thechoice.blogs.nytimes.com— Dale J. Stephens, the founder of UnCollege, explains why high school graduates would do well to skip the college experience.
Feb 2, 2012View in Crawl 4
I got my first jobs by putting projects I did as a hobby on my resume. Now, I've done so much professionally there's not much room or need for hobby stuff except to show that programming is something I like to do.
That's fine if you don't want to go to college (maybe) but you better be doing some impressive, resume worthy things.
College just certifies through an independent third party that you're not an idiot. If you can demonstrate your non-idiocy through hobby projects and the ability to communicate like an intelligent human being, then you might convince people you're worth something on your own.
I have a degree in math and will have a master's in secondary education. I have them because they get you past HR. Also, it turns out you learn things in college you may not even realized you needed to know or even existed to be known.
Interesting article. I skipped college due to certain circumstances in my life at the time and ended up in a better place career-wise than most of my peers in the short term - all of whom went to great schools but ended up job hunting as the recession hit. Many are working at Starbucks or hopping into a Masters' program of some sort to postpone the inevitable student loan payments while I've been gaining valuable job experience for over five years.
One of the problems with not getting your degree (as I'm finding out now) is that is limits your ability to move up in an organization and make more money (although there may be a few exceptions).
Even if you have the personality and ability to flourish in a career-path, you often need that piece of paper to satisfy a company's internal requirements for the job or simply to match yourself with other candidates vying for that position. Also, I've found myself turned down for numerous positions (specifically consulting gigs) that my superiors said they'd love to have me in but the clients I'd be working with required the individual have a college degree. Mind you, these positions pay twice what I'm making now.
Long story short: I'm going back to college - not because I'm sure I'll learn a lot but because if I want to move ahead in my field, I need it. The author may be right about not needing a degree for self-employment, but when it comes to working in a large organization this kid doesn't know what he's talking about.
This is good first hand testimony right here. I work on large contracts. When we specify the employees that are allowed to be hired it is very specific. There is a specific classification for each position and each position has specific requirements. In many cases a degree is one of the requirements. In some instances the contractors already in place that are doing the job have to be let go when the new contract is awarded because of the hiring standards that are put in place.
almost pains me to read this, but I'll digg you up for the info. I cannot tell you how many times I've been passed up for advancement only because some frat-bro has his BA in Inebriation from San Diego State and I don't. It's....wait for it....sobering.
Advice from a 20 year old on what to do with the rest of your life? Yes because he has sooo much life experience to draw from, am I right?
Listen kids, do the smart thing and go to college, but just make sure you pick the right subject to get a degree in. I seriously doubt i would be making 6 figures without my degree in Mechanical Engineering. My wife on the other hand doesn't have a degree and even though shes a manager for a large retail chain, she still makes less than 1/3 of what I do.
That's more or less what I was going to say. In some fields (like engineering) a degree is essential; actually, a graduate degree is almost essential for advancement. I run into very smart people everyday who are underemployed because of their lack of degree. I used to teach an (evening) undergrad class in a engineering technology program at a local college. Most of the students were 30-40 year olds who had peaked in their careers and needed a degree to advance further. Being an undergrad at that age is very hard work.
Some folks may be able to do well without any post-secondary education, but if you want to play the odds you need some type of degree/certification (not necessarily a four year degree).
I taught a senior level undergrad engineering class a few years ago. I have a daughter shopping for colleges. I am a member of the school accountability committee at my daughter's high school. I work with (and mentor) new engineering grads on a regular basis. I know how to use capital letters and punctuation.
you're completely right. taking up a bulls**t major with no rising demand in sight is going to get you nowhere but into debt. However, taking up a major that has high demand will, as you know, bring you a healthy paycheck.
not to mention unemployment for those with a degree is much lower than those without; and continues to shrink with higher degrees.
this guy is making assumptions off his own experience and extrapolating out a completely false conclusion
You're right in terms of economic realities; however, a major isn't bulls**t just because there isn't "rising demand in sight." Some people study things in order to learn about them.
Very true. If someone has the time and resources to study a subject without the prospect of future employment they should consider themselves fortunate and take advantage of that opportunity. There are several things I would like to study, the trick is having the free time and the disposable income at the same time (we usually only have one or the other).
There's job growth in; security specialist, weapons op, demolitions, weapons designer, bomb sniffing dog trainer, x-ray scanner technician, repo, outsourcing specialist, credit counseling, and of course -- being an MBA to help companies find shortcuts.
Sometimes the OTHER specialties we could train ourselves in, aren't all that attractive.
...Or you can learn how to program for a smart phone.
It's good to here positive options -- but it also is important to recognize the hopelessness or other strategies. If someone is just trying to cop out by saying NO to college -- that's wrong, but if they are trying to get a head start as an entrepreneur, it's more work but it can also pay off.
Those are all growing fields ... at the moment. Do you know which of those will be around in 40 years? If you want to go that route, you have to keep one eye on the next opportunity and be willing to change with the times.
Getting a degree just because of high demand and high pay expectations isn't always a good idea, especially if it's a technical degree. The worst thing you can possibly do is get into debt for a career-oriented degree for a career field that you later realize you hate.
Most degrees can get you somewhere with hard work. Statistics can't tell the whole story, because they don't tell us how hard people are working to make use of their education after college. Degrees that aren't career-specific require a higher degree of creativity and exploration to make use of on the job market, but they also allow more flexibility. For hardworking, talented people who don't want to commit to a career track at 18, "bulls**t" arts and humanities degrees are an excellent choice. Every day I work around a ton of people with humanities backgrounds who are doing quite well because they're smart and they work hard.
Really, the only bad degrees are vocational degrees in dying or extremely overcrowded fields. Anything else is worth the time and money if you're the type of person who knows how to make use of the resources the degree gives you.
Our current college bubble is caused by so many people getting college educations.
Yes, most are in subjects that are almost useless, but they took those subjects because they're not smart enough to take a useful one. The smaller group is people who took a subject because they truly enjoy it, but now they're screwed because there's too many people in their field, even if most of them are bad.
