old.news.yahoo.com— No issue divides more along partisan lines than the importance of environmental protection  58% of Democrats say it is a top priority, compared with just 27% of Republicans.
Feb 3, 2012View in Crawl 4
You know the Republicans used to be for the environment. Teddy Roosevelt created the park service, Nixon put in the Clean Air Act. It wasn't until the 1980s with the derptastic idiots of the Christian Right took over the party that it began to be against the environment and caring for poor, elderly, and the sick.
well when religious people believe the end times are at hand and jesus will soon return and they pick a huge fight with non believers and deamons and the likes
who can be bothered fussing over the environment :P
It is kinda hard to be concerned with the environmental consequences of your actions in this existence when you're endlessly preoccupied with an afterlife...its okay if you suck the material earth dry & leave your crap everywhere, because if you "believe", you'll end up in heaven where the environmental consequences of your actions also conveniently don't matter...
Interestingly enough, this logic also easily justifies other things the supposedly more pious people like to endorse, like wars in predominantly non-Christian, non-capitalist parts of the world...its okay if you die for God or country, because you'll be "rewarded in heaven".
In reality, what it looks like to any non-Christian, is that Christian conservatives are trying to get around the notion of gluttony & avarice being categorized as "sins".
Business can become more efficient and profitable by being environmentally friendly.
I find it astounding, that they are willing to spend huge sums of cash fighting, what it takes just that same cash to implement. Do they employ humans, that must live in the area? Are they themselves in need of clean air or water?
False. Environmental policy when it runs amok kills business.
Example, in california we were building one of the largest solar power plants in the world. Doesn't get any more environmentally friendly then building as solar power plant right? Well, you'd think that if you knew NOTHING of the radical environmental movement. The whole thing was shut down because it endangered the habitat of a local lizard. Obviously we were building it in the middle of the desert. And just in case you're curious, the whole thing was being built by oil companies trying to do a good thing by building a HUGE solar power plant. Well, joke is on them because environmentalists don't care. There is no project they won't terminate. No construction they won't protest. No industry they won't interfere with... Not because they want to save the environment but because they're neo-Luddites that just want everyone to party like it's 1699.
Disagree? Well, then how about you give us some sort of bargain. Just let us know what the rules are and then stop changing them. What is making us crazy is that we're told the rules are X and then we start a project that complies with ALL the rules in X... but that isn't good enough so our project which we've invested billions in gets shut down or gainsaid because now we're not complying with all the rules in Y. So we say... fine, maybe you missed something. We're good sports. We'll try and adapt our program so we can comply with all the rules in Y. And because we're also clever and creative we figure out how to do that. Well, jokes on us because now we have to comply with all the rules in Z. At this point, we're about four times over budget, the project is years behind scheduel, and we're actually kind of pissed. Then we get a bunch of moralizing and ignorant bulls**t about how we're being irresponsible, selfish, and inevidably evil because we're not willing to comply with the rules. Oh and while we were thinking about that the new rules are now changed again and if we had tried to comply with Z we'd have just been screwed again.
This is why factories, power plants, and whole industries are just shutting down. You've f'ed them. They feel f'ed. And when you talk to them about their unreasonableness... you have to understand that to them... this talk of unreasonableness is coming from the person or entity or political faction that just f'ed them repeatedly.
So you get different reactions.
1. Lots of businesses just tip the chess board over, throw all the pieces in the air, show you the bird, and walk away. They're gone. And they're not coming back.
2. Some businesses cut deals. They pay people off. They find the politicians or political groups that effectively are terrorizing their industry and they make a deal. This works out well sometimes but it's extremely unstable. See all those solar panel companies that are going bankrupt in the US? Well, they built their whole business model on being protected and loved by their "friends"... when that stopped they died. Building a business on the love of politicians only works for weapons contractors and labor unions.
There are other models and permutations but generally those are the two big reactions when this sets in...
We're beyond tired of being lectured to by the likes of such people. Nothing is ever enough and anything short of absolute obedience to their latest edict equals total moral excommunication... you either bow or you're a demon.
Well, f' it then. If the choice is be your bitch or be a demon then so be it. We'll sharpen our horns, oil our leathery wings, and breath fire.
You want to get real... we'll get real. You want to play make believe and cast pathetic character assassinations against anyone that doesn't kowtow... Game on.Comment is buried, click here to see the rest.
I have worked at many a facility, that can easily show the extra cash they now have from becoming environmentally friendly. It did cost to set up, but the payoff is huge. 1 small example: Subaru even sells it's "dust from the welding area", by the way. (Basically extra cash for free, now.)
