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melbanSep 10, 2010
Worked for me. Small cheap tech school and 15 months later a good job and a head start on other people my same age
GratefulGrassSep 10, 2010
© ITT Tech
robbiedoSep 11, 2010
Interesting..
I was in discussions today with upper management in converting a contract employee to full time. Basically, the answer was "no college degree, no permanent position."
Is he capable of the job? Yes. However, he will never be able to grow past his current skill set, and is not considered a good investment.
Closed AccountSep 11, 2010
That's a pretty poor argument. College graduates won't grow past their current skill sets either unless they learn - and evolve - At the job.
Most of what you learn is on the job, for that matter.
This is something that doesn't discriminate between college and non-college graduates.
Seems more like upper management is full of s**t.
robbiedoSep 11, 2010
Education is an important part of the company culture, and the company pays better than average industry wages. It pays outsize rewards with increased education attainment, and underwrites significant tuition and training costs to employees who obtain graduate degrees.
It's a mixed bagged, but the goal is to hire really smart adaptive people since the company is ultimately the value of its IP. However, it creates two tier of rewards for college grads and non college grads.
This is not uncommon for companies like Google.
robbiedoSep 11, 2010
I should clarify my comment. No one said, "No college, no permanent position." What was said is that there is a limited amount of permanent hiring, and it makes no sense not to get the most capable, adaptive hire possible. It takes the same available position to hire a more educated, more experienced person than a less educated, experienced position. (and pay that person more money).
JHanesSep 11, 2010
My wife just got her Masters about a month ago and literally got a higher position paying 35% more. Depends on the field you want to go into. Even in business most jobs prefer higher degrees. The BA will beat out the HS diploma, and the MBA will beat them both. There are only a few Bill Gates out there who can do what he did without a college degree. Possible but rare. I wouldn't bank on it. That being said I have loans the cost of a high end Porsche. I'm very educated and have a nice job, but I'd rather not have that debt. The internet will change things.
natru3alSep 11, 2010
This is the old argument Education vs. The Degree. Some people go to college just to get a degree in something so they in turn can make a living. Others have a passion for something and use the education to apply to what/who they want to be.
mikeholmesSep 16, 2010
Absolutely! I went to college for a degree and I found it to be a complete waste of time. I do think there is a difference between education and schooling. Education is getting the best out of you while schooling just makes you a drone
Closed AccountSep 10, 2010
Student loans are the new subprime mortgages.
nygenxerSep 11, 2010
I agree.
A degree used to be a ticket to the middle class but because of changing foreign policy and trade agreements, that $50K piece of paper now means that one must compete with a foreign national who lives quite comfortably on $4.50 an hour - clearly "underwater." [I'm an electrical engineer.]
If you bought a house that you couldn't afford because you believe that what goes up keeps going up, you're an idiot. (You may have been conned, but you're still an idiot, albeit a greedy idiot.) A country that allows the outsourcing of technological know-how is committing suicide in exchange for short-term profit; working hard to obtain a college degree only to have the government and corporations pull the rug out after the fact is outright theft that turns those with middle-class ambition into indentured servants.
One can usually walk away from an underwater house. The student loan debt associated with an underwater college degree stays with you forever like herpes.
That's where the national focus should be: dumb people do dumb things but hamstringing a generation of the nation's intelligentsia with permanent debt is even dumber. Bottom line: no jobs = no loan payments = collapse.
aladinsaneSep 11, 2010
There's nothing Digg loves more than someone who posts something completely stupid. "College loans are the new subprime mortgages! HUR HUR HUR!" Yeah, they're completely the same, except for every single detail.
Student Loans are the lowest-interest loans you will EVER receive. Futhermore, they can usually be deferred almost indefinitely. My wife had 90% of her student loans paid by the company that hired her as a perk for signing a five-year contract with them. But please, continue to say dumb, pointless things. It's ever so helpful.
canyoucountSep 11, 2010
As I understand it, Student loans can be *deferred* for a long time.. but unlike many other kinds of debt you can't ever get rid of them, even through declaring bankruptcy.
nygenxerSep 13, 2010
@aladinsane:
Actually, no...although interest rates are low, they are higher than the rate at which the government lends the money to an unnecessary middle man. [This has been changed by the Obama administration very recently.]
"Deferred almost indefinitely"? That is also incorrect. There is an application process that gives little regard to current financial conditions aka the so-called economic deferment. [Again, there have been changes very recently.] BTW, the appeals process is essentially nonexistent.
I'm glad your wife was lucky enough to find steady employment for a company that pays her student loans. Surely you are not stupid enough to think this is how things are for most people, so why bring it up unless you are actually that stupid.
Oh, and all bets are off if you default, which is incredibly easy to do. At that point, you are bent over a barrel by the lenders with the backing of the government without standard consumer protections for the rest of your life or until the loan is paid off with interest rates and penalties beyond the usury rates charged by (illegal) organized crime on a debt which is almost never, ever discharged. Get hit by a bus tomorrow and become quadriplegic, and the bastards will garnish the social security insurance payments keeping you alive.
Yeah, the student loan crisis is worse than the subprime mortgages. When somebody loses a house, there's still the property to repossess. What can be repossessed on a defaulted student loan?
