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klipschfanJan 15, 2012
I am a military veteran. I was continually told that we are better than them because we don't do those sort of things. AKA Moral Authority.
When we do this is an illiterate nation like Afghanistan it creates an "International Incident" that feeds Taliban recruiting efforts. It in effect gives aid and comfort to the enemy.
This incident is not a war crime. It does not reflect the values of the American people and has ben roundly condemned. I don't think that we need to crucify these Marines. Especially when we have turned a blind eye to far worse offenses to living breathing human persons in Iraq and Afghanistan. Remember the "Collateral Murder" video of the Apache helicopter?
As to Alan West speaking on this subject, he too has given aid and comfort to the enemy by aiding recruitment of insurgents.
What's next are we going to hear Mitt Romney talk about the ills of vulture capitalism?
pdx_diggerJan 15, 2012
Thank you for putting into words what I had such a hard time with last night. As a 21 year military veteran who thinks that Allen West is nothing more than a windbag who disgraced his uniform and unit, I too believe that our training is designed to put us above such uncouth acts. We are SUPPOSED to be better than the enemy, and we're supposed to be professionals. That act is not something that you should expect from a military professional.
johnnysoftwareJan 15, 2012
In some red states, one out of ten adults cannot read.
In most former communist states, it is more like one in one hundred.
Foreign nations are not as illiterate as Americans like to think. Most Americans nowadays do not read the news -- they watch it. They do not read the news and then decide how they feel about it.
They watch/listen to a talking head tell them how to feel and then give them a piece of news to that better make them feel that way or else there is something wrong with them, in the reporter's opinion.
Nobody said that the incident is a war crime but if you look at the laws of the US and Afghanistan it is a crime. The fact that it is not a war crime, probably makes it and the US invasion all the more reprehensible in the nation these troops were visiting and venting their spleen in.
If your sole take on the incident itself is that it is "not a war crime" then the US has lost the battle for the minds and hearts of Afghanistan because you don't do this and think that and win squat.
klipschfanJan 15, 2012
I see that you have a grasp on Moral Authority. I am heartened.
This incident happened in Afghanistan where Taliban forces use audio and video to spread their propaganda, because many there can't read.
Acts like this are not new. I appreciate your comment about TV in the US, because we ignored reports about a death squad of US forces that were taking fingers as trophies. It played on the Internet.
I understand the outrage. Let's look at everything in Afghanistan. Maybe then we will realize that our presence there is not helping the situation.
assassyn360Jan 17, 2012
Hello fellow residential veteran. Yes the urination on dead insurgents IS a war crime in international armed conflict, and violation of the UCMJ.
"The prohibition of mutilating dead bodies in international armed conflicts is covered by the war crime of “committing outrages upon personal dignity” under the Statute of the International Criminal Court, which according to the Elements of Crimes also applies to dead persons (see commentary to Rule 90).[8]
Many military manuals prohibit the mutilation or other maltreatment of the dead.[9] Mutilation of the dead is an offence under the legislation of many States.[10] In several trials after the Second World War, the accused were convicted on charges of mutilation of dead bodies and cannibalism.[11] The prohibition on mutilating the dead is further supported by official statements and other practice.[12] "
http://www.icrc.org/customary-ihl/eng/docs/v1_rul_rule113
klipschfanJan 17, 2012
I think your reference informs the discussion greatly.This is a semantic point however from the standpoint of Armed Conflicts (Protocol II) Art. 8 which refers to despoil which means grave robbing in this context.
From my perspective it is only slight less objectionable to pitch a body out of a helicopter into the sea.
theownerzJan 14, 2012
LOL there's a joke in that description but i'm leaving well enough alone
nachocheaseJan 15, 2012
I'd very much like to see Allen West's reaction to pictures of the Taliban urinating on the bodies of dead US soldiers. I seriously doubt he'd be telling people not to get over emotional over that.
johnnysoftwareJan 15, 2012
Look at it this way, from a normal Afghan's standpoint. Someone who was born there, those friends were born there, who goes to religious services and funerals and weddings.
Strangers come to his country, they kill his countrymen -- and they urinate on their corpses.
That would not fly too well here, would it?
Well, it probably does not fly any better there.
West telling people to "zip it" comes way too late.
The word he is searching for is not "emotional". It is "moral".
karmashockJan 15, 2012
In so far as I understand the politics we've mostly contained the damage. Everyone condemned it and the soldiers are getting punished. This will all go away soon.
Closed AccountJan 15, 2012
The problem is that it made its way on the Internet. It will never go away.
cosmicsurferJan 15, 2012
And it is exactly this type of behavior, caught on tape, that will be used to inflame and enrage in order to create more hostility.
