liveleak.com— F-16, call sign Stroke 3, dodging 6 SAM launches during Desert Stor m. This is some INTENSE footage. Skip to the 3 minute marker for the action.
But I would highly recommend watching the entire thing
Feb 4, 2012View in Crawl 4
agreed. that's a genuinely brave man. i likely would have shat my flight suit about the first near-miss and puked into my helmet afterward from the adrenaline, but he goes on to dodge five more missiles. very well done.
yet IRAN still somehow thinks that they have any chance in hell of beating the USA in a war and bringing about an age of islam. it would be laughable if it wasnt such a serious matter.
Amazingly intense. Listen to what the g-forces are doing to the pilot at around the 6:15 mark. Go and read the account of the air battle that day too. Very interesting.
Yeah it is significantly more stressful, the enire time the pilot was evading he was trying to maintain consciousness by flexing his legs againsts his inflating flight suit to keep blood flowing to his brain. Pilots are usually exhausted after a sortie and must be helped from the plane, only to do it again and again after refuel, rearm, and a candy break. Yep, candy keeps them going.
The pilot switched to A-A (air to air mode) on the intergrated keyboard panel. The wiggly line flowing from the two Concentric circles is a bullet track that predicts the trajectory of the bullets off the bore sight of the gun and position of the aircraft. He was probably about to strafe a ground target or put holes in air threat.
The was on A-G at 2:10 prior to that. I wonder if that is what got them painted in the fist place. Right at 4:10 it looked like there was a hit. Obviously not enough. If I heard correctly two where hit leaving the pilot and one other viper 15000 feet above him, evading for his life too! WOW!
Dude, this was an EPIC Intel Failure! Picture some weeny on the ground, with his feet kicked up, eating a ham sandwich, checking his chart, and keying the radio "Stroke 3, the target is clear..." Meanwhile, Stroke 3 is up at altitude, pulling Max Gs, pushing military power, s**tting his pants, and saying to himself "Bitch, the target IS NOT clear! I repeat IS NOT clear..." Man, how many times does this happen in a warfare day...
"At this time, the 388th TFW F-16’s were hitting the Nuclear Research Centre outside of the city, and the Weasels had fired off all their HARMs in support of initial parts of the strike and warnings to the 614th F-16’s going further into downtown went unheard. The F-15’s also provided air cover and departed with the first part of the strike group. Again, a warning that went unheard. Without knowing it 614th TFS F-16’s were all pretty much alone in downtown Baghdad with no air cover and no electronic support assets. " From the linked essay about the deployment.
Keep this in mind: The sweet spot for tight turns on an F-16 depending on what they are carrying is around 400-450 knots.You can see air speed vertically on the left side of the HUD. At the very top of that scale is a small float number that is the indication of G-Forces on the plane. Unskilled pilots black out at around 6-7Gs and if you're lucky to see anything above 9g you're probably damaging the plane. So from 2:10 when they got the first spike until the END of this video, while evading 5 missiles, this guy was averaging a constant 6Gs. While trying not to crash, looking for the other pilots that weren't hit, watching the threat indicator for more units painting him, getting a visual for the units he may have to hit, and the original mission, all at the same time. Also, based on the CCIP two minutes into the video I doubt the SAMS were the target in the first place. This means they weren't armed with simple Mavs or anything that could easily take out the SA-2s. They were probably carrying CBUs or Marks and A-A.That's probably why he went to guns. Get it? Rather than waste the A-G on hostile that weren't the mission targets, he'd rather plug them with the cannon! Now that's pimp! I hope Iran is paying attention. Its not just the Seals and Drones they need to worry about. These guys are f**kin' super heroes! And... Isreal just bought a ton of F-16s recently. Isreal!
Nope, those planes have never seen combat. The F16 is an amazing jet and until I see an F22 or F35 pull off some s**t like in real combat, I still believe they are outclassed by the F16. New age jets rely on stealth. F16s relied on being able to kick ass and fly home in one piece.
SA2s are *really* old, like vietnam era. They are ancient, and in practice only about one in 30 fired in get an actual kill. You don't want to be that one for sure, and this is still scary as crap as those missiles are freaking huge, fast, and smokey.... I'm kinda surprised HARMs didn't take em out first, but I'm sure they did soon after :)
well if you even partially understand those white lines they are intense!! at the top you can see compass direction in the middle you have art horizon and his ascent and decent angle and rates etc.. IE it "shows" you what the plane was doing and it was doing a lot of doing :-)
I commend the amazing piloting of this well trained pilot.