Some people should go to college and some people shouldn't. When every one goes to college, it causes the cost of college to rise. This is why college is so f'n expensive. On top of that, now we have people with a ton of debt and they're still barely better off than skipping college.
On top of it, you have that whole issue with humans that we don't like to give up once we've vested into something. Someone goes to college, tries to take a useful major, finds out it's too hard. Now that they can't go any further, they switch majors. Not wanting to acquire too much more debt, they take one of the easier ones. They don't want to drop out of college because they've already put a bunch of money into it, only to find out it won't help them anyway.
I'm an optimist and a realist. While I think education is VERY important, I also understand that it's not free and it costs A LOT of money. I would love to hear some good arguments against what I said because the optimist in me still wants people to better themselves.
Good points, not everyone should enroll in a four year college/ university. Some people do go to college for the wrong reasons and don't get anything out of it. Some people would be better off with some other type of post-secondary education. Some people do better if they take off a couple of years after high school. A traditional college/ university is a large investment; no one should spend $50 - $100,000 and 4+ years of their life without understanding why they are doing it.
That said, I do think almost everyone needs some type of post-secondary education to be competitive in the job market. Everyone from auto techs to hairdressers to truck drivers to police officers will have a problem getting their first job without some type of credentials. Once upon a time, high school prepared people for decent entry level jobs; that is no longer the case. It is a very unusual high school graduate who can talk him or herself into a job with a chance of advancement.
As someone who teaches in the humanities, I wholeheartedly agree. Many majors have been dumbed down simply because there are too many people enrolled in them who really aren't capable of college-level work. It's a problem that's destroying the university system.
Well, sometimes 20-year-olds know something that us 40-year-olds don't.
Times change -- and merely going with "tried and true" sometimes works -- but sometimes it just means you stood still while the world moved around you.
Watch out, or one day you will be that kind of person who says; "In my day we used to...." and of course; "Get off my lawn you punks!"
Except, we 40 somethings (and 50 somethings) are still the ones doing the hiring. If you want a job in a technical field, you are going to have to show a piece of paper to some old guy or you won't even get a chance to talk your way into a job. ;-)
And a word to the 20-something: You are competing against overseas talent (esp in engineering fields) and the next gen will face even more competition. A good degree in a good field gives you an edge.
I disagree. Other countries are constantly trying to hire engineers away from the US because we produce what they want. Countries like China and India produce a lot of "engineers" which are in fact just technicians. Still valuable, but not competing for the same jobs as engineers. In fact, one of the guys I went to college with did an internship with a company in China because the "engineers" they hired couldn't do simply engineering work. They're good at technical assemblies and field work, but the vast majority of them don't have the skill set to do true engineering. Also, keep in mind that I'm refering to real engineering degrees here, and not software programming, which some people try to say is engineering despite the fact that they're not licensed and not accredited as an engineering degree.
I do not have a degree and have had jobs earning about twice what your wife earns (assuming you are in the lower 6 figure range).
I've known plumber and electricians that have earned $75k and beyond without degrees (hell one of them did not even have a high school diploma). So it really depends on what field you are talking about.
I will say that having a degree will never be a bad thing, but not having one might hinder you in some cases.
Well to be fair engineering degrees have a significantly higher pay rate than other majors (especially ME and ChemE). That being said, if you want to work in any sort of science or technology related field, you absolutely should go to college, just not one of the ridiculously overpriced private ones. Those are the ones that aren't returning any longer.
I can relate to how Mr. Stephens feels. I am currently an education major and understand where he is coming from. The problem is that it's very difficult to get a decent paying job without a degree. The only way I see you could make great money without going to college is by starting your own business, but there is no guarantee that you will make a dime.
The guy brings up some valid points, and yes you can be successful without college. However, I wouldn't advise my daughter to skip college. Without college, I sure as hell wouldn't have my cushy job at a law firm. Some companies DO value education and all the personal experience and skills in the world won't convince them to hire you without having a degree to back you up. If your goal is to be a trash man then, well yeah, skip college. Case by case basis.
There is something to be said for that. We have been so higher learning centric that many of the trades are are depleted and now pay big bucks. A marine diesel mechanic can make 50k a year.
This right here is the basic truth. Most companies I have worked for would hire someone known and recommended by an existing employee over someone off the street. This is why networking is so valuable. If you know someone in the company that will vouch for you then you just jumped over all the others who don't.
My point is not this exactly. It's just that with the advent of extremely fast personal computers and the internet, we should be capable of centralizing and organizing and puitting all the relevant course materials online... and maybe creating local testing facilities. I know it's kind of being done right now, but it needs to be done more. The old way of everyone driving to these places just seems terribly inefficient with our current supply of oil.
I think which degree you have is not too much important. The important thing is you have got degree in your interesting field or not? How much you perfect in your field.
If you will get degree in your interesting field then you will be blossom in that field and no one can catch you to get more money.
So, as per my thought degree is important but is that degree in your interested field, is more important.
unless u are a natural talent like bill gate or marc zuckerberg then GUARANTEED u will get farther by going to college. i would not be in the top 1% right now if i hadnt gotten my masters in biz finance. so yeah if u think u can compare to either of them then by all meens, skip higher education!
On topic, there are no guarantees. I found college to be no more difficult than high school which quite frankly was an intellectual snoozefest. I quit and did something challenging instead. Now I do something else and while I'm not in the top 1% (not a goal of mine to be frank,) I do perfectly fine for myself with minimal effort. That allows me to challenge myself with distractions that are of interest. I am probably better educated than the majority of college graduates, too.
That is not to say that I completely disagree with your barely legible scrawling. Most people need the extra few years of high school education to survive in the world. The degree is also becoming a must have item for those who don't stand out on their own. Of course those people aren't the ones smart enough to start their own businesses either...or learn a trade for that matter.
I don't want people to think that I am trashing all colleges. Some schools are worth your time *if* you apply yourself. Some degrees are worth a lot more than others as well. A blanket statement that a degree (along with the associated debt) is better than all other alternatives other than getting lucky and starting a massive company like Facebook is simply foolish.
