012
spin it any way you want kid Obama got his ass kicked.........
Angry_MuppetFeb 11, 2012
Actually in this case I think Obama realized the fact he was dangerously close to stomping on the principal of religious freedom.
pc25Feb 11, 2012
which i why I said he got his butt kicked. He knew that and this would wind up in the Supreme Court if he pushed it.
TGRHvWGAFFeb 13, 2012
I can't say what thought process went on behind the scenes, and there may well have been some errors in judgment here. But there's one end result that's happening whether or not anyone predicted it: Conservatives are inadvertently throwing their lot in with the losing side on social issue that was decided decades ago. It's exposing the GOP and the tea party in particular as social conservatives in fiscal conservatives' clothing.
geogeerFeb 10, 2012
Why should I pay for your lifestyle choices. If I want to go skiing I don't think anybody will pay for my helmet. Your actions, your money.
bookantFeb 10, 2012
But if you break your leg skiing the company insurance plan will cover your treatment.
COMMUNISM!!11! UR MAKING ME PAY 4 UR LIFESTYLE!!!
geogeerFeb 10, 2012
Is breaking one's leg the fundamental purpose of skiing? No. Is begetting new life the fundamental purpose of sex? Yes.
Is a broken leg a natural intended state for a person to be in? No. Is being pregnant a natural state to be in? Yes.
And if you get pregnant your insurance will help cover ultrasounds, delivery etc...
bookantFeb 10, 2012
"Is a broken leg a natural intended state for a person to be in?"
So that's the standard now?
Is having an appendix a natural intended state for a person to be in? Having tonsils? Wisdom teeth? God put 'em there, right? No more coverage for surgeries to remove any of those things.
Is being artificially kept alive in an incubator a natural intended state for a person to be in? Nope. No coverage for neonatal ICUs or extreme measures to keep premies alive. God sent 'em out early for a reason, right?
"Is being pregnant a natural state to be in? Yes."
So you're suggesting women be kept "barefoot and pregnant" at all times then. Impregnation MUST occur as soon as medically possible at puberty and then again immediately after the birth of each previous child, no individual choice allowed, right?
Unless, of course, NOT being pregnant is ALSO a natural state to be in. In which case there's no reason to pretend there's anything wrong with someone making some informed and responsible choices about WHEN to be in each of those TWO natrual states.
More importantly, there's nothing letting you off the hook from being a big fat f**king hypocrit when it comes to many other "lifestyle choices" we all pay for in group insurance plans, of which skiing (and for that matter ANY sport/recreation related injuries) are only the tip of the iceberg.Comment is buried, click here to see the rest.
geogeerFeb 10, 2012
Having functional appendix, tonsils, wisdom teeth is a natural state. If someone wanted to remove a fully functioning appendix for no reason I would not expect insurance to cover that.
A child in an incubator is there because they either have a medical problem or were born prematurely, i.e. they are not in the environment nature designed for them to be in at this stage of life, thus we are creating the most suitable environment for them that we can.
You have every choice about pregnancy. You never have to have sex, that is your personal choice. If you want to use birth control that is your choice as well, go and buy it. If you want to keep within the teachings of the church you are allowed to use natural family planning to avoid becoming pregnant for grave reasons.
You are correct not being pregnant is also a natural state that is why it is acceptable to be either pregnant or not. Informed and responsible choices will mean very different things to the two of us.
I am not being hypocritical on this issue. I have made sound and logical arguments. If the purpose of sex is the propagation of the species, then it is you that is fundamentally abusing the act.
If I intentionally slam my car into a lamp post I cannot collect insurance for it. I willed it to happen. If it could be shown that a person intentionally broke their leg while skiing I would have no problem with refusing them coverage under insurance for that. Risk does not mean intent. Buying birth control is intent.
Angry_MuppetFeb 11, 2012
Face it douche, you got your ass handed to ya.
mortventFeb 11, 2012
actually sex is about more than procreation.
You believe it is just for creating babies, based on your religion. Others see it as way to be closer to a lover, mate.
Or simply a way to kill boredom.
geogeerFeb 11, 2012
True, it does have a dual purpose. One is procreation, the other is to strengthen the bond between the couple. This is precisely why both aspect must be integrally maintained in the act. It would be just as wrong to have sex with someone you didn't care for, for the sole purpose of having a child.
I merely simplified it, because the other side of the argument is generally understood.
mortventFeb 11, 2012
Nope, you can do one without the other.
Many couples want the bond tighter but are not ready or able to bring a child into the world. So why should they be denied the coverage because you believe they should not?Comment is buried, click here to see the rest.
