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klingon00Aug 24, 2010Submitter
http://blogs.wsj.com/marketbeat/2010/08/23/yes-folks-hindenburg-omen-tripped-again/
How many more signs do we need before we start accepting that the Obama administration's policies have been a complete failure. It's time for some REAL change, something our government hasn't tried for decades. Get big Government out of the way and let this nation's entrepreneurs lead the recovery!Comment is buried, click here to see the rest.
kent4jmjAug 24, 2010
The analogy of trying to turn one of those super cargo tankers around might fit here. If you can see the rocks its already too late to turn the ship to avoid a crash.
Looks like the coming one is going to be especially bad.
statisttwoAug 24, 2010
What coming one?
stonebearAug 25, 2010
Perhaps you meant to say the rest of this one.
firesphotonsAug 25, 2010
Hey Klingon, Obama isn't living up to my expectations either. HOWEVER, to attempt to stain him with the baton of economic s**t he was handed is disingenuous, after all this slide didn't start at his inauguration..
PS If you think McLame Palin would have better by all means vote for her misinformed ass next time.
h8f8kesAug 25, 2010
@fires: I do not think that the president is solely to blame and I doubt that is what Klingon is saying. What is clear is that the attempts to clean up the mess is only making this worse.
thuktunAug 27, 2010
No, that's not at all clear. The good news that's masking the bad (mentioned in the article) is arguably at least partly due to the stimulus spending from last year that's now winding down.
bigterguyAug 25, 2010
It's only going to get worse, much worse....
"Morgan Stanley Says Government Defaults Inevitable
Investors will face defaults on government bonds given the burden of aging populations and the difficulty of securing more tax revenue, according to Morgan Stanley.
“Governments will impose a loss on some of their stakeholders,” Arnaud Mares, an executive director at Morgan Stanley in London, wrote in a research report today. “The question is not whether they will renege on their promises, but rather upon which of their promises they will renege, and what form this default will take.” The sovereign-debt crisis is global “and it is not over,” the report said.
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2010-08-25/morgan-stanley-says-government-bond-default-is-question-of-how-not-if-.html
kkonarikAug 25, 2010
The analogy of going full steam ahead might fit here too.
Obama had his chance to turn it around and took the wrong path.
richmomzAug 24, 2010
To be fair this is really a combined failure of the last several administrations that failed to address and deal with the financial risks to our economic system.
stonebearAug 25, 2010
The government has been deeply corrupt for many years. The false right/left paradigm has been just a ruse to keep the saps busy while the criminals clean the place out.
therealobadiahAug 25, 2010
No, the reality is that while Republicans have some blame here, the vast majority of the blame belongs at the feet of liberal Democrats. Barney Frank, Chris "Countrywide" Dodd, Acorn and the bunch screeming that banks were racist for not giving loans to people who could not afford to pay them back.
And then we have LBJ and his great society spending trillions on failed social programs that have bankrupted us. Liberal politicians and their liberal media cheerleaders demand that anyone who doesn't agree with handing over taxpayer money for welfare schemes is a heartless animal.
Liberals demanded that nuclear power was evil and that we cannot drill on 99% of the land in our own country, thus we are dependent on Middleast oil and sending our wealth overseas. And then we have ridiculous global warming scams designed to such more money from the private sector and put it into the hands of liberal politicians to hand out to Union bosses so they can help retain their political power.
It is sick, and most of the blame belongs at the feet of liberals. So don't kid yourself when things start to blow up and now declare that "everyone does it."
skunkman62Aug 25, 2010
"thus we are dependent on Middleast oil" dude, you still believe that myth? just do a little research and find out the truth. oh "liberal media" blah, blah, blah. all news is slanted! quit spewing this right wing bulls**t. and before you liberals pile on, f**k you and your big government.
Closed AccountAug 25, 2010
the problem is, who can bring us "REAL" change? The reps? The Dems? The Libs? The Green? Who?
Nobody that's who. It's going to crash hard and we'll as one people have to rebuild it....Maybe we can make it work this time?
UphemismAug 25, 2010
Politicians jobs are to get re-elected. That is it, that is all. They will say/do what they have to say/do to get elected.
If they feel that the people are smart enough not to be bought off with their own money, they will respond accordingly. If however, as they know, people will be bought off with their own money - all they have to promise is that they will give you something/anything for nothing....
The masses buy it, the politicians give them something, then when the bill comes due, they claim it is the other parties fault...
You can compare the state of politics to an infested house. The politicians are the roaches, the parasites. But they aren't really the cause of the problem, they are the effect. The cause of the problem is the uneducated voter being bought off with their own money, or in the case of the infested house the dirty people leaving food around.
butterbeeAug 25, 2010
@Uphemism - Exactly! That's why the government shouldn't have more than limited regulatory control over the economy. Money in the government's hands is money in politician's hands. Who can blame them for the very natural greed that compels them to use that money for self-preservation.
Had the limited powers of the federal government as described in the constitution been adhered to, these messes would be so much smaller and self-correcting.
The housing bubble never would've happened.
howcleverAug 25, 2010
http://stfuconservatives.tumblr.com/post/661229562
You realize the depression/recession started before Obama took office, right?
islanddogAug 25, 2010
You do know that Obama has made everything 100x worse, right?
crunchdiggAug 25, 2010
No, doggy.
seltaeb4Aug 25, 2010
Good God, what an ignorant tool you are.