And since you are obviously ignorant, perhaps you haven't heard that this process has been accelerated by unscrupulous for-profit schools like University of Phoenix and the Art Institute et. al. Like the subprime mortgages, people are tricked by the institution to take out loans backed by the US gov't regardless of their ability to pay because the institution gets paid immediately.
But you go right ahead and shoot your mouth off about s**t you have no f**king clue about. I like it when people say dumb, pointless things because it lets me know where the dumb, pointless people are.
PS Stay there.
nygenxerSep 14, 2010
From September 13th:
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/09/14/education/14c...
The default rate on federal student loans continued to rise last year, with the rate for students at for-profit colleges — already the highest — rising the fastest.
“While for-profit schools have profited and prospered thanks to federal dollars, some of their students have not,” Mr. Duncan said in a statement Monday. “Far too many for-profit schools are saddling students with debt they cannot afford in exchange for degrees and certificates they cannot use.”
mattbernsonSep 10, 2010
If you put that tuition $ towards starting your own business you would be 4 years into your company by the time you turn 22. While most 18 year olds might not make the wisest decisions, the ones that do it right would be light years ahead of most other people. If you want to be a philosopher, then starting your own philosophy consulting company might not be that lucrative. But there wouldn't be much competition....Comment is buried, click here to see the rest.
Closed AccountSep 10, 2010
the thing is, there can't possibly be more business's than there are people. if everyone started their own company, there would be no one left to employ in it. a large sum of business's fail outright or struggle to stay afloat. with the abundance of large corporations, small and beginning companies can't compete except under only special conditions and circumstances. the whole point is for a business to be lucrative whether there is competition or not, but that doesn't mean it will be.
bobburn1Sep 10, 2010
Actually, they'd be 2 years post running their business into the ground. There's a reason the vast majority of businesses fail: because the people starting them have no f**king clue what they're doing.
Closed AccountSep 10, 2010
I don't think it's only due to that. most business's don't offer anything new, just the same old of this or that at another location, one of dozens or hundreds of listings in the yellow pages and online.
there are very few business's you could start that has to do with something everyone needs but doesn't have a great supply of.
canyoucountSep 10, 2010
It depends on why you're there, what you put in, and how much it costs. But for most 19 year olds I'm pretty sure the answer is.. "yes".
samurimasterSep 11, 2010
But then ask the males of said 19 year olds about college chicks
superman101Sep 10, 2010
Strange article. It writes about all these very famous people who don't have a college degree. What it doesn't mention is the success rate. What percentage of 'successful' people have college degrees?
I think though, its main point is that student loans really killers.
Closed AccountSep 10, 2010
The last stat I saw was over 75%, most with a bachelor's degree
skidooerSep 10, 2010
I think the real question is what percentage of people who _try hard_ to become successful without a degree become successful?
There will always be people who are content with coasting through life, skewing the numbers in favour of college (i.e. nobody who coasts through life is going to attend college).
dauntless1Sep 11, 2010
That's kind of the point. College is a yardstick by which a company can measure a student's willingness to get off their ass and make themselves better, so the better jobs and positions are offered to people who have shown their willingness to work to improve themselves.
skidooerSep 11, 2010
I do not disagree, but that does not give us any indication as to the importance of college as it relates to success. If 100% of all determined, non-educated people are successful, than there is no benefit to acquiring that education as it relates to success.
ccpandaSep 10, 2010
After 3 years in college I was making almost as much freelancing as when I graduated, but I am still glad that I went all 4 years and I think that college gave me the ability to ease from life in Kansas into a New York City business life that would have been much tougher to just dive into head first.
To each there own. I may have loans up to my eyeballs but even though a good 20-30% of my pay goes back to loans I wouldn't have done it any different.
begbegbegbegbegSep 10, 2010
The time and money you spent certainly did wonders for your sentence structure, spelling and grammar.
(That's sarcasm, in case you hadn't noticed.)Comment is buried, click here to see the rest.
ccpandaSep 10, 2010
Well I suppose it's a good thing I went to school for Computer Animation and Visual Effects, and not to a liberal arts college.
t440Sep 11, 2010
Yeah, because then you wouldn't have a job.
csdcoSep 11, 2010
I was in the same position as you but did not finish my degree. I couldn't secure any more student loans from federal or private institutions to finish. It was pretty unfortunate, and I wish i had a degree; but I was suddenly making great cash freelancing and after my last semester started doing it full time. It's turned into a successful business for me, where I have made significant jumps in income year-over-year, regardless of the financial markets.
Clients have not asked about my education. I think my skillset is broad and well developed... If I deliver a great product then they get what they paid for.
Not sure if I'll ever enter the corporate world; I have turned down several offers to date because there wasn't an advantage in pay and I prefer to own my own time.
csdcoSep 11, 2010
Not sure if my comment sounds c**ky -- my point was (and I tried to edit the comment but the damn timer beat me to it) that I've *had* to educate myself to gain a professional level of skills.
College or no-college, it's a life long process to stay up-to-date on technology.
eagles7977Sep 10, 2010
I guess if you think your future is a bad investment.
daevanSep 10, 2010
The truth is that college is always a good investment if you plan on using your gained experience. You don't NEED college to be successful, but you can't really lose from going if you can pay loans.
What people need to realize is that college isn't always a free job. You're still going to be in heated competition in the job market, with or without a degree. The key is that when you have a degree, you are qualified for better jobs and can probably land any non-degree holder's job quicker.