TGRHvWGAFFeb 13, 2012
Begetting new life is the fundamental purpose of sex only if you're a social conservative who subscribes to the Christian definition. For the rest of us, an in particular those of us who benefit the most from having ready access to standard and emergency contraception, the fundamental purpose is a bit more carnal.
You can noot like that all you want, but the much more important question becomes: "Which is more important to you, reducing abortions are imposing your moral code on others?"Comment is buried, click here to see the rest.
geogeerFeb 13, 2012
Actually, nature says the fundamental purpose of sex is procreation.
Considering that over 50% of abortions are conducted by those contracepting, I don't think your argument holds water.
It is not imposing my moral code on other by my saying I shouldn't have to pay for your (a)moral decision.
TGRHvWGAFFeb 13, 2012
Man is not the only species on the planet that has sex for the helluvit.
Please cite the source for your statistic. I highly question that conclusion, unless of course "contracepting" includes "I used a condom once".
And yes. An employer telling me what I can and can't do with my compensation, which includes health care, based on said employer's beliefs is absolutely a case of imposing one moral code on another.
You conservatives claim to love liberty and freedom, but you only really want them for yourselves and people like you. When it comes to liberty and freedom for someone else you can't be bothered.
brewbeauFeb 10, 2012
You keep making this stupid point. Most illnesses are either caused by, or exacerbated by, your personal choices. Most are covered by your insurance. Most people, even Catholics, use contraception when having sex when they don't want a child and would like to see that covered by their health insurance. The only reason this is an issue at all is because it involves <gasp> SEX! If a religious institution decided their health insurance plans wouldn't cover blood pressure meds because of some s**t in the bible, they'd be laughed out of town.Comment is buried, click here to see the rest.
geogeerFeb 10, 2012
Insurance is not meant to cover intended actions. Any illness is deemed to not be the desired outcome of an action. If I intentionally took a hammer and broke my finger I would actually expect the insurance not to pay for it, because I intentionally created the injury for the sole purpose of costing the insurance company money. That would normally be referred to as insurance fraud, as insurance is there to protect against the accidental.
I don't care if every Catholic was using birth control. That would still not justify it being mandated to be covered by health care.
brewbeauFeb 10, 2012
That still doesn't make any sense. Breaking your finger with a hammer does you no good. Sex is good for you and good for you to do it often. Providing affordable contraception is preventive care, both in terms of health and preventing unintended pregnancies which most health insurance providers, as well as the payers, would like to avoid.Comment is buried, click here to see the rest.
geogeerFeb 10, 2012
Fresh veggies are good for you as well, should the government give you free veggies? Vacations are good for you. Should the government pay for your vacations?
If I'm one of those people who gets off on pain, a broken finger might just be the trick to do me for a month. I could post it on youtube for my 15 minutes of fame.
And they are not unintended pregnancies, they may be undesired, but if the natural outcome of sex is children you cannot claim that they are unintended. It is like saying drinking beer has the unintended outcome of having to go pee. It may be undesired (especially in a busy bar), but as it is the obvious outcome you cannot logically claim unintended.
TGRHvWGAFFeb 13, 2012
Once again, the 50's called. They want their morals back. For the rest of us, sex is a fun way to spend some time with a member of the opposite sex. Or the same sex. Or several members of the opposite sex, or whatever else works so long as it's between (or among) consenting adults. I'm not here to judge.
The fact is, those who engage in unprotected sex who aren't doing so because they want to have a kid are at a high risk of finding themselves in a situation where a woman's pregnant and she didn't want to be. That may see stupid to you, as it does to most of us, but for someone who grew up without decent parenting and sex ed (remember, that's that thing we liberals are all for but gets conservatives' panties in a wad?) it's not uncommon. Those are the people who can in fact have unintended pregnancies, and those are the people who are most likely to have an abortion.
Bottom line: If you're pro-life you're pro-contraception. Period.Comment is buried, click here to see the rest.
mortventFeb 10, 2012
Why should a person be denied coverage because of your lifestyle choices?
Religion is a lifestyle choice.
geogeerFeb 10, 2012
Because their lifestyle is forcing me to pay for their lifestyle, while my lifestyle does not force them to do anything.
mortventFeb 10, 2012
And yous is denying them preventive care and tools that can prevent you form paying more in the long term in insurance premiums for pregnancy and/or federal/state aid to the family that isn't ready or able to handle the costs for raising a child.Comment is buried, click here to see the rest.
geogeerFeb 10, 2012
Is my lifestyle forcing them to have sex? Is my lifestyle preventing them from buying their own birth control?
bookantFeb 10, 2012
"Religion is a lifestyle choice."