WE are our own worst enemy by the things we do and say that we believe should get a pass or "will all go away soon" when we do exactly the same thing as those we attack for their inhumanity (case in point, the continued use as an example justifying our inhumanity, the one or two soldiers who were held and had their heads cut off, captured as a video message to us during the first years of Bush's Attack on Iraq)Comment is buried, click here to see the rest.
karmashockJan 15, 2012
Afghans aren't on the internet. So I don't care.
TheMightyZordonJan 16, 2012
http://www.internetworldstats.com/stats3.htm
According to that link, there may be as many as 1 million Afghans with Internet access, out of a population of 30 million. Those one million people can spread word about the incident via other means.
Oh, and this is gonna piss off more than just Afghans. It will offend other Muslims as well. . .and according to that website, about 70 million people in the Middle East region use the internet, out of 216 million.
So. . .your argument doesn't work.
karmashockJan 16, 2012
that isn't accurate... it's very shoty... worse then dial up and expensive. Even in Kabul.
johnnysoftwareJan 15, 2012
He is not running for President, is he?
dauntless1Jan 15, 2012
He would if he thought people had forgotten about the unnecessary acts he's committed while "wrapped in the flag".
aadyssJan 15, 2012
No, liberals really don't want a real black man in the White House. You know, one who is actually a man.
theswashbucklerJan 15, 2012
West isn't a man, he's a punk.
kareemachanJan 15, 2012
And a biker wannabe.
pc25Jan 15, 2012
from an earlier article on Digg today. The quote is from Alan West
"I do not recall any self-righteous indignation when our Delta snipers Shugart and Gordon had their bodies dragged through Mogadishu. Neither do I recall media outrage and condemnation of our Blackwater security contractors being killed, their bodies burned, and hung from a bridge in Fallujah."
cosmicsurferJan 15, 2012
Justifying actions by the actions of others now?
Lame.
So you are going to become the scum of the earth just because someone else chose to act that way?
Maturity not your forte - nor is a moral compass.
Are you going to rob a bank or become a serial rapist because someone else did? All justified right?
Alan West is a low rent assh**e who showed his lack of character when he was asked to resign from the service.
The Marines who have been identified are all to face court martial for despicable acts. They don't deserve to wear a uniform of a protector.
Alan West proved he doesn't either. They have all proven to have no concern for their oath or their country.Comment is buried, click here to see the rest.
pc25Jan 15, 2012
where's your outrage over those actions.
chestnutridgeJan 15, 2012
But there was plenty of "outrage" about the Delta snipers. Do you and West just have faulty memories or do you just reflexively make this kind of silly claim about the media whenever it suits your purpose?Comment is buried, click here to see the rest.
TheMightyZordonJan 16, 2012
I'd say it's #2.
peppermintpigJan 15, 2012
I am not only not outraged, but I am not surprised by blowback and retribution. What I am is highly offended by a political war machine which feeds it human bodies, makes them soldiers in needless conflicts, and then allows their corpses to be landfilled.
peppermintpigJan 15, 2012
Would the person burying my comment care to elaborate on why they disagree?
johnnysoftwareJan 15, 2012
If people are really thinking rationally about this and not just emotionally, they will be trying to find out what state these sociopaths moved back to in the United States because they and whatever community raised them doesn't seem like a safe place for people.
And if this is what they have been doing for four years, then it is a lot less safe now than when they left it and while they were gone.
peppermintpigJan 16, 2012
A lot of politicians like war, even to the point that they declare wars on abstractions, like terror, or inanimate objects like drugs. These are really wars on their own citizens, and has resulted in a fracturing of civility domestically, while outright foreign intervention hasn't really made the US a more respected world power or made sense in establishing peace.
smotpokerJan 15, 2012
I remember plenty of outrage over Fallujah (and a vicious attack on the city in retribution that killed many innocents). The worst atrocities I've heard of were committed by US forces yet I've heard few, if any, ever condemned by US media or general public.
johnnysoftwareJan 15, 2012
Maybe there was no feeling in the room he and everyone with him was watching the incident in.
I was outraged when I saw reports of troops dragged by trucks through towns.
Know what else is an outrage? It happens here. With live US citizens. In America.
http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/nationnow/2011/09/texas-set-to-execute-man-for-1998-dragging-murder-of-james-byrd-jr.html
Home of the free.
FTA: "Instead of taking Byrd home, the men drove him down a remote county road, beat him unconscious, urinated on his body, chained him by his ankles to the truck and dragged him for three miles. When the truck made a hard turn at a bend in the road, Byrd's head struck a cement culvert and he was decapitated."