I hate sensationalist article titles.
drekorSep 10, 2010
I might be misunderstanding your point, but it's gotten hard for degree holders to compete for jobs that don't require one. You're seen as being "overqualified", which translates into, "You're just taking this as a temp job 'til something better comes along, so why should we invest in you?"
dhammettSep 10, 2010
"Overqualified" also means you are probably way too smart for the job. Smart people are more likely to cause problems for the organization since they get bored with the lack of stimulation from their work. Workers that are too smart for their jobs are also more likely to rip off the company successfully without being noticed or to start rebellions and uprisings about crappy work conditions.Comment is buried, click here to see the rest.
devnulldoodSep 10, 2010
Overqualified means you will cost to much. They will have to pay you more than someone without a degree.
bobburn1Sep 10, 2010
That's not true at at all devnulldood. When a job advertises generally there is a "salary" or "wage" offered. Why would they move the amount UP when hiring any person unless they REALLY wanted him.
pkfxSep 11, 2010
The thing is, Bob, it's not that I'm lazy, it's that I just don't care.
Closed AccountSep 11, 2010
The issue is that, more often than not, people who attend college ultimately cannot afford those loans and are only doing it for the "guaranteed job". Most people of our generation, and this is reinforced by their parents, believe that a college degree ensures you a good position in life.
It just doesn't. If you want a good position in life, try to inherit a house that does not have a mortgage.
charlesnorbertSep 10, 2010
So apparently, a kid, who goes to college, and ends up working at Walmart will suddenly be self-motivated to pursue an entrepreneurial path, forging his or her own company if he doesn't go to college. The way in which the author looks at the statistics suffers from deep flaws. If he is trying to evaluate the value of an education, he must look at all college students and compare the college degree, the masters degree, or no degree to actual income from those data sets. By saying college students can end up at Walmart, but non-college students can be Bill Gates, he is partaking in such a feat of self-selected data points it is insane. How about we look at the number of drop outs working at Walmart, and the number of college graduates running Fortune 500 companies. I hate that this type of misleading data could prevent a kid from getting a good education. It is flame bait this article.
dauntless1Sep 11, 2010
Yeah, the article sucks. Unfortunately, many people want to believe that they don't need a college degree for anything, ever, simply because they're too f**king lazy or stupid to get one.
umairsandhuibaSep 10, 2010
its the current economic situation that is making people think so ... the buying power is down and where the herd mentality before was to go for a college degree now the herd mentality is to go for a cheaper degree or business but mind you .. that wont also work in the current situation so .. although current situation may support what hes saying but college degree is an investment and it will help you always .. otherwise for people who dont have a business aptitude no other way is the right wayComment is buried, click here to see the rest.
c_calienteSep 10, 2010
Is Digg v4 a bad investment?
m3g4tr0nSep 10, 2010
If you like Reddit it isn't.
umairsandhuibaSep 10, 2010
in a spending culture like America .. where spending glutton is killing the people a more saving oriented culture build up would also help
darkshroudSep 10, 2010
Statistics are already showing that Americans are not spending on credit anymore and paying their personal debt off. Which is part of the economies problem, we don't make the majority of goods here anymore. So it's affecting the economy in many different ways.
michaelrod77Sep 10, 2010
I decided to skip college and headed into the job market. Yes, it wasn't easy at first, but I always considered myself smart enough to make it without a degree. After learning about business by working the first 2 years out, I started my own business and have been very successful.
My clients don't ask where I went to school or if I have a degree... they just love the work we do here. I wouldn't trade what I've got now for 4-6 years in a university. My business is flourishing and not only am I my own boss, but I know for sure I get to take more vacations and lead more relaxed life than the majority of my "degreed" counterparts.
Then again, it also depends on the person... if you're the type who can self-start, then skip college. If not, follow the herd.
duncan202Sep 10, 2010
Who are the f**king insecure losers who would digg this down?
skidooerSep 10, 2010
"My clients don't ask where I went to school or if I have a degree."
It is kind of a silly question when you think about it. Do you ask your grocer if the farmer who grew your food has a Ph.D in agriculture? Do you ask Microsoft if every one of their employees has a degree before you purchase your copy of Windows? Of course not. It simply doesn't matter.
xmraxSep 10, 2010
Microsoft will hire those with degrees over others every time. Most software companies do this.
skidooerSep 10, 2010
If they chanced that policy would you stop buying their products? I saw a recent Apple job posting for a design job that explicitly stated that education was not a consideration.
xmraxSep 10, 2010
What should the applicant expect to being doing in this job? I assure you whoever gets that job won't be doing the more important work and will have a smaller salary.
theworldisflatSep 11, 2010
No, Microsoft would hire whom ever showed the greatest growth potential and was able to pass the tech screens. I know, I work there, and I've done inteviewes for newhires.
Google and EMC also pull folks all the time w/o degrees. Experience is king in this industry.
WreckedEmSep 11, 2010
Shut up and mow my lawn.
Closed AccountSep 11, 2010
I have to agree here. I am in the IT industry and I have never been asked about a degree. I did a diploma that covered all the technical skills I wanted and got a job before I was even done with my final exams. I asked my manager at the time about her opinion about me doing further studies (which mostly included project management type subjects which I had no interest in) and she told me that experience to her as an employer plays a far greater role than what you have on paper. The amount of knowledge that I have gained in the field puts me in a much better position at the moment than the people I know that went out and did IT degrees.
silv23Sep 11, 2010
Agriculture is a legitimate science and you'd be surprised how many farmers have degrees or special education related to it.
