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touchy610Sep 2, 2011
I'm wondering how the shirt could possibly be depriving anybody of their rights, or even causing a disruption. It's a statement. Kinda like the same as "Like chocolate? Fine by be." or "Female? Fine by me."
Someone should actively experiment with the rules by wearing something subtly homophobic, and see what the school says.
garryfieldsSep 2, 2011
"Where can I buy one of those?"
anub1sSep 2, 2011
Gay? Keep it to yourself. Wouldn't call it hateful, or discriminatory, but seems just enough to the other side of the argument.
garryfieldsSep 2, 2011
It's actually pretty hateful to tell someone that who they are is so grossly offensive that it should be kept to themselves.
anub1sSep 2, 2011
Christian? Keep it to yourself. Would this be considered hateful as well?
The statement is "I don't care what or who you are, I just don't want to hear about it." I'm fairly sure this is what most people want when it comes to divisive topics like sexual orientation and religion.
garryfieldsSep 2, 2011
It kindof is, yes.
People should be allowed to wear their "Jesus RULES \m/" t-shirt if they want. I don't see what's wrong in expressing part of who you are in t-shirt form (even if it's silly and I would never do it). As long as people aren't running up to you and screaming "I'M GAY AND IF YOU DON'T LIKE IT SUCK MY DICK (please)!" then why should they have to keep it to themselves?
anub1sSep 2, 2011
By that same token, it should be perfectly acceptable for people who take the opposite stance to wear a t-shirt of their choosing as well. It's just as much my right to tell you to shut the f**k up as it is yours to tell me that I'm going to burn in hell for not going to church (hypothetically speaking of course).
If you have a right to an opinion and expression of that opinion, it can't solely be the positive ones that are accepted. The law doesn't work one way in that regard.Comment is buried, click here to see the rest.
garryfieldsSep 2, 2011
But that's putting words in a person's mouth. Not every Christian (nor most, really) believe that not going to church/being Christian means you'll go to hell.
I mean, for a pro-gay t-shirt, you could easily by the same token make the assumption that it is telling Christians that their religion is stupid and they are stupid for following it. But this does not follow necessarily from words themselves, so there's really no reason to believe they do. Don't project.
And we're not talking about wearing these shirts out in public, are we? If that's what we were discussing, I would tell you that I don't give a f**k and that people can wear whatever they want. But we're not, we're talking about a school. Schools have every right to have dress guidelines, I don't see why not. But restricting the wearing of clothing with slogans such as this has no effect other than lowering the morale of gay students.
devnulldoodSep 2, 2011
I dont think one should broadcast their tolerance or intolerance for sexual preference any more than someone should broadcast their tolerance or intolerance for someones race or religion. If you allow one you have to allow all.
MiraclesWorksSep 1, 2011
hmmmmmmmmm..... isn't it deprivation of Sara's rights to restrict her from wearing such shirt????????? tsk tsk..
TommyWarnerSep 1, 2011
yeah!! restricting her to wear such shirt is a form of deprivation!!!
garryfieldsSep 2, 2011
No, but it is f**king stupid of them.
thezonerSep 1, 2011
that shot of the principal is a little too weird for me
bobert5696Sep 2, 2011
I went to a Catholic high school and even we would have been allowed to wear that shirt...
pustulio42Sep 2, 2011
I guess no one actually clicked through to the article and saw the update that the principal admitted there was no disruption and is no longer banning the shirt.
berdsSep 2, 2011
my favorite part of this story is that its an old t-shirt.
motozeroSep 2, 2011
Ok, here is where this generation does not get it. If this was my high, there would be 100's of kids wearing gay themed shirts and acting very "homo" just to say f**k YOU! This is a grade A example of gay hate. f**k gay hate, I think it is about time we start throwing some hate back at these evil people. We out number them!
garryfieldsSep 2, 2011
I don't want to sound like a bad fake-proverb, but I'm pretty sure fighting hate with hate isn't such a good idea.
motozeroSep 3, 2011
No, your right, but it is still really mean how they hate this perfectly normal group of people.
devnulldoodSep 2, 2011
How is this "gay hate"? The principal is smart enough to realize that he is responsible to keep the peace at his school. Any kind of sexual, racial, or religious advertisement at School is asking for scrutiny and other problems from people who disagree with the lifestyle.
Gay people need to stop trying to make themselves victims. Wah! I cant wear a T-shirt! People must hate me because i'm gay!Comment is buried, click here to see the rest.
phesenSep 2, 2011
This is why schools should have mandatory uniforms - this is going to cause a stupid ruckus and probably cause the school to lose money and time.
poesprogenySep 2, 2011
Hey, I'm all for her being able to wear that shirt provided other students are able to wear T-shirts with the confederate flag or maybe a quote that says "Gay? I think you're a deviant." Free speech is free speech, right?