As is *having* children.
By geo's arguments we can also deny coverage to pregnant women for prenatal care, not the mention the delivery itself, and deny the child itself any coverage on the group plan. That way no one is being forced to pay for the lifestyle of the couple that make a *choice* to have a child.Comment is buried, click here to see the rest.
geogeerFeb 10, 2012
Hey, if you think that will build a better society go for it. However, it has been shown by the low maternal and infant mortality rates in the western world, that providing these services is of benefit to the nation.
bookantFeb 10, 2012
Hey, keep moving those goalposts. Anything to rationalize your irrational position.
geogeerFeb 10, 2012
Nothing being rationalized. Society has existed for the majority of history without doctors delivering babies and prenatal services etc. I don't know people who'd pay into a system that didn't provide coverage for their whole family, but if you believe that will truly make for a more just and loving society go for it. Introduce that bill and get it voted into law.
Eventually people will organize themselves into groups to take care of each other in times of need and we'll start the whole insurance concept over again.
fitzal77Feb 10, 2012
You kinda avoided the issue. You said that "Insurance is not meant to cover intended actions." You admit that "You have every choice about pregnancy," indicating that becoming pregnant is an intended action. You then defend the coverage of prenatal care by saying that "providing these services is of benefit to the nation." You are contradicting yourself by simultaneously saying that insurance shouldn't cover intended actions and that intended pregnancy should be covered. Surely you see this.Comment is buried, click here to see the rest.
geogeerFeb 10, 2012
Pregnancy is covered because there is a health threat to the mother and the child. A normal pregnancy will leave a healthy (but exhausted) mother with a healthy baby. Thus it is completely permissible to not have the country pay for this coverage.
However, we also know that complication in pregnancy can threaten one or both lives. Thus it has been deemed prudent to provide services to all women as it is very difficult to determine which ones will have difficulties.
The normative is for there to be no problem, however since society wishes to reduce maternal and infant deaths we have chosen to extend coverage. For my wife, there has not really been any need for her to deliver in the hospital or have any pre-natal inspections because there have been no problems. However, this is considered preventative care for the mothers and children.
What illness is being prevented by birth control?
fitzal77Feb 11, 2012
Birth Control is used as a treatment for many severe conditions, including PCOS. I guess you didn't see one of my earlier replies to you, which had among it:
Birth control pills are known to reduce pain from cramps, maintain iron levels, reduce risk of certain types of cancer, help against PMS symptoms, prevent acne, prevent cysts and abnormal growths, and other wonderful things. It's practically a miracle drug for women, except that it's not even a drug.Comment is buried, click here to see the rest.
geogeerFeb 13, 2012
It also has serious side effects like increased rates of osteoporosis and cancer. Make sure the cure is not worse than the illness.
fitzal77Feb 14, 2012
Everything has side effects, but that's not your call to make. Doctors prescribe it for medical purposes, there's lots of research to back up its benefits, and it's approved by the FDA.
You asked what illness it prevents, and I told you. You're grasping at straws now, and I don't even know why you're so strongly opposed to health insurance covering birth control.
netantFeb 10, 2012
Because the Constutition of the United States recognizes the doctine "Separation of Church and State". The Constitution protects the lifestyle choice when its religion.
The person working for the church is not denied coverage because of the Church. The person does not get FREE access to contraceptive coverage BECAUSE the law cannot compel the Church to pay or participate in contraceptive coverage. If the employee doesn't like that, DON'T WORK for the Church!
fitzal77Feb 10, 2012
Birth control is meant for regulating hormones and is incredibly unfortunately named. Millions of women have conditions, like Polycystic Ovary Syndrome, which cause abnormal hormonal balance. The treatment for this, as you might have guessed, is taking a daily hormone pill (known as birth control). Due to religious perception of "The Pill," and the common view that birth control leads to promiscuity, The Pill's stigma has led many insurance companies and pharmacists to deny coverage of (or deny entirely, in the case of pharmacists) birth control to women. This is a slap in the face when Viagra is widely fully covered and available.
Birth control pills are known to reduce pain from cramps, maintain iron levels, reduce risk of certain types of cancer, help against PMS symptoms, prevent acne, prevent cysts and abnormal growths, and other wonderful things. It's practically a miracle drug for women, except that it's not even a drug.
