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kanockAug 17, 2010
I'm very grateful for my UK student loan. I don't know where else I'd be able to get a £16,500 loan for ~3% interest a year. I invested £3k of it which is now worth £5k, spent another £5.5k on a Masters degree and spent the rest on living costs. Absolutely worth it because I now have the job of my dreams.
What's the real problem? Doing degrees that simply aren't worth the cost. It's nothing to do with the student loans. Although, you can't really put a price on getting a 'good' (fun) job, so it might be worth it to you even if the numbers don't add up.
ripple123Aug 17, 2010
well actully, the real problem is degrees whos cost has been inflated way beyond what it actully costs to deliver that degree, because federal student loans are guranteed, and cannot be bankrupted on.
darkmatter911Aug 17, 2010
I can't argue with the gross inflation on the cost of a degree but I am 100% behind the fact that you can not have them cleared out by declaring bankruptcy.
Closed AccountAug 17, 2010
Don't forget also that you don't have to pay back unless you're earning over, I think, £15k/year, and if you don't ever get that far (or somehow use methods to conceal your wealth) then the whole loan is written off after a number of years.
Subsidised education + the Student Loans Company ftw. Although a full grant would have been nice.Comment is buried, click here to see the rest.
falconearAug 17, 2010
This. If you're borrowing money, make sure the degree is worth the money. There's nothing really wrong with majoring in History, but realize you're going to have to go all the way through grad school to make it pay off.
clippclopAug 17, 2010
The interest you pay on student loans is also tax free (in Canada anyway). Plus it's usually such a low rate that you barely get any interest anyway, especially if you over pay it.
Student loans are the best loan you'll ever get. This article is retarded.
mnorteiAug 17, 2010
$40k/year?!?!
s**t, that's the cost of my ENTIRE program
Closed AccountAug 17, 2010
And that's why you're intelligent.
I still lol when I think back to my high school counselor that was still paying off his student loan debt after 15 years of working.
It did help us though, he made sure we didn't go to schools outside of our means.
nmanguyAug 17, 2010
I remember my counselor saying "You're intelligent, you can do well, why are you going to a community college?", and my reply of "That's why I'm going".
sparky9292Aug 18, 2010
"I still lol when I think back to my high school counselor that was still paying off his student loan debt after 15 years of working."
Hmm, most public sector jobs esp in education have loan forgiveness programs. I've seen $100,000 in student loans forgiven if the person takes a high school teaching job.
Closed AccountAug 18, 2010
Sparky, from what I see based on a quick Google search, that's only reliable in low income schools where you teach at that school for five consecutive years and it's capped at $17,500.
I'm sure in some states, if I looked harder, there are more. However, most of the state ones I've found mimic the federal.
When you look at the income difference though, working in a non-low income district -- the pay you receive (though small) is boosted enough to usually far out weigh the 17,500 in five years. I figure this based on looking at Florida's and Minnesota's average teacher salary based on district and looking at qualifying low income school districts.
If the job pays $3,500 more starting and on its tiers, it's equal to the loan forgiveness anyways.
arschgaudiAug 17, 2010
I paid off a $120 month loan for 10 years. Wasn't that difficult when your pulling in seven grand a month.
Closed AccountAug 17, 2010
And you're retarded for paying 120 a month for 10 years when you made that much. From my $15k student loan after I graduated, I have $5,000 left to pay off, seeing as that interest rate is higher than any savings accounts, i'll be paying more in interest than i will earn on my interest bearing accounts for the same amount.
Closed AccountAug 17, 2010
I call shenanigans, you can't even use "you're" properly
arschgaudiAug 17, 2010
When the interest rate is 3% and you're getting 8% on a savings account it made perfect sense. My choice was also to have a higher degree of liquidity and money set aside for rainy days. I also chose to pay cash for my new vehicles and put more free money against the mortgage.........18 years to pay off a 30 year loan.
But I'm retarded because it didn't fit your sense of right. And you missed a punctuation Kinerry. Comment is buried, click here to see the rest.
turtlebirdAug 17, 2010
8% on a savings account? Well, thats 100% BS.
There is nothing in this world that pays 8% that is 100% risk-free (like savings accounts are).
arschgaudiAug 17, 2010
Did I say current rate? Nope. Back in the 90s interest rates on deposits were much higher. I was affiliated with a nice little credit union that returned almost all it's earnings in the form of dividends. Coupled with a tier system, I was earning 500-600 monthly in dividends on my savings.
Quit being a bunch of myopic f**ks.Comment is buried, click here to see the rest.
Closed AccountAug 18, 2010
I "missed a punctuation"...is that even English?
jroxzAug 17, 2010
University of Puerto Rico = Full Ride + ALL Living Expenses < $30,000.
Fully US Accredited Institution
frankfutterAug 17, 2010
Also the university that lost the Pell Grant for being foolish.
jroxzAug 17, 2010
I believe the foolishness you refer to may be the same reason the tuition increases have been so small.
frankfutterAug 17, 2010
You're absolutely right. And fighting for all of $5/credit increase for a university/government that is brutally in debt (and frankly, the corruption in the upper echelons is part of the reason) is foolish. While I agree that the janitors and administrative staff who are lazy as s**t making $30k is absurd when you have the people with degrees making less. But no inflation changes in years and low taxes lead to unsustainability.
I'm from Canada where the tuition is five or so thousand dollars a year which is affordable, and I really hope that UPR isn't bought out by the UMet or Inter systems, because that would price out the vast majority of people here, which is unfortunate. I sure hope they'll figure it out, and manage affordability and balance, but I've yet to see any signs of it.
protodonAug 17, 2010
Some people think Ivy League or just high tuition means better schooling but once the initials are added to the end of your name, your school pretty much means nothing. I don't know one employer that seriously looks at the school you went to.Comment is buried, click here to see the rest.
turtlebirdAug 17, 2010
You don't know one employer that seriously considers the school you went to?
Well, thats the dumbest thing I have ever heard...
You think Google would rather have the Valedictorian from Harvard or Middle Tennessee State? You think the Denver Broncos would rather have the leading rusher from Alabama or the leading rusher from Arkansas - Pine Bluff?
jroxzAug 17, 2010
@ TurtleBird
The Ivy League argument may help you in some circles but the truth is that it all will boil down to $$$. And if you are cost effective and prove your worth in skills, then your employer will want 2 of you for the price of an Ivy League grad.
turtlebirdAug 17, 2010
@JROXZ -
Reread my post. I was merely stating that employers CONSIDER where you went to school.
kazbaedenAug 17, 2010
The school you went to definitely plays a large role when you have little to no experience in your field. Some schools are just renowned for their research in a particular field, like CMU and MIT in robotics, and Princeton and U.C. Berkley in physics.
darkmatter911Aug 17, 2010
Not sure what field you are in but in most professional fields the schools you went to absolutely matters to employers. You are also forgetting things like the companies that recruit at an Ivy league or top rated school vs. some middle of the road school.
Finally the contacts you can make at an Ivy League school and how they can help you the rest of your life can be priceless.
pinkfish411Aug 17, 2010
Your school absolutely matters in some fields. I'm looking to get a tenure-track faculty job, and if I hadn't gone to the best schools I could at each step along my education, my chances of career success would be greatly diminished. Fair or not, those with the Ivy League or equivalent undergrad degrees have huge advantages over everyone else.
noblepaladinAug 17, 2010
For most people, Ivy League schools are actually cheap. At Harvard, I believe if your household income is less than 120k (figure keeps changing), you go for free. If your family makes less than 180k, you get substantially subsidized. If you are paying full price at an Ivy league school (or some of the top non-Ivy's like MIT), then you are lucky that you are born into a reasonably wealthy family.
richmomzAug 17, 2010
I disagree about having an Ivy League degree as that *does* open a lot of doors for you, especially if it's Harvard or Yale. But with regards to every other school, yes, your potential employers probably don't give a s**t whether you paid $5K/yr or $50K for tuition.
elranzerAug 17, 2010
Same here. Masters degree (6 years) for about $45,000. That's including living expenses, which means it would have been even less if I was smart and commuted from home.
I went to a state school in a city I was already living it. I don't see the point of expensive private schools at the Bachelors degree level.
richmomzAug 17, 2010
Unless it's a well-known school for your chosen area, paying extra to go private or out-of-state is generally not smart.
elranzerAug 18, 2010
I can't speak for other states, but the State University of NY (SUNY) is well-regarded here. There's really no point to go to any of the private schools, unless it's a technical instutute like RPI or RIT (but even then, SUNY has the SUNY-IT technical institute in Utica).