What if someone wore a hat or shirt that said "Illegals, go home!", would you all be for that as well?
And before you ultra liberal Digger's vote this down, at least let us know what for what reason you're burying it. Is it that you think all people shouldn't be able to voice their opinion or that you think people don't have the right to different opinions to begin with?
Like I said, I'm down with it as long as everyone's free to express what they think, just not the "enlightened few"
garryfieldsSep 2, 2011
This is a school, and as such they have the right to restrict students from wearing certain clothing if there is a logical basis for it; the only basis for this decision is either ignorance, prejudice, or fear of some imaginary ruckus that may be raised. And those are not valid reasons.
In-general, though, yes, feel free to wear offensive shirts, I don't care.
poesprogenySep 2, 2011
I think it's fantastic that you think that anyone who's wearing something that you believe displays ignorance or prejudice can be told they can't wear it. And, who gets to decide what's ignorant or has prejudice? So, it's exactly like I said, you folks are all about free speech as long as it agrees with your line of thinking. Thank you for making my point.
garryfieldsSep 2, 2011
You seem to be missing the key factor here: THIS. IS. A. SCHOOL.
I think people should be allowed to wear whatever the f**k they want to wear... in public. But this is a school. Schools are allowed to make such rules about clothing, and for good reason. But, as I said, only if there is good reason for it. The principal says that it endangered the student to wear it, but could not back up this claim. As such, this can only be a decision made from ignorance and prejudice.
Who gets to decide? Well, who gets to decide that it's right for black people to not be enslaved? Who gets to decide that someone is still human if they have Downs? Society, that's who. And society, by and large these days, says that being anti-gay is ignorant and prejudiced.
Have a nice day.
poesprogenySep 2, 2011
No, you are the one who obviously doesn't get the point. You're okay with someone being able to express their opinion "Hey, being gay is fine by me." But, if someone wore "Hey, being gay is not fine by me" you would deem that as ignorance or prejudice, hence no one should be able to wear it. Read your own comments.
I agree with you on one point. This. Is. A. School. So, nobody should be able to wear anything with any kind of social or political statements on it. Period, full end stop. Nothing should be allowed no matter which end of the opinion spectrum it falls.
But, if you allow one, then you should allow them all.
garryfieldsSep 2, 2011
Tell me how "gay is ok" is a comparable statement to "gay is not ok." One is a statement with no meaning other than acceptance, tolerance and love. The other has no meaning except intolerance and hate, even if it is viewed as morally correct intolerance and hate by those who would don the slogan. It is exactly the same as a shirt that says "WASPs are ok" and a shirt that says "WASPs are not ok." A t-shirt with a message with no hateful associations except those that insecure people project on it is a totally different thing from a t-shirt with a hateful message, no matter how accepted the hateful message is within some circles.
talcosSep 2, 2011
Compare "Gay? Fine by me." and "Gay? I think you're a deviant."
The latter is antagonistic towards LGBT individuals. The former isn't antagonistic towards anyone; if the shirt said "If you don't support gay people, I think you're a homophobe" it most certainly would be antagonistic, but clearly it doesn't say that.
Students are required to treat each other with respect even when they disagree with one another. Advocating a view that holds that certain students are inherently inferior to others and are not deserving of same respect is not conducive to a safe, productive learning environment. A school has a valid reason to ban shirts that say things like "Gay? I think you're a deviant" and "If you don't support gay people, I think you're a homophobe".
Meanwhile, a school does not have a valid reason to ban a shirt that says "Gay? Fine by me." because it doesn't advocate a negative belief. The same could be said of a shirt that said "Love the earth, recycle!" or "I <3 Jesus."
poesprogenySep 2, 2011
Oh, so freedom of speech is only fine when the message is either "nice" or agrees with your particular view.
So, let's back off what you call "antagonisitc". What if it said "Gay? not fine by me." Is that better?
I love how freedom of speech is just hunky dory when it comes to advancing liberal causes that go against the norm of our culture, but when someone decides to stand up against that agenda advancement they're labeled with names like racist, homophobe, intolerant, etc.