Yes morons. Please don't go to college. It will reduce demand which will bring down costs and it will also make it easier for my kids to get jobs after they go to college because there will be less competition.
I look at my kids, and I figure there is NO WAY I can save $200,000 to get them into college when it's their turn. Unless trends change -- it's far too expensive.
If they get into programming, or better yet, hire smart people in an effective way and start their own business -- college isn't going to help them make more money. It's just a way to become a good worker for SOMEONE else. A company that likely lobbied to pay less taxes so that you spent more to become educated.
Take the same money you would spend on a University, and find on-line courses, podcasts and tutorials. It's not as well-rounded as a University -- but having 6 years of college and a well-rounded education; it might make you a more interesting person, but people don't pay for that.
It's about survival now, and if we ever get these things under control, where people can afford to enrich themselves -- it's a good thing to go to college. But it's a luxury -- and a waste of time if you need to make money.
That is very dependent on the field. Maybe you can do well in programming without a degree today, but what will that job market look like in 40 years? I know too many 50 year olds who are stuck in staff positions because they don't have the right piece of paper.
Starting your own business is great, I did it after getting an undergrad degree, working for other people for 20 years, gaining lots of experience, gaining lots of contacts, and having my former employer pay for grad school. I never would have gotten my foot in the door without an undergrad degree; and I would probably earn about 1/4 of my current income.
My advice to my kids is to get as much diverse education as possible while including an area that will help you get a job when you graduate. No one knows what the job market will look like in 30 years, it's unlikely they will still be using the same specific skills. They also need to learn how to think and how to keep learning.
You go to college for the degree and the only reason you want the degree is to make it easier to get a job. If you goal is actual learning, at least 1/4 your time in a degree program is spent on subjects that have nothing directly to do with your field of study. Also, its generally theory, if you want practical application technical college is what you want.
If your goal is learning, it shouldn't bother you that half your program isn't directly related to your field. A narrow education is a bad education. Maybe it would be good training, but not a good education.
I'm not immortal nor am I rich. I had 4 years to do college, so every second I wasted in a required writing class when I was already perfectly capable as a writer detracted from me learning what I was really interested in.Comment is buried, click here to see the rest.
That's what testing out of classes is for. Most colleges will allow you to test out of the big chunk of the core and move up to more advanced offerings.
But having graded my fair share of undergrad papers, most aren't perfectly capable of writing a coherent essay, so required writing classes definitely aren't a waste of time for most students.
Having read my fair share of documents written by engineers (most with graduate degrees), most students could stand to take a few more writing classes. After about 15 years, technical folks will usually advance to the point were they spend more time writing than doing the technical work they were trained for.
That's the thing though, the writing classes didn't fix the poor writing the engineers had. If someone can't write coherently by the time they hit college I really doubt 150 minutes a week for 13 weeks is going to suddenly do it.
Actually, I think engineering majors should be required to pass a serious technical writing class, not some general purpose writing class. If one semester doesn't fix it, they can take it over again until they are actually capable of producing a coherent written document. Put the class under the college of engineering (where they are not afraid to give out failing grades).
I agree that engineers (and probably most majors) need technical writing classes aimed at their field's specific needs. But many of the kids I see aren't even at the level to start learning technical writing. Half of them genuinely cannot write a cohesive paragraph that makes a coherent point. Students tend to write in a "stream of consciousness" style with no clear aim about where they're going or how they plan to get there. They just emote on a page and call that an essay.
Everyone needs general writing because general writing promotes general thinking. The basic ability to compose a simple argument about a general topic and go through it step-by-step is an indispensable one; it's really crucial for the flourishing of democracy. Students should probably have already learned to do that before college, but half of them haven't.
I agree that a general writing class is a prerequisite for technical writing. The student needs to understand the basics before learning a more specific style of writing. I hope that most high school graduates have that skill, but I'm sure that some of them do not.
It is similar the the "math problem," many college freshmen are not equipped to succeed without remedial classes. I don't know how to fix it; lowering standards is not the answer, and teaching high school material to undergrads is expensive and time consuming. I'm sure this is why it takes many students more than 4 years to complete an undergrad degree.
For what it's worth, my daughter's high school english class seems to require that their students can write a proper essay. I'm sure it's a lot more difficult for high school teachers with 35 students in a class.
I didn't do very well in my generals, but I fully enjoyed and appreciate them. I completely think they were worth it, even if they don't directly apply to my field.
I learned a lot on "how to think" and "how to research" in my classes.
Thats fine and dandy and all, but when have you ever seen a job listing that does not require a degree of some sort. I do agree with the memorizing facts part i have several IT certs which i studied for and passed but if i took those same test now i doubt i would come any where near passing.
Who is paying thousands of dollars for college? Most states have free tuition to state universities if you have the grades for it Don't have the grades? Maybe that is your first indication that you should pass go college and go straight to vocational work. Seriously, there are enough free educational opportunities out there that if you are paying for your education you are either, dumb, lazy, or rich (so it doesn't matter).
You will never have the collection of resources at your fingertips that you have during your college career. You have an opportunity to explore so much about yourself and the world through the vast collection of resources that college presents (co-ops, clubs, student groups, cultural organization, internships, the education itself,etc). On the other hand, you can go to an out of state school, pay thousands for a art history degree, and then join the occupy movement when you can't find a job. Responsibility starts with you. Once you start taking responsibility for your future, you might find that life can work out pretty well.
I don't think most states have free tuition even for most good students. In my home state, I could have gotten free tuition only at the state's cheapest (and worst) public school, and I've done very well in school from kindergarten through my PhD. And I'd have had to move away to go there and pay living expenses. (Although, you could get free tuition at any state school if you kept a C average and your parents made little enough money while you were in--get this--7th grade, regardless of whether or not they became billionaires later on).
Getting free tuition can be a crap shoot. Sometimes you get it, but you can't get it at a school that actually has a decent program in your field.