"How many more signs do we need before we start accepting that the Obama administration's policies have been a complete failure. It's time for some REAL change, something our government hasn't tried for decades. Get big Government out of the way and let this nation's entrepreneurs lead the recovery!"
Americans have been f**ked over nine ways to Sunday now for nearly 4 decades by the policies of Nixon and Reagan. The ghost of Archie Bunker might still buy that trickle-down bulls**t you're smearing everywhere, but no one else does.
seldon21Aug 25, 2010
Good heavens man you mean the bs that we have been fed for the last 40 years is just that.
Closed AccountAug 25, 2010
But leave out Carter and Clinton eh?..
thuktunAug 27, 2010
And the Bushes too, yes, since all of them were really following the path laid down by Nixon and reinforced by Reagan.
jiggawattAug 25, 2010
Populist anger at the banks without any bailouts would put us at 20%+ unemployment and soup lines across the country. No it's not f**king fair, but you're an ignorant tool. I'd love for all of you teabaggers to spend a week in your alternate fantasy future.Comment is buried, click here to see the rest.
beylanAug 25, 2010
Glass-Stegall was repealed in 1999 under Clinton. And before you blame the republican congress the final bill was passed 90-8 in the Senate and 362-57 in the House. That is about a close as you are ever going to get to a unanimous decision in Congress in a non-emergency situation.
If you want to blame parties then BOTH of them share in this particular mess along with the financial industry (who were major campaign contributors and had been lobbying to get it repealed for decades).
And the solution is to give the very same people who created this mess even more power, money, authority to fix it? And you are surprised that they cant or wont?
butterbeeAug 25, 2010
Bailing out the banks warped the system. Propping up the housing warped the system (you'd think we'd have learned this one first). Expanding government payrolls warped the system. All that and the bottom is still further down. WTG guys!
The best answer was to have exposed the risk immediately through open information and consistent policy. That's been the historical magic of the US economy.
Unfortunately, markets/investors/entrepreneurs STILL DON'T KNOW what the ACTUAL RISK is in any of these sectors due to government meddling/masking. Now we can add health care as another screwed up sector!
There would have been a severe crash had some banks failed. House prices would have fallen faster without the subsidies. Unemployment numbers would have gone up faster without Uncle Sam hiring them all. But in the end, the system would be trusted, risk and true value would have been exposed quickly and we'd have already been having a much healthier recovery.
All these bad policy decisions were made by a scrambling executive branch with the foremost objective to show good "numbers" for as long as possible. Now we're all just limping along still heading to the bottom, still masking risk, not knowing what anything is actually worth. WTG. Your asscovering attempts have prolonged the slump!
midniteowlAug 25, 2010
Big government did step out of the way... and big banks like savvy salesman sold you on risky investments. go figure.
itsjustjenAug 25, 2010
I'm still waiting for the top 1% of American wealth holders to start creating all of the jobs that will set off that trickle down stuff.
pw378Aug 26, 2010
The only reason there are jobs is because of the top 1%. Even Government jobs exist because of the top 1% of earners - since they pay 95% of the taxes. Kill off the top 1%, and you effectively kill the entire economy. Overtax the top 1%, and they will still create jobs - but in Mexico or other countries. They aren't stupid, and they aren't without the means to pack up and leave if they feel they are being screwed over.
Fairness is all they ask for. They don't mind paying taxes, but we all just need to ensure the tax system is fair for everyone, not biased based on resentment because someone else has more than we do. Jealousy and envy are the worst of human traits.
pw378Aug 26, 2010
The only reason there are jobs is because of the top 1%. Even Government jobs exist because of the top 1% of earners - since they pay 95% of the taxes. Kill off the top 1%, and you effectively kill the entire economy. Overtax the top 1%, and they will still create jobs - but in Mexico or other countries. They aren't stupid, and they aren't without the means to pack up and leave if they feel they are being screwed over.
Fairness is all they ask for. They don't mind paying taxes, but we all just need to ensure the tax system is fair for everyone, not biased based on resentment because someone else has more than we do. Jealousy and envy are the worst of human traits.
nolibrariansAug 24, 2010
Bulls**t!
vbullingerAug 24, 2010
What a long-winded, convincing argument. I'm totally convinced now.
richmomzAug 24, 2010
How can you argue with that? Well that settles it then! /s
caferrellAug 25, 2010
@NoLibertarians
OK, there's no longer any doubt. In all your many personas you are a paid troll. There aren't any people as crazily infatuated and loyal to power as you are, ergo - you are paid to do this.
govtdoesnotworkAug 25, 2010
But who'd pay for this?? It can't be very lucrative.
caferrellAug 25, 2010
The Federal government has to reach spending goals gov. They are over a billion short of this week's spending goals.
avengingturnipAug 25, 2010
You need to read through this thread if you haven't. Inactive is the second to latest Dilberto incarnation before getting banned.
http://digg.com/people/Michelle_Obama_Laura_Bush_to_commemorate_9_11_together?t=34457185#c34464958
Here are a couple of his money quotes:
"Where we come from is not for you to decide, but we can tell you that its lucrative, and the people who pay have strong feelings."
"It helps that we are 6 people in different places. It makes IP bans a lot harder to enforce."