I am disgusted by the politicians who illegally PUT that pilot in harms way for their own gains.
I can't be mad at the iraq's since they were just doing both their job and their DUTY to protect their nation (even if they are scumbags)
Congress has the power to:
"To define and punish Piracies and Felonies committed on the high Seas, and Offences against the Law of Nations;
To declare War, grant Letters of Marque and Reprisal, and make Rules concerning Captures on Land and Water;
To raise and support Armies, but no Appropriation of Money to that Use shall be for a longer Term than two Years;
To provide and maintain a Navy;"
The Constitution does not declare war. Congress does. No explicit format is given for that declaration, ergo, it has been argued, that the war powers authorization are de facto declarations of war.
Interestingly enough, a standing army is pretty much ruled out, isn't it? A navy is pretty clearly called out for, however.
Thanks, starjots. I see if was someone else's corporation in that instance. You can't blame me for wondering though, considering all the weapons our fine corporations sold Iraq before the war.
He wasnt jsut wondering, he was purposefully trolling with inflammatory ideas. It would have taken him all of 5 seconds to find out himself. Rather then try to find facts, he posted wrongly and uselessly.
They're freaking out because the truth hurts. The fact is America has become a militaristic freakfest. Our military is full of a bunch of welfare queens sucking away our tax dollars for a tidy corporatist profit.
If you dare mention the fact that the military-industrial complex is wildly out of control... they freak out.
If these chumps ever watched this WHY WE FIGHT documentary, their tiny pea brains would explode.
And unlike our father's generation... the next generation of Americans is very eager to abandon all you ungrateful halfwits to your fate.
Think we invented war or that the world would be peaceful if those nasty Americans just went away?
Well... you're going to find out. We're going to abandon you. And we'll sit on our continent alone and watch the world return to "nature." See what happens when the US military or some similar power isn't providing a military deterrent. Every two bit dictator on earth will make a power grab. Why not... it's free land and it goes to whomever is most ruthless.
And while your cities are on fire, your sisters are getting raped, and you're doubtless burning in some ditch with a hole in your head... we'll be eating popcorn and remembering when you spat upon us for trying to make the world safe.
I know you probably think this is all hyperbole. So be it. I'm not threatening to harm your people. I'm threatening to ignore you pleas for help.
Four generations of Americans... since my great grand father's time have been called to fight in foreign wars the US could avoid if only it let people like you be enslaved or exterminated. Four generations of Americans have come to your defense. You clearly take this service for granted. Our blood and treasure that have gone to your salivation means nothing before you ingratitude. Very well.
Perhaps there shall be no fifth generation to support you. The money we send over seas to keep peace will dry up. Our firm hand against the various belligerent powers will be removed. All allies will be informed that we will come to the defense of none.
Do you hear that? That's the sound of the winter wind and the howling of the wolves.
Yeeeaaah. . . but you're ignoring the ways in which our military might, and meddling in the world have created the conditions such that if we withdraw to a strictly defensive position, we leave a world which will fall into chaos (for a time). We perpetuate the very need that exists for our soldiers to die overseas.
not to mention that if we don't use ordinance then the military won't be using the latest greatest as congress won't buy it. in todays war the guy who has the best smartest weapons wins.
Not true. We tend to upgrade our tech even when not at war.
As they say, if you wish for peace, prepare for war.
There is no surer way to bring war upon your people then to not be ready for it. Weakness invites aggression.
If we've accomplished nothing else in the "War on Terror" it is that we have shown that we are not a paper tiger. Our teeth are long and our eyes are keen. We simply sleep when not attacked... but waking us tends to be fatal. Imperial Japanese learned that and Osama learned that.
Every so often great powers must "show the flag"... make it clear they exist, they are capable, and if pushed can carry out their will.
That said... perhaps the US no longer desires that role.
We have grown tired of these wars and the ingratitude of ignorant foreigners naive in the security we have provided for nearly a century... Perhaps a few generations of winter would give them an appreciation for the lazy days of summer.
no... clinton fought a major war in eastern europe which could have spiraled out of control. obama kept our contribution in libya to a minimum. this is about how its done.
bush wanted the type of war he created. it was a domestic and military disaster.
when you have air superiority you win. you have air superiority when you can shoot down your opponent before he sees you. its what we've done for a long time now. its the reason the isreali's shot down 90 syrian migs without loosing any aircraft.