I'll rephrase your question so it's not so stupid: Why should insurance cover birth control pills? Because it's Health Insurance and should cover prescription drugs that make you healthy. Which leads to my question: Why are you so strongly opposed to letting women have access to something that helps maintain their health?Comment is buried, click here to see the rest.
FenderStratocasterFeb 10, 2012
You can go to your pharmacy, to Planned Parenthood, or keep your legs together. Contraceptives are very widely available.
heathermgilbertFeb 10, 2012
You know the libs HATE personal responsibility. They want everyone else to pay for their poor choices.
novenatorFeb 10, 2012
You're not the brightest cookie on the tree, are you?
pc25Feb 10, 2012
I wouldn't talk Odd Ball
h8f8kesFeb 10, 2012
She is smart enough to figure you out novy.
heathermgilbertFeb 10, 2012
"cookie" - should I consider that a "sexist" remark??? Or cry "MISOGYNY" like you libs do??? LMAO!
atomheartmotherFeb 10, 2012
Didn't you get the memo? Being sexist and homophobic's just fine if you're Progressive.
It's part of being "reasonable".
drmangrumFeb 10, 2012
I think you should.
Just one more items on Novy's Big List of Hypocritical Statements.
heathermgilbertFeb 10, 2012
It's OK - we all know Novy is a xenophobe
slang4catFeb 10, 2012
Personal insults are the "go-to" ammunition for liberals.
twinklyjesusFeb 12, 2012
Only Novenazi would think that cookies come from trees...
bookantFeb 10, 2012
. . . and right here in two short comments we see the real agenda of the relgious right laid bare. Control of women. Mysogyny.
"keep your legs together"
Translation - subjegate yourself to my puritanical religious beliefs about sexuality, whether you share my religion or not. And why "keep your legs together"? Why not "keep your dick in your pants"? Because of course it's only "fallen" WOMEN who need to be penalized for being human and having a healthy sexuality. Men are whole different story. So much so that we puritans don't even have a problem with our health plans covering Viagra just to be sure that every man who wants to can GET IT UP and GET DOWN!
Doesn't matter how many millions of MARRIED couples might use birth control because they don't want kids and/or any more kids than they already have. Doesn't matter that the pill is often prescribed for OTHER medical reasons and not just contraception. Any sacrifice necessary to stick it to those JEZEBELS! who might have premarital sex is a-ok.
"You know the libs HATE personal responsibility. They want everyone else to pay for their poor choices."
Personal responsibility like responsible family planning? Like taking care NOT to get pregnant if you're not prepared to have a child? What choices? That's exactly what you assh**es are trying to DENY women right now. You want the Church - in it's NOT exclusively religious role as a very large employer of millions of people, not all of whom are Catholic - to make that choice FOR it's employees.
Are you suggesting, then, that the Church take "personal responsiblity" for ITS "choices"? They gonna pay child support for every unwanted child their employees have? Oh, right, I forgot - "personal responsibility" is just for the little guy. Everyone else will pay for the CHURCH'S poor choices in not providing a comprehensive health plan, and there a f**king peep from any of you about THEIR pesonal responsibility.Comment is buried, click here to see the rest.
atomheartmotherFeb 10, 2012
"That's exactly what you assh**es are trying to DENY women right now."
That's absolute horses**t. ANYONE can obtain birth control at a multitude of locations in this country, often for free and at taxpayer expense.
bookantFeb 10, 2012
Oh, so you're saying that the *taxpayers* should have to pay to support, subsidize and promote the anti-woman and puritanical policies of a few religions.
I'm sorry, I thought you thought we were Taxed Enough Already? I thought we were supposed to be talking about "personal responsiblity?" But exactly as I said, that's just for the little guy, right. If the Church wants to pass off *its* responsibilities to the taxpayers, no problem!Comment is buried, click here to see the rest.
atomheartmotherFeb 10, 2012
Actually it's you that are of the mindset that taxpayers ought to have to fund the consequences of peoples' lifestyle choices, so don't put words in my mouth. I simply pointed out that no one's "denying" them anything that isn't readily available. It's not like obtaining birth control is a hardship these days.
But if it were up to me the taxpayers wouldn't have to fund any of this s**t...don't want the expense of a kid, then pay for your own contraception or don't f**k.
It's called personal responsibility; a term I'm aware means nothing to you.
bookantFeb 10, 2012
" . . a term I'm aware means nothing to you."
You don't know the first f**king thing about me. I suppose that's par for the course for you, since from what I've seen you don't know the first f**king thing about anything.