Land of the brave.
"We don't torture." - George W. Bush, Texas
"They were doing it in Texas." - Butthole Surfers, "Avalanche"
theswashbucklerJan 15, 2012
West has a bad memory.
alanocuJan 14, 2012
President Allen West should have been saying these things from his desk in the Oval Office.
chestnutridgeJan 15, 2012
Please tell me you are just trolling!
kaegroJan 15, 2012
It just proves how classy the American army is. It's not like the rest of the world will see this deplorable act and judge your country by it.
FrankLuskaJan 15, 2012
Did your teacher punish the whole class because of one clown? and you somehow felt responsible for another persons actions?
We should just lock up the whole country next time someone gets murdered.Comment is buried, click here to see the rest.
kingnovaJan 15, 2012
His point is somewhat lame, but it IS telling how many right wing "never served a day in my life" chicken hawks are applauding this.
We are supposed to be BETTER than this (and better than them), not applauding.
FrankLuskaJan 15, 2012
Agreed, but you can't hold an entire country accountable for the actions of a few people, you run into things like the Iraq war, Afghanistan, ........
A few people attacked us on 9/11 and we need to wipe out entire countries? Same with American soldiers pissing on dead people, this is not a representation of America's military, but of a few bad people who should be reprimanded to the fullest extent, including losing their job and any benefits.
Only very ignorant people judge a whole by actions of a few.
kingnovaJan 15, 2012
Oh, I agree. That's why I said his comment is lame.
Unfortunately, we have a LOT of people who condemn a billion Muslims for the acts of a few, then turn around and applaud this crap without a hint of irony/embarrassment.Comment is buried, click here to see the rest.
crashdvisJan 15, 2012
First, they are Marines. Second, one thing the video proves is that they are better than the Taliban. Why? Because the Taliban were dead at their feet and the Marines were celebrating. Thats a win we can be proud of. The more dead Taliban there are, the better.
anomaly100Jan 15, 2012
So, the Manson family is better than the people they slaughtered simply because their victims laid at their feet? Got it.
TheMightyZordonJan 16, 2012
So. . .it's acceptable to 'celebrate' by urinating on the dead bodies of your opponents? Not only is that morally questionable, but it's just outright lacking in class. It's offensive and disgraceful.
Closed AccountJan 15, 2012
Sorry, not the Army, the Marines.
As being ex-army, I've never liked the marines, and their officers, even less.
Just a bunch of hypocritical, two face religious bigots in uniforms. Where is the discipline so loudly touted? It is not there. They are in effect, mature infants running around with guns.
What these men did is immoral and illegal while in uniform and representing our country. Dishonorable discharge is in order, toss them to the unemployment line.
theswashbucklerJan 15, 2012
Allen West can go f**k himself.
I'm sure he'd feel quite a bit differently if that were a video of Taliban pissing on the bodies of dead American soldiers.
johnnysoftwareJan 15, 2012
Sometimes if the only thing you can say is incontinent, it is better to say nothing at all.
anomaly100Jan 14, 2012
Oh Allen, you're such a pisser.
alanocuJan 14, 2012
Just so I get this straight: Occupy Wall Street protester s**tting on a police car is patriotic; peeing on terrorist murderers is un-American.
Got it.Comment is buried, click here to see the rest.
anomaly100Jan 14, 2012
1) - cite proof that was an Occupier
2) - you said the same thing. This is unjustifiable, but I see you had a Sarah Palin changey-mindy kind of moment.
pc25Jan 15, 2012
it was at an occupy rally, if the shoe fits wear it.
anomaly100Jan 15, 2012
I said, proof.
pc25Jan 15, 2012
it works both ways kid, you have to prove that he wasn't an occupier since it happened at an occupy rally.
FrankLuskaJan 15, 2012
@pc25, Are you sure you don't need to prove, that was not a republican sent down there to make the occupiers look bad?
Works all kinds of ways.
anomaly100Jan 15, 2012
I don't have to prove a thing 'kid'. You made the accusation, so you back it up.
publiclurkerJan 15, 2012
I don't remember anyone saying that was OK, and even if it was, that has nothing to do with you being a piss-ant of a pisser.
My children know better than to try such lame attempts at deflection. I guess that makes my little girl more of a man than you.Comment is buried, click here to see the rest.
kingnovaJan 15, 2012
Just so I get this straight. You are comparing a protester to a Marine who has sworn an oath?
johnnysoftwareJan 15, 2012
A soldier got sworn in, served his tour of duty overseas managing not to get shot by the enemy, returns to the US, and the police in California bring him to death's door by shooting him in the *head* with a projectile.
http://www.mercurynews.com/breaking-news/ci_19199894
Because he was at town people were protesting in around him.
jonz334Jan 14, 2012
He always open his mouth and trash comes out....sort of like a guy name Kanye.
cranelakeJan 14, 2012
Yeah, what the big deal. It's just another example of the shining beacon that is America showing us all how war should be fought.
