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michichaelJul 24, 2010
Ok, I'll be "That assh**e:"
Maybe they shouldn't have built their business on illegal immigrants, eh? While the potential for racial profiling and undue violations of civil rights is there, it's just that. Potential. There hasn't been any racial profiling yet. The people that are worried are the people that are here illegally. And damnit now they're all coming to California. Great.
I feel no pity for businesses that are suffering because they targeted illegal immigrants as workers or income. None. Other businesses are suffering too, welcome to the f**king club. The rest of us weren't breaking the law to keep from being hit by this recession, and now that the law's actually being enforced "Ohnoes! They took our income!"
It's like a gang trying to get public support because new police enforcement is curbing their abilities to smuggle drugs. I'm sorry, but if your business model is based on illegals, you deserve what you get when they get caught. Suck it.
/Proud Californian, Proud descendant of LEGAL immigrants, Proud American
ricker2005Jul 24, 2010
If you run a random store in the town, you're just selling to whoever comes in and buys stuff. The percentage of illegal immigrants in your town has nothing to do with you. I'd hardly call that building their business on illegal immigrants.
lawhogs567Jul 24, 2010
I would argue it would be based on the store owner's knowledge. If a store owner knew his customer's were illegal immigrants and altered his business plan and marketed to illegal immigrants, then said store owner would have no standing to complain. Grant it the store owner would have expended resources and be harmed by enforcement of immigration law; however, such the store owner should have foreseen the harm.Comment is buried, click here to see the rest.
karmashockJul 24, 2010
Ricker,
If the complaint is that business will be bad because they need illegal immigrants to work or buy things then it isn't a random store or town. It's a business model specifically built on illegal immigration either in it's employment model or sales model.
If you're a business you KNOW when this happens. That means there was a decision somewhere along the line to rely on that factor. That renders them pretty culpable.Comment is buried, click here to see the rest.
rpgmakrJul 25, 2010
@ricker: Michael clearly misplaced his anger.
jessdub99Jul 24, 2010
Very well said and I'm in full agreeance.
ddttoxJul 24, 2010
Agreeance? And here I thought you would refudate it.
karmashockJul 24, 2010
typo aside, I also agree.
theswashbucklerJul 25, 2010
And they want immigrants to learn English???
spacem00seJul 24, 2010
No doubt, alot of people saw this coming. The law would not bring the desired results, as if it was going to be some magic wand that would solve all their problems.
keithlolbermannJul 24, 2010
http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_l1d4kh1d431qz6j7m.png
keithlolbermannJul 25, 2010
spacem00se,
My 10-year-old nephew spells better than you.
Closed AccountJul 24, 2010
You sir are an assh**e. Your not gonna pick the flowers and wash the dishes. Get a f**king grip.
karmashockJul 24, 2010
Plenty of citizens will do this work. Maybe you have to pay minimum wage to do it but in the end that isn't going to hurt the economy any to have people paid at least minimum wage.
benroyJul 24, 2010
I agree with you 100%.
There are Americans who are willing to pick lettuce and avocados, landscape a yard and lay tile, take out the trash and clean our carpets, etc.
They just can't do it for six dollars-an-hour with no benefits.
It's not racist to say that illegal immigrants are ruining our society.
darkray16Jul 24, 2010
then they aren't going to be doing it at all. many businesses just aren't viable when laborers demand salaries on par with people who have masters degrees get.
It's not racist to say they are ruining our society, just scapegoating. America's overinflated standard of living is ruining our society.
crimoidJul 24, 2010
@Darkray16 When illegal workers are willing to tolerate pay and working conditions far below those mandated by state and federal laws AND businesses are willing to break the law to hire them then there is a problem that needs to be addressed. Now you might argue that mandated pay and working conditions might be set too high and that these workers are filling a gap that is necessary for businesses to remain viable and on this point I agree with you: we need to reset labor laws to match the prevailing economy and then enforce those rules. Laws and standards need to be set and businesses and workers need to play by those rules.
The answer is to address the heart of the problem: either blow up labor laws and create a market-driven labor force (and suffer whatever Big Business wants to cram down our throats) OR work toward eliminating the source of the problem: illegal workers and the businesses that hire them.
karmashockJul 24, 2010
Darkray16,
They aren't viable only because there is competition with cheaper labor. Remove the cheaper labor... ie illegals and it is viable.
Now, I would agree that some businesses aren't viable with full health benefits but if you use the standard of minimum wage which is the legal limit then it's hard to think of a business that can't operate under that.
captobliviousJul 24, 2010
@Darkray16,
I really like how you conflate minimum wage with having a masters degree, it's like you really think that you need a masters to make that little.
Good job making me suspect every thing else you have to say with that one statement.
chilidogsJul 24, 2010
Fair enough, it's not racist. It is stupid though.
darkray16Jul 26, 2010
I would say a person with a master's degree can pull off 20+ dollars an hour on average. It doesn't work when any damn laborer who had a few months of training demands full health benefits, vacation time, and the same level of wages.
I'm a huge supporter of unions but legal workers provide skilled labor, while illegals provide unskilled labor for work that 99.9% of Americans would think is below them.
michichaelJul 26, 2010
Dark, I'd like to see you play that argument against some of the high school students or other entry workers that don't have a developed skillset and can't get one because they'd have to be paid minimum wage, hence they have to mortgage their life away to get an education.
There's no such thing as "beneath me" when you don't have a job and don't have experience.
jcds172Jul 27, 2010
News flash for you...your ancestors when they came from EU also where exploited and worked in factories and farms so that their ungrateful great grandchildren can bitch about cheap labor yet theyre unwilling to give 1/2 of their pay check to cover health care for his cleaning lady!
smotpokerJul 24, 2010
"While the potential for racial profiling and undue violations of civil rights is there, it's just that. Potential."
While there may be no evidence you consider relevant or credible, that hardly implies such "potential" has never been realized and if it has, it is far more likely it will be in the future once there is further incentive for it. It is disingenuous to pretend that racial profiling didn't exist before this law or that somehow this law might stop it.
Until recently there has been no bans on racial profiling in AZ and even now it seems to only be restricted in regards to enforcement of the new immigration law and only in an ambiguous manner that can't be contested or truly defined until someone who can afford to take it on in court gets a chance. In the mean time, countless Americans and legal immigrants can wind up suffering more than they already do because of such practices.
http://www.google.com/search?q=arizona+racial+profiling&hl=en&safe=off&client=firefox-a&rls=org.gentoo%3Aen-US%3Aunofficial&sa=X&ei=wvBKTIO4NcL-8AaYjfUz&ved=0CAkQpwU&source=lnt&tbs=cdr%3A1%2Ccd_min%3A7%2F1%2F2000%2Ccd_max%3A7%2F1%2F2008
http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2010/may/04/jan-brewer/arizona-immigration-law-rewrite-lays-rest-worries-/
http://www.amnestyusa.org/racial_profiling/report/map.html
karmashockJul 24, 2010
The law hasn't even gone into a effect yet and further Arizona's law is literally a repetition of federal law. So are you saying that federal law in this case is racist and that federal law leads to profiling?
And let us point out that illegal immigration is demonstrably out of control. So in that environment are you really going to claim that the rights of mostly illegal immigrations trump all domestic issues?
I'll point one more thing out because it's mostly leftists that are for open immigration.
Open immigration and socialism are NOT compatible. Socialism depends on stable proportions between different income brackets. If you offer lots of stuff that's basically free to poor people and then let as many poor people into the country as possible the system collapses. You can't have free health care and let everyone from south of the border come whenever they feel like it. You'll be paying for EVERYONE"S healthcare in south america and mexico that can't afford it while at the same time mostly getting their very poorest, least educated, and thus least useful people.
It is NOT a sustainable system. You'll just go bankrupt. It's a system only an idiot would embrace. I hope you're not an idiot. So please choose either open immigration and PURE capitalism or controlled immigration and some variant of socialism. Because no form of socialism works with open immigration. It's a just a recipe for complete and total failure.
smotpokerJul 24, 2010
"The law hasn't even gone into a effect yet and further Arizona's law is literally a repetition of federal law."
I never said it was implemented yet. I said that AZ and other law enforcers have a long history of racial profiling already, provided evidence to the effect, and suggested that giving more incentive to racially profile and increasing the potential harm caused by racial profiling isn't likely to decrease such abuses - and almost certain to increase them.
As for a repetition of federal law: This is absolutely wrong because it makes minor/civil immigration offenses into criminal ones which both broadens the state's ability to abuse it's power on both immigrants and citizens.
"So are you saying that federal law in this case is racist and that federal law leads to profiling?"
I generally don't refer to "racial profiling" as "racist" due to connotations of racial hatred but by strictest definition, yes it is - regardless of who implements it.
"And let us point out that illegal immigration is demonstrably out of control. So in that environment are you really going to claim that the rights of mostly illegal immigrations trump all domestic issues?"
I never made any such claim and your implication that I have is dishonest. All of my arguments against this law are in support of the rights and freedoms of ALL US citizens and those who are trying to become US citizens through legitimate channels.