13point1Sep 11, 2010
A successful personal trainer at the gym where I work, doing 40 hours a week, could earn upwards of $3k a month. The investment is $500 or so and maybe 8 weeks of studying for personal training certification - not a bad return, if you ask me. Of course, once a trainer accrues that kind of demand, he can always go independent and start charging significantly more than the $22/hr that he was making at the gym. It's not a bad lifestyle for the non-degreed professional.Comment is buried, click here to see the rest.
atomic1fireSep 11, 2010
Part of it is location though,
If you can get a job without a degree, or start a successful business great, but aquiring a skillset through a tech or trade school won't hurt either,
and depending on where you go, a tech school is probably shorter then a 4 year collage, and can transfer into a collage career if you have the right credits.
fr33tochooseSep 11, 2010
tell us about your business
princetrunksSep 10, 2010
Yep, waste of money. I make more $ selling anime figures online than what my overrated Computer Science degree can get me. Most of the world's billionaires didn't even graduate from college. College is a great way to be placed in mediocrity and a life time of struggling. I was going to say the creator of Digg was a good example of this but if V4 continues to suck...he'll have to go back to school.
ccpandaSep 10, 2010
My uncle collects and sells money. I actually thought about doing it at one point but he has had so many problems with the government questioning why he take out thousands of dollars and returns thousands more on a VA pension that it doesn't seem worth it.
princetrunksSep 10, 2010
I have a friend who collects old/collectible notes. It can be a business but yeah, the govenment probably might wonder :-/
ccpandaSep 10, 2010
It doesn't help that my uncle has an arrest record for possessing a large quantity of marijuana when he was younger.
princetrunksSep 10, 2010
yeah, that doesn't help :-/
znineSep 11, 2010
I find this a bit hard to believe. The average starting salary for a CS graduate is about $61k. That means $85-90k including benefits. Your figurine business does better than that?
princetrunksSep 11, 2010
Almost there, but when your boss tells you to jump you have to ask "how high?" One's dignity is worth more than the 90K you speak of that practically no CS person makes anymore...even the ones who took the jobs in india.
znineSep 13, 2010
Everyone I know that graduated with me with CS (last year) started around there, that's still the national average starting pay. One with a masters (2 more years of school) went straight to Apple with just under 6 figures take home pay. It's kind of silly to say that you have to give up your dignity at all CS jobs. I'm sure there are plenty of rewarding jobs out there. Besides, one of the best way to make connections in the industry is to work there.
You seem to have a really pessimistic view of the CS job market. The dot com boom is ancient history but the reality is that if you have in-demand skills, you will get jobs. If you don't specialize or move into business, however, you won't advance past a senior developer or something similar. In that sense there is a plateau with CS.
I actually have my own business as well but it's related to my degree.
Closed AccountSep 11, 2010
I assure you, my "overrated" computer science degree (granted, it's a Master's) pays better than you selling anime figures online. Of course, I worked my tail off, did lots of internships / co-ops, and engage in lifelong learning. I also had a few lucky breaks (is it luck if you put yourself in the position to succeed?) and got a great job.
I'm sorry your degree didn't work out as you expected. I think the misunderstanding is that a degree doesn't mean you're equipped for the working world anymore: smart people who work hard are equipped for the working world. A degree is like a good tool: doesn't do any good being operated by someone who doesn't know what to do with it.
princetrunksSep 11, 2010
I'm just not for taking orders from a boss. I'd rather be the one doing the interviewing. There's just a sense of lost dignity to have a boss who probably knows less than you tell you what to do, when to see your family and who can fire you at a moment's notice. The cycle then repeats itself with more school and/or propping up that slave tag we call a resume. Then again that mindset is why I'm probably better off owning my own business.
rantusSep 10, 2010
Welcome to the dumbing down of America. College isn't worth it huh? My parents used to tell me stories about how really smart people back in the day couldn't go to college because they didn't have the money and couldn't get loans or scholarships. Microsoft? Started in a college dorm room. Google? Started in a college dorm room. What a crock of s**t this is. There are a hell of a lot of reasons to go to college other than getting an easy, high paying job out of it. College is where ideas are created and research is done. College is also an environment that fosters creativity and problem solving outside of the pressures of expected ROI. Whether or not you want to believe it, this happen to be a good thing.
But screw college because some rich assh**es who only care about money say so.
Closed AccountSep 10, 2010
All dropouts though, and almost all of the beginning ideas at Microsoft and Apple were stolen or swindled in some manner.
robweberSep 10, 2010
the point isn't that they dropped out, but that they went. The founders of google for example were researching for their doctorates when they came up with their web crawler. I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that they probably wouldn't have done that if they hadn't had the undergrad education to begin with.
I also have yet to see anyone bring up that although you can make a good living without a degree, not having one either a) keeps you at a certain level within you company or b) keeps you out of certain fields altogether. I hear people all the time complaining that they couldn't get a job or promotion because they couldn't meet the educational requirements.
darkshroudSep 10, 2010
They dropped out to start their companies because they were making good money.
The problem with college now is all the bull s**t courses/degrees and putting politics in general in the class rooms.
rantusSep 11, 2010
Really? What school did you go to?
harrisbradleySep 10, 2010
"There are a hell of a lot of reasons to go to college other than getting an easy, high paying job out of it."