Carry on pissing on the locals and you'll be there for another ten pointless years.Comment is buried, click here to see the rest.
kasha34Jan 15, 2012
Yeah, don't want to get those Talibs mad. They might plant bombs, send suicide bombers and saw off captives heads. They might kill teachers and threaten men that shave their beards.
Oh wait....
cranelakeJan 15, 2012
I think you already got them mad enough by invading their country, slaughtering their women and children, torturing them and imprisioning them without trial for the last ten years, don't you?Comment is buried, click here to see the rest.
kasha34Jan 15, 2012
You're saying the Taliban ARE the Afghan people?
"The Taliban and their allies committed massacres against Afghan civilians, denied UN food supplies to 160,000 starving civilians and conducted a policy of scorched earth burning vast areas of fertile land and destroying tens of thousands of homes during their rule from 1996-2001." wikipedia
cranelakeJan 15, 2012
Where do you think they come from? Mars?
Listen, dude, I find their philosophy as abhorrent as you, but that doesn't detract from that by invading that country and killing innocents, you've made it easy for them to keep recruiting.
If Afghanistan invaded the US, bombed your home in San Diego, killing your entire family, you'd probably join up with whoever you could to get your revenge with, right?
So how are they any different? Except for the fact the Pashtun have been kicking the s**t out of foreign invaders for centuries and the closest anyone in the US has got to fighting invaders is Call to Action 2Comment is buried, click here to see the rest.
kasha34Jan 15, 2012
As you know, the Taliban harbored AQ which DID attack us.
When they wouldn't turn them over to us, they got invaded.
Also, as you know, almost ALL the non-combatants killed by the war in Afghanistan were killed by the Taliban.
crashdvisJan 15, 2012
You are right. We did show how it should be fought. Those were dead Taliban in that video. Not dead Americans. What does that show? That we fought better. So yes smartass, the video does show how we should fight.
cranelakeJan 15, 2012
If you fought so fantastically perhaps you'd care to explain why the most powerful military in the world is still, after ten years, not able to subdue a bunch of peasants with AK 47s?
And It's not the first time either, is it?Comment is buried, click here to see the rest.
aadyssJan 15, 2012
I don't think you would like it. We could subdue them in less than 30 days but you would be screaming about everything. We would destroy Pakistan and Afghanistan. Would you like that cranelake or would you be protesting at the top of your lungs about.......
You could not possibly satisfy someone like you. Damned if we do, damned if we don't.
Have you written Obama a nasty letter about his murderous actions in Afghanistan?
Perhaps we should sent you over to evaluate your combat skills. I'm sure they are simply tremendous.
cranelakeJan 15, 2012
Really, and what is this oh so powerful secret weapon that would "subdue" them in 30 days? Is a special out of space super duper gun? Or a titanium robot army? And if it's so easy why are you still there after 10 long, long years, getting bitched slapped by a rag tag bunch of farmer boys?
And why on earth would you unleash your might super powers on the 180 million people of Pakistan, an American ally?
And why would I write to your president, when he's not my elected representative?
And, finally, why the f**k would I want my amazing ninja like combat skills evaluated by an army that keeps losing?Comment is buried, click here to see the rest.
aadyssJan 15, 2012
We lose because we are so touchy feely like you.
Pooping or peeing one's pants in times of crisis are not ninja like combat skills. Sorry to force reality on you.
Pakistan, an American ally. Wow!
johnnysoftwareJan 15, 2012
@crashdvis
Great, now tell us how it shows how to "win the hearts and minds" of the soggy corpses' fellow countrymen at the cost of trillions of dollars.Comment is buried, click here to see the rest.
kasha34Jan 15, 2012
During WWII we were concerned with "winning hearts and minds" of the Nazis or the Imperial Japanese. We managed to convince them that their fight could not be won. So they gave up and turned into civilized allies.
austinjameshereJan 15, 2012
The video he is so stupidly defending is something that shouldn't be excused or tolerated. The vast majority of soldiers don't do crap like this, but when you make excuses for the small minority of people who do, you are only making it more likely that another event like this will occur again - and these acts of stupidity do put our troops in danger by encouraging retaliation against them. Allen West is an idiot and his words will only drag this whole thing out.Comment is buried, click here to see the rest.
phillyoverclockJan 16, 2012
I see nothing wrong here. Just giving him a burial at sea in accordance with his religion.
ka5p3rJan 15, 2012
I would say Dishonorable discharge is in order but then it's marines where talking about.in viet nam I "1st air cav" had to bail the idiots out many times,there mouth is by far bigger then there brain or dick.all branches of military knows marines are "special".i recall the once a marine always a marine crap.well again "special".as in wearing a helmet and ride's the little yellow bus.