You have not contradicted anything I said or made a topical comment on the subject.
You just randomly attacked republicans as if your one term senator knows more about foreign policy then anyone with an R after his name because he has a D after his. Your bigotry has gotten the better of you. For your own personal growth, you might want to take care of that.
bulls**t. my claim is that republicans create the kinds of war they desire. when demacrats are called on to do that superpower thing it doesn't spiral out of control... because thats the way they want it.
Remove a strong authority such as the US from the world stage and you're going to get chaos. It will not stop being chaos until another power steps in and does the same thing.
Think they're going to be fairer then the US? Try negotiating with the chinese, Russians, Iranians, etc about what is "right."
The international community such as it is only exists because the US wanted it to exist. Prior to that, you had a series of nation states, dictators, and warlords that didn't so much form a community as rival wolf packs that vied for power. Remove the US which stepped in for the british empire and the world will politically return to what it was before the british empire created stable international trade.
Do we perpetuate our need? Not really. What perpetuates it is the weakness of the international community.
Europe has underfunded it's military and so have most countries in the world. After all, they don't need to invest in strategic security when the US provides that service for free. As such, that is what perpetuates the need for the US. Does our existence allow them to do that? Yes. However, what is the alternative? Let the slugs dry out in the sun for lack of our shade? Well that's all we can do... so we can either do as our fathers, grand fathers, and great grand fathers did... and provide the shade. Or we can as many in my generation suggest remove it and let them see what it's like without any protection at all.
if europe is attacked the skies will be black with american helicopters.
at this moment in time however... i think its more likely that america will need our european allies to end the civil war being conducted by the right wing and its growing number of mercinaries... contractors...Comment is buried, click here to see the rest.
Please make more sense and take less LSD. Your comment made no sense.
1. The US will not attack europe. Despite our differences we are close allies and the very worst we would do is ignore them. Attack them though? Why... that's just so irrational and ignorant I don't know where to start with it.
2. There is no civil war in the US.
3. If there were a civil war the armies of europe are far too anemic to do anything about it.
4. It is actually the left wing invalidating the constitution and violating individual rights that is causing problems.
5. Mercenaries pose no strategic threat to the security of the United States. We're just too large and they're too few. Furthermore, mercenaries work for pay which means surviving to enjoy it. Look at the world, how many Mercenary companies have taken contracts AGAINST the US? Just about none. There were some protecting Gaddafi in Libya but they were Eastern European and they were mostly fighting against Libyans... not Americans. In fact, when the Americans started getting serious they all left. The only mercenaries after that were African mercenaries which were mostly cannon fodder.
6. Contractors are not a threat to the strategic security of the United States. The US is a customer and they provide a service. That is the relationship. Do they market goods to our military that we might not need? Of course... does your pizza delivery company try to up sell you some brownies to go along with your pizza? Same thing. Is that a sign of an evil conspiracy? Not unless you're stupid.
i'm not attacking europe... i'm supporting europe. :D
your answer just demonstrates your inability to sort out whats been said. assuming my statement was ambiguous... taken as a whole you should have no trouble putting it all into context. you couldn't. your need was to see it in what ever way makes the least sense. that need is so strong you completely reversed yourself on the question of whether we should support our allies.
if you don't perceive that regular americans... see what republicans are doing as undermining the u.s. then you are missing the discussion altogether. the right has done everything it can to make it impossible for both clinton and obama to govern. bush lied about the need to go to war... when trying to figure that one out one of the explanations that makes the most sense is that it was an attempt to bankrupt and collapse the economy. that was later confirmed by admission during the debt ceiling debacle. not increasing the debt ceiling in order to collapse the economy was a direct threat to our allies. collapsing the economy of the western world is something that europe needs to act on and its the attack by the right on the u.s. government that is creating that situation.
collapsing the economy to shrink government using a means that isn't legislative is easily seen as a civil war. if you don't think that is the way its seen then you don't perceive the world correctly. you and the rest of the right are acting against the constitution and everything else we believe in.
you're too biased to have a rational discussion with on any political issue.
You think clinton and obama never make mistakes and everyone just did everything the emperor said all would be well.
You ignore that this is a democracy and we have a right to influence policy. These men were not elected to be King. They were elected to be president. Those are totally different jobs.