I can't think of a more mis-leading factually incorrect statement.
I disagree completely. If you can get a scholar ship to college, or want to go into an industry that requires you attend a college then it is *probably* a worthy investment.
If not, then I think it it way over-priced and causes you to start your career at least 4 years later than you could have. I dropped out of junior college and started working when I was 19. This wasn't by design, it was because my wife got pregnant. I started out getting paid 33k. About 5 promotions later I make six figures, and I'm realizing that if I staying in college I would have been doomed because I would have joined the work force after the bubble burst, and wouldn't have found the awesome opportunity that I did. Also, I hold a position that is traditionally held by college graduates, but nowadays there are so many college educated people unemployed, or not in a career that has anything to do with their studies. This is the norm, not the exception, and one could argue that they all made a mistake by going to college. That's what I say.
The ideal situation is, you start working at 18 years old, and your company pays for you continued education that you do at night. If not, you pay for it yourself, and most likely you won't finish because you'll quickly realize what a horrible investment it is.Comment is buried, click here to see the rest.
chrismusafSep 10, 2010
Did you drop out of junior college before you took English 101?
rantusSep 11, 2010
And you made my point for me. All you care about is money and your career. My point is that a career isn't the end-all be-all when it comes to college. And the truth is that I have a good job that I may have been able to get without a degree but the reason my boss hired me is because I had one. The only thing that's wrong with college are the false expectations and perspectives that people have about it. it's what you make it, and if you screw off the whole time you're there then yeah, you probably shouldn't have gone in the first place. Actually, yeah, don't go because all you do is create a distraction for the other students who actually know what it's worth.
princetrunksSep 10, 2010
College is great because of what you said. They can be great centers of discovery and invention and a wealth of knowledge. The issue though is that college for the past couple of decades has been commercialized by parents, news, society and the colleges themselves as some sort of "good job" / "good money" factory. The cycle begins with parents that want their kids to be "successful"; usually because they themselves failed in life and want to gain back credit through their children or at best, they have that so-called "good job" where they get paid well to lick a boss's rear at a big company and want their kids to follow suit since that's "the way to go."
Instead of catering to the students' dreams, goals and honest academic wants; most are placed in a subject they feel and/or their parents feel is worth more money and somehow worth the huge price tag that any college has. So basically the landscape of the college life is a bunch of students who are doing a major they don't like so that at the very best, after having a mortgage without a home..they can be "successful" by being pigeonholed into one of the few very large companies that will somehow keep them for life and take good care of them; the overplayed and overrated 9-5 lifestyle that in reality is just having a boss dictate when and were you have to be and no matter how thick the rug is underneath you...it can be pulled right out. People then wonder why our damn economy was so fragile...it's propped up by a few big companies, mindless sheep of employees and not enough stable small businesses.
I went to Suffolk Community College and then to Suny Stonybrook here on Long Island, was in honors, jumped through all the hoops they said you needed to do. I watched as most of my classmates just were there because they were told to and 5 years later..they have the same jobs as kids in highschool. My Computer Science degree was worth only the paper it was written on as the so called "good jobs" were outsourced to India. I make more money now selling Japanese anime figures in my own business than what my degree brought me; and unlike the "good jobs" I don't have a boss tell me when and were I have to be; just good old work ethic. This is why when stories like Bill Gates and others are told, it makes college look rather pointless. It's because we are using college wrong, like using the handle of a hammer to smash in a nail. I'm curious about String Theory and the edges of science, space and physics and college is a great place to learn about that, do experiments and maybe even add upon that field...but for what college is being used for now....just get an ok job, use that money to run your own business and life (the internet makes that so damn easy now) and then..go to college to learn about stuff you like and want to know about...but like anything else it will cost money to do that.
(I know...long comment...need to add /coolstorybro)
Closed AccountSep 11, 2010
Your logic is flawed if only because a small, small, SMALL minority of college attendees do it for self-improvement or realization. The vast majority are there to land a dream job.
The college system as it is today is PART of the dumbing down of America.
College used to be an assembly of scholars discussing important matters. Now it's students listening to the rantings of a questionable professor who has the only goal of making money. While they, themselves, are only there to graduate and make "big money".
It's entirely different than what you described.
batcommanderSep 11, 2010
Rantus, as sensatinalized as this article title is, you're almost as bad coming from the other angle. Not as bad of course, but not a whole lot better either.
"But screw college because some rich assh**es who only care about money say so."
You're right, but college costs have been ballooning for a while now, and although we hate to admit it, eventually a line will be crossed where it's just not worth it. Really it sounds like the people who run the colleges are the rich assh**es who only care about money, although I could be wrong.
rbndgiSep 12, 2010
my aim in life is to become a rich assh**e, i dont care how i get there as long as i do.
0ldb0ySep 10, 2010
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ymsHLkB8u3s
pyroclastic_vikingSep 10, 2010
I personally think that a degree says absolutely nothing about your intelligence; however, since everyone is getting one these days, if you don't have one, businesses just don't take you seriously.Comment is buried, click here to see the rest.
ieatskunkSep 10, 2010
Depends on the degree and where it is from. The computer science program the university i went to had required courses here and there that were designed to be very difficult in order to weed out the slackers. I knew many people who dropped out of the compsci program for the much easier business management program. Guess which degree is worth more.....
gilbesSep 10, 2010
The truth is, college is a scam.