The fact that I consider dark skinned citizens' rights equally important to light skinned one's despite their smaller numbers does not imply my opposition to this law is founded on a belief that illegal immigrants should have more rights or that their existing rights should be defended more.
The rest of your comment is irrelevant to the discussion at hand and I don't particularly care to address it at the moment. Suffice it to say I neither advocated open immigration or socialism in this comment. Only ensuring that all citizens and legitimate immigrants not be faced with threat of incarceration for entering AZ and committing a minor offense such as forgetting their paperwork, not conforming to an officer's opinion of what a citizen should be or being in the way of an officer who chooses to abuse his power.
karmashockJul 24, 2010
"I never said it was implemented yet. I said that AZ and other law enforcers have a long history of racial profiling already, provided evidence to the effect, and suggested that giving more incentive to racially profile and increasing the potential harm caused by racial profiling isn't likely to decrease such abuses - and almost certain to increase them."
Well, how would you change federal law then so that it controls illegal immigration without causing whatever you think the problem happens to be? And no... simply not doing anything about it is not sufficient.
Lead follow or get out of the way.Comment is buried, click here to see the rest.
smotpokerJul 24, 2010
I both follow and lead - on behalf of those principles I have learned to embrace, many of which were established by the founders of the nation and it's justice system. Those principles oppose any acts, legislated or otherwise, that have a high potential of abusing authority and/or endangering the rights of one group of citizens to protect another.
You may like your freedom and prosperity but it does not give you the right to protect it at the expense of others' freedom and prosperity.
karmashockJul 25, 2010
Without sovereignty law means nothing and without control of the border you have no sovereignty.
Thus your whole concept is self defeating at best... This is out of your depth.
juliusthecatJul 24, 2010
This account has been closed by the user
karmashockJul 24, 2010
Most of us came through the proper channels, got visas, and waited in lines to get here.
Nations have a right to control their immigration policy. Mexico deports people all the time that enter their country illegally and are much more strict about it then we are... so tell me why the US has fewer rights to control it's immigration then Mexico does? I know... because we're mostly white people and white people don't have the same rights... That's racist... And no, that is the standard people are using. Only white people get held to these standards. Everyone else in the world has the ability to enforce common sense policies but if white people do it suddenly it's racism.
What a load of steaming crap.
juliusthecatJul 24, 2010
This account has been closed by the user
karmashockJul 24, 2010
juliusthecat,
Wrong. It's not just mexico but almost every other country on earth. Further, I think you would agree that mexico can't complain if their polices are more strict? Correct? You would agree then that the complaints of the mexican president and people are at best hypocritical and self severing? Because that's a logical fact.
As to your suggestion that illegal immigration and the drug war are some how the same thing, no they aren't. Illegal immigration is caused by weak enforcement and high reward. You're giving away social services and not punishing businesses that hire illegals. That means that just by crossing the border a poor mexican family can get all sorts of aid which along with the labor is a pretty good gig. Also, if they come with a pregnant women all she needs to do is have a kid and the system basically makes them all citizens.
Who pays for all this? Well, everyone else does.
Which is part of why the mexican government loves this... we pay for their poorest people. THis allows mexico's corrupt government to keep doing business as usual. Do you know that one of the richest men in the world is the head of the mexican telephone company? Why is that? Because mexico's telephone company is a government protected monopoly.
It's a corrupt semi-competent government... and we're picking up the tab. Everyone that supports open immigration fails at math.
juliusthecatJul 24, 2010
This account has been closed by the user
karmashockJul 24, 2010
I got your point. It's just wrong. Most illegals are not mixed up in the drug trade so it's not a controlling factor. Drug cartels do use the same routes and are involved in the human trafficking but the drugs would happen without illegal immigration and illegal immigration would happen without the drugs.
If they're at all related they're both related to weak border enforcement.
juliusthecatJul 25, 2010
This account has been closed by the user
karmashockJul 25, 2010
Some might be but most aren't. This has been going on for decades and the drug war has been fairly benign even in mexico until fairly recently. The drug war didn't make mexico an incompetent kleptocracy... the drug war in fact is only harming mexico so much because it is an incompetent kleptocracy. Were it more competent and honorable the cartels wouldn't be able to have such power in the country.
To take this situation and claim that illegal immigration from mexico to the US wouldn't be high without the drug war unforgivably naive.
rodvezJul 25, 2010
don't bother this guy is riding high on his horse. I like how most people like this forget about what is LEGAL and ILLEGAL and MORAL. The only way I would buy this guys crap is if he manufactured all his own stuff, cooked his own food...but since he did it was probably an immigrant that did all of it so he should really STFU
karmashockJul 25, 2010
you're a fool. The vast majority of labor in the US is legal. What labor is illegal is marginal and absent illegal immigration would either be outsourced, done at moderately higher cost, or some other convenience.
Illegal labor is a convenience and by no means a requirement for our economy. It's like saying we'd all die if we ran out of macaroni and cheese... yes... a lot of people eat that crap. There are other alternatives... lots of other alternatives. Most are slightly more expensive but in the end it's no big deal.
tastypasteJul 24, 2010
How exactly did these businesses "target" illegals? I don't think you quite understand the concept here. If you own a convenience store and some illegals stop by on their way home, does that mean you "targeted" them and should therefore be driven out of business?
Also to say that profiling hasn't happened yet in Arizona is just plain wrong. Joe Arapaio has been famously convicted of racial profiling, violations of the 14th amendment and several of his deputies were known to have murdered suspects in custody and Sheriff Joe helped cover it up. He was a known racial profiler even before this immigration law went into effect.
karmashockJul 24, 2010
If you depend on them to stay in business then you targeted them.
silverskater145Jul 24, 2010
You depend on anyone willing to come in to stay in business.
ruckfulesJul 24, 2010
*While the potential for racial profiling and undue violations of civil rights is there, it's just that. Potential.*
Two people at the end of the article (Vela and Davenport) intimate that they have been racially profiled. They're both in the country legally, and Davenport stated that an officer threatened to refer her to the immigration department for deportation because he didn't believe she was legal.
Some people argue that everyone should carry identification around by law. And most people do. But most people don't carry around their passports or passport with Visa on their person when they go to the store or attend a child's soccer game. I'm a first generation immigrant; when I arrived in America, I was told to keep my documents in a safe place and not to carry them around. I'm sure many other immigrants experience the same thing. It's not safe and it's actually irresponsible on some levels to have those things in public or the "privacy" of your vehicle.
*I feel no pity for businesses that are suffering because they targeted illegal immigrants as workers or income.*
The author doesn't really mention anything about businesses that specifically "target illegal immigrants as workers or income". A note is made that even a large contingent of legal immigrants are leaving because they fear that they're being targeted as well, so the issue is really about a lack of customers and an increasingly dramatic demographic shift by an emigrating population. While your points may be generally correct, they're also somewhat wrong and somewhat irrelevant to the issue the author is discussing in the article.
darkray16Jul 24, 2010
I'm a citizen and a Californian. You sir, do not speak for me. I don't agree with police having the ability to question someone's immigration status just cause they feel like it. Intuition or a gut feeling does not equal reasonable suspicion.
karmashockJul 24, 2010
I'm a citizen and a Californian, and I think we all can spot illegals when we see them. Don't tell me it isn't obvious. From the lines of people at the hardware store, to the 20 people packed into a single tiny apartment, anyone can just tell so long as they're not completely stupid.
Further, this is just a repetition of the LITERAL FEDERAL LAW. You're arguing with federal law here and not Arizona. The problem is that the federal government has not enforced it's own laws. In that case, the states have a right to enforce them on their own. Imagine if the feds stopped enforcing laws you do believe in? What then? Wouldn't states have the right to take it into their own hands or should they just let chaos descend on the situation?
What if there were a literal invasion across the border with enemy troops... would the governor be out of line to deploy national guard or should he/she just surrender?
Your objections are absurd.
nmessickJul 24, 2010
you did not read the law did you? The police can't do that. This is like the seat belt laws. They only question it if your engauged in other illegal activities. Comment is buried, click here to see the rest.
smotpokerJul 24, 2010
@nmessick
*You* are apparently the one who didn't read the law. They do not have to witness or even suspect you of committing another crime to question your immigration status.
"Lawful contact" does not mean "when suspected of another crime". It simply means "contact that isn't illegal". Asking someone questions is lawful (unless you are a cop/judge and tell someone not to) regardless of whether they are on the job or suspect one of a real crime.
chilidogsJul 24, 2010
The law uses the term "reasonable suspicion". No one really knows exactly what that means. What we do know is that it does not mean probable cause. If they had intended for probable cause to be the prerequisite they would have used the term.
particleman420Jul 24, 2010
and if it was a racist law the government would be bringing suit against arizona based on that and not the fact that they claim that states dont have the right to enforce immigration laws.
karmashockJul 25, 2010
chilidogs,
Actually it has legal meaning. There are a whole lot of things the police are allowed to do all the time with reasonable suspecion. And further, this is just federal law.