Take away from that what you will.
richmomzAug 25, 2010
Seriously, if I was paying him to troll I'd want my money back, as more often than not he just serves as a convenient foil to point out how absurd his viewpoint is.
caferrellAug 25, 2010
Rich,
That's what I thought for a long time, but not any more. The NoLibertarisns clone trolls do two things:
They bury new articles posted by credible libertarians. And I now understand that the algorithm is written so that a number of rapid buries will keep a post out of the public eye and therefore off the front page. So the first thing that they do is to keep an eye on you and govtdoesnotwork and avengingturnip and phenry etc. so that they can kill any article before it gains traction.
The second thing they do is divert the conversation in comment threads from a thoughtful discussion of an issue to an adolescent shoving match. This repels curious people who might otherwise read and consider the libertarian ideas.
If you consider how well organized the trolls are, how they are willing to be buried and reviled all day and the amount of time they dedicate to this.....
cointelproagentAug 25, 2010
If you consider how well organized the trolls are, how they are willing to be buried and reviled all day and the amount of time they dedicate to this.....it can only mean one thing. Chuck Palahniuk was wrong. Caferrell is a beautiful and unique snowflake. Comment is buried, click here to see the rest.
errdayimhustlinAug 25, 2010
The troll is either motivated by spite or is paid. he may claim to do it for the lulz, but nolibs is either butthurt or getting paid.
govtdoesnotworkAug 25, 2010
In tribute to the recent (excellent) Daily Show episodes, there should be a "team butthurt" & "team paid" debate, complete with light blue shirts featuring labels. But sadly, we're only that organized in ManCrush's fertile imagination.
drmangrumAug 25, 2010
The maddening thing is that we have people like NoLibertarians and all his clones that do their best to bury opposition voice, people like Novenator and his army of progressives that tell each other which stories to bury through shout codes, and then they have the gall to then accuse the conservative and libertarian Digg users of censorship.
errdayimhustlinAug 25, 2010
Normally I would feel somewhat guilty for writing these blatant ad-homs, but when 90% of what nolibs posts is aimed at one or two people, and is either consistently and thoroughly thoughtless, or inflammatory then it's obvious you're not dealing with a typical poster... That fool only cares about f**king with people. He's gaming or trolling. It couldn't be more obvious.
NoFedAuditAug 25, 2010
^^^^ The trolls are swarming
nolibrariansAug 25, 2010
I think Cafferel may have been smoking Pot again. The paranoia here is off the charts!
caferrellAug 25, 2010
The nervous reaction, the swarming of trolls at 2:00 AM makes me think that I'm right.
Have a nice day
statisttwoAug 24, 2010
Buried as inaccurate. We are not in a depression nor were we in a depression since the great depression.
richmomzAug 24, 2010
Statist denial at its best - go ahead and play us another tune, the decks on the Titanic aren't completely awash yet!
statisttwoAug 24, 2010
We don't even have much of a recession in my area.
klingon00Aug 24, 2010Submitter
Lucky you, you must live in D.C. or some other area awash in government (our) money (Union town perhaps?). Your experience is not the norm for the rest of the country unfortunately.
danieltttAug 25, 2010
@statisttwo " We don't even have much of a recession in my area."
Where would that be?
caferrellAug 25, 2010
In NoLibertarians' house.
h8f8kesAug 25, 2010
Can you have a recession in your moms basement?
Closed AccountAug 25, 2010
"We don't even have much of a recession in my area."
bravo! i guess all is well with the entire country because your area is fine... reminds me of something... oh yea!
"there is no such thing as global warming because its been cool around where i live"
eastwood24Aug 25, 2010
Here's a morning read you might enjoy...
http://www.zerohedge.com/article/morgan-stanley-says-governments-will-default-only-question-how
ghengiskhan1Aug 24, 2010
Bout f**kin time someone stated the obvious.
Where is your government or god now America? Youve been praying for a recovery and it hasnt happened. You put your faith in your government to fix the economy and it worsened.
YOU are f**ked unless YOU do something about it. Your imaginary friend in the sky is not going to fix this and the government (the cause of the problem to begin with) is not going to fix this problem so what are YOU going to do? Vote for the GOP and hope they fix it? If that is your plan then you are going to be very disappointed. Are you going to double down on Obamanomics? Again, youre going to be very disappointed.Comment is buried, click here to see the rest.
statisttwoAug 24, 2010
So what country are you from?
r1y23Aug 25, 2010
While I agree with the overall message in your post the way you said it seemed quite bitter.
UphemismAug 25, 2010
When the country you love is going down the tubes, that tends to get people bitter.
Everyone sees the problems. Everyone, when not in a political discussion admits that politicians suck, and even in moments of lucidity will admit that they know all politicians of all stripes suck and are parasites on the taxpayers(AKA working class), then only to go back and vote for the politicians of the same sucky parties that got you into the mess in the first place....Well, that would cause many to be very, very bitter.
ikorkyiAug 25, 2010
I don't really have any proof that current policies have failed or current policies have kept things from being a whole lot worse. I see a lot of people pointing the finger and blaming, but no one really has any idea what they are talking about or proof that what they are suggesting is true.
UphemismAug 25, 2010
Be careful not to misunderstand the figure pointing. I don't think anyone is pointing the figure at one party, or one person, more so the entire system and how it has been gamed...
That said, there are a lot of people with ideas to fix this. It is just the ideas require a lot of effort, and less perks - which is to say, people don't want to hear about it. They want a solution that others will do, and requires no effort on their part.