I've already made myself perfectly clear in my assessment of the RWNJ talking point "personal responsiblity" - something to be invoked any time we want to make sticking it to the little guy or trying to force our beliefs on others sound noble, and conveniently ignored any time it might be applied to one of our own.
And the response from you was textbook AHM - you have nothing so you go straight to baseless personal attacks instead.
To directly quote *you,* yesterday I believe it was:
Get f**ked.Comment is buried, click here to see the rest.
atomheartmotherFeb 10, 2012
"you have nothing so you go straight to baseless personal attacks instead."
Actually what you call the "personal attack" was the last thing I wrote. Preceding that was the part where I pointed out that your arguments are terrible.
But if you don't like it when someone points out that you don't care about personal responsibility, try typing some words which might lead people to conclude otherwise.
Angry_MuppetFeb 11, 2012
Out of curiosity Anomaly, what's you take on allowing a person of middle eastern origin to wear their prescribed garments in violation of school dress codes or whilst having their photograph taken for identity purposes?
Our nation has a founding principal of religious freedom. That sword cuts both ways.
atomheartmotherFeb 11, 2012
You're asking her to formulate a thought which isn't simply a mindless parroting of the bile the geniuses at Media Matters pinched out today while rolling joints with paper from the constitution.
I'm not saying it's a completely impossible request, but it's close.
samthurstonFeb 13, 2012
"Our nation has a founding principal of religious freedom. That sword cuts both ways."
Religious freedom is a funny thing. See, I am not associated with a church, so my religious freedoms are bound by existing law and whatever *established* religion has carved out for me that MAY be applicable to my own beliefs.
I look at it as a matter of degrees of rationality. We don't permit people to take drugs on the basis of religion *unless* they are of certain ethnic heritages (seriously). That is wrong on so many levels I can't wrap my head around it.
If someone's church demanded that they kill human beings as sacrifices, we would not permit it. Human rights trump religious freedoms.
By this same token, I think christian scientists shouldn't be allowed to deny their minor children potentially life-saving medical care. I think that where religious law overlaps employment law, employment law should win (especially when talking about large secular institutions that just so happen to be operated by the church such as hospitals.)
In our system, employers are where most people get their healthcare. That's a terrible system, but a lot of people like it. So long as this is the case, I don't think it makes much sense to let a person deny another person medical services because of what they believe. I don't really see how you can make a claim that it makes sense.
I mean otherwise what you have is Christian Sharia which is just as bad as Islamic Sharia.
I don't much see how someone wearing a headscarf infringes on anyone else's rights, so that seems just fine to me.
corydorningFeb 11, 2012
This is why the left and right shenanigans piss me off. This is nothing but the government playing games with the people.
Obama puts out a ridiculous 'rule'. The right freaks out and screams war on religion. Obama compromises. The right says it isn't good enough and that its 'too little, too late'.
WTF is wrong with this picture. This is why there is more and more dissatisfaction with government. No matter what one side does, its never right. I don't believe you should always compromise, but when you do 'give in' to the other side, can the other side just say 'thanks'? FOL!
rockyoumonkeysFeb 10, 2012
This crap disgusts me. There should be no accommodation. I'm tired of these religious groups operating above the law. It's appalling that in the 21st century we're still ruled by a bunch of cults.Comment is buried, click here to see the rest.
mortventFeb 10, 2012
yeah next thing you know they will want an exemption from OSHA laws cause faith is all they need to keep workers safe
laurahoustonFeb 10, 2012
great points and I agree.
However opt out and inform employees, is a pretty clever way to inform the woman who use birth control. .
They will know exactly who took it away from them and who will make them pay hundreds of dollars a year out of pocket.Comment is buried, click here to see the rest.
pc25Feb 10, 2012
TFB sock puppet.
atomheartmotherFeb 10, 2012
"I'm tired of these religious groups operating above the law. "
Yeah...the government should be able to mandate whatever it wants and require you to do whatever it wants, right?
f**k the constitution.
rockyoumonkeysFeb 10, 2012
"Whatever it wants"? They aren't being unreasonable about THIS. This is a case of the church jamming its fingers in its ears and shouting I DON'T WANNA!!!!Comment is buried, click here to see the rest.
atomheartmotherFeb 10, 2012
So that's the standard in terms of deciding what the government can or cannot mandate...not the constitution, but what you find "reasonable"?
rockyoumonkeysFeb 10, 2012
Constitution is outdated. Anything that gives all that power and all those tax exemptions to a CULT needs to be fixed. Stop using it as a defense for deplorable practices. It was written by people who thought it was pretty neat to own other people.Comment is buried, click here to see the rest.
atomheartmotherFeb 10, 2012
Oh of course the constitution's outdated...we should simply allow Washington to govern our lives the way it sees fit, without any silly constraints on its power.
ultimisFeb 10, 2012
"Constitution is outdated"
The constitution can be amended. Thus it can never be outdated. If the people feel the need to give the federal government *more* power they can amend the constitution. It takes 3/4ths of the states and 2/3rds of congress to pass a amendment, but changing the fundamental framework of this country is *supposed* to be hard.