You have the mentality of a peasant. You are unworthy of your citizenship by your ignorance, by your sniveling obedience to a throne that only exists in your mind.
:D you pretend to have this populist opinion... then you say,
"You have the mentality of a peasant. You are
unworthy of your citizenship by your ignorance,
by your sniveling obedience to a throne that
only exists in your mind."
it seeps out of every pore.
this is simply history. clinton fixed reagan/bush presidencies. bush left obama a mess of unparallelled size. obama is cleaning it up but you can't give him credit.
At you? Not at all. We help you because we have compassion. Because we care. Because we believe in a safe, productive, and free world.
What I am is increasingly apathetic. I'm not mad... I'm just disappointed in you. Your life. The life of your civilization... means less to me then it did before.
I will not strike out at you. But if you scream for help as the wolves close in... I may ignore you.
all the condescending bulls**t just confirms the idea that the right is a bunch of dysfunctional, grandiose sociopaths that need to be put back in the closet for the sake of peace. you thrive on chaos.
rowlodgeFeb 4, 2012
better than watching a movie.
jonahsullivanFeb 4, 2012
agreed. that's a genuinely brave man. i likely would have shat my flight suit about the first near-miss and puked into my helmet afterward from the adrenaline, but he goes on to dodge five more missiles. very well done.
jaketyson85Feb 5, 2012
yet IRAN still somehow thinks that they have any chance in hell of beating the USA in a war and bringing about an age of islam. it would be laughable if it wasnt such a serious matter.
suzukichopperFeb 5, 2012
"i likely would have shat my flight suit about the first near-miss"
No, you likely would have just plummeted to earth on fire after the first "near-miss".
jonahsullivanFeb 5, 2012
yes. one very good reason why i wouldn't ever be in that position in the first place. =)
crashdvisFeb 4, 2012
Amazingly intense. Listen to what the g-forces are doing to the pilot at around the 6:15 mark. Go and read the account of the air battle that day too. Very interesting.
darth0Feb 4, 2012
Yea, based on his breathing he was pulling some serious G's.
crashdvisFeb 4, 2012
He couldn't even talk on the radio. The rest of his flight was calling him and he couldn't even respond. The guy was doing some serious flying.
mtownFeb 4, 2012
Apparently flying a fighter jet is a bit more stressful than Battlefield 3 has lead me to believe.
Also what was that long wiggling line on the HUD near the end of the video?
assassyn360Feb 5, 2012
Yeah it is significantly more stressful, the enire time the pilot was evading he was trying to maintain consciousness by flexing his legs againsts his inflating flight suit to keep blood flowing to his brain. Pilots are usually exhausted after a sortie and must be helped from the plane, only to do it again and again after refuel, rearm, and a candy break. Yep, candy keeps them going.
The pilot switched to A-A (air to air mode) on the intergrated keyboard panel. The wiggly line flowing from the two Concentric circles is a bullet track that predicts the trajectory of the bullets off the bore sight of the gun and position of the aircraft. He was probably about to strafe a ground target or put holes in air threat.
ins0mniakdsFeb 5, 2012
The was on A-G at 2:10 prior to that. I wonder if that is what got them painted in the fist place. Right at 4:10 it looked like there was a hit. Obviously not enough. If I heard correctly two where hit leaving the pilot and one other viper 15000 feet above him, evading for his life too! WOW!
assassyn360Feb 5, 2012
Trained at Luke AFB AZ.
musixrockFeb 5, 2012
Yeah, up the road a bit. I used to see these cats walk into Fry's (kroger) all the time when I was a kid. Dope video...
iphonequeFeb 4, 2012
Dude, this was an EPIC Intel Failure! Picture some weeny on the ground, with his feet kicked up, eating a ham sandwich, checking his chart, and keying the radio "Stroke 3, the target is clear..." Meanwhile, Stroke 3 is up at altitude, pulling Max Gs, pushing military power, s**tting his pants, and saying to himself "Bitch, the target IS NOT clear! I repeat IS NOT clear..." Man, how many times does this happen in a warfare day...
vladamirFeb 5, 2012
"At this time, the 388th TFW F-16’s were hitting the Nuclear Research Centre outside of the city, and the Weasels had fired off all their HARMs in support of initial parts of the strike and warnings to the 614th F-16’s going further into downtown went unheard. The F-15’s also provided air cover and departed with the first part of the strike group. Again, a warning that went unheard. Without knowing it 614th TFS F-16’s were all pretty much alone in downtown Baghdad with no air cover and no electronic support assets. " From the linked essay about the deployment.