Most job opportunities at successful companies are internal promotions. Your college degree cannot get you access to that. The kid who spent 4-6 years working hard to move ahead in the company is the one who has that access. And the kicker is he got paid for those 4-6 years instead of paying large sums of money to not have the opportunity.
When it comes to hiring for publicly posted positions, that kid without the college degree who has at least some real world experience in the area has a huge advantage over someone with a piece of paper that certifies that they were able to find a way to pass a series of tests.Comment is buried, click here to see the rest.
newcodaSep 10, 2010
Hmm, no.
Yes, most job opportunities are internal promotions and yes time spent on the job/in the company is very important. Also yea, the person that was working instead of going to school was getting paid.
However, there are glass ceilings for people that do not have degrees (exceptions prove the rule). I have seen it often in a variatey of industries where people are hitting promotion stalls or more common, reduced income because of low/no formal education.
Yes, in that publicly posted job the person applying that has experience does bring a valuable experience to the table and depending on the specific work may be worth more than an inexperienced person with a degree. However, an experienced worker that also has a degree is far more desirable. A degree does not preclude on the job experience.
A college degree is not just a series of tests that someone "found a way to pass". It is more a testament to commitment and determination. A light internet search shows that as of 2007 only around 30% of Americans have degrees. There is a lot to be said about people that go through and actually finish what is asked of them, more so if they do it well and not just the minimum.
No, a degree is not a promise - its an opportunity. It shows employers you are a serious person with a history of working hard and getting what was asked of you done on top of any pertinent learning you have gained. Many people lead happy successful lives without degrees. This does not mean college is a scam, it just means people that say that feel a need to put themselves on some abstract equal ground against others. In the end, more education is better than less, even if that education does not turn into more dollars.
gilbesSep 10, 2010
"However, there are glass ceilings for people that do not have degrees (exceptions prove the rule)."
Assuming your defense of college means you are college educated, I would reasonably assume you would use the " exceptions prove the rule" correctly.
So you contend that because some people without college degrees have unlimited potential at an organization, there is a rule that people without college degrees have limited potential at said organization.
That just doesn't follow.
"However, an experienced worker that also has a degree is far more desirable. A degree does not preclude on the job experience."
And by your own admission it doesn't provide the greatest benefit. Again, your conclusion doesn't follow.
" It is more a testament to commitment and determination"
Yes, the commitment and determination to finish college. It does not demonstrate and commitment, determination or any tangible ability to perform the duties of a given position.
" A light internet search shows that as of 2007 only around 30% of Americans have degrees."
Try a light Internet search on how many people have professions in their degree of choice. Then contemplate why that is so low.
" It shows employers you are a serious person with a history of working hard and getting what was asked of you done"
And experience demonstrates a history of working hard, ability and competency in a given field.
" In the end, more education is better than less "
And fortunately there are other sources of education then a college.Comment is buried, click here to see the rest.
newcodaSep 10, 2010
I am really unsure where all this college hostility is coming from. I more or less agreed with you - that work experience is important. I just don't agree with you that college is useless/invaluable or however you frame it.
Yes, there are other places to gain an education outside of college and yea not everyone that graduates holds a job in the specific field they earned their degree. That is sort of the point of college, it isn't a vocational school. Engineering degrees tend to be specific to their future job, it appears close to high end vocational training with some classes outside their chosen field to round them out. The much hated Liberal Arts majors rarely do get jobs that use the name of their degree (English or Philosophy or History). Again, this is the point - college is not there to give you a job, its to broaden your understanding of how the world works. Interact with various people on various levels in addition to preparing you for a professional work environment.
I am not saying you need a degree to be successful I am saying having a degree does not equate to a waste of time or useless. Yea, some people can waste the opportunity that college represents, but people can waste just about opportunity so that is hardly a fair judgement to level against degrees.
Closed AccountSep 10, 2010
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thequadlaserSep 10, 2010
you bring up an interesting point.
Closed AccountSep 10, 2010
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canyoucountSep 10, 2010
Bad ASCII art also kinda sucks.
socialstacySep 10, 2010
College is expensive but I believe its worth it. Many higher positions require a college degree or even a masters degree. The more education you have the better...Comment is buried, click here to see the rest.
ieatskunkSep 10, 2010
You cannot say college is a bad investment as a whole. Just like property or stocks there are good investments and bad investments. With college you need to major in a field where your degree will be worth something. Bachelor degrees in psychology or sociology, for example, are useless on their own. You must pursue a doctorate level degree in those fields to be worth something. But a bachelor degree in comp sci or an engineering field are worth a lot on their own.
The bottom line: The harder it is to earn the degree the fewer the people earning it and thus the more valuable it is.
dayznfuzSep 10, 2010
Definitely agree with this. Racking up $150k in student loans to pursue a career in dance or film (saw these people on Suze Orman once) is ludicrous. You'll never make enough money to make the cost worthwhile.
Racking up $150k to go to law or medical school? That's a different story.
imjpSep 10, 2010
Good post dayznfuz.
Some careers just need the higher education but the people who rack up the insane amounts of debt in order to work in a cubicle like a drone for 30 years at a 9-5 job are the ones they're talking about mostly in the post.
ccpandaSep 10, 2010
I work primarily in post-production for film and TV. So naturally I have a lot of friends that have expensive degrees in film . Most of these guys are grips, gaffers or electric, but they make a decent income.