The problem isn't college, its college students. Employers aren't magically on notice when Dale J. Stephens gets his degree, nor does it somehow entitle him to a job. I went through undergraduate and law school, but unlike so many of my classmates, I didn't spend the summers on the beach or working dumb, minimum wage jobs. I started a company, I got internships with interesting, field specific employers (often for little or no pay), and I did a number of other things to differentiate myself and make myself marketable.
In then end, as with everything in life, you get out of it what you put in.
I have a great many friends who skipped college to do design work that they loved. They are now some of the best designers you can find on the market and do advertising for fashion brands and big electronics companies. The drawback is that it took them a good long time to do it. But in reality it was a wash, took them maybe 4-5 years to figure out good business practices, sort out a good work ethic, and now they are gainfully self-employed. College certainly isn't for everyone, and I for one encourage anyone to do what they feel will work best. Maybe try college for a year, don't plan a full 4 year track. Don't waste money if you don't have to.
People always say "go to college so you can get a good job". This is bulls**t. You are supposed to go to college to get an education in a field that has good jobs available for educated workers.
You pay tens of thousands of dollars for this "privilege" , in which you may or may not find a job in your field afterward though they always make it sound like it is guaranteed and you have to go if you want to get anywhere in life.
I myself did go of course, as one of the " parents never went to college so you should" crowd. Granted I went to tech school to learn practical skills, though even at the end of that I got most of my knowledge from those I worked with later because school taught me next to nothing in the end about how the real world operates.
School now doesn't mean you will have a job later, probably just a useless degree you can impress your naive friends with. Most of my friends who got degrees went on to jobs that had nothing to do with their major.
Apprenticeships need to make a comeback, study under those who already know. Most of my education came from me asking a lot of questions and trying things out on my own. There isnt really much I dont know something about these days, whether it is computers, physics, cars, chemistry, biology, etc, because I educate myself daily. I also work with fantastic and skilled people that I make a point to know everything they do.
There are plenty of success stories out there of those who didnt go to college but still became wildly successful off of their own drive alone to learn.
I dont have a business degree, but I started a business anyway, and I will just learn as I go and ask my mentors who already have successful businesses for help and advice.
I think it's more about the choice of a major rather than attendance. I sat next to people at my graduation that had no idea what they even wanted to do in life, let alone share the knowledge that they gained in college, or look for meaningful employment. The opposite of that is that my brother is a computer science master's and he had some of the toughest years studying at school (because computer science is really difficult) and now work for him is challenging but he feels that he can do anything.
I really resent that this kid (I remember when I was 20, though I am only 28 now) has the audacity to advise others and vicariously trying to convince himself that he made the right decision by dropping out. It's like he drank too much coffee and has lots to say to justify his decision, but in reality being an outcast like that is not a marketable or trustworthy skill.
In college, creativity is not stifled it's encouraged, the resources are there for your taking, and the social connections you make are often life long and meaningful.
Also, the article calls him Mr. Stephens, that's way too much credit. He is just Dale, the college drop out to me and most others.
You really have to separate yourself from the crowd in this sort of job environment. Get a high-demand degree, and work as many internships as possible, as early as possible. Do research during the year if you can get it. You'll probably have to have excellent grades to get offered this kind of research as an undergrad. If you can do related volunteer work during high school, it will help get the internships later. None of this stuff pays worth a damn so parents will foot most of the bill. This is what my kid did. It wasn't fun, but it did result in well-paying job offers.
Also, make sure you graduate in the top 5-10% of your class; which is mostly just a matter of working harder than everyone else. That will put you in a different league when looking for your first job.
Advice from a 20 year old on what to do with the rest of your life? Yes because he has sooo much life experience to draw from, am I right?
Listen kids, do the smart thing and go to college, but just make sure you pick the right subject to get a degree in. I seriously doubt i would be making 6 figures without my degree in Mechanical Engineering. My wife on the other hand doesn't have a degree and even though shes a manager for a large retail chain, she still makes less than 1/3 of what I do.Comment is buried, click here to see the rest.
kalvinbFeb 2, 2012
I got my first jobs by putting projects I did as a hobby on my resume. Now, I've done so much professionally there's not much room or need for hobby stuff except to show that programming is something I like to do.
That's fine if you don't want to go to college (maybe) but you better be doing some impressive, resume worthy things.
College just certifies through an independent third party that you're not an idiot. If you can demonstrate your non-idiocy through hobby projects and the ability to communicate like an intelligent human being, then you might convince people you're worth something on your own.
I have a degree in math and will have a master's in secondary education. I have them because they get you past HR. Also, it turns out you learn things in college you may not even realized you needed to know or even existed to be known.
thespookFeb 3, 2012
Requirements:
- Bachelor's degree required, master's degree preferred.
howdoesseanrollFeb 2, 2012
Interesting article. I skipped college due to certain circumstances in my life at the time and ended up in a better place career-wise than most of my peers in the short term - all of whom went to great schools but ended up job hunting as the recession hit. Many are working at Starbucks or hopping into a Masters' program of some sort to postpone the inevitable student loan payments while I've been gaining valuable job experience for over five years.
One of the problems with not getting your degree (as I'm finding out now) is that is limits your ability to move up in an organization and make more money (although there may be a few exceptions).
Even if you have the personality and ability to flourish in a career-path, you often need that piece of paper to satisfy a company's internal requirements for the job or simply to match yourself with other candidates vying for that position. Also, I've found myself turned down for numerous positions (specifically consulting gigs) that my superiors said they'd love to have me in but the clients I'd be working with required the individual have a college degree. Mind you, these positions pay twice what I'm making now.