Comment is buried, click here to see the rest.
jbmcbAug 25, 2010
I work in an industry adjacent to manufacturing, and we're seeing a ramp-up in production from our customers as well.
Anecdotal evidence, but it looks like there is more economic activity happening.
citizenplusplusAug 25, 2010
In Oil We Trust
cougar3429Aug 25, 2010
poor economy != God is imaginary
nice "logic"
aladinsaneAug 25, 2010
Is there ANYTHING that douchebags won't try and turn into a rant against Religion?
sandylandersAug 25, 2010
Obamanomics right now amounts to Herbert Hoovers economics. After the 1929 major stock correction Hoover increased govt spending, raised taxes and engaged in more regulation. The result? A 10 yr economic depression. Obama is right there with Hoover and awash in his Keynesian fallacy. What is Biden saying? "We are moving in the right direction." Got to love Joe and the parallel universe in his febrile liberal mind.Comment is buried, click here to see the rest.
boneheadfarkerAug 25, 2010
You're a f**king idiot. Hoover's problem was that he raise tariffs on international trade in a bid to keep money inside the US, but DIDN'T increase government spending in time to stimulate the economy. He started a little project called the Colorado Dam, but by that point he was seen as a failure. Roosevelt then came along and increased government spending, plus increased regulations such as by creating the SEC. Then a war came along that kicked the manufacturing sector into overdrive, creating the world you know today. So you have Hoover, Roosevelt, and technically Hitler to thank for the economic paradise that was the 50s through to Reaganomics.
Learn some f**king history...
treehugger87Aug 25, 2010
With all due respect, your timeline is missing a few things. Immediately before the correction, Hoover cut the top income tax rate from 73% to 24%, a gift to his wealthy donors. This led to an enormous deficit. Hoover and Congress did not increase taxes until 1932, but the increase simply restored taxes to level lower than they had prior to the decrease.
The big mistake that Hoover made that prolonged the Depression - and this is agreed upon by ever reputable economist - was that he did not have the Government spend enough money fast enough. Deficit spending is the way out of a depression.
tsk05Aug 25, 2010
"Hoover cut the top income tax rate from 73% to 24%, a gift to his wealthy donors. This led to an enormous deficit."
http://www.treasurydirect.gov/govt/reports/pd/histdebt/histdebt_histo3.htm
06/30/1932 19,487,002,444.13
06/30/1931 16,801,281,491.71
06/30/1930 16,185,309,831.43
06/29/1929 16,931,088,484.10
06/30/1928 17,604,293,201.43
Not seeing that "huge deficit." Lets compare with FDR:
06/30/1944 201,003,387,221.13
06/30/1943 136,696,090,329.90
06/30/1942 72,422,445,116.22
06/30/1936 33,778,543,493.73
06/29/1935 28,700,892,624.53
06/30/1934 27,053,141,414.48
06/30/1933 22,538,672,560.15Comment is buried, click here to see the rest.
Closed AccountAug 25, 2010
Is it really fair to include 1942-1944 on that list? WW2 was a massive, justified expense.
mysticaloneAug 25, 2010
OMG HE THANKED HITLER. HITLER IS FINALLY GOOD!
caferrellAug 25, 2010
There are no adults in the group. No one is willing to say that for the economy to come around, the malinvestment has to be forced out of the system. Overinflated home prices still have a long way to fall before the markets will operate as they should. Propping things up just lengthens the period of pain.
The Fed should do the exact opposite of what its doing. It should force corrections rather than trying to paint over the complete dislocation of price and demand. The Fed should cut off easy money and force a correction. That will put us into a depression ala 1920, from which we can recover fully and rapidly, in under two years. But what the government is doing now will assure years of pain leading to a monetary crisis.
We need to take our medicine now, while there are still some savings, while people are still prepared to take it. Rising interest rates are the answer. Creative Destruction.
It may force either a devaluation of the dollar or a partial default on the national debt, but that is going to happen anyway. If we wait it will be worse.
catalysisAug 25, 2010
I don't think you fully understand the ramifications of a deflationary spiral depression. You are talking about an economy that would not recover in our lifetime.
richmomzAug 25, 2010
I think it's you that doesn't see the grim truth here. The damage has already been done - the only question is whether we want to suffer the pain now or put it off until later and suffer even more. We've been kicking this can down the road for awhile now, that's what got us into this mess in the first place.
shigAug 26, 2010
It's quite impossible to understand the ramifications of an event that has never occurred in history.
bille3Aug 25, 2010
You are right Chris, no adults. Only whiny children still crying for their fair share from nanny government. Just what got us here.
NoFedAuditAug 25, 2010
I guess they just forgot to tell folks about the depression. I took my wife to Cape May NJ for our wedding anniversary and the place was packed.
Nothing in Cape May is cheap The mansion we stayed at was booked solid at $200-$400+ a night
http://www.southernmansion.com/
People were buying $20 t-shirts by the armful. I think the shirt my wife bought says it all
A plain t-shirt inscribed with the words "LIFE DOESN'T SUCK IN CAPE MAY"
$20 a person carriage rides with folks standing in line
http://www.capemaycarriage.com/
The place I normally stay during the summer "No Vacancy"
http://www.summerstationhotel.com/
Whale watching boat rides sold out. Everyone needs to go on a whale watching trip during a depression, right?