This isn't even really Arizona's law... this is what the federal government is REQUIRED TO DO BY LAW and hasn't done. The feds are in clear violation of their own law. So a state mirrors their law and the feds get upset? On what grounds? On the grounds of someone else caring more about the law then them? Well, that's great only their only ability to complain is legally... and since they clearly don't have a legal leg to stand on that really means the complaint is just a giant waste of time.
If anything, the feds should be sued into enforcing their own law not suing a state for trying to pick up the slack.
kylegoetzJul 24, 2010
Yup, a Californian used to high prices who thinks the Dollar Store targets illegal immigrants. It targets bargain-conscious shoppers, man. I used to shop wherever, but my wife (from a quite well-off family) made me start doing initial searches for items at the Dollar Store.
karmashockJul 24, 2010
If that store doesn't need illegals then they'll be fine. Poor citizens aren't targeted by this legislation.
It's also federal law... Arizona just repeated federal law verbatim in their legislation. So by all means, make a federal case of out it... these court cases are going to lose. Arizona has already and fought and won similar battles in the past and it's basically legally impossible to say Arizona is breaking the law when they're just repeating federal law word for word.Comment is buried, click here to see the rest.
ddttoxJul 24, 2010
Dude. You are not descended from legal immigrants. This country was taken by force and the natives slaughtered. The US took the entire southwest by force from Mexico. So don't get so high and mighty.
karmashockJul 24, 2010
Fine... so you want us to go back to "cowboy's and indians" rules? Should we get our guns and start shooting people? Or would you like to work out the legal process?
Your choice. Because if you're going to argue that since we conquered this area that others have a right to conquer it from us... I would point out that we have a right under that logic to defend our territory from conquest with force up to and including slaughtering people.
You can't have both. You can't say some people don't have to follow the law and others do. Further, we have all these social programs now where people get free medical care and aid just for coming. Who do you think is paying for all that? If we offered literally nothing then open immigration might be sustainable. Of course, lots of these people wouldn't be coming in the first place. A fair margin of the illegal immigrants come because stupid gringos give them free stuff just for showing up.
How long do you think you can keep doing that? Your weak minded world view is only going to lead us all to the poor house.
hydesJul 24, 2010
"The US took the entire southwest by force from Mexico."
1. that happens when you invade and then lose the war. sometimes you lose territory
2. texas was already an independent nation
3. gadsden purchase look it upComment is buried, click here to see the rest.
bille3Jul 24, 2010
Mexico sold the land. They are just trying to renege on the sale.
viol999Jul 24, 2010
Excuse me but I do believe that the Spaniards were the most violent invaders towards the aboriginal people that they found in the America's. They slaughtered their way with glee and a Christian prayer all the way to a country called Mexico.
particleman420Jul 24, 2010
look up "The Gadsden Purchase" and explain which part of that was theft?
nmessickJul 24, 2010
if the illegals are leaving, than the costs for healthcare, police protection, public schools, etc are about to plumet. The government can use this money to lower the burden on business, investment will go wild and Arizona will be the most flourishing economey in the west..
captobliviousJul 24, 2010
Ya, like the government will lower taxes and funding to police?
What's next? sparkly pink unicorns in every yard?
particleman420Jul 24, 2010
who says they have to lower it? they can just use that money to fix our hemorrhaging economy. the tax money can go to those that pay them instead of supporting mexico by taking care of their poor for them.
ninjadolemiteJul 24, 2010
nmessick:
shrinking economies are not usually considered to be a good thing. They don't usually attract investment.
davidnivenJul 24, 2010
More LA Slimes liberal spam/propaganda. Again, they find themselves on the wrong side of history.
bsmangJul 24, 2010
This account has been closed by the user
paranor01Jul 24, 2010
Well, that would be your alternate reality history DN, since your brain lives in that alternate reality. I wish the rest of you would follow suit so we don't have to continually be dumbed down by your trolling.
Closed AccountJul 24, 2010
DavidNiven is a troll and a pedophile.
particleman420Jul 24, 2010
even a broken clock is right twice a day
thejokkerJul 24, 2010
So this story says that the new Arizona law is in fact reducing illegal immigrants in Arizona? That was the point of this bill right?
spacem00seJul 24, 2010
Its not just illegals leaving Arizona.
darkray16Jul 24, 2010
I'd be leaving that racist state too if I was living there.
dayal911Jul 24, 2010
The law is not racist. A Russian immigrant who gets pulled over and doesn't have his/her drivers license is in just as much trouble as Mexican immigrant.
trolleyfanJul 24, 2010
"The law is not racist. A Russian immigrant who gets pulled over and doesn't have his/her drivers license is in just as much trouble as Mexican immigrant."
And I'm sure they're checking on the immigration status of just *10s* of Russian immigrants...Comment is buried, click here to see the rest.
bille3Jul 24, 2010
Playing the race card does not eliminate the fact that they broke the law.
Playing the race card is not much different than NAACP or The New Black Panthers playing the race card. It is about having control and it has absolutely nothing about race.
particleman420Jul 24, 2010
if it was a racist law wouldnt the federal government be suing the state for that instead of what they're suing for now?
razordeadJul 25, 2010
I'm concerned about what may come about in enforcement of this law & I'm not illegal OR even Hispanic. I do have a Mexican wife & half-Mexican daughter. We're not sure the environment here in AZ is something we want our daughter to grow up in.Comment is buried, click here to see the rest.
smotpokerJul 25, 2010
@dayal911
"The law is not racist. A Russian immigrant who gets pulled over and doesn't have his/her drivers license is in just as much trouble as Mexican immigrant."
That depends on your definition of "racist" and while the law itself may not be considered racist, it's application almost certainly will be due to hidden racial profiling. A Russian immigrant without a license could get in just as much trouble but chances are much less likely he'd get pulled over in the first place. Racial minorities are stopped and hassled way more frequently already. Contriving an excuse is second nature to LEO at this point.
This law gives them another avenue to legitimize such profiling and compounds the potential harm it might cause to both minority citizens and minority immigrants in the process of naturalization.Comment is buried, click here to see the rest.
particleman420Jul 25, 2010
so lets see if i got this straight:
the law is racist because you think it targets mexicans only. but you agree that the law itself isnt racist or written in a racist way. But your real problem is that you think (based on no facts) that the white cops are going to target the mexicans (brown-ish) because they're mexican.
so, going by that reasoning, who's the racists? "the white cops are going to abuse the law and target mexicans because thats what white cops do"
mmmhmm
theswashbucklerJul 25, 2010
"A Russian immigrant who gets pulled over and doesn't have his/her drivers license is in just as much trouble as Mexican immigrant."
Maybe, maybe not. It depends entirely on how the law is actually enforced.
smotpokerJul 25, 2010
@Particleman
"(based on no facts)"
There is TONS of evidence out there, however most people refuse to take a suspect's word over an officer's and dismiss the relevant statistics and studies.
"that the white cops..."
When and where did I *ever* mention the races of the officers involved with the enforcement? Never? Oh, I see. You are just pretending I said things I didn't in a petty attempt to discredit my argument.
There are plenty of minority officers who endorse and engage in racial profiling as well, FYI. Perhaps you could try actually researching the topic a bit before dismissing/opposing an argument related to it. Here, I'll help you:
http://abclocal.go.com/kgo/story?section=news/local/peninsula&id=6480418
http://flexyourrights.org/taxonomy/term/55
http://www.portlandtribune.com/news/story.php?story_id=24224
http://www.hrw.org/campaigns/race/hrw-statement2.htm
http://www.hrw.org/wr2k2/racism.html#Discrimination%20in%20Criminal%20Justice
http://www.hrw.org/legacy/reports98/police/uspo17.htm
Besides these, I've seen several news reports where officers admit to and/or defend racial profiling (though I have a hard time finding them at the moment).Comment is buried, click here to see the rest.
Closed AccountJul 25, 2010
Buried for L.A. Times. Legitimate sources, please
smotpokerJul 25, 2010
@Jeremiah
Who mentioned LA Times?
smotpokerJul 25, 2010
@Jeremiah
Wow, you're burying *another* story submitted by a person I don't even know to get back at me for something I said in another thread? This is like the second time in a week or so.
Again, why exactly do you feel it is justified to try to punish others for my actions? I even have a few submissions myself you could bury if you're feeling *that* spiteful.Comment is buried, click here to see the rest.
particleman420Jul 26, 2010
"There is TONS of evidence out there,"
there's evidence that shows that cops deinately will racially profile people even if they arent white because thats what cops do?
i guess thats not racist, just stereotyping. which is really the same thing just a different flavor.
smotpokerJul 26, 2010
@Particle
Yes, there is evidence that a large number of officers around the country racially profile, including (as I mentioned) admissions and defenses of the practice by LEO themselves. It is not stereotyping, it is fact.
That is why the notion that they will restrict the practice with people they think are guilty of one specific crime or will see the light and quit altogether when they might see the most potential benefit seems absurd.
particleman420Jul 26, 2010
"Yes, there is evidence that a large number of officers around the country racially profile,"
but how can that be, this is the racist law that must be stopped because what you say already happens anyway might happen.
smotpokerJul 26, 2010
Though your comment doesn't make any sense, I believe your point is that this law is ok or irrelevant because racial profiling already exists.