The man had one example, their are others. You obviously have nothing to talk about here, at all.
and if we sold the dust from our welding area, which we do already... you'll leave us alone?
See, the lie here is that if we just did that ONE thing we'd be left alone. But there is ALWAYS another thing we have to do. You keep moving the goal posts. And there is never any consideration for how many times in the past we've moved heaven and earth to meet the last set of conditions. So we're constantly in this state of "you're evil" no matter what we do.
TL,DR Don't think I missed much when you decided the entire environmental movement is identical to a handful of extremist NIMBYs. Sort of like saying EVERYONE on the right is JUST LIKE Anders Behring Breivik (or Timothy McVeigh, or Adkisson, or etc). Except I guess the far left idiots just block useful infrastructure while the far right idiots are politically motivated mass murders who have a tendency to kill women and children.
That's like saying not all PETA members are as crazy as the leadership. Well, doesn't really matter when the leadership is bats**t insane and everyone else in the group follows their orders.
The solar plant in California wasn't shut down by a handful of extremists. You had full fledged U.S. senators coming out against it, even though it was a part of their plan several years before.
WE know how to compete. It's the politicians, mostly Democrats, who pass laws and regs that make us less competitive.
Just as in the book.
Who is John Galt?
The greeks could make the same argument... it's not us... it's our stupid government and all the parasites.
does it matter? It doesn't. By surrendering the government we lose control and are at best spectators. THe problem with Ann Rand's book is that her solution was a comic book. She had some norse pirate in a submarine attacking the shipping of the "looters" and she had all the various producers coordinate in some master plan to undermine the system. And they all retreated to some weird hidden enclave in the mountains. I mean... come on.
The galt solution is about as practical as warp drive or time travel.
At best, it's like a child holding their breath until they turn blue. A conceit of the libertarian movement is that the statists will at some point cry uncle and give in.
They NEVER will. They could bring the whole society down to the stone age and they still wouldn't give in. I don't blame this on them... it's not an ideology thing... it's a human thing. Humans work that way.
If you want to drive these people out of power then you need to play the game better then them. Stop thinking you can win by not playing.. that's just giving up.
Good. It's about time people protected the environment over mindless greed. Energy should be more distributed anyway and less owned by a small number of greedy individuals. Too bad, so sad, I could care less that a bunch of oil company executives decided to rape the country side in a different way and got all upset about it when someone pointed out the environmental impact and stopped it...boo-hoo....clearly there is a need to develop an energy strategy based on a combination of environmental impact, cost, ownership and long term benefit to the people. Not a small number of executives just deciding to drop down a massive project because it gives them a huge tax break and subsidies and allows them an unfair competitive advantage in the solar market...cry me a f**king river.
Well, enjoy your time shriving in the dark then... because energy prices are going to keep skyrocketing as people like you become increasingly unemployable.
I'll also point out that this is exactly the sort of comment that proves my point. You're not interested in getting anyone to comply with the rules to save the environment. You don't care about the environment. You hate the corporations and you hate the factories and you hate industry. You've never been negotiating in good faith. The whole thing was a game from the start to destroy industry in the guise of environmentalism. Nothing will ever be enough because it will only be enough when they're destroyed. Then theoretically idiots like you will be in charge and things will only get more desperate and ugly from there on out as you fail, people get scared, and you hold on to your ill gotten power at the barrel of a gun.
Think I'm exaggerating? It's already happened many places in the world. You're not remarkable. We are the exception to the rule. People like you are common. And where ever you take over everything turns to crap.
The good news is that you're pretty stupid and as soon as enough people grasp that you're basically a horrible human being and should be manipulated... things go much more smoothly. The europeans are actually getting rather good at it. They like to trick you by agreeing with you, telling you how much they like you, passing whatever law you want, and then either not enforcing it or putting in a loophole that makes compliance optional. They do that with a lot of things. It works on the simple.
Our policies are more direct and less evasive but arguably more effective. In any case, you're respected no where on the face of this earth. Even countries you would count as a friend to your ideology are merely practiced in lying to you. They've found that to be an efficient defense.
The argument against trying to ameliorate global warming is the same one previously used against removing lead from gasoline, DDT from the ecosystem, mercury from coal emissions... If nine out of ten scientists say we need to be concerned about something, why do so many people cling to that last scientist's opinion?
It could be, they have an agenda?
I write my tbag rep on this all the time just for fun. She had her grand daughter in all of her commercials, talking about the poor girl, (who will be inheriting millions) having to pay the deficit. I remind her, her grand daughter won't live without clean air or water, if she is a human being. The deficit will not matter is she is dead. (Of course, she may not be human at all.)