I don't know about prospects in dance though.
swift2Sep 10, 2010
A college degree is the best inoculation against poverty we have. That's the truth. Not that everybody can do it, though. Some people have an intelligence that doesn't work in academic terms.
soonerdmSep 10, 2010
Some people miss the entire point of college. Banging Soroity girls.
imjpSep 10, 2010
this man speaks the truth! rofl
Closed AccountSep 10, 2010
Not this s**t AGAIN! You can't go simply by money. Sure, you might be able to get A job without college and in the long run those 4 years of extra exerience might get you enogh raises that your salary after college does not make up for the cost. But...there are many careers that you CAN'T get a job without college. So, if one of those careers is what you want to do, it is worth it. I'drahter come out slightly behind financially over the long term working in a career that I enjoy.
skidooerSep 10, 2010
It boils down to: There is nothing wrong with going to school to fulfill the desire to learn about a topic you are passionate about. It is money well spent because it is something that you enjoy. There is, however, something seriously wrong with the idea of going to school because you want to make more money. In that case it really is a poor investment.
Closed AccountSep 10, 2010
But even that is not necessarily true. There are many career paths that absolutely DO make it a good financial investment to go to college. Because you are not getting a job in those careers without one. Or at the very least, you are not going to advance nearly as much in those 4 years where you are working while a college student is learning. It also doesn't take into account that a smart student makes contacts that could very well help him financially during his career.
I also hate these articles because they always take the beest case scenario to suit their side of the argument. Taking the most expensive colleges, and assuming that a student earns nothing during those 4 years. It is like those tree hugger articles that talk about the evils of bottled water and imply that every bottled water drinker spends $5 a day on bottled water. And they come up with this number by assuming that they are going to a vending machine five times throughout hte day and paying $1 a bottle. When the reality is, most people buy cases where each bottle is 20 cents or less.
I came out of colege just a few thousand dollars in debt. and actually paid that off with money I earned going to grad school. I went to a state school and worked part time the entire time. It was wrth it to me.
mredofcourseSep 10, 2010
College sex is the best sex you'll ever have.
michaelman77Sep 10, 2010
This guy seems to have a poor perspective on college due to the fact that he's an Ivy Leaguer. Only a sliver of Americans pay 200k for college (other Ivy Leaguers). Personally, I go to a junior college and with a few scholarships all I have to pay for is books. That's w/o govt grants like many others get. After that I'll commute to the nearest CSU and get my Bachelors degree with a grand total of around 12k to repay. Even most people that live on campus at a university for all 4 years won't have quarter of the debt that guy had.
angelbunnySep 10, 2010
I think going to a decent junior college is good but a full on university isn't in the beginning. My sister got a 4.0gpa in highschool so she wanted to go to a uni strait away. I told her to go to a 2 year first and then transfer like I did so you do not have any debt, but she didn't listen. I doubt she regrets her decision, but I hate seeing her bills in the mail.
When I went to community college (highest rated in the country btw) it had better classes than almost all 4 year universities, guaranteed transfer programs to schools like berkeley, and because it is state regulated the prices are nice. A grant would basically pay for me to go to college.
dhammettSep 10, 2010
You go to a major university so that your degree will mean something to more people (people that aren't from your area). What junior college did you go to? Whatever name it has I wouldn't know if it was even a real college or not without a lot of investigation. Go to a major university though and people all across the country will immediately recognize that you know your stuff, because they will have heard of your college. Even better is when you go to a college with a good BCS level football program, then people will really have heard of your college. Instant recognition is worth something. Some people are willing to pay for it.Comment is buried, click here to see the rest.
lymanterrellSep 10, 2010
The point is that you can go to a Community College and get all the basics (which are going to be exactly the same) and then go a University and get the name recognition later and for half the cost (because you spend half the time).
angelbunnySep 10, 2010
It doesn't work that way. You don't stay in one school the entire time. You go to a jc for the first 2 years, then a 4 year like Berkeley for the next 2 years, then another 2 or so years at like MIT. So, you only spent a year or two at a good school. your résumé still shows that school with the piece of paper.
vigrocoSep 10, 2010
Only if you get a liberal arts degree
markus6986Sep 10, 2010
Pht, I got a free ride to a smaller, Catholic school in Boston. Sure, it wasn't my first choice, but the price was right. Now I have a job in my field of study that I enjoy, go figure. Even if I was paying full price, the total bill would have been well under $200,000. Cornell, it was not.
var1ablesSep 10, 2010
In this article - rich people say that college wasn't worth it when they were already rich going in. Great article, all i learned is that if you are rich you don't need to go to college. Thanks Washington post for that remarkable revelation.
bobburn1Sep 10, 2010
Yes, let's ignore the fact that those with college degrees make vastly more on average than those without degrees. Let's ignore the fact that many professions have a degree as a required element of even ENTERING the profession (see Lawyers, doctors, nurses, etc).