But going to a private Liberal Arts college? No point, when SUNY Albany and SUNY Buffalo only cost about $2000 a semester.
richmomzAug 17, 2010
Some people are smarter than others when it comes to financing their higher education. Example: you could study a worthwhile major at a good state school that's likely to get you a job for less than $5K/yr in tuition. Or you can pay $30K/yr to attend a s**tty private school and major in philosophy. Guess which one is going to result in future financial problems?
Protip: don't listen to assh**e school recruiters that tell you how all their graduates get great jobs. They're basically nothing more than glorified used car salesmen. Use common sense when making decisions about your academic future.
theonekenAug 18, 2010
Of course those state schools are all heavily subsidized by the taxpayers. That shouldn't affect your personal decisions, of course, but it's something to keep in mind when condemning Duke et al.
elranzerAug 18, 2010
Well that just shows where education lies in the priority of the state government. I know that in NY, the SUNY system is well-funded from taxes, but it's also heavily subsidized by the NY Lottery as well as private grants, corporate projects and alumni gifts. IBM and Intel have invested heavily in SUNY Albany alone. The system is set up pretty well.
It's probably why SUNY is one of the country's better state college systems.
Closed AccountAug 17, 2010
I received a letter from the government threatening legal action against me if I don't start paying it back. What are they gonna throw me in jail for trying to get an education? The system is f**ked up.Comment is buried, click here to see the rest.
Closed AccountAug 17, 2010
No, they will just take it out of your taxes.
hipmanAug 17, 2010
You have to pay taxes anyway...are they going to hike them?.
arschgaudiAug 17, 2010
No, they simply withhold any refund he's getting.
clippclopAug 17, 2010
I'm calling bulls**t anyway. The general student loan program allows for you to not pay back your loans, interest free, as long as you are going back to school full time within the next 6 months to a year.
Even when you graduate, you have a 6 month grace period of non-payment, and can apply for an extended period if you are having troubles getting a job.
Considering the way he said "trying to get an education", that would mean he is still in school. Since he is still in school, his loan is just sitting there and doesn't require repayment. He's most likely just another government hater trying to make even more hate on a good government program (except that they need to give more money with living expenses raising to fast)
This is common for government student loans (which he has). Bank student loans run a little differently from my understanding.
sumtallguy1Aug 17, 2010
No, sounds like they're going to throw you in jail for not paying back money you borrowed from them.
edstateAug 17, 2010
You should pay it back. Don't be a f**king dick.
You entered into an agreement. Sure... college is WAY too expensive. But you had the choice of NOT going. But now you have, you borrowed the money, PAY IF f**kING BACK.
If you don't, your credit will be ruined and/or you will go to jail. Which is exactly what SHOULD happen.
Welcome to "Life", young one!
falconearAug 17, 2010
Don't be an assh**e. He SHOULD pay his loans back, but he's not going to jail. Knock it off with the scare tactics. There are several other options, as I outlined before.
edstateAug 17, 2010
If the law says he should go to jail, then to jail he goes.
With debts... usually not. But they used to have "debtors prisons".
And yes. So glad you're outlining the "options" for society. What a treat we must be in for.Comment is buried, click here to see the rest.
kevinisleetAug 18, 2010
ya i agree, if you are smart enough to get accepted into an expensive college, then that means you were smart enough to do some research before you made the commitment
kornbred79Aug 17, 2010
The system isn't f**ked up, you f**ked up.
You made a commitment and you are failing to honor that commitment. If you make minimum pays (which can be adjusted to suit your financial situation), they will be threatening legal action.
arschgaudiAug 17, 2010
I've got (or had) a file cabinet full of student loan correspondence. During the original payback period the bank had f**ked up the account and improperly booked several payments. For ten years I was supposedly behind 6 payments despite having canceled checks for every payment. Every month I'd get a letter from them and the government, which I file away. After three years of failed attempts I gave up trying to correct the situation. At one point they had suggested I send in 6 months of payments to get everything squared up and then they would research the problem.
falconearAug 17, 2010
double11: Here's the real scoop. If you don't pay back your loans it is likely the federal government will do...nothing. Now, if they do something, what they will do is seize your tax refunds until the money is paid back. However, what you can do to put this off is request a hardship forbearance. I got Direct Loans off my back for three years while I was taking a break from school by saying I couldn't afford to make payments.
You're not going to go to jail. We don't have debtors prison. You might just have to say byebye to your tax refunds for the rest of your life. OR...double down, and go back to school! Your payments will go back on hold until 6 months after you're out of school.
autokadAug 17, 2010
i believe you guys all missed a point that i 'believe' is true. They can garner his wages, IE take the money out of his checks before he even gets paid. So the only way to avoid paying them at such point, would be to totally not work at all. your screwed double11, either start paying them back or leave the country
ieatskunkAug 17, 2010
They can take it out of your paycheck or even directly out of your own checking account with a court order.
falconearAug 17, 2010
They CAN garner his wages, but they won't. They'll go after his tax refunds for the rest of his life, and eventually write the rest of it off. Like I told him, the whole thing can be settled by a hardship forbearance request. Then all he has to do is pay the interest to keep it from adding. He'll have to request a new one...every six months I believe it is.
timthetaxmanAug 17, 2010
Students are graduating with mortgage sized student debt and that is a problem, but dollar for dollar I’d much rather have large student debt than credit card debt.
First, the interest rates are usually a lot lower. Second, unlike credit cards, it is tax deductable (even if you don’t itemize).
The trick to managing the debt is making sure you pick the right major that will pay off. You don’t want to graduate with a crappy major, 70k in debt, and can only find work at Starbucks.
Closed AccountAug 17, 2010
You hit the nail on the head. Good advice.
edstateAug 17, 2010
You are so right about not HAVING to go to college. My career? ...I really didn't have to go. I enjoyed the s**t out of college (aaah... so much enjoyment!), but although I learned a lot (liberal arts), I could've easily done the same job without college. In fact, I would probably be AHEAD right now had I become an intern straight out of high school.
The universal insistence on College is short sighted, and almost "Politically Correct". It's not ALWAYS the best answer. And not just for "stupid kids".
PS, the interest on Student Loans is only tax deductible if you make UNDER 60K a year (not a lot in the big cities).
timthetaxmanAug 17, 2010
As of 2009’s returns, it is reduced after you hit 60k but not eliminated until you hit 75k. If you are married, the amounts are 120k for reduction and 150k for elimination of the benefit.
1packerAug 17, 2010
Of course you could have done the same job without the degree, it's liberal arts. Any degree where you can skip class and get hammered every night is not one worth what you are paying.
edstateAug 17, 2010
@1packer
Agree x2.
And I certainly was plastered much of my FIVE years in college :P
/graduated in '95, paid off my loans in full almost 10 years ago.
honukaiAug 18, 2010
You might be able to do the job, but would you have gotten it?
charlotte_webAug 17, 2010
Problem is, you can declare bankruptcy to get out of credit card debt and start fresh if you screwed up while you were young.
Student loan debt does not go away. The government does not reduce the principal, unless you can prove to them that you are living on the street and incapable of earning enough to make the payments.
timthetaxmanAug 17, 2010
That is the trade off for getting a low interest rate. If student loan debt were as easy to discharge as credit card debt, the rates would be similar.
clippclopAug 17, 2010
You don't simply "get out" by declaring bankruptcy. When you declare (which is quite the process by the way), you have to work out a principle reduction and payment plan with your creditors. It doesn't simply disappear.
There is a good reason it's different for government student loans. Creditors have insurance covering bankruptcy. With student loans, the payment are so low, can be extended, stopped (for a period), etc, etc etc. It is a very very lenient repayment program.Comment is buried, click here to see the rest.
charlotte_webAug 17, 2010
Well, some debt you can simply walk away from. You will take a huge ding on your credit report, but the CC companies won't pursue smaller amounts in court because it's not worth the legal fight.
You declare bankruptcy when someone gets a judgment against you, which you can't ignore unless you're willing to go to jail. The bankruptcy clears out the judgments.
darkmatter911Aug 17, 2010
That is not a problem. That is a huge positive to the system. You should not be able to get out of you student loans simply by declaring bankruptcy.
Creditors can reposes your car, your house, etc. but it is a bit difficult to reposes knowledge and a degree.
honukaiAug 18, 2010
Actually for smaller debts a lot of creditors will repackage them and sell them to smaller collections agencies...who will peruse as far as is profitable. It's very hard to walk away from any debt.
kreneskypAug 17, 2010
only the first $2,500 of student loan debt is deductable. If you have a 100k in loans then you likely have mostly private loans which are 5-6% currently. The interest on that much capital will result in much more than $2,500 of interest per year.
timthetaxmanAug 17, 2010
Of course, there are income limits as well. It’s still better than credit card debt however.