ANYONE WHO THINKS WE ARE IN A DEPRESSION NEEDS A REALITY CHECK. UNLESS YOU LIVE IN DETROIT. THEN YOU ARE CORRECT!Comment is buried, click here to see the rest.
nolibrariansAug 25, 2010
If you didn't have a job, never left your mother's basement, and believed everything you saw on digg then you'd think we were in a Depression too! Give these kids a break son! Comment is buried, click here to see the rest.
NoFedAuditAug 25, 2010
Congratulations, you just describe the life of a Libertarian.
caferrellAug 25, 2010
Do you realize that the same was true in 1935? That some people did fine and vacationed in comfort at Cape May? And Hilton Head and Sarasota etc.
My grandparents took a cruise around the world in the 1930s. So does that mean that there was no Great Depression?
UphemismAug 25, 2010
"Do you realize "
No, he doesn't.
nolibrariansAug 25, 2010
We had a recession but nothing worse than the 1970s. Take a break from your apocalyptic fantasies and take a look around the real world son!
UphemismAug 25, 2010
NoLIb's, I'd love to but it is better if I keep my eyes on the ground, what with all the people sleeping on the streets after losing their homes....
Say, are you Jim Cramer? You seem to be about as accurate, and only slightly less annoying.
Comment is buried, click here to see the rest.
ice1874193Aug 25, 2010
I think you mean atlantic. What cruise ship was sailing around the world during the depression?
donotclickjimAug 25, 2010
As the old saying goes: "If your neighbor loses his job, it's a recession. If you lose yours, its a depression."
eastwood24Aug 25, 2010
Tell that to the 40+ million on food stamps. Your right the few rich at the top have become wealthier during this depression. The bottom 95% have not. My pay has been cut twice and hours reduced.
cyberdorkAug 25, 2010
Would great, I love the QIDs and I don't live in the US, LOL.
timthetaxmanAug 25, 2010
When you reward failure and don’t allow the market to work, resources will be misallocated creating longer term problems.
Capitalism is a profit AND loss system. You cannot privatize the profits and socialize the losses and expect the system to remain efficient.
lantzaAug 25, 2010
Front page with ~50 diggs eh?
whitegripesAug 25, 2010
I'm not saying this isn't true but this comes from the same people that said things weren't that bad right before the big collapse.
aladinsaneAug 25, 2010
Yeah, you have to love how Republicans are insisting that the answer to our problems is a return to the policies that caused the problems in the first place. Every single Republican talking point can be boiled down to this: "OMG! The Democrats aren't fixing the problems we caused fast enough! Put us back in control again, so we can continue doing making the problem worse!"
Closed AccountAug 25, 2010
And the idiots couldn't see that by doing all this frivolous spending, they were mocking the economy! And they made the economy very angry. We're all feeling the economy's vengeance because of materialistic heathens who did stupid things with their money. Do you understand, son? -Randy Marsh-
james188fosterAug 25, 2010
I read zerohedge everyday. I follow Max Kesier, Nouriel Roubini etc. Here in England we are bankrupt. Unlike the US we don't have the reserve currency. If the BofE thinks that printing money (QE) is the way out of this then we will just get 30%, 50% inflation, maybe even hyper inflation.
We just have to swallow the medicine. That means no growth over the next 10 or 20 years and we can either pay off the debt. Or we can just default.
eastwood24Aug 25, 2010
zerohedge is a daily read for me too. The Baseline Senerio by MIT Professor Simon Johnson is also a well thought out and suprisingly candid blog.
richmomzAug 25, 2010
Don't worry, you'll soon be given a "way out" - you'll just have to abandon your currency for the new global one, that's all! /s
topcat5Aug 25, 2010
Dugg for zerohedge
coloneljessupAug 25, 2010
Here we go with the digg.com economic professors....................
UphemismAug 25, 2010
Don't have to be a econ professor to know that if you spend more than you earn - you are in big, BIG, trouble.
In fact, most people learn this within a few years of being on their own. Why governments can't learn this, or rather, why the citizens allow the governments to bribe them with their own money, is a much more problematic issue.
tsk05Aug 25, 2010
"why the citizens allow the governments to bribe them with their own money, is a much more problematic issue."
It's mostly because they think it's the rich people's money. That's also why they support Obama's healthcare bill.
logosx1Aug 25, 2010
If the government is spending my money, I have a right to participate in deciding how it's spent. Cast your own lot with the "experts" who dragged us into this.
richmomzAug 25, 2010
So you're saying you have more faith in our "real" economic experts who got us into this mess, and completely failed to predict our current crisis? Any thinking person would question the status quo after what we've been through.Comment is buried, click here to see the rest.
jj9nerAug 25, 2010
Tell us something we don't know.
protodonAug 25, 2010
well this so-called depression is a lot better than the last one, or is that due to inflation?
UphemismAug 25, 2010
This one hasn't hit yet. It is being pushed further and further back. If we had dealt with it decades ago when people first started to notice the problem, it would have been a minor blip. But no one wanted to, it was too easy to push it back, put more on credit, fix one bursting bubble with the advent of a new bubble, and so on and so forth until now, we are at a point where when this breaks, it will be bad...
I suggest you see if you can find some examples of what happens to a country when the IMF has to step in... it makes even the most vicious, heartless right-wing cuts look like manna from the gods, when compared to what the IMF will impose.