PS Most of the "canned responses" are not even on the topic. I guess she does not have any on the environment. I know she hates health care reform though, in spades. ( I like that, wish their was a public option.)
Democrats have solved the environmental problems. We all become homeless and starve because there's no jobs. The evil corporations move to another country. Problem solved.Comment is buried, click here to see the rest.
They went already, in case you didn't notice. You did not volunteer to work for $1 a day. You could have saved jobs, yarmutha. You and your buddies in a company owned dorm, your family at the poor farm!
They're still leaving. It's not all one dollar a day. Many corporations are moving to Canada which has high wages but low taxes. Corporations are the enemy for the Democrats. 4 more years and there won't be anything left and the Dems will still be spewing hate about corporations.Comment is buried, click here to see the rest.
I am for dropping the corporate tax rate to match Canada and most other developed nations, but "all loopholes gone" including stupid tax subsidies at the federal level. We would have far more income. And taxes are not an environmental issue, in case you don't know what the topic is on this post.
tigerglebe245Feb 4, 2012
You know the Republicans used to be for the environment. Teddy Roosevelt created the park service, Nixon put in the Clean Air Act. It wasn't until the 1980s with the derptastic idiots of the Christian Right took over the party that it began to be against the environment and caring for poor, elderly, and the sick.
Mark_LincolnFeb 4, 2012
Quite true. The EPA was created under Nixon at his urging.
Back then liberals used to mock us 'conservationists' as 'little old ladies in tennis shoes.'
Now republicans hate conservation with an intensity which is astounding.
kasha34Feb 5, 2012
It's gone too far, that's all. And anything for the purpose of ameliorating global warming is a waste of resources.
rudegarFeb 5, 2012
well when religious people believe the end times are at hand and jesus will soon return and they pick a huge fight with non believers and deamons and the likes
who can be bothered fussing over the environment :P
ericschc1Feb 5, 2012
It is kinda hard to be concerned with the environmental consequences of your actions in this existence when you're endlessly preoccupied with an afterlife...its okay if you suck the material earth dry & leave your crap everywhere, because if you "believe", you'll end up in heaven where the environmental consequences of your actions also conveniently don't matter...
Interestingly enough, this logic also easily justifies other things the supposedly more pious people like to endorse, like wars in predominantly non-Christian, non-capitalist parts of the world...its okay if you die for God or country, because you'll be "rewarded in heaven".
In reality, what it looks like to any non-Christian, is that Christian conservatives are trying to get around the notion of gluttony & avarice being categorized as "sins".
u2canfailFeb 3, 2012
Business can become more efficient and profitable by being environmentally friendly.
I find it astounding, that they are willing to spend huge sums of cash fighting, what it takes just that same cash to implement. Do they employ humans, that must live in the area? Are they themselves in need of clean air or water?
karmashockFeb 4, 2012
False. Environmental policy when it runs amok kills business.
Example, in california we were building one of the largest solar power plants in the world. Doesn't get any more environmentally friendly then building as solar power plant right? Well, you'd think that if you knew NOTHING of the radical environmental movement. The whole thing was shut down because it endangered the habitat of a local lizard. Obviously we were building it in the middle of the desert. And just in case you're curious, the whole thing was being built by oil companies trying to do a good thing by building a HUGE solar power plant. Well, joke is on them because environmentalists don't care. There is no project they won't terminate. No construction they won't protest. No industry they won't interfere with... Not because they want to save the environment but because they're neo-Luddites that just want everyone to party like it's 1699.
Disagree? Well, then how about you give us some sort of bargain. Just let us know what the rules are and then stop changing them. What is making us crazy is that we're told the rules are X and then we start a project that complies with ALL the rules in X... but that isn't good enough so our project which we've invested billions in gets shut down or gainsaid because now we're not complying with all the rules in Y. So we say... fine, maybe you missed something. We're good sports. We'll try and adapt our program so we can comply with all the rules in Y. And because we're also clever and creative we figure out how to do that. Well, jokes on us because now we have to comply with all the rules in Z. At this point, we're about four times over budget, the project is years behind scheduel, and we're actually kind of pissed. Then we get a bunch of moralizing and ignorant bulls**t about how we're being irresponsible, selfish, and inevidably evil because we're not willing to comply with the rules. Oh and while we were thinking about that the new rules are now changed again and if we had tried to comply with Z we'd have just been screwed again.