ins0mniakdsFeb 5, 2012
Keep this in mind: The sweet spot for tight turns on an F-16 depending on what they are carrying is around 400-450 knots.You can see air speed vertically on the left side of the HUD. At the very top of that scale is a small float number that is the indication of G-Forces on the plane. Unskilled pilots black out at around 6-7Gs and if you're lucky to see anything above 9g you're probably damaging the plane. So from 2:10 when they got the first spike until the END of this video, while evading 5 missiles, this guy was averaging a constant 6Gs. While trying not to crash, looking for the other pilots that weren't hit, watching the threat indicator for more units painting him, getting a visual for the units he may have to hit, and the original mission, all at the same time. Also, based on the CCIP two minutes into the video I doubt the SAMS were the target in the first place. This means they weren't armed with simple Mavs or anything that could easily take out the SA-2s. They were probably carrying CBUs or Marks and A-A.That's probably why he went to guns. Get it? Rather than waste the A-G on hostile that weren't the mission targets, he'd rather plug them with the cannon! Now that's pimp! I hope Iran is paying attention. Its not just the Seals and Drones they need to worry about. These guys are f**kin' super heroes! And... Isreal just bought a ton of F-16s recently. Isreal!
theghoulFeb 4, 2012
Holy s**t!
"Fuuuck! There goes another one! Stroke 3 defending again!!"
wow..that was intense.
Closed AccountFeb 4, 2012
that's why america rules...we have some kickass pilots who can fly like a bat outta hell.
promote this man to F/A-18 SUPERHORNET.
bdbrFeb 4, 2012
You'd make him join the Navy?
Closed AccountFeb 4, 2012
my mistake. i thought the usaf had some hornets. they dont. so they can promote him to an f-22 or an f-35.
johnomazzFeb 5, 2012
Nope, those planes have never seen combat. The F16 is an amazing jet and until I see an F22 or F35 pull off some s**t like in real combat, I still believe they are outclassed by the F16. New age jets rely on stealth. F16s relied on being able to kick ass and fly home in one piece.
couragewulfFeb 4, 2012
"How was your day dear?"
Not bad sweetie. Went supersonic, dodged 6 missiles, pulled a f**k ton of G's, you know...an average Tuesday. How was girls night?
melthornalFeb 4, 2012
Lost two good friends...
badsyntaxFeb 7, 2012
SA2s are *really* old, like vietnam era. They are ancient, and in practice only about one in 30 fired in get an actual kill. You don't want to be that one for sure, and this is still scary as crap as those missiles are freaking huge, fast, and smokey.... I'm kinda surprised HARMs didn't take em out first, but I'm sure they did soon after :)
frostwrathFeb 5, 2012
Good heavens.
mixreFeb 4, 2012
Joining the ranks of those who logged in JUST to comment on this. Sooo badass. *Salute*
AMERICA, f**k YEAH!
thelostviking22Feb 4, 2012
I logged in at work JUST so I could comment and digg this story. What a badass!
markalibbyjrFeb 4, 2012
nice aiming idiots lol
smpaisnutrientsFeb 4, 2012
Not really intense footage, just a bunch of gray and white blurs. Intense AUDIO maybe.
nerysFeb 4, 2012
well if you even partially understand those white lines they are intense!! at the top you can see compass direction in the middle you have art horizon and his ascent and decent angle and rates etc.. IE it "shows" you what the plane was doing and it was doing a lot of doing :-)
I commend the amazing piloting of this well trained pilot.
I am disgusted by the politicians who illegally PUT that pilot in harms way for their own gains.
I can't be mad at the iraq's since they were just doing both their job and their DUTY to protect their nation (even if they are scumbags)
bdbrFeb 4, 2012
How was it illegal? This is the first Gulf war, authorized by UN Resolution 678.
http://www.cfr.org/un/un-security-council-resolution-678-iraq-kuwait/p11205?breadcrumb=%2Fregion%2F408%2Fkuwait
You could have just as easily looked it up before making the claim.
nerysFeb 4, 2012
its illegal because nothing in the constitution authorized such use of our military. Iraq was no threat to us.