Ohh well, not like we weren't warned though... However, hopefully those statists that helped, and promoted this along get turned into pinatas for their hand in this.
butterbeeAug 25, 2010
Bailing out the banks pushed warped the system. Propping up the housing warped the system (you'd think we'd have learned this one first). Expanding government payrolls pushed has warped the system. All that and the bottom is still further down. WTG guys!
The best answer was to have exposed the risk immediately through open information and consistent policy. That's been the historical magic of the US economy.
Unfortunately, markets/investors/entrepreneurs STILL DON'T KNOW what the ACTUAL RISK is in any of these sectors due to government meddling/masking. Now we can add health care as another screwed up sector!
There would have been a severe crash had some banks failed. House prices would have fallen faster without the subsidies. Unemployment numbers would have gone up faster with Uncle Sam highering them all. But in the end, the system would be trusted, risk and true value would have been exposed quickly and we'd have already been having a much healthier recovery.
All these bad policy decisions were made by a scrambling executive branch with the foremost objective to show good "numbers" for as long as possible. Now we're all just limping along still heading to the bottom, still masking risk, not knowing what anything is actually worth. WTG. Your asscovering attempts have prolonged the slump!
citizenplusplusAug 25, 2010
Endless war, rampant pollution, privatized healthcare, and the great divide between rich and poor is destroying the middle class.
It is time for America's labor force to unionize, kick out management, and build the things this country really needs.
No more yachts and aircraft carriers. We the people need to go back to work building renewable energy, high speed rail, and electric cars.
butterbeeAug 25, 2010
Only old-timey metal things for you, by gummy!
h8f8kesAug 25, 2010
Because the masses do not want luxury goods or quality cars but would prefer to have expensive electricity and to walk 12 blocks to the subway station?
citizenplusplusAug 25, 2010
The masses want clean and secure: air and food and heat and homes, and want to live beyond the age of 50 before ravenous cancers and diabetes infect them.Comment is buried, click here to see the rest.
h8f8kesAug 25, 2010
"Man's a party animal. If he is doing okay nothing else matters. That's not going to change." - Dr. Quinn Burchenal, Red Planet
duncan202Aug 25, 2010
So you're going to decide what people need?
bluto36Aug 25, 2010
that is the "progressive" way
drmangrumAug 25, 2010
Eventually, common sense will win out. You can't spend your way out of debt. Keynesian economics is meant to be a crutch to prevent a collapse, not a status quo; we *have* to get back to logical spending plans and smart taxation. Income driven taxation is doomed to failure.
The economy thrives when there is just enough regulation to keep the wolves at bay, but not so much regulation and government props that it hampers the entrepreneur from starting a business. I really wish liberals would look into what it takes to start a small business and then look at how much they have to pay in taxes. The average small businessman works 10-14 hours a day and can easily have 55% of their income taken by the government before they can pay their suppliers and employees.
Want to fix the economy?
-Move the tax structure from income-based to consumption-based, like it was prior to the 16th amendment.
-Completely overhaul federal business regulations. The regulations should make sense and be vague enough that the courts can make the case-by-case determinations (as designed by the Constitution) of violation.
butterbeeAug 25, 2010
I believe.
strad2Aug 25, 2010
I don't know why being "liberal" has to be mean that you support spending wildly beyond your means. I'm liberal in every way that counts, and am in total control of my finances and am an aggressive saver. We (wife and I) also own a small business, and will (hopefully) be starting another in the next couple of years.
Both parties spend like drunken sailors, and everyone agrees this needs to change. A liberal might just prefer to decrease military funding and not invade countries for no reason, rather than, say, drastically cutting environmental initiatives. In truth, both will need to happen - the difference is only in the preference of severities.
drmangrumAug 25, 2010
Yes, both parties to spend needlessly, and it needs to stop. However, liberals are the ones that try to "spread the wealth." Their economic policies (as evidenced by Obama and the democratic congress) are killing business and free enterprise.
You don't give the poor a better standard of living by spreading the wealth, you give them a better standard of living by creating wealth. You create an environment that rewards inventiveness, innovation, and determination. Liberal economics rewards laziness and creates slaves to the system and acts as a disincentive.
strad2Aug 25, 2010
I don't agree with your assessment at all. The income gap is at a modern historically high level, and continues to grow. Any initiative to "spread the wealth" (by Obama or others) must therefore be viewed as a complete failure. On the contrary, we are now enjoying incredibly massive income disparities - trickle down enthusiasts must be thrilled... and yet, look at the state of things.
Which policies specifically did Obama implement that are killing business and free enterprise, and how did he accomplish this massive feat so quickly? Any commentary on the state of the economy that he inherited when he took office? I seem to have a very different memory than you.
dave55manAug 25, 2010
I don't think you know how business economics work. First off no business has to pay income tax unless they make a profit. And then that income tax only taxes the profit that is made. Profit is of course income less all the expenses needed to run a business, along with interest rates on loans and such. An income based taxation system allows the government to have the rich pay more and the poor pay less. It works quite well.
The only problem right now is that the government has been reducing taxes and increasing expenses for the past few administrations. This needs to stop right now if we want to bail ourselves out of the giant national debt we've collected. Taxes need to be raised in order for the government to remain functional.
drmangrumAug 25, 2010
I don't think you know what you're talking about.