Long story short: I'm going back to college - not because I'm sure I'll learn a lot but because if I want to move ahead in my field, I need it. The author may be right about not needing a degree for self-employment, but when it comes to working in a large organization this kid doesn't know what he's talking about.
howdoesseanrollFeb 2, 2012
and s**t, I had this edited down because it is TL;DR but Digg's editor timed me out so you guys get the long version.
actegFeb 3, 2012
This is good first hand testimony right here. I work on large contracts. When we specify the employees that are allowed to be hired it is very specific. There is a specific classification for each position and each position has specific requirements. In many cases a degree is one of the requirements. In some instances the contractors already in place that are doing the job have to be let go when the new contract is awarded because of the hiring standards that are put in place.
howdoesseanrollFeb 3, 2012
almost pains me to read this, but I'll digg you up for the info. I cannot tell you how many times I've been passed up for advancement only because some frat-bro has his BA in Inebriation from San Diego State and I don't. It's....wait for it....sobering.
rjeyFeb 2, 2012
Advice from a 20 year old on what to do with the rest of your life? Yes because he has sooo much life experience to draw from, am I right?
Listen kids, do the smart thing and go to college, but just make sure you pick the right subject to get a degree in. I seriously doubt i would be making 6 figures without my degree in Mechanical Engineering. My wife on the other hand doesn't have a degree and even though shes a manager for a large retail chain, she still makes less than 1/3 of what I do.
craig1958Feb 2, 2012
That's more or less what I was going to say. In some fields (like engineering) a degree is essential; actually, a graduate degree is almost essential for advancement. I run into very smart people everyday who are underemployed because of their lack of degree. I used to teach an (evening) undergrad class in a engineering technology program at a local college. Most of the students were 30-40 year olds who had peaked in their careers and needed a degree to advance further. Being an undergrad at that age is very hard work.
Some folks may be able to do well without any post-secondary education, but if you want to play the odds you need some type of degree/certification (not necessarily a four year degree).
jaketyson85Feb 2, 2012
lol craig u born in 1958? dude what do u know about a modern education?
craig1958Feb 3, 2012
I taught a senior level undergrad engineering class a few years ago. I have a daughter shopping for colleges. I am a member of the school accountability committee at my daughter's high school. I work with (and mentor) new engineering grads on a regular basis. I know how to use capital letters and punctuation.
Dude, what do you know about modern education?
jaketyson85Feb 4, 2012
crap. i pretty much just took it in the buttock.
craig1958Feb 4, 2012
LOL, all in good fun.
co7926Feb 2, 2012
you're completely right. taking up a bulls**t major with no rising demand in sight is going to get you nowhere but into debt. However, taking up a major that has high demand will, as you know, bring you a healthy paycheck.
not to mention unemployment for those with a degree is much lower than those without; and continues to shrink with higher degrees.
this guy is making assumptions off his own experience and extrapolating out a completely false conclusion
ratatratrFeb 2, 2012
You're right in terms of economic realities; however, a major isn't bulls**t just because there isn't "rising demand in sight." Some people study things in order to learn about them.
craig1958Feb 3, 2012
Very true. If someone has the time and resources to study a subject without the prospect of future employment they should consider themselves fortunate and take advantage of that opportunity. There are several things I would like to study, the trick is having the free time and the disposable income at the same time (we usually only have one or the other).
vitriolandangstFeb 3, 2012
There's job growth in; security specialist, weapons op, demolitions, weapons designer, bomb sniffing dog trainer, x-ray scanner technician, repo, outsourcing specialist, credit counseling, and of course -- being an MBA to help companies find shortcuts.
Sometimes the OTHER specialties we could train ourselves in, aren't all that attractive.
...Or you can learn how to program for a smart phone.
It's good to here positive options -- but it also is important to recognize the hopelessness or other strategies. If someone is just trying to cop out by saying NO to college -- that's wrong, but if they are trying to get a head start as an entrepreneur, it's more work but it can also pay off.
craig1958Feb 3, 2012
Those are all growing fields ... at the moment. Do you know which of those will be around in 40 years? If you want to go that route, you have to keep one eye on the next opportunity and be willing to change with the times.
pinkfish411Feb 3, 2012
Getting a degree just because of high demand and high pay expectations isn't always a good idea, especially if it's a technical degree. The worst thing you can possibly do is get into debt for a career-oriented degree for a career field that you later realize you hate.
Most degrees can get you somewhere with hard work. Statistics can't tell the whole story, because they don't tell us how hard people are working to make use of their education after college. Degrees that aren't career-specific require a higher degree of creativity and exploration to make use of on the job market, but they also allow more flexibility. For hardworking, talented people who don't want to commit to a career track at 18, "bulls**t" arts and humanities degrees are an excellent choice. Every day I work around a ton of people with humanities backgrounds who are doing quite well because they're smart and they work hard.
Really, the only bad degrees are vocational degrees in dying or extremely overcrowded fields. Anything else is worth the time and money if you're the type of person who knows how to make use of the resources the degree gives you.
benjie25Feb 3, 2012
Devils advocate here.
Our current college bubble is caused by so many people getting college educations.
Yes, most are in subjects that are almost useless, but they took those subjects because they're not smart enough to take a useful one. The smaller group is people who took a subject because they truly enjoy it, but now they're screwed because there's too many people in their field, even if most of them are bad.
Some people should go to college and some people shouldn't. When every one goes to college, it causes the cost of college to rise. This is why college is so f'n expensive. On top of that, now we have people with a ton of debt and they're still barely better off than skipping college.
On top of it, you have that whole issue with humans that we don't like to give up once we've vested into something. Someone goes to college, tries to take a useful major, finds out it's too hard. Now that they can't go any further, they switch majors. Not wanting to acquire too much more debt, they take one of the easier ones. They don't want to drop out of college because they've already put a bunch of money into it, only to find out it won't help them anyway.
I'm an optimist and a realist. While I think education is VERY important, I also understand that it's not free and it costs A LOT of money. I would love to hear some good arguments against what I said because the optimist in me still wants people to better themselves.
craig1958Feb 3, 2012
Good points, not everyone should enroll in a four year college/ university. Some people do go to college for the wrong reasons and don't get anything out of it. Some people would be better off with some other type of post-secondary education. Some people do better if they take off a couple of years after high school. A traditional college/ university is a large investment; no one should spend $50 - $100,000 and 4+ years of their life without understanding why they are doing it.