This is why factories, power plants, and whole industries are just shutting down. You've f'ed them. They feel f'ed. And when you talk to them about their unreasonableness... you have to understand that to them... this talk of unreasonableness is coming from the person or entity or political faction that just f'ed them repeatedly.
So you get different reactions.
1. Lots of businesses just tip the chess board over, throw all the pieces in the air, show you the bird, and walk away. They're gone. And they're not coming back.
2. Some businesses cut deals. They pay people off. They find the politicians or political groups that effectively are terrorizing their industry and they make a deal. This works out well sometimes but it's extremely unstable. See all those solar panel companies that are going bankrupt in the US? Well, they built their whole business model on being protected and loved by their "friends"... when that stopped they died. Building a business on the love of politicians only works for weapons contractors and labor unions.
There are other models and permutations but generally those are the two big reactions when this sets in...
We're beyond tired of being lectured to by the likes of such people. Nothing is ever enough and anything short of absolute obedience to their latest edict equals total moral excommunication... you either bow or you're a demon.
Well, f' it then. If the choice is be your bitch or be a demon then so be it. We'll sharpen our horns, oil our leathery wings, and breath fire.
You want to get real... we'll get real. You want to play make believe and cast pathetic character assassinations against anyone that doesn't kowtow... Game on.Comment is buried, click here to see the rest.
davidnivenFeb 5, 2012
You just rocked U2CANFAIL's world with all those facts and logic.
salbatrossFeb 5, 2012
If by "all those facts and logic" you mean "an anecdote," then yeah.
davidnivenFeb 5, 2012
No. I mean actual facts and logic which liberals are powerless to refute.
Now, when you refer to anecdotes, then you are talking about the left's best arguments. Gottcha!Comment is buried, click here to see the rest.
u2canfailFeb 5, 2012
I have worked at many a facility, that can easily show the extra cash they now have from becoming environmentally friendly. It did cost to set up, but the payoff is huge. 1 small example: Subaru even sells it's "dust from the welding area", by the way. (Basically extra cash for free, now.)
The man had one example, their are others. You obviously have nothing to talk about here, at all.
karmashockFeb 6, 2012
and if we sold the dust from our welding area, which we do already... you'll leave us alone?
See, the lie here is that if we just did that ONE thing we'd be left alone. But there is ALWAYS another thing we have to do. You keep moving the goal posts. And there is never any consideration for how many times in the past we've moved heaven and earth to meet the last set of conditions. So we're constantly in this state of "you're evil" no matter what we do.
So screw it. You can sit in the dark and shiver.Comment is buried, click here to see the rest.
u2canfailFeb 6, 2012
I am not in the dark, and I have a jacket. Why are you against profit, when it comes from being environmentally friendly?
karmashockFeb 6, 2012
strawman, no one is against profit when it comes to being environmentally friendly.
jhw539Feb 5, 2012
TL,DR Don't think I missed much when you decided the entire environmental movement is identical to a handful of extremist NIMBYs. Sort of like saying EVERYONE on the right is JUST LIKE Anders Behring Breivik (or Timothy McVeigh, or Adkisson, or etc). Except I guess the far left idiots just block useful infrastructure while the far right idiots are politically motivated mass murders who have a tendency to kill women and children.
karmashockFeb 6, 2012
Doesn't matter. They're the ones in control.
That's like saying not all PETA members are as crazy as the leadership. Well, doesn't really matter when the leadership is bats**t insane and everyone else in the group follows their orders.
ultimisFeb 6, 2012
The solar plant in California wasn't shut down by a handful of extremists. You had full fledged U.S. senators coming out against it, even though it was a part of their plan several years before.
kasha34Feb 5, 2012
Who is John Galt?
jhw539Feb 5, 2012
Ouch, I like your sense of humor! Heh, that does reference another long, rambling, senseless monologue!
karmashockFeb 6, 2012
More like who is John Wong... We'll just keep outsourcing things out of the country.
It's sad but the US needs is going to keep losing the competition game until it learns it has to ACTUALLY compete.
kasha34Feb 6, 2012
WE know how to compete. It's the politicians, mostly Democrats, who pass laws and regs that make us less competitive.
Just as in the book.
Who is John Galt?
karmashockFeb 6, 2012
The greeks could make the same argument... it's not us... it's our stupid government and all the parasites.
does it matter? It doesn't. By surrendering the government we lose control and are at best spectators. THe problem with Ann Rand's book is that her solution was a comic book. She had some norse pirate in a submarine attacking the shipping of the "looters" and she had all the various producers coordinate in some master plan to undermine the system. And they all retreated to some weird hidden enclave in the mountains. I mean... come on.