If anyone wants more details, they are in IRS publication 970.
kreneskypAug 17, 2010
right, but that qualifier is never added when people talk about the deduction. just like you hear these things too:
- i don't have to pay anything till i graduate
- i can just refinance to a low rate
These things make a big difference and people just don't understand them, and hence don't understand the loans they are signing up for. I got bit by both of these things
- i didn't have to pay anything while in school, but my principal doubled in size from 4 years of interest accrual.
- i refinanced my federal loans and only pay 1% interest, but that was only 10% of my loans. The rest are variable and have been between 6 and 7%
timthetaxmanAug 17, 2010
. Point taken. There is a lot of "everything will be better after I graduate" mentality out there. Far too often, things are not better at all. College requires a good understanding of the trade-offs and intelligent, forward-looking decision making like any big endeavor.
whatthefuAug 17, 2010
That's what sucks, I think. College should be about learning as well as preparing you for a job.
cjtuckermanAug 17, 2010
I have to admit the author seems a bit biased. Graduate School is important and required for far more professions than just those listed. Being someone in an undergraduate program looking to go get my Ph.D. I can say that without it, I would not have a chance at getting a job in my intended profession.
College debt is a huge problem. That doesn't mean we should encourage students not to pursue an education.
Closed AccountAug 17, 2010
The author isn't discouraging education, he is just saying that young people need to be smarter about financing it.
charlotte_webAug 17, 2010
The problem is that the graduate programs in the top tier schools often require a full-time commitment; you can't have a job and take a few classes here and there, like you could during your undergrad. You are pretty much forced to take on the debt load if you want a degree from a top tier school.
clippclopAug 17, 2010
By working, paying rent, utilities, living AND saving at the same time.
f**k that s**t. Student loans are EASILY the way to go. There is no smarter way unless you want to live with your parents till you're 30 years old. That or your family is rich and can afford to pay for your school in its entirety.
kazbaedenAug 17, 2010
@Charlotte_Web
"The problem is that the graduate programs in the top tier schools often require a full-time commitment"
Which is why many pay you to be a Teaching or Research Assistant, and waive your tuition on top of it. I get 9 credits (3 courses essentially) a semester at my school, plus $2000 a month to live off of, and all I have to do is TA one course.
hewhopoopsAug 17, 2010
The author isn't trying to discourage anyone from not pursuing an education. The author simply suggests that we should pursue an education within our means.
craftyguyAug 17, 2010
Unfortunately you're telling this to a nation full of people who thought it was an excellent idea to purchase the $1,000,000 house when they could only afford the $150,000 town home..
While you're 100% correct, it seems like my fellow Americans will continue to try and spend well outside their means. Do I smell a financial crash coming in the tuition world?
eugenetabiscoAug 17, 2010
The author also acknowledges the importance of education for those with specific careers — i.e. medical, lawyer, etc. But you don't need to attain insurmountable debt for a degree in English. An economics or business degree is highly over-rated. Business is something you learn on the job. Somehow it's grown to this ridiculous stature of needed a Masters. The middle-management mentality is winning.
keithlolbermannAug 17, 2010
MBAs are only necessary because BA bachelor degrees are completely worthless. I'm so glad I'm an engineer.
kazbaedenAug 17, 2010
@KeithLOLbermann
As someone with a BS in business and a BS in physics, I've seen my fair share of scientists and engineers who don't know how to give a presentation or convey an idea worth a damn.
I had to take a scientific research methods course, which included a presentation component where you had to present your findings in a colloquium. Turns out I was the only one who got an A, because I was the only one who could effectively communicate my research. It's really laughable, but they all had your same attitude that there's nothing worthwhile to learn from business.
A big part of doing research is writing grant proposals, where you have to communicate why your project is worth while and why you need the money you're asking for. Turns out this is exactly what business school teaches you how to do, and where the sciences fail
keithlolbermannAug 17, 2010
You needed an entire BS in business to learn how to communicate effectively? Wow.
arschgaudiAug 17, 2010
The author has a stick up his ass about something.
Closed AccountAug 17, 2010
As someone who went through grad school, intending to enter a profession where it's required (academia), I agree wholeheartedly with the author of the article - don't waste your f**king money.
I'll go one step further and say that the higher education system is this country is pretty much a gigantic f**king scam, from the empty promises of a rewarding career where you get to do what you love, to the anal raping of postdocs under the guise of "building your reputation", to the making grad students feel like they are getting a "free" education while the professors build their names and reputations on the backs of people working 60 hour weeks and barely making enough money to survive.
If you're considering grad school, do a bit more research before you jump into it. To steal a line - I know more people who have gotten their lives ruined by getting a PhD than by drugs.
Closed AccountAug 17, 2010
I know people whose experience in higher education has caused them to turn to drugs.
clippclopAug 17, 2010
Wow, I would I would have witnessed people turning to drugs.
pinkfish411Aug 17, 2010
It sounds like someone gave you some really bad advice. The advice I always got was to get a PhD because you have a pathological, masochistic love for the subject, not because you want to be a professor. That's probably good advice.
Closed AccountAug 17, 2010
That "only get a PhD if you have a deep love for the subject" line is another pile of horses**t that gets thrown out there to romanticize things. It's part of what professors do to convince their grad students that it is worth putting in 60 hour days to write a paper that no one will ever care about, beyond the professor's tenure committee and grant proposal judges. No one would write grant proposals or spend six months collecting faulty data "for the love of it". Modern science is hard and often unpleasant work, and very very few of the people doing it love it so much that they would do it for free. Yet, they damn near DO do it for free, because the whole system is structured around convincing you that the work is more important than your own quality of life.
Only get a PhD if you don't value your future. You won't just waste the time with something that is only marginally likely to result in a meaningful career, you very well might also sacrifice huge amounts of time and money to do something that will actually HURT your chances at many careers, as hiring managers assume you are either too expensive and overqualified, or somehow a f**kup, for applying for jobs that are, on paper, below you.
darkmatter911Aug 17, 2010
There are very few areas where a PhD makes sense if you look at salary.
Closed AccountAug 17, 2010
Bingo! Master's might be worth it in some fields, but a PhD is almost always worthless, unless you are one of those lucky ones who gets a tenure track position at a major school without half a decade of postdocs.
Working in industry now with a PhD, I would have been a lot better off if I started in this job six years ago and skipped the PhD.
muzza001Aug 17, 2010
The Australian HECS system is pretty freaking awesome. You can just deffer payment, until you are earning above a threshold. Plus the government pretty much cuts the cost of each semester by more than half anyway. Comment is buried, click here to see the rest.
kornbred79Aug 17, 2010
You can do that with the US Federal Student Loan system as well.
The problem is most grads just ignore their commitment to repaying them thinking they will just go away.
noisymimeAug 18, 2010
You can't ignore it here. Once your income is above about $20k they start forcing payments as part of your income tax return.
ripple123Aug 17, 2010
dont forget the loans have no interest. they are only indexed to inflation.
spacem00seAug 17, 2010
Cheap In-State Tuition? That still exists?
wolfmannAug 17, 2010
yes, for those of us employed by the university :-)
edstateAug 17, 2010
No. It doesn't. It's like getting a slight discount on an already over-priced item.
protodonAug 17, 2010
LIke the Apple Discount. I get it.
ymegAug 17, 2010
Public universities
ieatskunkAug 17, 2010
It does in California. One of the few good things here.
edstateAug 17, 2010
Good luck with that. My niece is in college in CA, and they've CUT literally everything. It's *free.
And even that, not for much longer.