If a business has no profit, then it goes under. Ergo, successful businesses pay a s**tload of money in taxes. Most of my family has run their own businesses, and all of them say the same thing: they're taxed way too heavily.
andurilAug 25, 2010
I'll remind you the source of depression:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iW5qKYfqALE#t=1m28s
butterbeeAug 25, 2010
Ooof! - Right in the Fannie.
gsydiggerAug 25, 2010
only reason we're in a depression is because of the greedy boomers
richmomzAug 25, 2010
This has been obvious for a while now, but the blind denial of our so called "experts" continues to amuse me. Sadly, their refusal to accept reality also impedes any effort to do something about the problem.
quarandoAug 25, 2010
Any system that leads to substantial concentration of capital in the hands of the few is doomed to fail. The scary thing is that Keynesian economics was designed to address the major failing of the more laissez faire system of the 19th century. Now that the Keynesian system is faltering, people think the problem is that the economy isn't laissez faire enough.
There has been this massive propaganda push over the last 30 years to convince people that the economy works best when democracy is pushed aside and the powerful are allowed free reign to bend the system to their needs. So now as we consider where to go from here, we have these lunatic tea partiers screaming to give the powerful more power and eliminate the aspects of government that have actually been of some value in sustaining the middle class.
richmomzAug 25, 2010
"So now as we consider where to go from here, we have these lunatic tea partiers screaming to give the powerful more power..."
Was digging your comment until I got to this part. The tea party isn't a monolithic movement and most of the anger is directed at the corrupt elite in *both* the government and the private sector (recall that many were against the banker bailouts as well). Regulation is fine - the problem is that most of it isn't being directed where its supposed to be.
We've got government agents going after small businesses over a $0.04 cent tax debt while the Federal Reserve is handing out trillions of dollars to God knows who with no Congressional oversight. The reason? Our regulatory system is run by the very people they're supposed to be regulating. Just look at the US Treasury department - it's practically a subsidiary of Goldman Sachs now. The SEC? Bernie Madoff founded the freaking NASDAQ - they didn't want to go after their own! The whole system is a joke.
charlie6969Aug 25, 2010
http://sociology.ucsc.edu/whorulesamerica/power/wealth.htm
Can we all agree that money equals power?
America's wealth is finite and looking at the distribution of it exemplefies what is wrong with our country.
It's not about TAKING from the rich to give to the (working) poor and the poor, It's about making the rules fair enough that the poor at least has a CHANCE to make enough to live in.
Yes, it is wealth redistribution, but it is not Socialism and it is not wrong. It is making sure that all of Americans get a fair shake at life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.
I'm sorry, but when the richest 20% own/control 85% of all of America's wealth and the rest of us get to split 15% of the total wealth, then we are heading into a serf-type society.
Did you get that? 80% of our population has to make do with 15% of all wealth....while the richest 20% make do with the vast majority of our Nation's money. It isn't Socialism to correct an OBVIOUS misalignment of financial resources.
Most Liberals and Conservatives are, believe it or not, on the same side, on some things. This should be one of them.
http://sociology.ucsc.edu/whorulesamerica/power/wealth.htm
yurmutha412Aug 25, 2010
Wealth is an abstract measurement. Most of what people call wealth is a bunch of stock certificates. That's what those wealthy people are mainly holding. For some reason, Democrats have a problem dealing with this concept. The wealthy people started companies which did well and the shares increased in value. If they sold them all off, the stock price would nose dive and they wouldn't be wealthy. They can sell in small quantities, but the business they own better make a profit because the share price will drop dramatically if it doesn't. Warren Buffet is one of the richest men in America and he lives in the same house he's been living in for the last 30 years or something. Plays bridge on the weekend, and doesn't live that differently than most middle income people. What happens when you try to tax capital gains (the wealthy). They sell even fewer of their stocks. The GDP drops. Everyone lives in even more hardship.
curunirAug 25, 2010
404
"It's not about TAKING ... Yes, it is wealth redistribution..."
What are you talking about? I agree with your assessment of the problem (or at least the symptoms), but it is not one the government can fix through the IRS - it can only be fixed by limiting the power and size of government, ending corporate welfare and protectionism, reforming patent and copyright, ending the Federal Reserve's secrecy and manipulation of the money supply, and repealing the excessive regulation that protects the big corporations from upstart competition.
seldon21Aug 25, 2010
Answers:
Stop and respond with solutions not more bitching!
Create a GOV(to)PRVT company(ies) to develop solar, power storage on the scale not seen since the depression or WWII. Take a greater look at what will move us forward as a people and not individuals. Start building high-speed rail, power generation plants, and rework our transportation system to align ourselves for now and the future. Install solar on every home in the USA and rebuild the communication, power infrastructures. Clean up unused parts of cities, suggested by Detroit.
Look we know you have worked hard all your life. I have too. It is time to realize that it is going to suck for a while and that you may have to work harder longer but this is the direction we are going.
Whenever someone talks like an adult to "the people" they/we react and vote in the other party! To allow them to continue this BS. Those in power are there to stay in power. Not one of these a$$holes has the answer, they continue to draw a paycheck from the government and keep the Rube Goldberg economy going.
Where / who is leading us? Boehner said, yesterday that we need to fire all of those financial people. I agree we need to shake things up. Starting with Boehner....!!!
Closed AccountAug 25, 2010
Anybody who pins this on Obama has been ignoring the last 35 years.