However, your point completely overlooks the potential to increase the frequency of and/or compound the effects of racial profiling. Now along with various subjective, unprovable and illegal methods used to conceal racial profiling, this law provides a number of new methods to do so in relation to investigating illegal immigration. Now if a brown person just seems too "ethnic" an officer can have his vehicle towed and detain him indefinitely until he and/or his friends/family manage to get the evidence to prove he is a citizen. Losing your transportation, missing a couple of days of work or more and having to pay impound fees is a pretty big burden on low income demographics families and a substantial factor in why racial profiling contributes to economic disparity between races (especially when it happens to a person more than once).
frink14Jul 25, 2010
And the thing is, it hasn't even gone into effect. Thumbs up for Arizona!
bsmangJul 24, 2010
This account has been closed by the user
phillyocJul 24, 2010
I am supposed to feel sorry for hurting businesses that cater to illegal aliens? That is like feeling sorry for drug dealers whose businesses suffer when people get off of drugs.
I am a pretty damn liberal person, but these tougher immigration laws are needed in some areas where a person who is in thios country the legal way cannot make a decent wage because of illegals.Comment is buried, click here to see the rest.
sizzzzlerzJul 24, 2010
Yeah, f**k that owner of the 7-11 down the street who can't even be bothered to ask for proof of citizenship when someone comes in to buy a slurpee or a ho-ho. He deserves to bear the brunt of side-effects of AZ new gestapo state.
hydesJul 24, 2010
the 7-11 will survive without illegals, PhillyOC was talking about those companies that hire illegals
soc7Jul 24, 2010
It will be interesting to see if there is any quantitative effect on state tax revenues that can be correlated to immigrants leaving the state. The same question goes for state expenditures on health care, law enforcement, education, etc. It would be nice to be able to measure the results a year or two from now. The extra information could be useful in defining the debate and determining if the policy had any net effects beyond just the immigrants moving out.
rodneyws1977Jul 24, 2010
Well said.
thejokkerJul 24, 2010
and on state expenditures too. The big complaint by the state was they spend a large amount on services for illegals who don't pay state taxes therefore hurting the state budget.
So, reducing illegals should put more money back into the state budget.
imallvol7Jul 24, 2010
I agree. I think it will be really interesting.
needslipoJul 24, 2010
THEY TOOK OUR JERBS
..with them
Closed AccountJul 24, 2010
This is what the state of Arizona deserves for supporting political and economical racism. Give the immigrants a way to work and keep our economy on track. Simply "banning" or "scaring" them is not going to work for Arizona or the US as a whole. We all know the middle and lower class in this country will not do the jobs they do: that is a reality, not an opinion.Comment is buried, click here to see the rest.
teacher2beJul 24, 2010
Racism! Racism! Racism! Racism! Racism! Racism! Racism! Racism! Racism! Racism! Racism! Racism! Racism! Racism! Racism! Doesn't that get old?
Closed AccountJul 24, 2010
Hate. Fear. Uncertainty. Hate. Fear. Uncertainty. Hate. Fear. Uncertainty.
Hate. Fear. Uncertainty. Hate. Fear. Uncertainty. Hate. Fear. Uncertainty.
Hate. Fear. Uncertainty. Hate. Fear. Uncertainty. Hate. Fear. Uncertainty.
Doesnt that get old?
captobliviousJul 24, 2010
You would think, but the !right wing, GOP and fox has based their entire strategy on "Hate. Fear. Uncertainty."
I'm pretty sick of it, but then I'm not drinking it up like the fakes news viewers and megachurch goers.
tsothaJul 24, 2010
At this point when someone says "racism!" you can pretty much assume it's bulls**t, this Arizona law being case in point.
Closed AccountJul 24, 2010
Bunch of pussy racists, chest beating conservative losers digging me down, keep it up.
teacher2beJul 24, 2010
Way to show your maturity there.
silastomorrowJul 24, 2010
I don't think they are racists, and there are many liberal and independent-minded people who want to stop it.. I think people are fed up with the gigantic amounts of illegal immigration, and they want reform.
Nothing wrong with wanting people to come in LEGALLY, and then pay their taxes....like everyone else.
Closed AccountJul 24, 2010
^yup. It should be legal, but the political racism in our govt. process and ignorant fearful and hateful masses will IMO not allow that.
dayal911Jul 24, 2010
How is this law racist?
A Russian immigrant getting pulled over and not having his/her driver's license is in just as much trouble as a Mexican immigrant committing the same crime.
captobliviousJul 24, 2010
@SilasTomorrow
Where do you get the idea that illegals don't pay taxes? Do the stores around you let you not pay the tax if you say you aren't a citizen?
Illegal workers DO pay income taxes INTO the system, their employers take it out of their checks just like yours. However they don't get to file returns at the end of the year to get some money back.
The guys you see hanging around Home Depot are a very very tiny percentage of that population and most of them pay the income tax indirectly by their illegal employer paying penalties on the money paid out to them.
They also still pay sales taxes, vehicle taxes, fuel taxes, etc etc etc.
particleman420Jul 24, 2010
and captain oblivious, do you not pay federal and state taxes on top of the sales taxes that you pay?
at least you live up to your name.
imallvol7Jul 24, 2010
You are a moron. Its about being illegal, not being a racist.
Closed AccountJul 24, 2010
Actually, that's what they want you to believe. But it's def racial, if they were pulling out white irish, uk and german people to "verify their citizenship" most people wouldn't be singing the same tune but since its mexicans no one gives a f**k, thats racism. Pure and simple.
hydesJul 24, 2010
im pretty sure 95% of the illegals in Arizona are of Latino decent. the law targets all illegal immigrants regardless of their ethnicity so yes it is about them being illegal not because of raceComment is buried, click here to see the rest.
particleman420Jul 24, 2010
so let me get this straight, just because one group of people with the same ethnicity is the majority of illegals in a state due to the proximity of the border we shouldnt enforce our immigration laws because it may seem racist if we do?
thats bulls**t. your imaginary irish illegal would have the same problems as the mexican illegals if he were to get pulled over for another crime (like this bill says).
and as i said 3 times in this thread, if it were a racist law the govt would be suing because of that, which they arent at all, they had to make up some flimsy reason to sue
kamtsaJul 24, 2010
taikahn, you are a racist.
You support a group of law breakers just because they are Hispanic.
Our laws should apply to everybody, regardless of their race.Comment is buried, click here to see the rest.
Closed AccountJul 24, 2010
lol. ok. yeah, that's it. Keep on believing that. kisses.
dangercollieJul 24, 2010
The depressing part of this is that it's working to the intended effect. Immigrants (legal and not) are leaving Arizona. I call that result depressing because the right wing chest-thumpers will undoubtedly herald that development is some kind of vindication. But, like most of their victories, the celebration is liable to be short-lived. The short term results seem to be positive but we won't know about the long-term economic consequences for a long time. It could make the cost of everything in AZ escalate dramatically and spur inflation.
Or it might actually work. That's the problem with living by facts instead of right wing dogma. You can't prove their backward policies wrong until the damage has been done. At which time they turn around and blame someone else for the failure.
dayal911Jul 24, 2010
Wait.. so it is working in that it's driving illegals out of the state, but since it's a fact that supports the right-wing argument, it's now simply right-wing dogma?
How about liberal dogma. This AZ bill is not an immigration bill. It doesn't set or modify any immigration laws. The title of this submission is liberal dogma at its finest.Comment is buried, click here to see the rest.
prodigitalsonJul 24, 2010
"That's the problem with living by facts instead of right wing dogma. You can't prove their backward policies wrong until the damage has been done. At which time they turn around and blame someone else for the failure. "
That goes for both sides of the equation and its f**king annoying. IMO its one of the reason we cant get good policy.
oldieJul 24, 2010
When you have an open wound, stitching it up is going to hurt. While the immediate pain isn't pleasant, it's necessary to restore your health. There will undoubtedly be some hardship on Arizona as the illegal population is reduced, and it will be exacerbated by the fact that they have to compete with other states still making unfair use of illegal labor. In the end though, they will dramatically reduce the burden on their social programs and the other hidden costs of an illegal population like the flow of money out of the state that would otherwise stay. The net effect will be a healthier Arizona, with the capability to reduce business taxes sufficiently to make up for the loss of cheap labor when seeking to bring more employers into the state.
marogerJul 24, 2010
Make that a WHITER state. And the culture vacuum that goes with it. Any darker-skinned person left in AZ will become more and more of a target as there becomes fewer and fewer of them. How's this an advantage? 29% of the population becomes a target and has no better choice than to leave? Or stay and get treated like s**t.
oldieJul 24, 2010
Do you have any factual basis for that at all? You seem to be implying that whites will automatically target other ethnicities just because there are less of them around; and I'm pretty sure that makes YOU a stereotypical racist. There are a significant number of natural born and naturalized hispanics/blacks/asians/arabics etc.. in Arizona, and I doubt they'll leave for fear of being confused for illegals.