No matter what Keynesians try and tell you, NOTHING from the Government is free.
ieatskunkAug 17, 2010
Never said it was free, was just saying the in-state tuition for state university systems is still cheap. Ya, prices are going up, but the system is still heavily subsidized by the government.
kylebrothertAug 17, 2010
It's cheaper for other reasons, too. Cheaper to travel home and back. Cheaper for parents to visit, or bring you things instead of shipping them. Cheaper still if you can live at home or with a relative.
richmomzAug 17, 2010
I don't know about today but ten years ago my "in-state" undergraduate education in Chem. E. cost me less than $5K/yr in tuition.
plastiqmanbAug 17, 2010
Article speaks truth. My parents did not pay for my college, I paid it off all in full every simester with limited financial aid. My parents helped me out by starting me paying for my first car and then gave me the money back when I graduated high school (3,000). This covered the first simester at a community college, and I held 2 jobs. I am so thankful for what they taught me to not worry about these student loans I hear about. It can be done people, I was only getting paid 7 bucks at a local grocery shop and 9 bucks an hour for field tech work.
bmw7777Aug 17, 2010
Too bad they did not teach you how to spell "semester".
grantmoore3dAug 17, 2010
Did you live at home? Because most people I know with student loans are because they had to also pay for living expenses.
clippclopAug 17, 2010
Damn I wish I could have lived at home during school. That would have cut my schooling expenses by more than half...
plastiqmanbAug 17, 2010
correct, i did stay at home so with people that dorm its a totally different story.
eugenetabiscoAug 17, 2010
An expensive, top college is looked upon as "networking" now. Once again, education takes a backseat to the corporate mindset in the US. The college experience is quite important to many. It's a way to find your individuality and learn to fend for yourself. But it doesn't have to cost a ridiculous sum of money.
hipmanAug 17, 2010
Good luck finding a country where it doesn't.
gsm54321Aug 17, 2010
The whole networking thing really gets to me. They're basically admitting that what you learn isn't important, it's just all about having enough money and going to the "right school."
New era, same nepotism and "ol' boys" networks.
drifterAug 17, 2010
Why does that bother you? Life is all about networking and networking is a trait/skill and something you learn.
Stop showing your jealousy and ignorance and realize that if a student goes to a popular private school with 40k kids as compared to a smaller one with 3k kids, the student will most likely have a better network at the larger school and will have easier success.
eugenetabiscoAug 17, 2010
If you think life is all about networking then you should rethink priorities.
gsm54321Aug 17, 2010
Why does it annoy me, uhm, because I like the concept of meritocracy, and someone's worth being based on how hard they work.
And no, I'm not going to stop being jealous of people that have far more then me and who got it because of inequalities that are purposely built into the system to ensure it happens.
I don't really get what your trying to say. I mean, calling me ignorant for being annoyed at our current education system and then trying to run defense for it with a half assed analogy strikes me as the epitome of ignorance.
Closed AccountAug 17, 2010
@drifter "Why does that bother you? Life is all about networking" Any maybe it shouldn't be. Maybe it should be based on what you know and your skill sets for that particular job rather than who you happen to know. I'm sure there are people that could be very competent and successful in a job but because they don't have the right "connections", someone lesser qualified gets the job instead. So basically, if you're not good at being social, you're screwed (regardless of whether being social has anything to do with the task at hand). In my opinion, that is indeed a reason to be bothered by it, regardless of whether its just the way it is.
pinkfish411Aug 17, 2010
There's nothing you can possibly do to eliminate the networking aspect of career success. Most people are more likely to consider people they already have connections with than they are someone they only know from a piece of paper. Think about it: you've got two basically equal applicants for a job, one you only know from a resume, and another who went to your alma mater and whom you remember meeting at a business club meeting there, and which one are you most likely going to call in for an interview?
Don't be jealous, do something about it. Work hard, get a scholarship, and fork out the money you need to go to a "networking" school.Comment is buried, click here to see the rest.
gsm54321Aug 18, 2010
you guys are calling me jealous for saying a system based on crony-ism and nepotism is a a bad idea.
let's just put this in perspective.
eugenetabiscoAug 19, 2010
gsm54321 & Thud — I'm with you on this one. While making business connections is obviously important, competence and dependability in the workplace is what should be cherished. Too often in my experience I've witnessed middle-management bozos, who don't make as much as me but still make good money, keep their jobs simply for pretending to be busy and kissing ass. It's a waste of resources and creates more work for others.
I understand why someone wants to bring their kin into their business. But not at the cost of the business itself. If they do the work, fine. If not, get the spoiled f'n brats out of there.
Yes, being able to network is definitely a valuable skill, but it's just one of many for a job. It shouldn't be the only thing.
edstateAug 17, 2010
Of COURSE. When you subsidize something you get more of it. Period.
The fact that any fool can get a zillion dollars, guaranteed, to go to college... means that the price of college WILL GO UP.
Just like what happened with housing.
It's not rocket science. It's economics. And if more people understood even the basic principles of it, the World would be much, much better off.
timthetaxmanAug 17, 2010
Not only this, but the huge number of people graduating from college is diminishing the return on investment. Jobs that just a generation ago would have been happy with a high school diploma and some on the job training, now require a four-year degree and the resultant debt of getting that degree.
Don’t get me wrong, I’m not against education, but that doesn’t have to mean college. College, on many levels, in making life more difficult for my generation.
Closed AccountAug 17, 2010
When some universities (over here at least) are offering degrees in Golf Club Management, you know that something is up.
clippclopAug 17, 2010
Go to a tech school for 2 years
Make $50,000 out of school with little debt.
Make up to $100,000 within 5 year of being out of school
This is a win win. I wonder why more don't take up the tech school offering. I had already done 2 years at university before I was enlightened.
edstateAug 17, 2010
"Vocational" Ed is frowned upon these days. For some odd, stupid f**king reason.
dirtyfriesAug 17, 2010
True.
Students should be more encouraged to pursue their passion instead of just funneled into a college.
If I could do it over, I would probably consider something closer to auto mechanic, as deep down I really enjoy that sort of work. And it actually pays quite well too. When you're older, the glamor of a position is far less important.
chuckdontsurfAug 17, 2010
I agree. If students suddenly couldn't come up with the money to go to college, GASP--colleges would be forced to get their costs under control. As it is now, they have no incentive.
edstateAug 17, 2010
Not to mention that most colleges have HUGE endowments and investments (in other words, they're far from hurting, even in this economy). The tenure system puts the best professors into "research" and their aids end up teaching most classes. So, in many cases, you're not even getting what you THINK you paid for.
It's simple economics. The Colleges know they simply CAN charge an arm and a leg for tuition. So they do.
After all... how much is a young mind worth to YOU?
What? You want to cheap-out on OUR FUTURE !!!???
Etc.
wallyantiAug 17, 2010
Funny. I'm no economics wiz, but I did get through microeconomics in community college. I came away from it with the feeling that, when made the norm, health insurance companies, student loan companies and the like, would have exactly the effect on prices that you describe. That being that the prices would go up, thus making the companies that provide loans and insurance even more necessary; because now even fewer people can afford those services unaided.
The flip side is that perhaps---and it's a big perhaps--- but perhaps the hospitals, schools and such are allowed to grow at a faster pace than they otherwise would by virtue of the greater prices people are able to pay. A problem I see with insurance companies pertaining to this idea is that they could perhaps be more suited to a non-profit system like social security, which is very similar in purpose. Noone can doubt that the profit motive gets in the way when it comes time for these companies to pay up. The arguments seems to be more framed around whether or not it would work out better with the profit motive replaced with oversight from elected bodies. I'm in the public option camp myself.
edstateAug 17, 2010
The problem isn't "public" versus "private". Not even close.
Just like the mortgage debacle, it's "private" with "public endorsement and encouragement". And that is VERY VERY VERY DANGEROUS.
When they do it with our sugar industry... the ripple effects aren't enough to bring down the economy.
When they do it with our steel industry... the compounding effects aren't immediate enough to alert the public.
But when they do it with School Loans... Mortgages... Health Care... the biggies that affect almost everyone, everywhere, in a big and noticeable way... THAT's when the s**t starts dripping onto the fan.
(mental image)
Our Government with our Economy is like a small child with a chemistry set. And, for some idiotic reason, we're okay with that.
Closed AccountAug 17, 2010
Well now I make $3.50 an hour delivering pizza so I guess 5 years of college was worth it?
edstateAug 17, 2010
EVERYTHING should be free!!!
Right?
Right!?!?
ymegAug 17, 2010
Strawmen cost integrity.
powderedtoastyAug 17, 2010
Well an educated population is really better for everyone. I don't know if it can or should be free, but it's not really like everything else.
shauncorleoneAug 17, 2010
More people are going to college now than ever, yet I have a hard time believing we have a more educated population than ever. The growing expectation of post-secondary education is part of what's created the entitlement complex that's so prevalent. I'd wager at least half the people with an undergrad degree would have been much better served in their respective careers by 4 years of on the job training.
kazbaedenAug 17, 2010
Education is free. Head down to the public library, open a book, and educate yourself.
However, schooling isn't free, but in this country there really is every opportunity to go to school if you desire it.
edstateAug 17, 2010
@Kazbaeden:
How right you are. Bravo.