The only slightly valid claim would be that kuwait asked for help but SH asked us first and we said "go ahead we won't get involved"
yeah right.
either way the actual REASON for the engagement was one of financial gain so it was on its face unlawful.Comment is buried, click here to see the rest.
whatever01Feb 5, 2012
Congress has the power to:
"To define and punish Piracies and Felonies committed on the high Seas, and Offences against the Law of Nations;
To declare War, grant Letters of Marque and Reprisal, and make Rules concerning Captures on Land and Water;
To raise and support Armies, but no Appropriation of Money to that Use shall be for a longer Term than two Years;
To provide and maintain a Navy;"
The Constitution does not declare war. Congress does. No explicit format is given for that declaration, ergo, it has been argued, that the war powers authorization are de facto declarations of war.
Interestingly enough, a standing army is pretty much ruled out, isn't it? A navy is pretty clearly called out for, however.
nerysFeb 5, 2012
yes it is. in the VERY OATHS they take in order to hold officer.
The protect and defend the constitution (NOT THE USA) from all enemies within and without..
all of their decisions are legally and morally governed and judged by that oath.
for us to "TELL" iraq go ahead take kuwait we won't interfere JUST SO we can have an excuse to goto war with him MAKES THE WAR INVALID.
Especially when these war actually CREATE the very dangers for which it is their duties to prevent. ie that is treason.
its not the Military's fault. They are literally doing their jobs following orders.
Its the people issuing those orders. The president Congress and the corporations who bought them.
theghoulFeb 4, 2012
You know this was real and not Ace Combat for Playstation 3 right?
cowicideFeb 4, 2012
I wonder if our boys were dodging the same missiles our wonderful corporations sold to Iraq for a tidy profit?
starjotsFeb 4, 2012
SA-2s and SA-3 surface to air missiles used in this engagement were provided to Iraq by the Soviet Union during the Iran Iraq War. So no.
cowicideFeb 4, 2012
Thanks, starjots. I see if was someone else's corporation in that instance. You can't blame me for wondering though, considering all the weapons our fine corporations sold Iraq before the war.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_support_for_Iraq_during_the_Iran–Iraq_war#SupportComment is buried, click here to see the rest.
crashdvisFeb 4, 2012
Can't blame you? You make an assumption and you were wrong. yes we can blame you.
razorsfuryFeb 4, 2012
He was just wondering... jeez...
spire3660Feb 4, 2012
He wasnt jsut wondering, he was purposefully trolling with inflammatory ideas. It would have taken him all of 5 seconds to find out himself. Rather then try to find facts, he posted wrongly and uselessly.
razorsfuryFeb 4, 2012
@spire3660
rolls eyes*
cowicideFeb 5, 2012
They're freaking out because the truth hurts. The fact is America has become a militaristic freakfest. Our military is full of a bunch of welfare queens sucking away our tax dollars for a tidy corporatist profit.
If you dare mention the fact that the military-industrial complex is wildly out of control... they freak out.
If these chumps ever watched this WHY WE FIGHT documentary, their tiny pea brains would explode.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=9219858826421983682
cowicideFeb 5, 2012
I see that you're perfectly capable of being a d**kh**d. Congrats.
nickymouseFeb 4, 2012
It was likely an Al Hurriyah SAM. With parts mainly produced by either Russia or France. However, it doesn't matter what I say.
gnysgthartmanFeb 4, 2012
He probably went on to bomb Iraqi civilians the next day.
p.s I just love pissing off you yanklets :)
massivetatasFeb 4, 2012
Nah, they are waiting for you to visit.
angrycat70Feb 4, 2012
and we like cluster bombing you f**ks
melthornalFeb 4, 2012
Actually a lot of these issues came from them being unwilling to jettison their bombs out of fear of hurting innocent civilians.
karmashockFeb 4, 2012
And unlike our father's generation... the next generation of Americans is very eager to abandon all you ungrateful halfwits to your fate.
Think we invented war or that the world would be peaceful if those nasty Americans just went away?
Well... you're going to find out. We're going to abandon you. And we'll sit on our continent alone and watch the world return to "nature." See what happens when the US military or some similar power isn't providing a military deterrent. Every two bit dictator on earth will make a power grab. Why not... it's free land and it goes to whomever is most ruthless.
And while your cities are on fire, your sisters are getting raped, and you're doubtless burning in some ditch with a hole in your head... we'll be eating popcorn and remembering when you spat upon us for trying to make the world safe.