Do you have a solution for Arizona that would let them keep their diversity but still get rid of the illegal population?
trolleyfanJul 24, 2010
"Do you have a solution for Arizona that would let them keep their diversity but still get rid of the illegal population?"
Sure. Make it *easy* to *legally* immigrate, instead of having it a process that takes so long and costs so much, paying thousands of dollars to have a "coyote" stuff you (and fifty others) in the back of a panel truck for a few days in the desert sun - and possibly keep you as slave labor when he's done - sound like an improvement.
dayal911Jul 24, 2010
1) it already is easy to immigrate. My parent's did. My dad's sister did it. The US wants immigrates millions of people a year. There's plenty of immigration. Go to any major university and look at the graduate students of engineering and science curricula. More than half of them are immigrants.
2) You never addressed his first point. You completely ignored it. You have no factual basis for your claims. You're just a bigot who dislikes anything to do with conservatives. You, sir, are a bigot.Comment is buried, click here to see the rest.
particleman420Jul 24, 2010
reverse racism is racism.
benroyJul 24, 2010
You all can call me racist if you want.
Mexican Immigrants are a major factor in the ruining of our economy.
They pay no taxes, they send the majority of their earnings back home to their families in Mexico and subsequently are a drain on the economy.
Large business' and corporations have lobbied to allow these people to enter and stay in the US because of their willingness to work cheaply and forfeit any sort of benefits.
Most Americans would bend-over-backwards for blue collar "Mexican jobs" if they were paid a decent wage and were taken care of the same as any other higher-paid worker would be.
I consider myself a fairly progressive and liberal person. But this bulls**t has gone on for far too long.
There, I said it...Bury me.
mrollieJul 24, 2010
You're spitting alot of misconceptions. I know alot of illegals who pay into social security but wont be able to receive it simply because they are using a fake green card. (Source: http://www.nytimes.com/2005/04/05/business/05immigration.html)
You think illegals get away with sales tax? No sir.
And as for the money they're sending back home, they earned it and can do what they want with it.
particleman420Jul 24, 2010
do they pay their federal and state taxes like actual citizens?
nope.
sweetwater88Jul 24, 2010
You're not racist just stupid.
Business don't hire illegals because they don't want to pay the higher wages to "blue collar" Americans. They hire illegals because they don't want to go through the process of moving they're business overseas.
Business are in the business of making money. If you pay your blue-collar worker $9 an hour to make one object an hour in the US that's $8.50 more than a plant manager in China has to tag to the price of a similar product. And that's just wage. The consumer doesn't care why the first product cost more he just saved $8.50 by buying the Chinese made product.
So the question here lies--are Americans willing to earn close to $0.50 an hour to compete in a global market?
wonderchemistJul 24, 2010
"They pay no taxes."
Surely they pay at least sales tax. Those using 'borrowed' SSN also pay taxes through their employer.
shark72Jul 24, 2010
"They pay no taxes"
Seriously... if you have to lie to support your cause, you may be on the wrong side.
Remember: the IRS states that about half of illegal immigrants pay payroll taxes; other studies put it at up to 75%.
Those who are doing so are contributing to social security, but are unlikely to collect.
And, of course, 100% of illegal immigrants pay the same use taxes that you and I do, like the sales tax and the gasoline tax that pays for Arizona's roads. In Arizona that's $0.37 a gallon; if 100,000 people leave Arizona due to the law and each of them consumed five gallons of gas a week, that's a million bucks less a year that Arizona will have to fix its roads.
If those 100,000 people bought just $50 worth of taxable items per week -- you know, groceries and the like -- that's another $15 million gone from the Arizona economy each year.
But, back to the point. When you start with a lie like "they don't pay taxes," it really doesn't matter what rational arguments you follow it with -- many people will stop reading.
particleman420Jul 24, 2010
oh, so people can stop filing their federal taxes in april?
particleman420Jul 25, 2010
yes, just vote me down. its easier than defending your stupid comments that are so easily shot down that even a caveman can do it.
skankingmikeJul 24, 2010
First most if not all illegals pay into taxes. They pay sales tax on goods purchased, they have to have documentation faked or not and thus they have a social. Now it could be a faked social or a stolen one, however they do pay into social securty by working.
You seriously have a lot of misconceptions based off I assume nothing.
Explain to me these blue colar "mexican" jobs. First many illegal wokers work on Farms and in the restruant industry (less checks) second not everybody here illegally or hispanic is Mexican. There's lots of other people here too.
oldieJul 24, 2010
Let's not forget that those using fake ssn's may still file returns to avoid being looked into by the IRS for dodging, and most qualify for the EITC. Not to mention the use of food stamps and medicaid. Even if they do "pay in" taxes, every one in the United States with a single qualifying child who makes less than ~$40,000 is likely to get more money back on their return, than they paid in through their employers.Comment is buried, click here to see the rest.
skankingmikeJul 24, 2010
there are 40 million people on food stamps (record number currently) And there's an eastimated 12 million illegals. I so who's the other 30 million people?
There are over 46 million people on medicade again who is the remaining?
Those are straw man aurgments.
Bottom line is we need immigration reform. Many American's have no experience with immigration and thus have no sympathy towards those who wish to immigrate legally.
We need to focus on helping not hunting. Write your congressmen tell them what you want done.
smemilyJul 24, 2010
You can't even apply for food stamps or medicaid unless you have birth certs and SS#s for all applicants.
shark72Jul 24, 2010
@Skankingmike: I'm certainly not defending Oldie, but I think he's referring to Medicaid's role in reimbursing hospitals who treat people in emergency rooms. Some percentage of people who can't pay for emergency room visits may be illegal immigrants, and it's those people who concern him.
However, he need not be concerned. Less than ONE PERCENT of Medicaid expenditures go toward providing health care for illegal immigrants:
http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSN1346120320070313
Less than ONE PERCENT.
So what's the total cost of Medicare per year? When that study was done, about $40 million per year. Let's say that it's doubled now to $80 million. One percent of that is $800,000.
Earlier I posted that if just 100,000 people leave Arizona due to the new law, that's $15 million less per year that Arizona will collect in sales tax alone.
This would pay for the yearly Medicare expenses of all the illegal immigrants in the US... *eighteen times over*.
Skankingmike, I agree: the straw men here are just out of control. People are operating on fear and Fox News talking points. There really is room for rational argument over immigration reform. Pity that the proponents of the Arizona law just aren't bringing it.
skankingmikeJul 24, 2010
Exactly these arguments are all s**t. Most of these people do not know illegal or legal immigrants personally. And those that do understand the trials and tribulations. Even to get political asylum here is super hard.
The only immigrant people that have an easy time are Cuban's but that's another topic all together.
grindelwaldJul 24, 2010
As a Brit i don't understand why people are against this bill. It's true that not all illegals are Hispanics but it seems that the majority of them are right?.
smemilyJul 24, 2010
If the majority of illegal immigrants are Hispanic, that doesn't mean the majority of Hispanics are illegal. Nor can you guess that a person is illegal just because they don't speak English well. I'm in a conservative New Mexico town and 1/3 of those in our county don't speak English in the home.
renesisxJul 24, 2010
As a Brit, now a legal immigrant in the USA, I can tell you that becoming legal is one of the most arduous, overly drawn-out, expensive, depressing and tiring processes you can go through.
There are a lot of reasons to be without valid immigration status, even if you arrived into the country legally.
It can takes YEARS to change status, so you're here "illegally" until you get your green card. I've met people who were filling forms and going to interviews for almost a decade before they were finally allowed to be here legally. Ask any of those illegal immigrants - they just want to be here legally and work legally but the process is so weighted against them that they'll never get that chance and they take the only other route and stay here illegally.
imallvol7Jul 24, 2010
Yep, you got it bud.
kamtsaJul 24, 2010
Are you a real brit or did you jump over the fence from France?
nosecohnJul 24, 2010
As a Brit, it's probably hard to get the culture of America in this regard. It's a country of immigrants. Everyone (except for the tiny native American population) is originally from somewhere else. Even if a person's family came here just before the revolution, that's only about 8 generations ago. And the majority of Americans come from families who've only been here since around the turn of the 20th Century. So blocking immigration strikes a deep cultural chord.
Next, as smemily alluded to, there's a huge population of legal Hispanics in that part of the country. They already consider themselves harassed by police, even though they have proper documentation. Some have been there 20 years. As the story says, they have kids who are born, educated and working in the U.S.
And finally, (and this is something I've found that a lot of people from other countries don't understand), for a police officer to stop a random person on the street without cause and ask for identification is considered an infringement of the person's civil liberties in America. The courts have upheld conflicting statutes requiring that the person give his name, but there is no federal requirement to carry identification unless you're doing something that specifically requires it (like driving a car, getting on an airplane or entering a bar). The Arizona law gets around this limitation by saying that officers will only ask to see documents about immigration status if the person is already suspected of another crime, but most latinos don't believe this. They've had a lot of experiences being harassed by law enforcement already, so they figure the cops will just make up some excuse and stop them anyway.
trolleyfanJul 24, 2010
"...but most latinos don't believe this. They figure the cops will just make up some excuse and stop them anyway."