...sadly, only one out of a hundred think like you these days :(
steelchickenAug 17, 2010
Nothing is free buttercup, think about that as you deliver pizzas.
mothrogAug 17, 2010
And what worthless degree did you spend 5 years getting?
charlotte_webAug 17, 2010
There's no such thing as "free".
The money's got to come from somewhere, and more than likely you will pay it in increased taxes. And it will cost you far more over your lifetime than just the cost of your own education, because you will be subsidizing everyone else's education as well.
clippclopAug 17, 2010
Which is why a Canadians taxes are outrageously high compared to an Americans right? Oh wait, they aren't.
FUD
charlotte_webAug 17, 2010
Canadian colleges are heavily subsidized by the government, but you still have to pay tuition; they aren't free.
scottamusAug 17, 2010
and yet you still have free time to play on digg.
bibliophageAug 17, 2010
I think this guy looks at college in the wrong way. Yes, it is something you pay for to get you into the job market, but it is also a major life experience.that affects who you know and who you are for the rest of your life. I've known a couple of really smart people who did the community college thing their first two years and they complained about how intellectually stifling it was compared to when they finally got into a real university.
Closed AccountAug 17, 2010
Yes, community college professors are any worse than the TA's and assistant of the assistant to the professor teaching the first two year courses.
Your logic is so fail.
bibliophageAug 17, 2010
Wasn't talking about the professors. I was talking about the people who attend. University isolates you from a lot of people who aren't on the intellectual level.
Closed AccountAug 17, 2010
College much like the housing market is due to burst.. Way over inflated. There is no reason why a 100 level math book, hell any math book should cost you almost $200 US. That's just plain old greed and bulls**t at work there. College is almost to the point of being a waste of time anymore for the cost and eventual payoff...
jgzmanAug 17, 2010
Is that because it was a CC, or because they were taking English 101? The first year or so of collage sux pretty bad, for every program I've looked at.
hopzAug 18, 2010
This account has been closed by the user
xsubmergedAug 17, 2010
The thing I dislike about student loans is that it's not a guaranteed investment. In fact, more than half of people that start university will not finish. Perhaps this is since many 18 year old haven't solidified their life plans and realize they don't want a degree half way through.
I personally did it in baby steps. Went to community college, decided I am smarter. Received my undergrad in computer science...decided I am more ambitious and now working on my Master's.
Of course, my tuition is $275/course x 5 courses/semster...Comment is buried, click here to see the rest.
clippclopAug 17, 2010
"The thing I dislike about student loans is that it's not a guaranteed investment. In fact, more than half of people that start university will not finish."
Right, you go ahead and pin that statement on student loans. This isn't at all the fault of the student.Comment is buried, click here to see the rest.
xsubmergedAug 17, 2010
When did I say that it was the loans fault? Quite the opposite in fact.
kazbaedenAug 17, 2010
There's no such thing as a guaranteed investment. Once upon a time, houses were considered to reliably appreciate, but look what happened there.
xsubmergedAug 17, 2010
I agree. I was building up to my second point that a lot of people invest, but fall short of actual completion. Nothing is guaranteed, as you mentioned, however...+1
gizmo12688Aug 17, 2010
I'm glad I got through college without having to take out a loan, but grad school is a different beast altogether.....
protodonAug 17, 2010
yeah a totally unnecessary one. It's called 'upselling' and you fell for it.
gizmo12688Aug 17, 2010
It's also called furthering your education in a field you want to specialize in. I'm choosing to go to grad school.
darkstar949Aug 17, 2010
Depends on the field and what you are trying to accomplish, in some cases a Masters degree is the cost of admission to the next level in your career field unless you want to invest a lot of years (i.e. decades) to try and get to that next level (and maybe not get it).
charlotte_webAug 17, 2010
I did it differently. Took out student loans for my undergrad, and then was making enough to pay for my graduate degree out of pocket.
kazbaedenAug 17, 2010
What are you going to gradschool for? For me, it's the opposite; I took out 40k in loans for college, and gradschool is paying me $25k a year + tuition to attend.
jabbrwockeyAug 18, 2010
For biochem they pay you about 28K/yr to go to grad school.
Of course, you have to have two years to get a good research topic, before they kick you out with a terminal masters.
Trust me, having a terminal masters in biochemistry does almost nothing to improve your standing in the job hunt.
kammisanAug 17, 2010
40 diggs to front page? For this?
The author's got a built-in bias here. 2 years of community college will not always work out to 2 years of credit. More often than not, it'll be just one year, and you'll be stuck taking freshman level courses during your hypothetical "third' year to fill in the gaps for whatever core classes are required. Community college usually ends up being 2+3, saving a total of 1 year of tuition and setting you back a full year of your life.
How to actually finance your education:
Fill out the FAFSA correctly (and submit it at the beginning of the year), sign up for work-study, don't get into credit card debt. If you're considering a for-profit University, don't.
charlotte_webAug 17, 2010
You should be in communication with the admissions department of the four year school you want to graduate from before you start community college, so you know exactly which courses will transfer and which ones are a waste of time & money.
It's probably also helpful if the two school are in the same area, so that the university is commonly accepting students from that particular community college.
angryguy2009Aug 17, 2010
Exactly! I wish I had heard this advice before I went to community college. I lost an entire year's worth of credits because something didn't transfer or a class took 2 semesters at CC vs. 1 at the University.
The fact is, a lot of the CC counselors are ill-equipped to advise on the Universities' requirements.
yardieAug 17, 2010
I'd add to that, try to get matriculated as soon as possible. My parents started a company, money was tight and the uni gave me lots of aid. A year later business is booming, uni cuts my aid and I'm fighting for scraps to make rent. A year after that business is a trickle, but my FAFSA is based on what they made last year. I didn't attend school at all because I couldn't afford it. Since I spent a year working I was able to change my status from dependent to independent and got much more aid. I did loose healthcare coverage and it scared the s**t out of me.
blatsekAug 17, 2010
Well this is misinformed drivel. It's a law in most states that if you get your associates ALL credits will transfer to your state school. I'm not saying all states do this but I haven't heard of a state that DOESN'T do this.
ieatskunkAug 17, 2010
In CA if you complete General Education requirements at a community college then your first two years at a four year are satisfied, period. You can also satisfy some requirements beyond GE at community college, depending on your major.
And the education as a community college is better than four year for the same class because CC must satisfy the curriculum of all schools you can transfer to under their transfer agreement.
kornbred79Aug 17, 2010
This is a bulls**t article.
Federal Student Loans not only have a much lower rate of interest than a credit card, with many not accruing any interest while you are still enrolled in school. They also offer a wealth of options when it comes time to repay them including deferments and putting them in forbearance. They will also offer to restructure your payments to suit your financial situation.
People get in trouble with them because they ignore them and have some fantasy that they will just disappear.
I took out about $50k in loans between my undergraduate and graduate programs. Yes, repaying them now is a burden and prevents me from doing or getting everything I want, but it is also been really beneficial as my credit score rises each month I make payments and jumps each time I finish repaying one early.
clippclopAug 17, 2010
I am over paying mine by $100 a month. Debt management is not on the creditors, it's on the consumers.
You have nobody to blame but yourself if you go to post secondary and come out with 50k debt and a BA. This is advice that is thrown around EVERYWHERE: Don't go to post secondary unless you have a definitive plan for it.
The problem is people going to school and then coming out with no job options. I had a plan, but in the end, I changed my mind. I took a course, I liked it better. I dropped university and went to tech and now I am making twice as much as I would have. Sure I spent 20k more than I would have, but I am happy with my job and where I ended up.
ieatskunkAug 17, 2010
The point is to look at education as a product and to weigh the value of that product compared to what you are going to go into debt to pay for it (just as you ought to with any major purchase).
howcleverAug 17, 2010
Hey bro!
Glad you picked a career that pays enough to allow you to pay off your student loans, and that you aren't unemployed, or sick, and picked a career that is completely unsuitable for you to work in.
Lots of people aren't that lucky. People get in trouble because s**t doesn't always work out the way you plan it, not just because they are stupid or irresponsible.
kornbred79Aug 17, 2010
I have lost my job twice since beginning repayment.
Called AES both times and worked it out to keep the loans from defaulting.
dirtyfriesAug 17, 2010
Agreed.
The fed also offers some VERY helpful programs, like income based repayment options. (You can pay zero under a certain amount, small monthly amounts for low paying jobs).
Additionally, after 20 years the remainder is wiped away (10 years if working for a non-profit).
It's on the consumer to seek out and sign up for these programs.
davethe1stAug 17, 2010
I'm a junior in college and I've been able to avoid debt so far. I got my general education credits at community college before transferring to university, lived at home, and bought my books online. I've only got my first real job just before I started college, working less than 20 hours a week typically.