If what they want to do is "reasonable" they can convince enough people and amend the constitution. Else they can f**k off.
johnnysoftwareFeb 10, 2012
I read your post too fast and at first missed that you said, "in its ears".
Whew, am I ever relieved.
geogeerFeb 10, 2012
Why should I be forced to pay for your lifestyle choices?
rockyoumonkeysFeb 10, 2012
Because we're forced to pay for yours. Your church's tax exemptions basically come out of my pocket.
geogeerFeb 10, 2012
It gets an exemption because it is a charity. If you wish to remove all charities from a tax exempt status because you think it would better serve your country that would be fine. The only problem is that you have to have a profit to pay taxes. Most churches do not make a profit. With the exception of a small rainy day fund most save little to nothing from year to year.
Besides you are not actually paying anything towards it.
TGRHvWGAFFeb 10, 2012
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Holy_Land_Experience
...because nothing says "charity" like a $5 Goliath burger.
rockyoumonkeysFeb 10, 2012
"Most churches do not make a profit."
How hilarious.
mortventFeb 10, 2012
Actually churches are the biggest money making businesses in the world..
mortventFeb 10, 2012
why should your lifestyle choices affect the laws of a nation?
Or result in you getting an exemption from them?
stevanoskiFeb 10, 2012
Mort, the Constitution trumps any laws of a nation concerning articles listed with in it. Free practice of religion.
mortventFeb 10, 2012
You are not forbidden to practice, you still have choice and ability.
But a company, not an individual can not have a religion. It's a business and must abide by rules and regulations to operate.
Or should religion owned hospitals be allowed to ignore rules on patient rights as well because of the faith of the people operating it? Such as a cultist church run clinic not providing medication to it's patients because it's against their beliefs, even if it's a non-profit/free clinic that most have to turn to due to costs?Comment is buried, click here to see the rest.
stevanoskiFeb 10, 2012
You make a good point re: patient rights, but to give an example that you might approve as appropriate.
At the VA hospital my dad was on a hospice wing. When we asked that his "Living Will" be followed they refused saying, we will not just let him die. So a govt. hospital can completely disregard a patients rights to a dignified death.
mortventFeb 10, 2012
What you should have done was get the hospital manager on the floor. and if that failed called up the next in the chain of command.
The VA has always been mandated to follow the patient's desires and living wills, what you got was the equivalent of a Catholic business owner refusing to allow an employee to get the preventative care clause that covers birth control...Comment is buried, click here to see the rest.
geogeerFeb 10, 2012
Why should the laws of the nation force me to act against my conscience - especially to promote the lifestyle of others?
pinkfish411Feb 10, 2012
They're not operating above the law. Freedom of conscience is one of the core principles of the political philosophy that stands behind American law. Start chipping away at it and we become no better than Soviet Russia.
rockyoumonkeysFeb 10, 2012
I don't give a crap about the church's right to deny basic care to women. I'm just saying that if they're going to do that, they shouldn't be entitled to all those tax exemptions.Comment is buried, click here to see the rest.
pc25Feb 10, 2012
oh the emotional histrionic hyperbole.
geogeerFeb 10, 2012
How is this a denial of basic care? What illness is birth control preventing?
twinklyjesusFeb 12, 2012
Chronic belly swell syndrome
heathermgilbertFeb 10, 2012
That's what the left wants us to become - Soviet Russia.
mortventFeb 10, 2012
religion is a life choice, it should not be used a basis to affect the laws of a nation
pc25Feb 10, 2012
endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable human rights. The Declaration of Independence, the cornerstone of the US Constitution. All freedoms in this country were given birth to from that one line.
BTW contraception is a life choice.
mortventFeb 10, 2012
It's preventative care from diseases and unwanted pregnancy. It shows them making responsible decisions rather than relying on faith.
twinklyjesusFeb 12, 2012
No it isn't.