And they're probably right, too.
asimpledadJul 25, 2010
As a legal citizen, I have to present identification to police EVERY time I am pulled over. When I lived in California, the only people who got away with NOT presenting identification were illegals. You also have to present proof you have insurance. Yet, when I would get hit be illegals (more than once) they did not have to show ID nor insurance (because they didn't have it). Instead of any consequence, they were just allowed to leave. Thank god I left that state, but it pissed me off that there were a different set of rules for me, a legal citizen, and those that were breaking the law, in the country illegally, using STOLEN identities and SSNs to get jobs, breaking the INSURANCE laws, etc. Right there, you have me a victim (having to pay to fix my car from their accident) and the person who's SSN was being used a victim. Illegals do not do victimless crime. They hurt many many people with their disregard for our laws.
afewbravemenJul 24, 2010
Grindlewald, as another Brit look past the illegal or legal immigrant stuff that is an effect not a cause. The real problem is the economic gulf between countries and you start too see how f***ed up the world is economically.
Tired of all the racist bulls**t on this. The politicians on all sides and in all countries need too start too deal with the economic disparity between countries. Overvalued, undervalued is a perspective and the gap needs closing. As for fleeing to neighbouring states, joke aside the money that neighbouring state needs for its social programme is going to grow rapidly and that is money they do not have (going to borrow some? more debt - we got loads too). You cannot keep growing a population forever unless you have infinite resources and one day it breaks through sheer weigth of numbers.
Sound familiar? Yep welcome too Britain, my island!
swiftheartJul 24, 2010
"Personally i think the past and current Government are to blame for this. Their inaction creates a vacuum which is now filled by this bill."
Their inaction is due to the fact that there isn't much of a consensus regarding immigration. Everyone and their grandmother has a different opinion about the topic, and so there was little reason for politicians to make any attempt to make changes.
In that light, you see changes happening at the more local level, as consensus can be found there.
dayal911Jul 24, 2010
Brilliant.
nosecohnJul 24, 2010
It's become a hot-button political issue. Nothing was done for so long that the latino population grew large enough to become a powerful voting bloc. Nobody running for office at the Federal level wants to piss them off now, so the issue doesn't get addressed. The latinos who vote are obviously legal, but they may not have been when they originally entered the country, or may know people who aren't legal now.
The last time somebody really tried to do something about this issue on the Federal level was in 1986 under Reagan, and that effort is widely seen as a failure now, at least politically. Arizona claims that it's trying to address an issue that the Federal government has failed to. The thing is, there's some dispute about whether illegal immigration is as big of a problem as they claim, and whether these measure will be beneficial to them overall. It feels a little like what happens in most societies during difficult economic times: blame the foreigners (or those who seem foreign).
asimpledadJul 25, 2010
There are 300 million people in America. There are 12 million illegals. That means for every 30 people, you have 1 breaking the law, using stolen identities for work, normally driving without a license and insurance, etc. Nosecohn, where is there doubt that crime on that level, 1 out of 30 people, Where is the dispute that that kind of lawlessness is an issue that should be dealt with?
nosecohnJul 25, 2010
@ASimpleDad: The law seems to have been passed partly for economic reasons, and there is doubt about the economic cost to the state. I've read widely varying numbers about the true net cost to Arizona. Also, I am not aware of what percentage of people in the country illegally are "using stolen identities for work, normally driving without a license and insurance, etc." I am sure that those who support the law would put forth the idea that this is a widespread problem among illegals, but I haven't seen any studies about that. If you have some hard numbers, I'd be happy to look at them, but the sentiment that all these people are involved in illegal activities (beyond their immigration status) supports my feeling that a lot of the push behind the law is blaming of foreigners.
If you read my comment, you can see that my larger point is that the Federal government has indeed dropped the ball on this issue and let it slide for too long, so I completely understand what Arizona has sought to do something on its own. It's just that I've read conflicting data on the scope of the problem in Arizona, so the law as passed might not end up addressing the real problem, and as this article suggests, might indeed have unintended negative consequences.
theswashbucklerJul 25, 2010
"It's true that not all illegals are Hispanics but it seems that the majority of them are right?"
Not even close.
nosecohnJul 25, 2010
Actually, it is true. Estimates are that 80% of the illegal immigrants are from Latin America.
awintersJul 24, 2010
There were bound to be economic consequences of this choice. Illegals contribute in a vast way to the AZ economy. They are leaving and their relatives who are here legally are leaving with them to keep the families together. That, in addition to the boycotting will hurt the state which is already suffering economically.
But because illegal immigration was allowed to continue for so long unchecked that an economic downturn upon enforcement was inevitable. It is still not an excuse to allow illegal immigration to go on.
imallvol7Jul 24, 2010
I can't believe how many idiots post here. Stop whining. I don't f'cking care if someone asks me to see my ID. I have it on me all the time. It's not like they are pulling you over to search your car or look for drugs. There are no racist motives behind it. If you are supposed to be here, and are legally in this country, show your proof and go about your business. We want immigrants here. LEGAL IMMIGRANTS. I don't care how illegal immigrants leaving effects the economy. It doesn't make them any less illegal or give them any more right to be there. If the federal government isn't going to deal with it, the state is going to have to stand up for itself.
Most of America supports Arizona, so it's not going away. Other states will follow if they see the success Arizona is having.
Comment is buried, click here to see the rest.
wstaglJul 24, 2010
Maybe you should read the law befoe you comment on it
shark72Jul 24, 2010
"There are no racist motives behind it."
On the contrary, it's been well established that the folks behind SB-1070 are members of racist hate groups:
http://gawker.com/5529320/the-racist-hate-group-behind-arizonas-new-immigration-law
The sponsor of the bill, Russell Pearce, got in trouble a while back for sending "white nationalist" manifestos to his supporters.
Is the BILL racist? That's debatable.
Are there racist motives behind it? As the drafters and the sponsor of the bill have long-standing ties to white supremacist organizations and other racist behavior, the answer to that is pretty clear.
particleman420Jul 24, 2010
then i'm sure someone will sue and win.
but i've read it and it states no where anything regarding race.
travelsonicJul 24, 2010
"I can't believe how many idiots post here. Stop whining."
You seem to be the only one whining. Others have for the most part rationaly posting opposing opinions.
[PROTIP: Negativity in of itself != whining, it is the tone and way of conveying the nbegativity]
" I don't f'cking care if someone asks me to see my ID. I have it on me all the time. "
Well, without valid, legal, and firmly established reasons, I DO care. You don't care, good for you, don't use it to insinuate that you speak for more than yourself.
"It's not like they are pulling you over to search your car or look for drugs. "
Given the fact that legal contact and reasonable suspicion are very loosely defined, it is possible.
There are no racist motives behind it. If you are supposed to be here, and are legally in this country, show your proof and go about your business. We want immigrants here. LEGAL IMMIGRANTS. I don't care how illegal immigrants leaving effects the economy. It doesn't make them any less illegal or give them any more right to be there. If the federal government isn't going to deal with it, the state is going to have to stand up for itself.
Most of America supports Arizona, so it's not going away. Other states will follow if they see the success Arizona is having.
jbrevikJul 24, 2010
So vanishing shopping centers is directly related to SB1070? Give me a break. If anyone has lived in Phoenix for more than 10 years, they know this is really common. The city has been expanding exponentially since I was born here and it continues to grow. The result? You guessed it, abandoned shopping centers and failing businesses in low income areas. Try going a little bit farther west. Im almost positive your story wont be the same
sweetwater88Jul 24, 2010
So this is my experience traveling through Arizona/New Mexico on a bus. Bus stops, cop/border agent? comes in and sees the dark skinned Hispanics and asks for their papers or says "Are you US citizen" (all US citizens, everyone questioned shows ID and SS or speaks perfect English) and the cop leaves. Bus moves on.
Everyone on that bus was Hispanic, including me--but you know I'm white so why should the cop bother? Not like anyone white on that bus was Hispanic right? Well, the 5 guys in the back were illegals--but were very fortunate to be born light skinned.
callmeroosterJul 24, 2010
I wonder how many people will have just learned that you can be Hispanic and white at the same time.