So, its all about developing a good strategy. I've kept my parents out of paying for my education. I miss out on living on campus but that s**t's overrated anyways.
charlotte_webAug 17, 2010
Too many distractions, living on campus when you're that young. Friends who are there to party are always trying to pull you away from your studies.
davethe1stAug 17, 2010
Exactly. While it would be fun I'm not really going to college to party. I'm going to make something out of myself.
Closed AccountAug 17, 2010
I have no way to pay back the $. I make $3.50 an hour delivering pizzas. Where's my security? I borrowed $ in the promise that school was going to get me a good job. The economy is f**ked up and the unemployment rate is rising, what's the point of throwing dirt on top of my already filled grave?
They got money for war but can't feed the poor- tupacComment is buried, click here to see the rest.
raiderduckAug 17, 2010
What kind of degree did you get?
Were you going for something you could actually get a job with, or did you get a Bachelor's in something like History or English or Philosophy?
I've known several people who have graduated with those degrees; each of them now has a lower-wage job that you don't even need a degree for. Why? Because non-specialized Bachelor's degrees are crappy for getting jobs with. They're fine if you're going on to Grad School (for instance, if you get a B.A. in Philosophy, and then get a Master's in Education), but not much else.
steelchickenAug 17, 2010
Are you starving? If not, STFU. Crybaby.
mothrogAug 17, 2010
Given that you've posted the same basic comment 3 times, I'm going to guess you have no security because you're an idiot.
charlotte_webAug 17, 2010
Getting a university degree is not a guarantee, it's a gamble. There is no guarantee of employment at any level of education, period.
A lot of it depends on you, and your ability to sell yourself. If you get a degree in investment banking from an Ivy League school, but lack the social skills to navigate the job interview process, then that is going to hinder your ability to land a job in investment banking.
kazbaedenAug 17, 2010
"I borrowed $ in the promise that school was going to get me a good job."
Well there's your problem. College isn't a trade school. No matter what your guidance counselor told you, you don't go to college to get a job; you go to college to get ACCESS to a different job market.
Unless you're a rock star student, you're going to graduate college and what you can reasonably expect is to get an entry-level $30k-$40k position. If you had spent the last 4 years working in construction, sales, automotive repair, or anything that doesn't need a college degree, you'd probably be making that or more, and you wouldn't be in debt.
What college does is allow you to become an engineer. A scientist. A teacher. A doctor. You aren't guaranteed anything when you graduate except that you'll have the qualifications to enter these fields. A job is not guaranteed. A $100k+ salary is not guaranteed. The sooner you realize this, the better.
charlotte_webAug 17, 2010
Well put.
fordsvt1Aug 17, 2010
Even a trade school doesn't get you a job if you're too lazy to look for one, or to move where the jobs in your field are.
jabbrwockeyAug 18, 2010
It's hard to do construction work or manufacturing when you're 50 years old.
clippclopAug 17, 2010
What promise? There is no promise that post secondary will get you a good job anywhere. That is nothing more than a myth that is quickly dispelled with parental advice and a week experience in post secondary.
This is your fault for not having a plan.
missinglinkAug 17, 2010
I've been paying a hefty chunk of my earnings since I graduated in 2002 - at the expense of saving and investing - and I'm about 1/4 done. My student loans were the biggest financial hole I've ever been in and it's frustrating because I dug that hole before I was old enough to have any idea what I was doing. I would absolutely do it differently if I could go back, and you'd better believe my kids won't follow in my footsteps.
gordonvAug 17, 2010
I would be the opposite of your situation. I couldn't afford college, not even community college, so I had to go work. Now, @ age 30, I am 1 class away from my associates (community college). I live with my folks but I have around $5,500 in the bank and $0 in all debts, credit, and whatever you want to throw in. It sucks knowing that all my positive wealth still won't cover a semester (5 months, $12,000) @ Rutgers.
I am essentially between 7 and 9 years behind. A real put down for me cause if I started and took the loans, I would have probably had a masters by now, along with a 5, or maybe a 6 digit debt.
I have college friends, their age ranges are from 18-25. I care about them deeply, but there's something in the back of my head that nags me about my age. Mind you, they've accepted me for who I am and all.
I do have major regrets of not going to college earlier, but I found that I wouldn't of been "happier." Just in more debt, like some of my cousins and friends.
charlotte_webAug 17, 2010
Meh... 30 is still way young. The jobs you want aren't going away, and your maturity and real-world experience are assets that give you an edge over that newly minted, pimple-faced 21 year old baccalaureate.
There are other options, if time is critical. Attend a cheaper university (move if you have to). Join the military for three years so that you can receive money through the GI Bill. Use your associates degree to land a job with a large employer who offers educational assistance. Talk to the financial aid department at the university about what grants might be available for people in your situation (sometimes there are grants specifically for older students in particular fields).
Your situation is not as uncommon as you think it is.
clippclopAug 17, 2010
Considering student loans work on a 9 year repayment plan, you must be another one of those that went and got a BA expecting a good job from it in the end.
You should have those paid off already if you follow their regular payment plan. The payment are so low, I don't know how you could not afford to...
raider007Aug 17, 2010
normally I like mint.com articles but not this one...
I have a s**t ton of student loans, but they're at 1.4% apr... which isn't bad, I'll be paying them forever, but they are tax deductible... additionally, it's an investment on my future, not stupid spending...
second, i went to a private college which cost a pretty penny, after 2 years i went to a CC one year to get generals out of the way, then I went back to the private college to finish up. the level of education different is massive, I wouldn't recommend ANYONE to spend more than a year at a community/junior college.. get the basic general classes out of the way and move somewhere else. CC is a complete joke, no better than being a senior in HS... get your ass out of there asap
skankingmikeAug 17, 2010
I agree with the article on many levels.
That being said, there are some other points he did not touch on.
1.) Private school has more scholarship options and some other areas in which Public schools do not have. Thus my wife who graduated with a small private loan (semester in England) paid less than what she would have paid had she gone to an instate school. Thus the point is apply to all scholarships possible.
2.) Do not get private loans. This of course will be solved a lot with the new Education Financial reform we all have been waiting for and probably the best thing to be added on to a bill in forever.
3.) IBR it's your friend. Basically the IBR of public loans is amazing. This will essentially alleviate what this article is talking about. Want to have 100k in student loan debt? That's ok you only pay for 20 years and it's based off your income level. And there's debt forgiveness within the public sector. It's a round about way of socialized education, a positive in my eyes.
As an aside, where you go to school usually doesn't matter (with some exceptions). It's who you network with while going to school that matters. The biggest problem many people face when trying to get jobs are not knowing people in the industry. Networking should be the first class they have in school, it's as important if not more important than English 100, 200. If you don't know that people get jobs based off who they know more than what they know, than you haven't figured out this world yet.
kartman2001Aug 17, 2010
*3 I still can't imagine paying for anything for 20 years other than a house.
skankingmikeAug 17, 2010
Your education is worth more than a house and can never be taken away.
kartman2001Aug 18, 2010
Depends on what kind of education you are getting I guess. 20 years paying back a liberal arts or business degree still just seems crazy to me.
dirtyfriesAug 17, 2010
All this right here is the key.
Great post.
Closed AccountAug 17, 2010
So what everyone is saying is that.. oh hold on it's the door. Oh f**k, it's the FBI. Oh well see you guy in a few ye
snittAug 17, 2010
Here in Belgium it's 550€ for a year in a university ( batchelor or master degree ), and if you come from a poor family, It's even less ( like half the price or something ), so I guess we are kinda lucky. But hey, do pay taxes for all of that. But I think it's worth it, I like not having to think about loans and stuff, else it's like being a little 'enslaved' from an early age. All my money goes into seeing the world these days :) .
theoriginalaksAug 17, 2010
The trick is to not go to a private school, at least here in Florida I am making roughly 5,000-6,000 dollars a year in pure profit simply for attending college from my various scholarships/grants. I can not even fathom a purpose for going into debt for a bachelor's degree. I am saving the soul crushing debt for graduate school and eventually a ph.d program.
kazbaedenAug 17, 2010
Graduate school, especially a Ph.D., is usually fully paid for if you land a TA or RA spot. I'm entering a Ph.D. this year and they're paying me a stipend + tuition. In the meantime, my undergrad loans will go into deferment I won't have to make payments or pay interest for the next 6-7 years while doing my Ph.D..
roy5000x2Aug 17, 2010
Tuition and living at my university is a bit over $50k a year. I know kids who will graduate (if they graduate on time, which is rather hard) with over $200k in debt.