I know you probably think this is all hyperbole. So be it. I'm not threatening to harm your people. I'm threatening to ignore you pleas for help.
Four generations of Americans... since my great grand father's time have been called to fight in foreign wars the US could avoid if only it let people like you be enslaved or exterminated. Four generations of Americans have come to your defense. You clearly take this service for granted. Our blood and treasure that have gone to your salivation means nothing before you ingratitude. Very well.
Perhaps there shall be no fifth generation to support you. The money we send over seas to keep peace will dry up. Our firm hand against the various belligerent powers will be removed. All allies will be informed that we will come to the defense of none.
Do you hear that? That's the sound of the winter wind and the howling of the wolves.
Regards from the Arsenal of Freedom.
kwanijmlFeb 5, 2012
Yeeeaaah. . . but you're ignoring the ways in which our military might, and meddling in the world have created the conditions such that if we withdraw to a strictly defensive position, we leave a world which will fall into chaos (for a time). We perpetuate the very need that exists for our soldiers to die overseas.
starmanjonesFeb 5, 2012
not to mention that if we don't use ordinance then the military won't be using the latest greatest as congress won't buy it. in todays war the guy who has the best smartest weapons wins.
karmashockFeb 5, 2012
Not true. We tend to upgrade our tech even when not at war.
As they say, if you wish for peace, prepare for war.
There is no surer way to bring war upon your people then to not be ready for it. Weakness invites aggression.
If we've accomplished nothing else in the "War on Terror" it is that we have shown that we are not a paper tiger. Our teeth are long and our eyes are keen. We simply sleep when not attacked... but waking us tends to be fatal. Imperial Japanese learned that and Osama learned that.
Every so often great powers must "show the flag"... make it clear they exist, they are capable, and if pushed can carry out their will.
That said... perhaps the US no longer desires that role.
We have grown tired of these wars and the ingratitude of ignorant foreigners naive in the security we have provided for nearly a century... Perhaps a few generations of winter would give them an appreciation for the lazy days of summer.
starmanjonesFeb 5, 2012
no... clinton fought a major war in eastern europe which could have spiraled out of control. obama kept our contribution in libya to a minimum. this is about how its done.
bush wanted the type of war he created. it was a domestic and military disaster.
when you have air superiority you win. you have air superiority when you can shoot down your opponent before he sees you. its what we've done for a long time now. its the reason the isreali's shot down 90 syrian migs without loosing any aircraft.
karmashockFeb 6, 2012
your post is not a comment to my post.
You have not contradicted anything I said or made a topical comment on the subject.
You just randomly attacked republicans as if your one term senator knows more about foreign policy then anyone with an R after his name because he has a D after his. Your bigotry has gotten the better of you. For your own personal growth, you might want to take care of that.
starmanjonesFeb 6, 2012
@karmashock
bulls**t. my claim is that republicans create the kinds of war they desire. when demacrats are called on to do that superpower thing it doesn't spiral out of control... because thats the way they want it.
it directly rebuts your point with specifics.
karmashockFeb 7, 2012
No, that doesn't actually address anything I said. You're starting a different argument.
I might as well start refuting you by talking about swiss cheese or something.
Get on topic so you have a point or you don't have a point.
karmashockFeb 5, 2012
Sure, and eating perpetuates life.
Remove a strong authority such as the US from the world stage and you're going to get chaos. It will not stop being chaos until another power steps in and does the same thing.
Think they're going to be fairer then the US? Try negotiating with the chinese, Russians, Iranians, etc about what is "right."
The international community such as it is only exists because the US wanted it to exist. Prior to that, you had a series of nation states, dictators, and warlords that didn't so much form a community as rival wolf packs that vied for power. Remove the US which stepped in for the british empire and the world will politically return to what it was before the british empire created stable international trade.
Do we perpetuate our need? Not really. What perpetuates it is the weakness of the international community.