No birth control marketed claims to prevent or protect from STDs. They state emphatically they do not prevent disease communication.
mortventFeb 12, 2012
Condoms are birth control.
rockyoumonkeysFeb 10, 2012
Yes, a life choice that the church wants to prevent women from being able to make.
And I've said elsewhere how I feel about ancient documents written by slave owners.Comment is buried, click here to see the rest.
pinkfish411Feb 10, 2012
Religion isn't just some "life choice." For many, it can't really be classified as a "choice" at all. It's a conviction about what is true and what is right. In other words, it's a matter of conscience, not will. That's why protecting the free exercise of religion is so important. The glory of a liberal democracy like America is that we provide a free space for people to carry out their perceived duties to God, to their fellow human beings, and to their perception of truth and goodness. Like I said, if we start placing excessive restrictions on the exercise of conscience, we basically become Soviet Russia, which attempted to police what convictions its citizens were allowed to express.
It's so sad that you left-wing fundamentalists whine and cry about a church "controlling" women by not paying for their birth control pills, but when the government tries to control what a religious institution can do with its money and what kinds of contracts it can freely enter into with other people, you cheer the government on. How pathetic.
mlw4428Feb 10, 2012
***WARNING***
THIS THREAD CONTAINS DIGG PATRIOT CIRCLE JERKS. ANY INTELLIGENT OR LIBERAL OPINION WILL BE BURIED INSTANTLY.
***WARNING***
laborerFeb 10, 2012
Lol.
I see it differently. Every thread I comment on is run by the LIBERAL STRIKE FORCE.
Im happy to see my comments in the negative single digits after the LSF gets through with me.
mlw4428Feb 10, 2012
See the key difference between the Digg Patriots and your so-called "LSF" is that every conservative on here declares Digg to be Liberal leaning. So if the MAJORITY is liberal-leaning, as you people claim, then there is NO need for this so-called LSF.
The Digg Patriots exist to try and FORCE their opinions into the view of a community who, in conservative's opinions, wouldn't ever agree to their views anyways.
That is why it's always annoying to see claims of s**t like LSF...there isn't a need.Comment is buried, click here to see the rest.
laborerFeb 10, 2012
Because I never get buried by 2 or 3 guys and their 11 accounts. /s
'A liberals brain is a complex of paradoxical, Escher-esque tubes that spout nothing but gas and hypocrisy.'
isaac7719Feb 11, 2012
Ad hominems aside, can you prove in any way that you're the target of fraudulent sock puppet victimization? There is ample proof of "Digg Patriots" gaming the system, indeed there have been many articles across many news outlets regarding them, but do you have anything to support your "LSF" allegations beyond being generally butthurt at getting dugg down?Comment is buried, click here to see the rest.
odkinFeb 10, 2012
"Intelligent or liberal" being mutually exclusive, of course.
MusicManGPFeb 10, 2012
Derp.
pc25Feb 11, 2012
a warning posted by a member of the liberal Circle of Jerks. lol
anglosaxongalFeb 11, 2012
Let us make a business policy and put it into the public eyes: WE ARE NOT CATHOLICS AND CANNOT SERVE YOU LIKE THEY WILL NOT SERVE YOU IF YOU DO NOT SERVE THEIR SADISTS ORGANIZATION. WoW....ya'll make a LOT of money!
citizenmeFeb 10, 2012
Seems like a win win move.
craig1958Feb 10, 2012
It is, but it is just a little too subtle to be understood by most people. These employees will get their health care, but the employers get to avoid the responsibility of directly providing it (even though they are still being required to pay for it). The best part is that it's just a little too complex to be turned into a 30 second sound bite.Comment is buried, click here to see the rest.
pc25Feb 11, 2012
The Bishops have not YET AGREED to this, neither have the details of whom pays for what been worked out. This is not over. The Bishops have categorically stated that they want to see the particulars.Comment is buried, click here to see the rest.
craig1958Feb 11, 2012
At the end of the day, they will follow the law. This just gives them a way to pretend they are not providing these services and claim some type of small "victory." This is like dealing with a little kid, you have to let them think they have gotten their way sometimes.Comment is buried, click here to see the rest.
pc25Feb 11, 2012
That's not what the Bishops said. It''s not over. Do not for a nano-second believe that this intrusion by the state into doctrines held sacred by church or churches ha gone unnoticed by millions. A huge miscalculation by the Obama administration. This is going to cost him votes.Comment is buried, click here to see the rest.
craig1958Feb 12, 2012
It may cost votes, but it's also the right thing to do... and they have plenty of votes to spare.