Closed AccountJan 14, 2012
we gave the taliwackers a taste of their own medicine and they whined.....but video taping it was dumb. if you are unsure about something DO NOT videotape it or take pics.Comment is buried, click here to see the rest.
kc9eciJan 15, 2012
If you don't want a bullet through your brainpan and your lifeless body pissed on, don't join the Taliban and take up arms.
kasha34Jan 15, 2012
Sounds like a good message to me. The way to win a war to to convince the enemy fighters that they're dying for nothing.
kc9eciJan 15, 2012
Looks like the Taliban has infested digg.com and has the thumbs down commandos out in force.
Closed AccountJan 15, 2012
The Talib scored big in the court of public opinion. The video made it on the Internet. The world knows.
bossm4nJan 15, 2012
CAIR was responsible for that. I think that's pretty much all that we need to know.
johnnysoftwareJan 15, 2012
CAIR joined the US army and shot Afghans?
bossm4nJan 15, 2012
No, but CAIR being the propaganda mouthpiece for the terrorist wing of Islam made sure that video got maximum exposure and outrage.
theswashbucklerJan 15, 2012
As opposed to the f**king morons like yourself?
angrycat70Jan 15, 2012
Why? When Abu Ghraib happened, there were people calling for Bush and Cheney to go to the Hague to face war crimes charges.
Seems a bit self serving to me to bitch about republican scandals and just decide by acclimation to sweep democratic scandals under the rug.Comment is buried, click here to see the rest.
smotpokerJan 15, 2012
Abu Ghraib was officially sanctioned, pissing on dead bodies certainly isn't.
I agree, though. We shouldn't exempt those with authority of their responsibility to prevent such incidents.Comment is buried, click here to see the rest.
crashdvisJan 15, 2012
Always an excuse.
smotpokerJan 15, 2012
Mistreating dead people is certainly a lot less severe than mistreating live ones and Obama admin never (to my knowledge at least) backed 'Advanced Interrogation Techniques'. It's the difference between blaming the gov for the laws/policies they made and blaming individuals for the laws/policies they've violated.
Keep trying to see the world in monochrome and you will never get an accurate picture. Go through my comments, you will see nearly every comment is anti-Obama yet you choose to act as if the opposite is true. Please, keep your petty, childish, partisan bulls**t accusations and double-standards to yourself and don't waste your time (and ours) replying to comments you obviously have no intent to read or interpret rationally/objectively.
Not that I expect you to heed, but I'd prefer if you no longer reply to anything I say. It takes too much time and effort to dumb everything down enough for you to comprehend. Thanks in advance if you do decide to be remotely civil and respect my wishes, though!Comment is buried, click here to see the rest.
specimen7Jan 15, 2012
So here is the video in case you missed it. www.youtube.com/watch?v=F6lR3ZGFwvI
I didn't even believe the article until I searched it out on the tube.
You will have to log in to view the video. Google gives information freely to any government who wishes it.Comment is buried, click here to see the rest.
JLF2035Jan 15, 2012
If someone was trying to kill me and my friends; I'd piss (and probably s**t) on their dead body as well. But I wouldn't be dumb enough to film it and put it online.Comment is buried, click here to see the rest.
johnnysoftwareJan 15, 2012
In this country you can kill someone in self defense but you can't urinate on a corpse.
It's called desecrating a corpse. You're not supposed to let live men lie and you are supposed to let dead men lay.
With jokers like this one walkabout, I do not think the US is going to be in that country much longer.
People selling bombs and bullets just care that they keep going off somewhere so the refill orders come in. They do not care where. They will just shuffle off to another country.
Think how much money someone will make on selling the motor pool alone the US abandons in this country too.
Even the living are turning in their graves now over this.
mikelistJan 15, 2012
hopefully you haven't decided on a military career. the afghans were enemy combatants, not terrorists. "booyah, who's the bitch now?" isn't part of a soldier's general orders. enemy or not, who is in whose country?
otoh, it's nothing new, i've talked to ww2 vets who collected fingers and eyeteeth, and vietnam vets who collected ears.
JLF2035Jan 16, 2012
Last I checked, the taliban are terrorists.