Europe has underfunded it's military and so have most countries in the world. After all, they don't need to invest in strategic security when the US provides that service for free. As such, that is what perpetuates the need for the US. Does our existence allow them to do that? Yes. However, what is the alternative? Let the slugs dry out in the sun for lack of our shade? Well that's all we can do... so we can either do as our fathers, grand fathers, and great grand fathers did... and provide the shade. Or we can as many in my generation suggest remove it and let them see what it's like without any protection at all.
starmanjonesFeb 5, 2012
if europe is attacked the skies will be black with american helicopters.
at this moment in time however... i think its more likely that america will need our european allies to end the civil war being conducted by the right wing and its growing number of mercinaries... contractors...Comment is buried, click here to see the rest.
karmashockFeb 5, 2012
Please make more sense and take less LSD. Your comment made no sense.
1. The US will not attack europe. Despite our differences we are close allies and the very worst we would do is ignore them. Attack them though? Why... that's just so irrational and ignorant I don't know where to start with it.
2. There is no civil war in the US.
3. If there were a civil war the armies of europe are far too anemic to do anything about it.
4. It is actually the left wing invalidating the constitution and violating individual rights that is causing problems.
5. Mercenaries pose no strategic threat to the security of the United States. We're just too large and they're too few. Furthermore, mercenaries work for pay which means surviving to enjoy it. Look at the world, how many Mercenary companies have taken contracts AGAINST the US? Just about none. There were some protecting Gaddafi in Libya but they were Eastern European and they were mostly fighting against Libyans... not Americans. In fact, when the Americans started getting serious they all left. The only mercenaries after that were African mercenaries which were mostly cannon fodder.
6. Contractors are not a threat to the strategic security of the United States. The US is a customer and they provide a service. That is the relationship. Do they market goods to our military that we might not need? Of course... does your pizza delivery company try to up sell you some brownies to go along with your pizza? Same thing. Is that a sign of an evil conspiracy? Not unless you're stupid.
Make sense.
starmanjonesFeb 5, 2012
i'm not attacking europe... i'm supporting europe. :D
your answer just demonstrates your inability to sort out whats been said. assuming my statement was ambiguous... taken as a whole you should have no trouble putting it all into context. you couldn't. your need was to see it in what ever way makes the least sense. that need is so strong you completely reversed yourself on the question of whether we should support our allies.
if you don't perceive that regular americans... see what republicans are doing as undermining the u.s. then you are missing the discussion altogether. the right has done everything it can to make it impossible for both clinton and obama to govern. bush lied about the need to go to war... when trying to figure that one out one of the explanations that makes the most sense is that it was an attempt to bankrupt and collapse the economy. that was later confirmed by admission during the debt ceiling debacle. not increasing the debt ceiling in order to collapse the economy was a direct threat to our allies. collapsing the economy of the western world is something that europe needs to act on and its the attack by the right on the u.s. government that is creating that situation.
collapsing the economy to shrink government using a means that isn't legislative is easily seen as a civil war. if you don't think that is the way its seen then you don't perceive the world correctly. you and the rest of the right are acting against the constitution and everything else we believe in.
karmashockFeb 6, 2012
you're too biased to have a rational discussion with on any political issue.
You think clinton and obama never make mistakes and everyone just did everything the emperor said all would be well.
You ignore that this is a democracy and we have a right to influence policy. These men were not elected to be King. They were elected to be president. Those are totally different jobs.
You have the mentality of a peasant. You are unworthy of your citizenship by your ignorance, by your sniveling obedience to a throne that only exists in your mind.
starmanjonesFeb 6, 2012
@karmashock
:D you pretend to have this populist opinion... then you say,
"You have the mentality of a peasant. You are
unworthy of your citizenship by your ignorance,
by your sniveling obedience to a throne that
only exists in your mind."
it seeps out of every pore.
this is simply history. clinton fixed reagan/bush presidencies. bush left obama a mess of unparallelled size. obama is cleaning it up but you can't give him credit.
gnysgthartmanFeb 5, 2012
You guys mad?
Looks like my comment worked. :)
Job done.
karmashockFeb 5, 2012
At you? Not at all. We help you because we have compassion. Because we care. Because we believe in a safe, productive, and free world.
What I am is increasingly apathetic. I'm not mad... I'm just disappointed in you. Your life. The life of your civilization... means less to me then it did before.
I will not strike out at you. But if you scream for help as the wolves close in... I may ignore you.
starmanjonesFeb 5, 2012
all the condescending bulls**t just confirms the idea that the right is a bunch of dysfunctional, grandiose sociopaths that need to be put back in the closet for the sake of peace. you thrive on chaos.
karmashockFeb 6, 2012
I think you forgot to include a point in your post.
Don't forget a point otherwise there isn't one.