For instance, when people voiced their concerns that Obama was a socialist, lot of "enlightened" folks said that was just code for the "N" word. But, you know what? Maybe it was just that he's a socialist.
garryfieldsSep 2, 2011
This is a school. Not a public sidewalk or whatever. Your talk of freedom of speech doesn't apply here.
poesprogenySep 3, 2011
Sure it does. If someone can express their opinion on a subject, then someone else can express an opposite opinion. Garry, it's apparent that you are just as intolerant of people's opinions and right to free expression as you believe some of us are with regard to your lifestyle.
talcosSep 2, 2011
Honestly, yes, I think it would be more acceptable. Ceteris paribus, so long as the message isn't devaluing other students it should be allowed. There's a difference between "I have issues with the subject of homosexuality" and "homosexuals are deviants."
What I was getting at is that while students don't shed their constitutional rights when they walk into the classroom, administrators do have leeway in so far as they have to maintain a safe, productive learning environment.
nickcompoopSep 2, 2011
It's Alabama, what do you expect?
jonwhSep 2, 2011
As a native and resident of the state of Alabama I was going to comment and tell you how wrong you are. However, after thinking about it I realize you're right. I'm so tired of the people in this state the classless mindless rednecks who drag their knuckles around all day trying not to hurt their brain with too much thought.
withearsSep 2, 2011
Dear Alabama, I am so glad that I turned that job down. Your state f**king sucks and is full of idiots.
devnulldoodSep 2, 2011
Dear withears
You weren't in the running anyway. But at least your resume was good for a laugh.
Alabama
withearsSep 2, 2011
Dear Alabama, while that was a nice attempt at humor, you are still filled with rednecks and bigots.
Call me when you join the 20th century.
Withears.
reaper527Sep 2, 2011
if a school was able to suspend kids for wearing an american flag shirt last year, claiming that it "distracts from education", than this is clearly within the school's power as well.
anyone claiming these shirts wouldn't be a distraction is simply unrealistic. these types of things need to be allowed across the board, or blocked across the board.
smithstiSep 2, 2011
this is good http://www.genaturals.com
barackalypseSep 2, 2011
Where was the Southern Poverty Law Center last year when students wearing American flag t-shirts at a California high school were censored and ordered to take their shirts off or go home on May 5? Oh, that's right, the SLPC doesn't care about censorship, it only cares about its favored victims classes.
http://www.nbcbayarea.com/news/local/Students-Wearing-American-Flag-Shirts-Sent-Home-92945969.htmlComment is buried, click here to see the rest.
chilidogsSep 2, 2011
It's convenient how you left out the part where they were intentionally antagonizing people on Cinco De Mayo.
barackalypseSep 2, 2011
I specifically mentioned the date, but completely disagree they were intentionally antagonizing anyone. They were exercising their right of self-expression to support their Country. They are as entitled to do it on an important holiday in another nation as they are any other day. If the school forbade students from wearing shirts with the Mexican flag you can bet the SLPC would have gotten involved, just like it did here.
talcosSep 2, 2011
I speak both as a resident of Jefferson County and as the boyfriend of the man in charge of the LGBT youth organization that produces the "Gay? Fine by me." t-shirt (small world, I know!), so I have my biases. Also, for those of you who don't know, the controversy was resolved soon after the SPLC contacted the school; the school is now allowing Sara Couvillon to wear the t-shirt.
Anyway, what gets to me is that the school made an issue about it in the first place. Sara had been wearing that shirt for a year before the administration brought the matter up; in that time, the shirt had caused no disruption and no one complained about it. Furthermore, the t-shirt's message is innocuous: on the front you see "Gay? Fine by me.", and on the back you have a description of the organization that produced the t-shirt (the Birmingham Alliance of Gay, Straight, and Lesbian Youth, a youth organization run out of a local church). The message on the shirt is meant to be a message of tolerance and acceptance - it's no more "pro-gay" than it is "pro-straight"; it's not a political statement.
devnulldoodSep 2, 2011
I disagree. The T-shirt is a walking advertisement for homosexuality.
talcosSep 2, 2011
Elaborate on what you mean by an advertisement.
"Gay? Fine by me." means "I am tolerant of gay people." It says nothing of the wearer's sexual orientation (there are about as many heterosexuals who own and wear that shirt as there are non-heterosexuals). Furthermore, it isn't trying to push a belief onto anyone else; if it were, it would be phrased something more like "intolerance of gay people is wrong!"
devnulldoodSep 2, 2011
It's an advertisement for "the Birmingham Alliance of Gay, Straight, and Lesbian Youth".
Tolerance needs to be taught by the parents, not in schools. If you allow just anybody to teach tolerance, the version will vary based on the individuals opinion. I don't want my childeren learning someone else's version of Tolerance.