That said, I do think almost everyone needs some type of post-secondary education to be competitive in the job market. Everyone from auto techs to hairdressers to truck drivers to police officers will have a problem getting their first job without some type of credentials. Once upon a time, high school prepared people for decent entry level jobs; that is no longer the case. It is a very unusual high school graduate who can talk him or herself into a job with a chance of advancement.
pinkfish411Feb 3, 2012
As someone who teaches in the humanities, I wholeheartedly agree. Many majors have been dumbed down simply because there are too many people enrolled in them who really aren't capable of college-level work. It's a problem that's destroying the university system.
vitriolandangstFeb 3, 2012
Well, sometimes 20-year-olds know something that us 40-year-olds don't.
Times change -- and merely going with "tried and true" sometimes works -- but sometimes it just means you stood still while the world moved around you.
Watch out, or one day you will be that kind of person who says; "In my day we used to...." and of course; "Get off my lawn you punks!"
;-)
craig1958Feb 3, 2012
Except, we 40 somethings (and 50 somethings) are still the ones doing the hiring. If you want a job in a technical field, you are going to have to show a piece of paper to some old guy or you won't even get a chance to talk your way into a job. ;-)
ieatskunkFeb 3, 2012
And a word to the 20-something: You are competing against overseas talent (esp in engineering fields) and the next gen will face even more competition. A good degree in a good field gives you an edge.
helgersFeb 7, 2012
I disagree. Other countries are constantly trying to hire engineers away from the US because we produce what they want. Countries like China and India produce a lot of "engineers" which are in fact just technicians. Still valuable, but not competing for the same jobs as engineers. In fact, one of the guys I went to college with did an internship with a company in China because the "engineers" they hired couldn't do simply engineering work. They're good at technical assemblies and field work, but the vast majority of them don't have the skill set to do true engineering. Also, keep in mind that I'm refering to real engineering degrees here, and not software programming, which some people try to say is engineering despite the fact that they're not licensed and not accredited as an engineering degree.
lutianaFeb 3, 2012
I do not have a degree and have had jobs earning about twice what your wife earns (assuming you are in the lower 6 figure range).
I've known plumber and electricians that have earned $75k and beyond without degrees (hell one of them did not even have a high school diploma). So it really depends on what field you are talking about.
I will say that having a degree will never be a bad thing, but not having one might hinder you in some cases.
helgersFeb 7, 2012
Well to be fair engineering degrees have a significantly higher pay rate than other majors (especially ME and ChemE). That being said, if you want to work in any sort of science or technology related field, you absolutely should go to college, just not one of the ridiculously overpriced private ones. Those are the ones that aren't returning any longer.
liscombcFeb 2, 2012
I can relate to how Mr. Stephens feels. I am currently an education major and understand where he is coming from. The problem is that it's very difficult to get a decent paying job without a degree. The only way I see you could make great money without going to college is by starting your own business, but there is no guarantee that you will make a dime.
shiroboiFeb 3, 2012
The guy brings up some valid points, and yes you can be successful without college. However, I wouldn't advise my daughter to skip college. Without college, I sure as hell wouldn't have my cushy job at a law firm. Some companies DO value education and all the personal experience and skills in the world won't convince them to hire you without having a degree to back you up. If your goal is to be a trash man then, well yeah, skip college. Case by case basis.
Closed AccountFeb 2, 2012
Go to vocational school.
gvoakesFeb 2, 2012Submitter
ITT TECHNICAL INSTITUTE FOR LEARNING COMPUTER
thubanFeb 3, 2012
There is something to be said for that. We have been so higher learning centric that many of the trades are are depleted and now pay big bucks. A marine diesel mechanic can make 50k a year.
andysasylumFeb 2, 2012
That's what I did, and look at me! I'm internet famous.
norman619Feb 2, 2012
I'm so jealous!
pdotkdotFeb 2, 2012
It's not about what you know, but who you know.
norman619Feb 2, 2012
This right here is the basic truth. Most companies I have worked for would hire someone known and recommended by an existing employee over someone off the street. This is why networking is so valuable. If you know someone in the company that will vouch for you then you just jumped over all the others who don't.
silentspyderFeb 3, 2012
just sucks if you have no social skills
theanimal123Feb 3, 2012
My point is not this exactly. It's just that with the advent of extremely fast personal computers and the internet, we should be capable of centralizing and organizing and puitting all the relevant course materials online... and maybe creating local testing facilities. I know it's kind of being done right now, but it needs to be done more. The old way of everyone driving to these places just seems terribly inefficient with our current supply of oil.
fatiguecareFeb 3, 2012
I think which degree you have is not too much important. The important thing is you have got degree in your interesting field or not? How much you perfect in your field.
If you will get degree in your interesting field then you will be blossom in that field and no one can catch you to get more money.
So, as per my thought degree is important but is that degree in your interested field, is more important.
jaketyson85Feb 2, 2012
unless u are a natural talent like bill gate or marc zuckerberg then GUARANTEED u will get farther by going to college. i would not be in the top 1% right now if i hadnt gotten my masters in biz finance. so yeah if u think u can compare to either of them then by all meens, skip higher education!
hydianFeb 3, 2012
No typing or English courses at that college, eh?
On topic, there are no guarantees. I found college to be no more difficult than high school which quite frankly was an intellectual snoozefest. I quit and did something challenging instead. Now I do something else and while I'm not in the top 1% (not a goal of mine to be frank,) I do perfectly fine for myself with minimal effort. That allows me to challenge myself with distractions that are of interest. I am probably better educated than the majority of college graduates, too.
That is not to say that I completely disagree with your barely legible scrawling. Most people need the extra few years of high school education to survive in the world. The degree is also becoming a must have item for those who don't stand out on their own. Of course those people aren't the ones smart enough to start their own businesses either...or learn a trade for that matter.