Yes, it may be better for some people to skip college (philosophy, english, and other BS majors for example), but for the vast majority of people, college is definitely a plus.
dmcodySep 10, 2010
I would guess that for every college graduate working at Walmart, there are many dozens more school drop outs. Sure, it isn't easy starting out straight from school with no experience at any level especially during a recession. But I also believe that over the long term the more qualifications you have, the more opportunities you have and statistics bear this out. Sure, some uneducated people make it to the big time, just like some people who sing and play guitar become rock stars, but what are the chances? I believe that preparing for life means putting yourself in the best possible position for the most opportunities. But I also believe in trying to get the best education at a reasonable price and not overextending yourself in debt,
pir80099Sep 10, 2010
Pro tip: Don't go to a fancy ass school and get a degree in liberal arts or communications. Go somewhere that's inexpensive (a state school) and get a degree that can get you somewhere, like engineering.
danisthSep 10, 2010
The reason for getting an education shouldn't be simply to get a job and make money. Education doesn't teach you what to think, it helps you know how to think. A well educated population is going to be better for any country. Many of the horrible things that happen in other countries and in our own is due to ignorance.
crazedleperSep 10, 2010
Been sayin' it. Following the herd *always* leads to one slaughterhouse or another.
mastersaiyanSep 10, 2010
yes always was
phuture84Sep 10, 2010
After listing classic examples of college dropouts:
"Perhaps these are unique individuals in whom a driving entrepreneurial spirit outstripped the plodding pace of book learning.
Or perhaps they point to a new model."
Really? Being Steve Jobs and Bill Gates is possibly the new model? What possible business are you going to start right out of high school? Maybe a handful of kids from each school have the ability to start a webdesign company or some other service based business. But you can't become a doctor, lawyer, scientist, engineer, etc... without going to school. These articles drive me nuts. Yes, college is expensive, yes there are degrees that are not particularly employable. However to only list a half dozen of the richest people in the world and not the millions of people that don't go to college and end up working minimum wage jobs the rest of their lives is dishonest. Did someone get lucky? Did someone else have a really brilliant idea? Great, for each of those guys there are probably 100,000 that skipped on college and now aren't doing anything with their lives.
dangquesadillaSep 10, 2010
The sheer thought of anyone paying 40K per year for schooling (the rate of private colleges in my area) at the age of 18 or 19 is ludicrous. People are still figuring out who they are and what they want, and still learning what money management and adulthood really means. To saddle them with six figure debt right at the age of 22 before they've figured out themselves or learned about life is cruel and insane. College in my opinion is wonderful, it's the prices I have a problem with. They weren't always this high. What the hell happened.
danogburnSep 10, 2010
"What the hell happened."
Nearly unlimited federal financial aid.
(which has allowed me to go to a state school with no debt but still....)
Closed AccountSep 10, 2010
HS Grad. 8 yrs in the military in logistics, learned computing on my own, now director of engineering team making 6 figures. Hard work it seems, at least in this case, has paid off. I'm where I'm at not because a family member or friend elevated me, or i trampled over others to get here, i have simply worked hard. That's it.
skeeordyeSep 10, 2010
I went to college, I met great friends, I learned about how the country really works, I shared and developed ideas with an incredible community, and had life experiences that never would have come up otherwise. I am paying $300 a month for 10 years to clear my loans. It is hardly unmanageable, and a small price to pay for what I got out of it. I would do it all over again if i could.
danogburnSep 10, 2010
I dont regret a single cent or second I've spent in college. I went to learn computer science not to increase my employment chances.
If all you want are job skills, then go to a trade school/community college.
additional protip: go to a public school over a private one.
nidy1Sep 11, 2010
"additional protip: go to a public school over a private one."
Dugg just for this. I pay ~$2500 a semester and work with/learn from researchers in the top of their field at a public university. It is the best deal out there.
popbotSep 10, 2010
This lifehacker article coincides nicely I think: http://lifehacker.com/5634357/dangerous-ideas-getting-started-is-overrated. At least, the first part about survivor bias does.
krismanxSep 11, 2010
Sometimes you wonder... But then you get that first payday as a reservoir engineer and it somehow seems worth it =O
djphatjiveSep 11, 2010
Most people I know with Degrees don't even use it.
topher06Sep 11, 2010
< 1% of the population can achieve what Bill gates or other rich successful entrepreneurs have achieved without a college education, and most of them achieved that through sheer luck or excellent timing. These people don't drop out of school because they think they can do better, but because some opportunity dropped in their laps. You think Bill Gates would have achieved s**t if DOS wasn't handed to him at a time where there was not unifying OS in existence?
Some people are claiming a $20/hr job is successful, but my $50/hr job says otherwise. Yes, school was expensive, but I paid that off years ago and still reaping the rewards. You can drop out of school and settle, and spend the rest of your life regretting it.
Hey if you have an idea and think you can make a go at it, go for it. Nothing says you need a piece of paper before you can start having good ideas. But don't avoid school thinking that you are going to end up a billionaire through "sheer determination".
On the other hand there is nothing wrong from getting a little real life experience first, earning enough money to afford school, and then going back with a plan. I think far too many young kids go to college and waste a butt load of money not knowing what the f*ck to do (i.e. an arts degree) and then come out of school with a chip on their shoulder wondering where the $100k/yr jobs are all at. If some of their doe-eyed idealism gets wiped out from a few years in the real world then perhaps they might come to appreciate higher education.
I think it really comes down to not going to Harvard for a Art History degree when the same degree at a local community college is going to have you lining up collecting the same food stamps, just with far less debt.
therernospoonsSep 11, 2010
Just wondering, what is this job that earns $50/hr? Congrats!