This is a controversial subject and I dont want it skewed by someone else's emotional opinion. And since its so controversial, I dont want my children dealing with it at school. I would rather them be focusing on their education.
garryfieldsSep 2, 2011
"Tolerance needs to be taught by the parents, not in schools."
It's pretty obvious that this is untrue, since parents teach their children to be bigots all the time.
devnulldoodSep 2, 2011
Well if that's the case. That is their prerogative. Freedom of speech doesn't only pertain to tolerance of gays. It also protect the right of anti-gays. One doesn't have to hate gays in order to disagree with the lifestyle.
If a child were to wear a shirt that said" Polygamy! Is alright with me" or "Animal Sex! Thats my BAAAAAG!" Would it be any different?
garryfieldsSep 2, 2011
It's also the responsibility of the education system to prepare students for adulthood. Adulthood means working with other people and not being prejudiced against certain groups of people based on nothing at all. As such, schools have every right to teach things which are opposed to the students' parents' views. We don't not teach evolution because there are creationist parents.
As for your examples (which aren't really comparable, but ok, people love to throw these things into the same group nonetheless), a pro-polygamy shirt would be fine by me, even though I don't agree with the lifestyle at all. A shirt saying "polygamists are evil and will go to hell" would be just terribly unacceptable.
A shirt talking about bestiality would not be okay, because 1) you shouldn't be having t-shirts talking about sex in school anyway, and 2) bestiality is f**king bestiality. stop comparing it with homosexuality goddamn, people.
talcosSep 2, 2011
"It's an advertisement for "the Birmingham Alliance of Gay, Straight, and Lesbian Youth".
My point is that it's not an advertisement for "homosexuality" as some monolithic entity. Your initial wording confused me, that's all.
"This is a controversial subject and I dont want it skewed by someone else's emotional opinion. And since its so controversial, I don't want my children dealing with it at school. I would rather them be focusing on their education."
If your kids go to public school, they're going to have to interact with gay, straight, black, white, Jewish, Christian, etc. students and teachers. Exposure to different points of view is an inevitable part of the educational experience.
I don't see this as an intrusion in to the parent's domain though. At the end of the day students have to be able to respect each other for their differences and move on or it will interfere with their ability to succeed in school.
poesprogenySep 2, 2011
So, would you be okay with someone wearing a t-shirt in school that said "Gay? That's not fine by me." That wouldn't be a political statement, just a message of that person's own personal beliefs.
Would that be okay with you?
devnulldoodSep 2, 2011
No It would not be OK with me. I want a school to be about teaching math, english and such. Let me teach my kids tolerance, religion and polotics.
garryfieldsSep 2, 2011
And if you happen to teach your kids that non-whites, non-Christians and non-Republicans are all evil beings that need to be shunned and are destined for hell?
What then? Are we just supposed to accept your stupid, ill-taught, bigoted children into society without so much as a counter-point? No, sorry, but if you have a right to teach your children to be assh**es, we have a right to teach them that YOU are an assh**e (indirectly, of course).
poesprogenySep 3, 2011
You're contradicting yourself at every turn garry. You tell me above that we shouldn't be allowed a point of view if it isn't supportive or displays what you believe to be "intolerance or hate". But, now you say that you all should be allowed your point of view if we are going to express ours.
As always, just like other liberals, you've tried to alter the conversation. I never said anything about your right or the girl's right to wear the shirt or express your/her views. My point was that everyone's point of view should be allowed no matter whether you like it or not or even if you think it's hateful and intolerant or not. That's free speech. And my point was also that if one group's view is going to be suppressed, then everyone's mouth needs to stay shut.
Your statements here illustrate the labeling that liberals love to use if someone disagrees with them. If I am not okay with the gay lifestyle and I don't believe in gay marriage, that's not hate. That's just me disagreeing with your point of view.
If we took your point to its logical conclusion we should be accepting or supportive of any abhorrent behavior lest we be accused of being hateful or intolerant.
forsakenwombatSep 2, 2011
Or the principal could be saving everyone's ass. If it's allowed for her to wear a pro-gay shirt, wouldn't it be equally allowable to wear an anti-gay shirt? If it's OK for one side of an issue, it has to be OK for the other side. Isn't that the definition of equal rights?Comment is buried, click here to see the rest.
garryfieldsSep 2, 2011
Pro-gay shirts do not support the suppression of any one group's rights.
forsakenwombatSep 2, 2011
Freedom of speech is freedom of speech. The funeral protesting clowns, disgusting though they may be, have the right to their bigoted and hateful speech. Stifling one side while allowing the other to speak freely, regardless of the issue, is a dangerous precedent to set.