I don't want people to think that I am trashing all colleges. Some schools are worth your time *if* you apply yourself. Some degrees are worth a lot more than others as well. A blanket statement that a degree (along with the associated debt) is better than all other alternatives other than getting lucky and starting a massive company like Facebook is simply foolish.
jaketyson85Feb 4, 2012
thank you for ur well thought out intelligent reply. i enjoyed reading it with my eyeballs.
crashdvisFeb 3, 2012
Yes morons. Please don't go to college. It will reduce demand which will bring down costs and it will also make it easier for my kids to get jobs after they go to college because there will be less competition.
craig1958Feb 3, 2012
I was trying to be nice. But, yes; they will probably be working for my daughter in 10 years.
kyravonFeb 2, 2012
Nearly ALL our jobs now require a college degree.
So unless you want a job as a custodian, good luck with that skiping college thing...
frumblerFeb 3, 2012
Yeah, if you have a high IQ such as Dale obviously does, you really don't need college to be a success. Otherwise, you should probably go.
vitriolandangstFeb 3, 2012
I'm glad SOMEONE said it.
I look at my kids, and I figure there is NO WAY I can save $200,000 to get them into college when it's their turn. Unless trends change -- it's far too expensive.
If they get into programming, or better yet, hire smart people in an effective way and start their own business -- college isn't going to help them make more money. It's just a way to become a good worker for SOMEONE else. A company that likely lobbied to pay less taxes so that you spent more to become educated.
Take the same money you would spend on a University, and find on-line courses, podcasts and tutorials. It's not as well-rounded as a University -- but having 6 years of college and a well-rounded education; it might make you a more interesting person, but people don't pay for that.
It's about survival now, and if we ever get these things under control, where people can afford to enrich themselves -- it's a good thing to go to college. But it's a luxury -- and a waste of time if you need to make money.
craig1958Feb 3, 2012
That is very dependent on the field. Maybe you can do well in programming without a degree today, but what will that job market look like in 40 years? I know too many 50 year olds who are stuck in staff positions because they don't have the right piece of paper.
Starting your own business is great, I did it after getting an undergrad degree, working for other people for 20 years, gaining lots of experience, gaining lots of contacts, and having my former employer pay for grad school. I never would have gotten my foot in the door without an undergrad degree; and I would probably earn about 1/4 of my current income.
My advice to my kids is to get as much diverse education as possible while including an area that will help you get a job when you graduate. No one knows what the job market will look like in 30 years, it's unlikely they will still be using the same specific skills. They also need to learn how to think and how to keep learning.
barackalypseFeb 2, 2012
You go to college for the degree and the only reason you want the degree is to make it easier to get a job. If you goal is actual learning, at least 1/4 your time in a degree program is spent on subjects that have nothing directly to do with your field of study. Also, its generally theory, if you want practical application technical college is what you want.
pinkfish411Feb 3, 2012
If your goal is learning, it shouldn't bother you that half your program isn't directly related to your field. A narrow education is a bad education. Maybe it would be good training, but not a good education.
barackalypseFeb 3, 2012
I'm not immortal nor am I rich. I had 4 years to do college, so every second I wasted in a required writing class when I was already perfectly capable as a writer detracted from me learning what I was really interested in.Comment is buried, click here to see the rest.
pinkfish411Feb 3, 2012
That's what testing out of classes is for. Most colleges will allow you to test out of the big chunk of the core and move up to more advanced offerings.
But having graded my fair share of undergrad papers, most aren't perfectly capable of writing a coherent essay, so required writing classes definitely aren't a waste of time for most students.
craig1958Feb 3, 2012
Having read my fair share of documents written by engineers (most with graduate degrees), most students could stand to take a few more writing classes. After about 15 years, technical folks will usually advance to the point were they spend more time writing than doing the technical work they were trained for.
barackalypseFeb 3, 2012
That's the thing though, the writing classes didn't fix the poor writing the engineers had. If someone can't write coherently by the time they hit college I really doubt 150 minutes a week for 13 weeks is going to suddenly do it.
craig1958Feb 3, 2012
Actually, I think engineering majors should be required to pass a serious technical writing class, not some general purpose writing class. If one semester doesn't fix it, they can take it over again until they are actually capable of producing a coherent written document. Put the class under the college of engineering (where they are not afraid to give out failing grades).
pinkfish411Feb 4, 2012
I agree that engineers (and probably most majors) need technical writing classes aimed at their field's specific needs. But many of the kids I see aren't even at the level to start learning technical writing. Half of them genuinely cannot write a cohesive paragraph that makes a coherent point. Students tend to write in a "stream of consciousness" style with no clear aim about where they're going or how they plan to get there. They just emote on a page and call that an essay.
Everyone needs general writing because general writing promotes general thinking. The basic ability to compose a simple argument about a general topic and go through it step-by-step is an indispensable one; it's really crucial for the flourishing of democracy. Students should probably have already learned to do that before college, but half of them haven't.
craig1958Feb 4, 2012
I agree that a general writing class is a prerequisite for technical writing. The student needs to understand the basics before learning a more specific style of writing. I hope that most high school graduates have that skill, but I'm sure that some of them do not.
It is similar the the "math problem," many college freshmen are not equipped to succeed without remedial classes. I don't know how to fix it; lowering standards is not the answer, and teaching high school material to undergrads is expensive and time consuming. I'm sure this is why it takes many students more than 4 years to complete an undergrad degree.
For what it's worth, my daughter's high school english class seems to require that their students can write a proper essay. I'm sure it's a lot more difficult for high school teachers with 35 students in a class.
benjie25Feb 4, 2012
Exactly
I didn't do very well in my generals, but I fully enjoyed and appreciate them. I completely think they were worth it, even if they don't directly apply to my field.
I learned a lot on "how to think" and "how to research" in my classes.
ewilleyFeb 3, 2012
Thats fine and dandy and all, but when have you ever seen a job listing that does not require a degree of some sort. I do agree with the memorizing facts part i have several IT certs which i studied for and passed but if i took those same test now i doubt i would come any where near passing.
actegFeb 3, 2012
Who is paying thousands of dollars for college? Most states have free tuition to state universities if you have the grades for it Don't have the grades? Maybe that is your first indication that you should pass go college and go straight to vocational work. Seriously, there are enough free educational opportunities out there that if you are paying for your education you are either, dumb, lazy, or rich (so it doesn't matter).