The trade off is (well, before the economic crisis), you could land a $50k a year job without trying too hard after. Some earned well over $100k their first year after graduating. These days though, I don't know why some of my friends scoff at and turn down $40k a year, and even $30k a year jobs.
nickymouseAug 17, 2010
Live off-campus, find room mates, learn to love rice and instant noodles. I just saved you at 20k a year.
purplekatAug 18, 2010
You forgot being willing to attend any kind of reception, special lecture, lesbian feminist poetry reading, or terrible student-produced one act disaster if there will be free food.
smackydoodleAug 17, 2010
There's a huge difference in credit card debt and student loan debt. The majority of financial advisers will tell you the same thing.
Credit card is bad debt, student loans are good debt. Sure, anything can be overboard, but student loans are investments. You'll never make money off of credit card debt. I more than doubled my annual salary and absolutely love my job after going back to college. I also have possibilities of advancement I never would have had in the past.
It's troubling how much the post-secondary education world is taking such a huge hit these days by many (not necessarily the author) thinking it is unnecessary.
autokadAug 17, 2010
student loans are better debt than cc debt, but by no means is it 'good' debt. the only good debt is no debt at all.
clippclopAug 17, 2010
Student loans are good debt, if you don't spends them stupidly.
5 years of experience working with computers and you're not even breaking 50k? You need to find a new job.
autokadAug 17, 2010
i hear ya clippclop =(
skankingmikeAug 17, 2010
See that's where I would disagree with you. Student loan debt is "good" debt up until you take out more than you'll earn. a 100k+ student loan is bad if you're not coming out of school with at least 70k a year job. One may pay, on a 100k loan, a rate of 500-700 dollars a month on average, and if those loans are private forget it. You can never remove student loan debt. Credit cards can be haggled and removed, but Student loan debt is forever. (unless it's direct gov loans than it's 20 years under the IBR plan).
Hell even if you own a house you can't afford that debt is a wash after foreclosure.
Closed AccountAug 17, 2010
Go to community college for 2 years, save a f**k ton of money. Also I'm planning on transferring to Michigan State or Central Michigan next year, I have a 2.8, 2.9gpa, thats because I got mostly B's, a few C's, and even fewer A's, trying to get more A's, but any MSU, CMU transfers on here, whats my chances of getting into these colleges with my GPA? I've checked CMU's website, and MSU's as well, but still I'm just wondering if my GPA is good enough.
autokadAug 17, 2010
if i recall, schools dont like transferring Cs
Closed AccountAug 17, 2010
Actually you have to have at least a C to get that credit/class transferred. It is a C- that doesn't get transferred, weird huh, a lot of professors in my CC stopped giving C-'s for that reason.
kazbaedenAug 17, 2010
CMU = Carnegie Mellon University to everyone outside of Central Michigan University.
zaffirAug 22, 2010
You should be able to get into Central easily, and probably MSU.
My brother went from Washtenaw CC to Central with a GPA that isn't outstanding (i don't remmeber it exactly), and I transferred from Washtenaw CC to MSU with a 3.5 or so.
One word of advice: DOUBLE CHECK TRANSFER REQUIREMENTS! MSU has a list of classes you HAVE to have taken before they'll accept you. My first transfer app was denied because I hadn't taken a second english composition course. I only had to register for that class and forward MSU admissions proof that I'd done so and I was accepted (on the condition that I pass the class, of course). Central probably has something similar.
mydiggloginAug 17, 2010
I had about $45K in loans at the end of my BS (highly ranked public engineering school). I paid it off in a few years. I make six figures now. I'm not complaining. If not for student loans, I wouldn't be in this position.
Closed AccountAug 17, 2010
The college in the US is a joke and a scam. The slacker/binge drinker gets the same piece of paper as a student with their head on straight getting decent grades. There's very little that distinguishes your particular skills, strengths, weaknesses, or overall knowledge basis from the next guy.
ieatskunkAug 17, 2010
No, there is a difference. The binge drinker/slacker got a degree in philosophy. The hard working student got a degree in mechanical engineering. Do the math.
Closed AccountAug 17, 2010
Wouldn't the slacker get a bit of paper saying that they are effectively useless at the subject and a reminder of all that wasted money, whereas the hard worker will get a similar piece of paper saying that they're good at the subject and can open a lot of doors with it?
stingwolfAug 17, 2010
The selected major and GPA also factor in when someone is hiring. My 3.5 in Computer Engineering is not "the same piece of paper" as my friend's 2.8 in Psychology.
Closed AccountAug 17, 2010
No kidding lol why would you be applying for the same position or something even remotely related???
stingwolfAug 17, 2010
OK, I'll simplify. My 3.5 in Computer Engineering is not "the same piece of paper" as my friend's 2.8 in Computer Engineering.
bumb1ebeeAug 17, 2010
What a bunch of bull. There are plenty of ways to distinguish yourself from the next guy. You can get honors, do research, volunteer, participate in extracurricular activities, anything. College is only a joke for those who go into it without the motivation or determination to make their education worthwhile. The resources are there and opportunities are there, you just have to work for them.
protodonAug 17, 2010
I'm glad I went to a state university. I'm 7 years out of college and I have no student debt.. I paid that off a few years ago.
twobluedayAug 17, 2010
I went to state schools, I worked part time, I used the GI bill. I had no student debt, not a penny, and no support from parents (who were poor and barely making ends meet).
In many years of practicing law, not one client ever asked me where I went to undergraduate school, or where I went to law school.
Not. One.
kazbaedenAug 17, 2010
Again, the school you go to is mostly about networking. Look at the supreme court, dominated by Harvard and Yale graduates. Sure your state school is great for your private practice, but if you have your sights set for the Presidency or Supreme court you better get your ass in an Ivy.
jabbrwockeyAug 18, 2010
When getting an MBA, you can get it with Phoenix online or you can go to a ranked school and make valuable connections.
keessAug 17, 2010
There's a point to be made that students shouldn't accrue huge debts if they don't really want the education, and that some schools aren't actually worth the tuition they charge, but this article is insulting.
"You don't need to do or have the things you want, hurry through CC as fast as you can so you can get to that cubicle and start saving for your funeral"
kyanAug 17, 2010
a-HA! So, you saying this article was written by...
(Puts on sunglasses)
...the Man.
Closed AccountAug 17, 2010
I see a lot of people who paid extra to wipe our their student loans early. This is not always the best choice, especially these days. Invest it and earn compounding returns for the rest of your life. You will end up with a much more cash in the end. Not to mention that now is one of the best times to buy stocks, they are dirt cheap.
gordonvAug 17, 2010
A girl I dated did up to Calc 5. She did 2 of her Calcs in Community College.
The community college does up to Calc 4.
ieatskunkAug 17, 2010
The problem is students get degrees in areas that won't help them in life (psych, business, etc) because the job market is saturated with those degrees. This all comes from the "you can do whatever you want when you grow up". Teach your kids "you can do whatever hobby you want when you grow up, but you are going to get a into good career, even if it is hard."
kazbaedenAug 17, 2010
Right because degrees in psych and business won't help you become a psychiatrist or a marketing manager. I have many friends who graduated with business degrees who landed jobs in banking, consulting, financial planning, marketing, operations management, and accounting right out of college. The lowest starting salary was $50k while the highest was $90k.
I can't think of one person in my graduating class who tried to land a job and didn't get one. I should know as I collected all the statistics.
Closed AccountAug 17, 2010
disagree that business degrees won't help you get a job. Every person I've known with a business degree got job offers before they even graduated. Granted, I went to a university that was known for its excellent business program...but I've heard the same from other universities as well. A psych degree is also a first step in receiving a doctorate degree in that area of study (which most go on to do). I believe if a person is passionate about what they want to do, they can indeed make a living off that hobby (maybe not a great living, but something). Getting a degree in something just for the money may seem like a good idea at first, but in the long run I'm sure you'll find yourself incredibly unhappy with your life if you're doing something everyday that you have no interest in at all. I'd say go for whatever it is you love to do, but be realistic and keep in mind that whatever that is may not necessarily make you a lot of money.
ieatskunkAug 17, 2010
When I wrote the post I was thinking of the many many people who get a bachelors in one of those fields and then is done with school. Those degrees are worthless because of the sheer number of people that have them. I dont know anyone with a bachelors in those fields that isn't either a) waiting tables or b)unemployed. And this is the SF bay area where there are plenty of jobs. If you want to do something with psych or business then you need a masters at a minimum (though PhD is the best bet). At that point you start to stand out and opportunity is available.