I wanna see a show of hands here, people.
stillhateyouJul 24, 2010
That can't possibly be true, SB 1070 specifically prohibits profiling!
beermakerJul 24, 2010
LoL... one friend did once the same thing when he whent for shopping and had no visa. Almost the same story
pilot85Jul 24, 2010
Border patrol agents also do this on the canadian border. I was asked whether I was a U.S. citizen while on an amtrak train, of all things. He asked everyone in the car but he didn't look at ID, as far as I could tell.
skankingmikeJul 24, 2010
What happens if they didn't have anything but a driver's lisence? But they were born here? I know lots of legal hispanics, have some that are family. Do people from Puerto Rico have to justify their citizenship too? Last I checked it's not required to walk around with any form of ID if you're a citzen.
smemilyJul 24, 2010
And the thing is that a NM driver's license isn't even a valid form of ID in AZ, because NM licenses illegal immigrants.
hydesJul 24, 2010
so what your saying is that you said nothing about the 5 illegals you knew were on that bus. you are part of the reason we have a problem with illegal immigrants.Comment is buried, click here to see the rest.
particleman420Jul 24, 2010
this horrible blight of racist law was perfectly documented in the educational film "Born in East LA"
/rolleyes
particleman420Jul 26, 2010
not a lot of cheech marin fans on digg?
it was a pretty decent documentary
shiftymhJul 24, 2010
If so many people are leaving, I think it's time to up the price of those tote bags.
dayal911Jul 24, 2010
Fleeing Arizona out of Fear of ILLEGAL Immigration Law
Fixed.
I'm sick of them calling it the IMMIGRATION law. This law does NOTHING for Immigration policy. It does NOT create or modify immigration laws. It's an ENFORCEMENT law for ILLEGAL immigration.
chilidogsJul 24, 2010
Cause it will not just effect illegal immigrants.
dayal911Jul 24, 2010
Please tell me how a non-illegal will be affected differently from any other law?
Why does California have a similar law to AZ? Where's your outrage over that?
Driving with out a license? You can already get arrested for that.
Remember, there has to be reasonable suspicion, and racial profiling is against the law.
jimbo92107Jul 24, 2010
Hey, Arizona will be the first state to really find out what it's like to live without cheap immigrant labor. Congratulations!
tsothaJul 24, 2010
Yeah, won't that suck when American citizens without a college degree get paid a decent wage?
chrisvazquez1Jul 24, 2010
Are you a conservative? @tsotha?
tsothaJul 24, 2010
Yes, of course. I have an IQ over 70.
edwarddouglasJul 24, 2010
If they LA Times is trying to scare the white people in AZ about when will happen when a lot of these people leave it wont work. The areas of phoenix around the NE valley like scottsdale and paradise valley are virtually all white so I doubt most of those people will notice any change.
ddttoxJul 24, 2010
But you can bet that they will bitch like crazy when the cost of their weekly landscaping service goes up.
particleman420Jul 24, 2010
thats funny, i know a bunch of landscaping services that dont hire illegals
ddttoxJul 25, 2010
How do you know they are not illegal?
beigemoreJul 24, 2010
Guess it's time to move to AZ.
hydesJul 24, 2010
im already working on buying a house
floldguyJul 24, 2010
Finally! A law that works! No problem here.
dustin00Jul 24, 2010
Until it gets used:
Police bust somebody. Turn 'em over to INS. INS has no space so they give them a court date (currently 7 years out) and a SSN so they can get a legal job while they wait (nobody wants to pay to house/feed them for 7 years)... which they can then use to get a legal driver's license.
Totally f**ked up.Comment is buried, click here to see the rest.
Closed AccountJul 24, 2010
Arizona's economy has relied upon migrant workers from south of the border for nearly a century. So yeah, an impact was inevitable.
schroederJul 24, 2010
How about instead of going after the illegal immigrants themselves, government goes after the businesses that are illegally hiring them. Audit the employment records and account for all employees. If businesses weren't cheap and exploiting these people, there would be no reason for them to come here. Fine heavily. That is the real solution.
ddttoxJul 24, 2010
But it is one that will never happen. Businesses thrive on cheap, easily exploited labor. Business also have money and there for more representation in state and federal government than the rest of us. You don't really think the politicians will go after campaign donors do you? What do you think would happen if INS really started busting down doors at Tyson Corp chicken plants? INS staffers would get fired. No, the easiest thing to do is whip up phony outrage at a bunch of illiterate peasants in order to get votes and leave the the real constituents (the corporations) alone.
hydesJul 24, 2010
read the law, they do however they rely on citizens/legal immigrants to blow the whistle and give the information so they can obtain a warrant to perform the search and get proof of the employer hiring illegals
smargJul 24, 2010
f**k L.A. Times for this bulls**t illegal sob story! Most of main liberal rags do it, especially on the East Coast. Sickening.
Next time you see an illegal with an anchor baby grab it by the ankles and fling it back over the border.
Comment is buried, click here to see the rest.
defendlibertyJul 24, 2010
lol @ anchorbaby. So true, but it's more like half a dozen anchor babies.
AZ born and raised,
methdwman3Jul 24, 2010
I cannot imagine LEGAL citizens picking up their family and leaving, in the midst of such a large recession, because they are afraid to show their ID's to cops. Having illegals afraid that the laws will actually be enforced is a GOOD thing; the fact that we have gotten to the point where people are proud of their illegal status, like it is a badge of honor, has landed us 12 million illegals. I
trolleyfanJul 24, 2010
"I cannot imagine LEGAL citizens picking up their family and leaving, in the midst of such a large recession, because they are afraid to show their ID's to cops."
Then you lack imagination...
methdwman3Jul 24, 2010
It wreaks to me of all the celebs who say they will leave the US if so and so is elected - empty threats. The cost of picking up your family and moving to another state, unless you have a job lined up and proper housing, is pretty large - I call complete bulls**t on this.
tsothaJul 24, 2010
You're right. There's no actual evidence this is happening. My guess is in the few cases where legal residents are leaving it has more to do with illegal family members than anything else.
particleman420Jul 24, 2010
thanks ronald reagan for that.
rodvezJul 25, 2010
WAIT....WHAT????
A BADGE OF HONOR??
GTFO
I swear if I had a nickel for every idiot on the internet making a bunch of ludicrous claims about stuff they don't know.
Next time think "I should read a book before I open my mouth."
picaloJul 24, 2010
good maybe they will realize that paper states are nazi like states.
f**k you and your paper requirements.
duneadxJul 24, 2010
Every time I've ever been stopped by the police, they have checked my ID.
shark72Jul 24, 2010
Are you aware that in most states, you have the right to decline to show your ID? It's one of those freedoms that's rare outside of the US and I think it's one of those little things that make America great.
But it's not the case any more in Arizona.
Little by little, our freedoms are being eroded.
derangedpenguinJul 24, 2010
True you have the right to decline to show your ID but, you can then be handcuffed and taken to the local station until your identity is confirmed. The choice is yours show your ID and get your ticket for 33 in a 25 and be on your way in 15 minutes or not show you ID, get taken down to the police station for a couple of hours to be ID'ed, get your ticket for 33 in a 25 and then pay the impound fee to get your car back after it was towed. NICE to have a choices.
shark72Jul 24, 2010
@DerangedPengin, to what state are you referring to?
You're talking about a traffic violation (33 in a 25). In California, you need not show a driver's license -- all you have to do is give your driver's license number. Regardless of state laws on ID carry, you must have a driver's license to drive in all of them. But you need not show your ID, and -- with the exception of Arizona -- you certainly don't need to show your green card.
That being said, I don't profess to be an expert on the law in your state, but I'm curious what state you're referring to.
For those just joining us, the Supreme Court decision affirming our freedoms with regard to ID cards is Hiibel v. Sixth Judicial Dist. Court. It essentially makes it a states' rights issue by stating that such laws don't violate the fourth amendment.
But, how states write their own laws vary. In California, there's no law requiring carrying of an ID card, and refusing to identify ones' self is not a crime. The only exception here is whether the officer suspects you of commiting a criminal offense (and "criminal offense" is one of the key differences betweeen the California and Arizona laws).
But, YMMV state to state. As DerangedPenguin pointed out, in his state, you can be arrested for failing to identify yourself even if you're pulled over for a minor traffic violation and there's no evidence otherwise that you've committed a crime. On the face of it, this sounds like it may tread on unconstitutionality, but I'll take DP's word on it and just be thankful that I don't live in his state.
mokomJul 24, 2010
Would be funny, if everyone left...
keithlolbermannJul 24, 2010
Would be funny, if everyone knew how to use commas...
bdbrJul 24, 2010
In my state, any major issue that can obtain enough petition signatures is put to a vote. I think this is a good way to keep the elected officials from doing things that people oppose (sure, we can vote them out of office, but by then its too late).
HOWEVER, a Rasmussen poll in April showed that "70% of likely voters in Arizona approve of the legislation, while just 23% oppose it." Even the majority of Democrats approved of it. This is a republic in action - the government exerting the will of the people. If it turns their economy to s**t...well that's what the people wanted.
bdbrJul 24, 2010
A Rasmussen poll in April showed that "70% of likely voters in Arizona approve of the legislation, while just 23% oppose it." Even the majority of Democrats approved of it. This is a republic in action - the government enacting the will of the people. Surely Arizonans knew there would be economic consequences.
trolleyfanJul 24, 2010
"Surely Arizonans knew there would be economic consequences."
Hah, hah, hah, that's funny...
...oh, were you serious?
Sure they "knew" there would be economic consequences. It's just that the knowledge of what those would be was supplied by a bunch of racist, right-wing bulls**t artists - and the majority of them were, as usual, taken in completely, thinking that without all those annoying brown people, everything would get better.