You will never have the collection of resources at your fingertips that you have during your college career. You have an opportunity to explore so much about yourself and the world through the vast collection of resources that college presents (co-ops, clubs, student groups, cultural organization, internships, the education itself,etc). On the other hand, you can go to an out of state school, pay thousands for a art history degree, and then join the occupy movement when you can't find a job. Responsibility starts with you. Once you start taking responsibility for your future, you might find that life can work out pretty well.
pinkfish411Feb 4, 2012
I don't think most states have free tuition even for most good students. In my home state, I could have gotten free tuition only at the state's cheapest (and worst) public school, and I've done very well in school from kindergarten through my PhD. And I'd have had to move away to go there and pay living expenses. (Although, you could get free tuition at any state school if you kept a C average and your parents made little enough money while you were in--get this--7th grade, regardless of whether or not they became billionaires later on).
Getting free tuition can be a crap shoot. Sometimes you get it, but you can't get it at a school that actually has a decent program in your field.
Lou9000Feb 3, 2012
The problem isn't college, its college students. Employers aren't magically on notice when Dale J. Stephens gets his degree, nor does it somehow entitle him to a job. I went through undergraduate and law school, but unlike so many of my classmates, I didn't spend the summers on the beach or working dumb, minimum wage jobs. I started a company, I got internships with interesting, field specific employers (often for little or no pay), and I did a number of other things to differentiate myself and make myself marketable.
In then end, as with everything in life, you get out of it what you put in.
sndsFeb 3, 2012
I have a great many friends who skipped college to do design work that they loved. They are now some of the best designers you can find on the market and do advertising for fashion brands and big electronics companies. The drawback is that it took them a good long time to do it. But in reality it was a wash, took them maybe 4-5 years to figure out good business practices, sort out a good work ethic, and now they are gainfully self-employed. College certainly isn't for everyone, and I for one encourage anyone to do what they feel will work best. Maybe try college for a year, don't plan a full 4 year track. Don't waste money if you don't have to.
rileymaniaFeb 3, 2012
I liked this one.
ieatskunkFeb 3, 2012
People always say "go to college so you can get a good job". This is bulls**t. You are supposed to go to college to get an education in a field that has good jobs available for educated workers.
Closed AccountFeb 3, 2012
College is the biggest scam in America.
You pay tens of thousands of dollars for this "privilege" , in which you may or may not find a job in your field afterward though they always make it sound like it is guaranteed and you have to go if you want to get anywhere in life.
I myself did go of course, as one of the " parents never went to college so you should" crowd. Granted I went to tech school to learn practical skills, though even at the end of that I got most of my knowledge from those I worked with later because school taught me next to nothing in the end about how the real world operates.
School now doesn't mean you will have a job later, probably just a useless degree you can impress your naive friends with. Most of my friends who got degrees went on to jobs that had nothing to do with their major.
Apprenticeships need to make a comeback, study under those who already know. Most of my education came from me asking a lot of questions and trying things out on my own. There isnt really much I dont know something about these days, whether it is computers, physics, cars, chemistry, biology, etc, because I educate myself daily. I also work with fantastic and skilled people that I make a point to know everything they do.
There are plenty of success stories out there of those who didnt go to college but still became wildly successful off of their own drive alone to learn.
I dont have a business degree, but I started a business anyway, and I will just learn as I go and ask my mentors who already have successful businesses for help and advice.
craig1958Feb 3, 2012
Some people beat the odds and do very well without a formal education; some don't.
DiggfulFeb 3, 2012
Reason 0: Acquiring useful skills that could be attractive to potential employers
dimadimaFeb 3, 2012
I think it's more about the choice of a major rather than attendance. I sat next to people at my graduation that had no idea what they even wanted to do in life, let alone share the knowledge that they gained in college, or look for meaningful employment. The opposite of that is that my brother is a computer science master's and he had some of the toughest years studying at school (because computer science is really difficult) and now work for him is challenging but he feels that he can do anything.
I really resent that this kid (I remember when I was 20, though I am only 28 now) has the audacity to advise others and vicariously trying to convince himself that he made the right decision by dropping out. It's like he drank too much coffee and has lots to say to justify his decision, but in reality being an outcast like that is not a marketable or trustworthy skill.
In college, creativity is not stifled it's encouraged, the resources are there for your taking, and the social connections you make are often life long and meaningful.
Also, the article calls him Mr. Stephens, that's way too much credit. He is just Dale, the college drop out to me and most others.
gkiltzFeb 3, 2012
There's an exception to EVERY rule.
You are STILL better off getting all the education you can stand!!
kwanijmlFeb 3, 2012
Yes, but don't let schooling get in the way of your education.
bdbrFeb 3, 2012
You really have to separate yourself from the crowd in this sort of job environment. Get a high-demand degree, and work as many internships as possible, as early as possible. Do research during the year if you can get it. You'll probably have to have excellent grades to get offered this kind of research as an undergrad. If you can do related volunteer work during high school, it will help get the internships later. None of this stuff pays worth a damn so parents will foot most of the bill. This is what my kid did. It wasn't fun, but it did result in well-paying job offers.
craig1958Feb 3, 2012
Also, make sure you graduate in the top 5-10% of your class; which is mostly just a matter of working harder than everyone else. That will put you in a different league when looking for your first job.
rjeyFeb 2, 2012
Advice from a 20 year old on what to do with the rest of your life? Yes because he has sooo much life experience to draw from, am I right?
Listen kids, do the smart thing and go to college, but just make sure you pick the right subject to get a degree in. I seriously doubt i would be making 6 figures without my degree in Mechanical Engineering. My wife on the other hand doesn't have a degree and even though shes a manager for a large retail chain, she still makes less than 1/3 of what I do.Comment is buried, click here to see the rest.
southsideirishFeb 2, 2012
Buried for making the same lame ass comment twice.
Damn spammer!
gvoakesFeb 2, 2012Submitter
He was smart enough to get the founder of Paypal to invest in him.
norman619Feb 2, 2012
That's called selling himself. Not sure if that actually qualifies him to give people advice on this.