If you want to see countries like India and China dominate the United States then, by all means, encourage your children to "do what makes them happy" instead of challenging themselves and becoming producers in society.
darkstar3333Aug 17, 2010
The people I know who graduated with a ton of student debt all have one thing in common, they didn't bother working for those 4 years. Even working part time you'll make enough money to help pay down the principle and reduce the overall cost of borrowing significantly.
Those who say they can't manage going to school full time and working part time are kidding themselves, learning those critical time management skills will be important if you ever have kids.
fordsvt1Aug 17, 2010
Very true. Let's face it: the majority of programs do not require you to spend 40 hours a week between classes and study/work. Most people spend maybe fifteen hours a week in classes and a few hours a night studying outside of exam crunch time, there is no reason thee average person can't fit in at least a part time job.
Hell, we've all heard stories of single parents going to school AND working full time, if they can do it surely to god some middle-class, 20 year old guy or girl can.
purplekatAug 18, 2010
I couldn't have worked and gone to school at the same time. Or -- I could have, but I wouldn't have gotten as much out of it. However, I also applied myself to the same degree in high school and managed to nab a big merit-based scholarship. If you're willing to work to apply for them, scholarships can get you as much as you'd make working part time, in some cases.
Or you could do what my father did and get a night shift working at a library, I guess. :P
darkstar3333Aug 21, 2010
Nah, Applying extra time to land scholarships is the better way to do it. Not exactly plentiful but a good option if you can get it.
boner79Aug 17, 2010
Why is it that mortgage interest is fully tax deductible (above the standard deduction) yet there is a cap on student loan interest that is tax deductible? I'd rather subsidize younger people with full careers ahead of them yet drowning in student loan debt than wealthy older people with massive houses and mortgage debt.
purplekatAug 18, 2010
Because wealthy older people vote, and young people drowning in student debt don't.
If all the young adults started turning up at the polls at the same rate as the boomers and the generation before them, a lot of things would change.
compsonAug 17, 2010
If the author really thinks that going to law school "practically guarantees you a job for as long as you want one", he has no business writing about education.
What a joke! The truth is that for recent grads, the school on your degree matters WAY MORE than it should. It's a sad fact.
siblyAug 17, 2010
Name recognition doesn't count for much unless you go to an Ivy.
I could have gone to one of the best public schools in the country for free but I didn't because of the experience. I chose an out of state private school because they didn't have the traditional "two years of core liberal arts". I started taking classes in my field right off the bat as a freshmen. Also, I believe that the networking and opportunities at small private schools are well worth the cost. I know my professors personally; I've been introduced to CEOs and authors. At a smaller school, I've been able to get involved & start clubs while they are still small enough to make a difference. I know that I wouldn't have had these opportunities or been as involved to the same extent as at a large public.
jabbrwockeyAug 18, 2010
Everything that you just said can happen at a small private school or at a larger state school - it all depends on how motivated of an individual you are.
You can start clubs and expect a following immediately because you have such a large base to draw from. Similarly, there are more research jobs available in your field and you get to work one on one with professors instead of just staying after class to say hi.
Closed AccountAug 17, 2010
You can't justify this broken system by comparing degrees or fields of study that are extremely different and would obviously be on different pay scales.
New scenario to put it into perspective: Two students, same major. One is a slacking binge drinker, one is aspiring to be the best in that particular field. They both get the same degree but in reality they had GPA's reflective of their effort that are on the complete opposite ends of the spectrum.
I guess my point is that the system allows slackers to skate by without trying, graduate, and saturate the job market with degrees that don't immediately reflect their actual skills. It's a wasteful education system.
fordsvt1Aug 17, 2010
A lot of employers, especially in specialized and engineering degrees, are certainly very interested in knowing your grades and GPA when you're fresh out of school. Might not matter so much when you've got a BA and apply to the city to get a job paving roads for $25/hour, but it does when you're trying to get a job as an electrical engineer at 22.
purplekatAug 18, 2010
I suspect it might be the people who skated by who are leading this battle cry of 'college doesn't matter'. Yeah, it doesn't matter if you stumbled through it drunk.
I had no social life in college. My social life was studying, and none of my friends were that focused, so I didn't see them for four years. The education that I got made me the person I am today. I wouldn't trade it for double the money it cost.
fordsvt1Aug 18, 2010
On the other hand, I studied my ass off in university and college before that, worked part time while I was in school, graduated with a 3.6 GPA and still had a social life. You don't necessarily need to punish yourself like some kind of cloistered monk to be successful in university. Part of the university experience SHOULD entail meeting new people, networking and occasionally having fun, it's a part of your education too.
richmomzAug 17, 2010
Protip: don't listen to assh**e school recruiters that tell you how all their graduates get great jobs. They're basically nothing more than glorified used car salesmen. Use common sense when making decisions about your academic future.
davey914Aug 17, 2010
So I went to dental school at NYU and I pretty much owe $300,000 over a 30 year life time. I really wanted to be a dentist but I knew that there was no way I could save $300,000 (tuition, room and board, books, instruments, supplies/food) and adjust it for inflation. I'd never get in.
I did apply to a lot of schools (wasn't cheap to do that either) especially the cheap ones. For example UCLA Dental tuition would cost around 1/3 of what I currently owe, but everyone else applying knew that too so it's thousands of applicants for 40 spots. My degree can help me pay off my debt and I'm buying used cars, living frugally, but it's still daunting.
Dunno if anyone brought up this fact, half of my loans are from the government and I can lock in their interest rates by consolidating ~4% which isn't bad. The other half was thru Citibank (other people went thru other private banks) and they don't consolidate and the interest rates are floating which is very frustrating because you want the economy to do well, but when it does do well the interest on your loans start to go up. The highest they were hovered at 7.25% yikes.
I don't appreciate this author trivializing my career (I really love doing this) because it requires a lot of investment. He did mention ROI if you're in medicine, but he probably relates what I do to a mechanic. By his logic, I should just do something that doesn't even require a college degree because I won't have any student loans?
What he should be upset about is the fact that half of everyone who borrows money has to go thru a private bank and private banks don't consolidate these loans (they want the interest rate to float) and if they do consolidate they give you a 10% interest rate. There should be a cap as to how high the interest rates can climb.
jabbrwockeyAug 18, 2010
Orthodontia.
THAT will pay off your student loans in a much shorter time, after which you can switch back to dentistry.
apextekAug 17, 2010
when i left high school i wasnt the best student. however you want to put it i ranked about 780 out of 800 students in my class so not too good.
I was rewarded for my excellent status in highschool by being denied to all the cheap schools, but one little private school that was in financial trouble was taking anyone that the feds would give loan to so i was in.
My luck is that after spending 6 years at this 4 year school the went from a joke to one of the best private schools in the country so i actully left with respectable degree.
My GPA was like 1.1 my freshman year and i was kicked out, only to be allowed back in toward the end of the summer when they realized they needed every tuition dollar to complete the necessary renovation to become the great school they would become.
They worked with me and when i graduated 6 years later (1 year repeated, 1 year hiatus) i had a 4.0 for my senoir year.
That had led me to a nice job making nearly 60k a year but 9 years after graduating i still owe 45k in loans and i feel the college will pretty much own me until i die and they get there cut from my life insurance.
wookieAug 17, 2010
It's simple: even if you default on your student loans they can't take away your diploma. Having a college diploma makes a huge difference in the amount of wealth you can accumulate in your lifetime, even if you start off by failing to pay back your student loans.
kevinisleetAug 18, 2010
i felt like a loser only going to a community college while my friends are bragging about cal state and universities
...but in 2 years, ill be done with my RN program that only costs $3k, ill be making $60,000 a year, with practically no debt at all with a degree, then an extra year for my BSN for almost nothing.
honukaiAug 18, 2010
While there is some good information in this article, there is also a value to big name schools. Think its a coincidence that a majority of modern presidents have degrees from Yale, Duke or Harvard?
I 100% agree about the taking courses at community colleges, but at the same time staying at the same school for 4 years will allow you to build livelong relationships (good or bad). I'd say a far bigger problem is people getting unnecessary degrees. Still..some jobs just want you to have a degree, no matter what kind.
justgonzoAug 18, 2010
well, that article came about ten years too late....
addixAug 18, 2010
I never understood my friends who took out loans for private schools for majors that would eventually be lucky to start them at 40k a year.
That's right, social acceptability doesn't end at college, it just gets more expensive.
stephanadiceAug 24, 2010
This should be titled 'Why Asian Parents Send Their Children to UCs.'