Surprise!
smemilyJul 24, 2010
Too bad it's supposed to be a CONSTITUTIONAL republic.
trashyamericanJul 24, 2010
america was always a racist country. racism, segregation-- it's in americans' blood to hate someone or something. that is why they're always at war with someone, and when there is no one to fight, they declare wars on inanimate objects, like drugs.
now, picture for a second that squeezed amongst all of these mouth-breathing rednecks is a tiny population of decent folks trying to survive in an atmosphere of hatred, paranoia, and xenophobia. they do one wrong thing and the rednecks will unleash a campaign crossburning, lynchings, and other sorts of bullying and harassment. now, picture you're in a tiny room full of these meth addicts and somebody just turned off the air conditioning. that is arizona.Comment is buried, click here to see the rest.
dreadpirateJul 25, 2010
Tell me, TA - Does it hurt to be as condenscending, arrogant, and downright stupid as you are? Based on the statements you continually spout here on digg it seems that you have never travelled outside of new york city, and are therefore completely unqualified to say anything about the rest of country. All you can do is stereotype day in and day out without any real experience to back your BS statements up.
Come back when you've graduated high school and actually done something with your life, and see if you still can spout the same nonsense.
thomasmcJul 24, 2010
Just as the Jews fled Germany, when the nAZis took over there, too.
defendlibertyJul 24, 2010
Jews wouldn't break your f**king window to steal your cd-wallet on your seat, or rear-end you and then run.
I've been rear-ended 3 times in AZ, all 3 were illegals and 1 tried to run. I chased the f**ker down and the police took him away. He had a warrant out for rape and of course not one English word came out of his mouth.
Good riddance to the bad apples.
particleman420Jul 24, 2010
and even less rambo-y and dramatic, if you get into a car accident with an illegal with no insurance, how does one track them down to hold them responsible?
fake ID, fake name, fake address, no insurance. but they're just poor innocent people that cause no harm and just want to work here.
anonthepyroJul 24, 2010
@Oldie: Read the article. The LEGAL hispanics are leaving as well.
hydesJul 24, 2010
if a law that has virtually no effect on them is causing them to leave that is their problem. nobody is making them leave
rodvezJul 25, 2010
You're a joke. I don't want to live a state where I am being profiled and questioned about legality based on my skin color. Again more people talking without thinking...
If you had any bit of morality you would realize how degrading it is for a group of PEOPLE to be so misunderstood and wrongly treated based on a bunch of sterotypes which are FALSE,
hydesJul 25, 2010
did you read the law rodvez? your words imply that you have not.
but guess what, you don't have to live there if you want to. thats what makes this country better than any others. we could easily make our laws like all the other western countries and enforce them as well and guess what those 12 million illegals will drop very fast. the only reason this can be thought of as profiling is because virtually all of the illegals in Arizona are Hispanic. the law applies to illegals of all nationalities not just Mexicans.
tsothaJul 24, 2010
I would like to see some actual evidence legal residents who don't have an illegal family member living with them are leaving Arizona because of this law.
So far there isn't any.
isenborgJul 24, 2010
"Waaaaaaaaa! Those poor criminals. Won't you please help?"
-Sally Struthers
monvalleyJul 24, 2010
OK, so they are fleeing (although I doubt that) so does that mean the state is no longer paying subsidized housing, food stamps, free medical, unemployment, etc.?. Or are the people fleeing all good tax paying citizens looking for a better life? Either way, sounds like a good deal for both the state and the fleeing people.
louishenJul 24, 2010
There is one sure way to prevent illegal immigrants.
Create a bankrupt economy and erase citizen rights. After all, both N. Korea and Zimbabwe don't have an immigrant problem, in fact quite the opposite, most people are trying to get out.
Oh, hang on.... Arizona are already setting off on that path!
Comment is buried, click here to see the rest.
tsothaJul 24, 2010
Well, if they're moving to California in search of a better economy, the joke's on them.
k1k1r1k1Jul 24, 2010
My theory is that the same people that support this law see nothing wrong in us torturing terrorists. IE: take the easy way out. God forbid there be an intellectual solution to the problem. As someone who has gone through the citizenship process, I can tell you that the problem isn't in the weak walls down south, it's an overly complicated process to gain citizenship. Cost alone being a major deterrent. You won't need to build a multibillion dollar wall if you're smart about how you process immigrants. Whatever happened to give me your tired, your poor? It's a complicated issue and it's far from "they're here illegally, they're criminals." Arizona is reacting to it like a little child instead getting tough with the federal government to get it's s**t straight. Organize the other boarder states and put some pressure on Washington. Now their current solution might backfire on the horribly and the only people that will pay the price are the legal citizens of the state. Comment is buried, click here to see the rest.
particleman420Jul 24, 2010
well your theory is flawed because enforcing immigration law isnt not equal to torturing people.
and "it's hard!" isnt a reason to just say f**k it and let everyone in.
k1k1r1k1Jul 25, 2010
Of course it's not equal directly. What's equal is that both of the solutions are a direct and inefficient approach that will have greater concequences than benefits. Not to mention moraly wrong.
Speaking specifically about the Arizona law, you can write it any way you want. At the end of the day the realaties set in that officers will have to question mostly mexican looking citizens/non-citizens. There's no way around it; it's profiling. It's a half-assed solution to a serious problem to put it lightly.
Also, I never said "f**k it and let everyone in." I said revise the current immigration process because it's obvious that it's broken when good people choose to be "criminals" over taking the legal route.
rodvezJul 25, 2010
Haha that guys a joke.
particleman420Jul 25, 2010
so then you dont have a problem with the law since it states nothing like you describe. just the possibility that some rogue cops my go on a racist spree.
the same thing could be said about ANY law. the cops could profile anyone for anything if they wanted. do you suggest we just get rid of all of our laws because some cops might profile people for s**ts and giggles?
yousnameJul 24, 2010
Ok, so we had an untaxed, multi-million dollar, shadow economy here along with all of the kidnapping, murder, and human trafficking? That baby can go out with the bathwater as far as I am concerned.
When I lived in (Ahwatukee [a pretty respectable enclave of Phoenix]), we had a van load of illegals forced of the road and kidnapped at gunpoint around a mile from my house. Don't criticize us for trying to protect ourselves if you're not from here. You don't understand the situation.
tsothaJul 24, 2010
The coastal liberals are afraid the local Mexican restaurant will close down. Doesn't that trump your petty fears about murder and kidnapping?
k1k1r1k1Jul 25, 2010
No-one's saying you shouldn't be able to protect yourself or denying the fact that illegals are a major cause for violent crimes down there. What many people are saying is the way you're going about it is wrong. More than one way to skin a cat.
brakkenJul 24, 2010
I live in Arizona. Seriously, why would an immigrant move out of the State unless they were here illegally, know someone that is (must be really close to move) or are blind, deaf and dumb and, God help help them, listen to the mainstream media.
chilidogsJul 24, 2010
Yeah, why would any one leave a state that is clearly hostile to them?
particleman420Jul 24, 2010
except for the "clearly" and "Hostile" part, you're right on the money!
brakkenJul 25, 2010
If they are in the country illegally then why would us tax paying citizens want our money going towards keeping them alive (health care, housing, food stamps) instead of going back to us when we get old and need it. I say screw the illegals - they should be shot on sight trying to enter the country.Comment is buried, click here to see the rest.
rodvezJul 25, 2010
I hope somebody blows your head clear off because you're either morally retarded or just a total idiot. Also they pay taxes to you take it from their checks, you take it from their everyday purchases...and they never see it back.
k1k1r1k1Jul 25, 2010
I'm going to assume you're white... imagine if in whatever state you're in they started profiling white people and everyone looked down on white people beacuse they were the root cause of violent crime. Regardless of how good of a citizen you are you'd be viewed the same. Yea, ... blind deaf and dumb...
Also your comment about shooting them on sight... gold.
brakkenJul 25, 2010
It's not uncommon for "white" people to get stopped and their ID checked when they are in violation of the law. You my friend are "racist" - deny it or not. I've been stopped plenty of times and my ID checked and I didn't complain because I had nothing to hide. The illegals have everything to hide. Also, illegals usually get work "under the table" meaning they pay no taxes (a reply to rodvezrodvez). Sure, sales tax, but the majority of what they make is untaxed or they don't work at all and just leech off of people who do work.
Unless you live in a highly effected area of illegal immigration you have no voice in this matter.
boody78Jul 25, 2010
Am I the only one that thinks collecting SS from people when they can't collect is taking advantage of them? It seems like some of the people against this law think that using people for cheap labor costs and sales tax are good things? I think immigration law helps protect people from this sort of exploitation. If you employ someone with no SS # or ID how do you even know how old they are? They could be 10 years old for all you know. Is that OK? Is it "profiling" for the department of labor to ask someone how old they are and demand proof of age? If people are desperate for work does that make it ok to pay them a low wage? If you allow people to do it they will be taken advantage of, and I think that it is sad that so many people here seem to advicate it.
earthwormzimJul 25, 2010
DERKA DERRRRR!