The galt solution is about as practical as warp drive or time travel.
At best, it's like a child holding their breath until they turn blue. A conceit of the libertarian movement is that the statists will at some point cry uncle and give in.
They NEVER will. They could bring the whole society down to the stone age and they still wouldn't give in. I don't blame this on them... it's not an ideology thing... it's a human thing. Humans work that way.
If you want to drive these people out of power then you need to play the game better then them. Stop thinking you can win by not playing.. that's just giving up.
spatula7Feb 5, 2012
Good. It's about time people protected the environment over mindless greed. Energy should be more distributed anyway and less owned by a small number of greedy individuals. Too bad, so sad, I could care less that a bunch of oil company executives decided to rape the country side in a different way and got all upset about it when someone pointed out the environmental impact and stopped it...boo-hoo....clearly there is a need to develop an energy strategy based on a combination of environmental impact, cost, ownership and long term benefit to the people. Not a small number of executives just deciding to drop down a massive project because it gives them a huge tax break and subsidies and allows them an unfair competitive advantage in the solar market...cry me a f**king river.
karmashockFeb 6, 2012
Well, enjoy your time shriving in the dark then... because energy prices are going to keep skyrocketing as people like you become increasingly unemployable.
karmashockFeb 6, 2012
I'll also point out that this is exactly the sort of comment that proves my point. You're not interested in getting anyone to comply with the rules to save the environment. You don't care about the environment. You hate the corporations and you hate the factories and you hate industry. You've never been negotiating in good faith. The whole thing was a game from the start to destroy industry in the guise of environmentalism. Nothing will ever be enough because it will only be enough when they're destroyed. Then theoretically idiots like you will be in charge and things will only get more desperate and ugly from there on out as you fail, people get scared, and you hold on to your ill gotten power at the barrel of a gun.
Think I'm exaggerating? It's already happened many places in the world. You're not remarkable. We are the exception to the rule. People like you are common. And where ever you take over everything turns to crap.
The good news is that you're pretty stupid and as soon as enough people grasp that you're basically a horrible human being and should be manipulated... things go much more smoothly. The europeans are actually getting rather good at it. They like to trick you by agreeing with you, telling you how much they like you, passing whatever law you want, and then either not enforcing it or putting in a loophole that makes compliance optional. They do that with a lot of things. It works on the simple.
Our policies are more direct and less evasive but arguably more effective. In any case, you're respected no where on the face of this earth. Even countries you would count as a friend to your ideology are merely practiced in lying to you. They've found that to be an efficient defense.
realcoolguy9022Feb 4, 2012
Bjorn Lomborg is someone you should probably look into. His Documentary Cool It is up on Netflix and I thought it was great.
Mark_LincolnFeb 4, 2012
Had the poll be done 50 years ago the results would be the opposite.
rvm4Feb 5, 2012
The argument against trying to ameliorate global warming is the same one previously used against removing lead from gasoline, DDT from the ecosystem, mercury from coal emissions... If nine out of ten scientists say we need to be concerned about something, why do so many people cling to that last scientist's opinion?
u2canfailFeb 5, 2012
It could be, they have an agenda?
I write my tbag rep on this all the time just for fun. She had her grand daughter in all of her commercials, talking about the poor girl, (who will be inheriting millions) having to pay the deficit. I remind her, her grand daughter won't live without clean air or water, if she is a human being. The deficit will not matter is she is dead. (Of course, she may not be human at all.)
PS Most of the "canned responses" are not even on the topic. I guess she does not have any on the environment. I know she hates health care reform though, in spades. ( I like that, wish their was a public option.)
yurmutha412Feb 5, 2012
Democrats have solved the environmental problems. We all become homeless and starve because there's no jobs. The evil corporations move to another country. Problem solved.Comment is buried, click here to see the rest.
u2canfailFeb 5, 2012
They went already, in case you didn't notice. You did not volunteer to work for $1 a day. You could have saved jobs, yarmutha. You and your buddies in a company owned dorm, your family at the poor farm!
yurmutha412Feb 5, 2012
They're still leaving. It's not all one dollar a day. Many corporations are moving to Canada which has high wages but low taxes. Corporations are the enemy for the Democrats. 4 more years and there won't be anything left and the Dems will still be spewing hate about corporations.Comment is buried, click here to see the rest.
u2canfailFeb 5, 2012
I am for dropping the corporate tax rate to match Canada and most other developed nations, but "all loopholes gone" including stupid tax subsidies at the federal level. We would have far more income. And taxes are not an environmental issue, in case you don't know what the topic is on this post.