Back here in the 21st century, we are not going to let other people's superstitions determine what health coverage is available to employees.
pc25Feb 12, 2012
he overstepped his bounds concerning the First Amendment and it hasn't gone unnoticed in every church from the largest cathedral to the smallest neighborhood ministry. What don't you people understand about Separation of Church and State. It bit him on the rear end.
skews13Feb 10, 2012
Just read the AP story. The specific institutions don't have to cover it, but the insurance companies do, and contraception will still be available to all with no copay. Having said that, these specific non church entities all recieve taxpayer funding. With this compromise the IRS can now revoke their tax exempt status, and should. Nothing in the first amendment that protects them from that.Comment is buried, click here to see the rest.
mortventFeb 10, 2012
shh, they don't want to pay taxes that will be used to fund health care plans like the one congress has that pays for contraceptives.
craig1958Feb 10, 2012
Exactly, they just repackaged the requirement to remove the employers from the decision loop. The employees still get the coverage, but the political issue goes away. These employers will still be paying for the full insurance coverage, so nothing has really changed. Now the republicans have a choice; they can declare "victory" and give up the political issue, or they can try to explain to their base that nothing has actually changed (good luck with that).
skews13Feb 11, 2012
At this point it has become a moot point. Who does or doesn't cover the costs of contraception is irrellevant. The main point is contraception remains available for women. That's a victory against religious dogma preaching against it. In another unrelated story, Susan G. Komen lost supporters, the newly appointed anti choice vice president was forced to resign, and Planned Parenthood has recieved record donations. It was not a good week for social conservatives. The following weeks aren't going to get any better for them.
craig1958Feb 12, 2012
You are correct, aside from all the politics and superstition, employers and/or their insurance companies will be required to provide these services. Everything else is just background noise.
pc25Feb 12, 2012
the Bishops said no dice.......
craig1958Feb 12, 2012
They can say whatever they like. At the end of the day they will finish whining and follow the law, just like any other employer. Even if they don't like it, the insurance companies they contract with will still be required to offer these services to their clients. The "bishops" opinions are irrelevant, they are not medical professionals and they don't get to make other people's medical decisions.
The bishops can now go back to wearing funny hats and denying gravity, or whatever it is that they are supposed to be doing.
ashleyashy2013Feb 10, 2012
this is ridiculous. The Catholic Church needs to pick and choose their battles: birth control or abortion. You can't go without both that's just unpractical.Comment is buried, click here to see the rest.
geogeerFeb 10, 2012
It is the contraceptive mentality that leads to abortion. It is licit to practice natural family planning within a Catholic marriage for grave reasons.
bigbert81Feb 10, 2012
This article basically says nothing except there will be changes, and the amount of speculation from both sides in reading these comments is beyond massive.
He IS changing the mandate about the Catholic church providing the pills to women; however, he is making the insurance companies that cater to the Catholic church reach out to the women directly to provide the coverage. A good move on Obama's part.Comment is buried, click here to see the rest.
stevanoskiFeb 10, 2012
Reckon why he didn't propose this originally? IMHO it is because he does not understand we are a country that follows a constitution not one that allows you to dictate to the people.
bigbert81Feb 10, 2012
Or there was an oversight/underestimation about how crazy the right can truly be...
Seriously though, I can SEE the 'religious freedom' side on this debate; I think they do make a point (though debatable), but the point is moot now, he's sidestepping the debate and going straight to the insurance contact with the insured.
kcast985Feb 11, 2012
looks like Obama caved once again. Good decision.
ratichousFeb 10, 2012
While I agree that this isn't the federal governments job, I fail to see how in the year 2012 people are still opposed to birth control. Do people view the world through such rose colored glasses to not see overpopulation as the single biggest issue humanity faces? Limited space, starvation, limited natural resources, wars being fought over said resources....etc. To me, logically...if you are a pro-lifer, then you think you would be very pro-birth control. Who knows, maybe most are? But it sure seems the two are often married together for some strange reason. Why would we not try to prevent as many accidental pregnancies that could result in abortion as possible? Do people really think teaching abstinence as the only option is realistic in todays world?
Just my 2 cents...Comment is buried, click here to see the rest.
mortventFeb 10, 2012
Maybe they can opt out, but give up their tax exemptions if they do.
rockyoumonkeysFeb 10, 2012
Don't know why these comments get thumbs-down. This is a true comment. Churches and church organizations absolutely should have to give up all their tax exemptions if they want to start pushing back at the government like this.Comment is buried, click here to see the rest.
mortventFeb 10, 2012
alt accounts and brainwashed sheep