garryfieldsSep 2, 2011
Schools are allowed to set rules like this, though. They have every right to bar students from wearing hateful slogans, but there is no reason to bar non-hateful slogans -- other than hate itself. Or ignorance. Pick your poison.
forsakenwombatSep 2, 2011
So when the next principal takes over who happens to be anti-gay, he has a precedent to fall back on to further his agenda? I'm not arguing her right to wear the shirt, only that if she can wear it, wouldn't someone then be able to wear something similar that's pro-hetero? All I see is a principal trying to keep his students focused on learning. Very few social issues are debated civilly anymore, as one eloquent commenter stated earlier, "f**k gay hate, I think it is about time we start throwing some hate back at these evil people." Is this not common these days? People no longer agree to disagree. It's now agree with me or you should die.
garryfieldsSep 2, 2011
No, because anti-gay slogans promote hate and/or discrimination towards gay students. Pro-gay slogans do no such thing to non-gay students. If kids are distracted by such a low-key shirt, then perhaps they should stop staring at this chick's chest and turn back towards their work.
forsakenwombatSep 2, 2011
Absolutely agree that they should just do their damn work and quit worrying about it. But as opposed to anti-gay, what about pro-hetero? Would that still be hate? Would it be any less divisive?
garryfieldsSep 2, 2011
Certainly it depends on the wording of it. If it's a slogan associated with anti-gay sentiments or which is generally not-nice in respect to other sexual orientations, then no thanks. But that goes the same for pro-gay slogans that are also anti-straight. I wouldn't be for a shirt that says "gays are cool, straights suck" anymore than one that says "straights are cool, gays suck."
melthornalSep 2, 2011
If the shirt said "Straight? Fine by me." Who cares. If a shirt said "God hates fags." Then it would be banned. There really isn't a blurry line here like you are trying to pretend there is. it is quite simple. If the message is constructive, then it is fine. If it is hateful, then it is not fine. Who cares about the specifics? If it said "Black? Fine by me." Or "Lawyer? Fine by me." Or "Football player? Fine by me." Who cares.
forsakenwombatSep 2, 2011
@ melthornal, I'd really like to disagree. It's only OK if it's either completely innocuous (lawyer) or in favor of a minority (black). If it turned into "White? OK by me" that person would be racist. By giving examples on the two extremes you're trying to prove that there is no grey area. My whole point with this situation is to one person, a shirt that said "Straight, OK by me" would be just fine. Someone else would interpret this as anti-gay. When things are open to interpretation, someone will always find a way to be offended. The principal is just trying to avoid conflict.
poesprogenySep 2, 2011
A t-shirt that says "Gay? not fine by me" isn't suppressing the rights of a group of people. It's just a message expressing that person's opinion. I could have a t-shirt that spouts several of my beliefs, but expressing my opinion isn't the same thing as suprressing someone's rights. Waaayyyy different. You can be as gay as you want to be and I can say that it's not fine by me because my right to free speech is just as valid as yours.
I find people who take your position extremely hypocritical. You demand your right to voice your opinion about things some of us find repugnant or detrimental to this country or our culture, but you don't share the same tolerance for our right to express our views.
barackalypseSep 2, 2011
The Southern Poverty Law Center isn't interested in equal rights. You know this because 4 high school students in California were sent home for wearing American flag t-shirts on May 5. That's 4x the amount of censorship here. The only difference is these kids weren't one of the SLPC's special victim classes.
http://www.nbcbayarea.com/news/local/Students-Wearing-American-Flag-Shirts-Sent-Home-92945969.htmlComment is buried, click here to see the rest.
aserer511Sep 2, 2011
students have never enjoyed full rights their parents have in public basic education. this is not new.
gkiltzSep 2, 2011
That's one BIG change in recent years.
When I was in High School, we WERE able to apply the first amendment in school, so that we LEARNED how to do it when we got out on the streets. Now my generati9on believes in the bill of rights . Since then there has been a whole generation brought up to believe that the Bill of Rights doesn't apply to them.
BuckSwallowsSep 2, 2011
When I was in school Big Johnson & Coed Naked t-shirts were pretty popular. Nobody was allowed to wear those in the building. So what's the prob here, the school's dress code or the message on the shirt?Comment is buried, click here to see the rest.
garryfieldsSep 2, 2011
Someone either didn't read the article or is being willfully ignorant (it's the latter).
turebloodlalacrownSep 2, 2011
Please give me a digg
garryfieldsSep 2, 2011
I gave you the opposite of one, is that alright?