This has been coming for a long time, starting with Nixon and the corporatist explosion. Then Reagan made it standard to spend ourselves silly and into the ground. Clinton came along and fixed things a little bit, but the corporatism still gnawed down at our economic security. Bush the Second cut taxes to ludicrously low levels and spent more than any president can on absolutely nothing and sealed our fate.
Obama is doing what he can to make sure we don't tank completely. You might disagree with it, but at least one extremely large school of economic philosophy agrees with what he is trying to do. It's going to take taxes *and* investment to get us out of this. The GOP just wants to cut spending as though that's some magic bullet that wll
Closed AccountAug 25, 2010
of course you can't ignore the last 35 years but what obama is doing is deliberately delaying the inevitable. he doesnt want to go down as the president that was in power when 'it' happened so he's doing what every other president has down. sell out to the bankers and do as they command.
esc27Aug 25, 2010
We have an economy that requires consumers (brainwashed by advertising) to purchase over-priced products they don't need (huge houses, electronic gadgets, etc.,) using money they don't have (credit, mortgages) from companies who have spent the last two decades eliminating jobs (automation, outsourcing) and keeping (middle/low class) wages low. The only reason it even worked to begin with is that there was enough magic money (credit, mortgages on houses that "never lose value", tax cuts, etc.) to make up for the inequity (not enough income to buy everything the market sells.)
The magic money is gone and consumers have necessarily scaled back. The powers that be are hoping the system will magically recover back to what it was, and it might, but is that really a recovery? A return to over spending non-existent money?
What we really need are reforms (not just from the government but from business leaders) that improve wages, create jobs, and get more real money to the people so they can purchase needed goods. This means lower executive pay and draining some money out of Wall Street and back into consumer pockets. It may mean shorter hours and more expensive, basic products. But if that comes with higher wages and more jobs, then it is a good thing.
misteratozAug 25, 2010
reasons why this is obvious:
1.) ever go to the grocery store lately? Milk, which used to be $2 a gallon 5 years or so ago in now double that. Packages are getting smaller (see chips ahoy chocolate chip cookies) and prices are getting larger. Inflation is not matched on the payscale though.
2.) Our national debt is 13 trillion dollars, and we're not going to be able to pay it back.
3.) Good Healthcare is really out of reach of most Americans.
4.) Our school system, for per capita spending, are among the worst.
5.) Entitlement programs are GUARANTEED to fail at the current rate.
6.) Manufacturing, IT, etc, is being exported to asian countries.
7.) Unemployment is at 9.5%
etc.
bille3Aug 25, 2010
Not one mention of Carter. I guess the kids love his economics and administration.
seldon21Aug 25, 2010
Here I will mention them. The last time an adult spoke to the American people. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1IlRVy7oZ58
warlok480Aug 25, 2010
We ARE in a Depression...this 'fragile recovery' hasn't affected me...I still have no damn job or money or credit...but know what else? Till we get our national debt under control, this is the new 'normal' -- and its gonna stay like this a long time.
The Pundits and the Academics and the Egg-Heads needs to actually go for a walk and SEE how people are hurting....this economy's been in the dumps ever since Countrywide went under in '07
icexeAug 25, 2010
You're on the Internet, using a computer that relies on electricity. Obviously you can afford these things. In a Depression, you'd be out on the streets standing in a soup line wearing nothing but some close made out of used canvas and a rope for a belt. So quit your whining.
aladinsaneAug 25, 2010
Nothing quite as amusing as a bunch of privileged teenage idiots sitting around on their expensive computers, trying to tell the rest of the Nation that our current economic situation is comparable to the Dustbowl of the Great Depression. You children have never known actual hardship. You have never known Want or Hunger. You're just a bunch of bored jackasses, half of whom desperately want to attack the Nation of their birth because we dared elect a Black Man as President.
waiting2awakeAug 25, 2010
While they may be all the things you say, that still doesn't discount their argument. Also, if your first premise is correct, they are young kids, then your second premise is complete hypocrisy, as it was the young people that swept Obama into office, and thus are not angry about him being in...
caferrellAug 27, 2010
Hey brother, Digg is Dead. Come over to the light, it appears that you already have an account
http://www.reddit.com/user/waiting2awake/
inactiveuserAug 25, 2010
And America spins out on the corner at lap 20, hits a tree, sideswipes a woman with a torch and a man with a tall hat . Republicans yell accelerator while Democrats steer towards the cliff, meanwhile there is no rubber left on the wheels and the fuel has just about run out.
dizavinAug 25, 2010
holy crap, all these comments are written by idiots.
depression? are you kidding me?! how many of you are living independently? how many of you can afford to GO to school? do you have a car? how about a flat screen TV? or an xbox? or an account with NetFlix? or how about using your smartphones? or watching cable?
having the cash to buy ANY of that s**t means you are NOT in a depression. read up on the 20's & 30's sometime and see what a depression is really like. are you selling everything you own? are you living in a house with 8 other family members? are you having kids just so you can get more cash from tax breaks? are you rationing food?
jesus christ, you guys.
nygenxerAug 25, 2010
We have been in a depression for over a year now. Even Dr. Krugman declared it only a few weeks ago. It's taken the rich elite of this country about forty years to steal all the wealth earned by the middle class during 1945 - 1970 with four decades of stagnant wages and three of trickle-down bullsh*t.
Middle class people with money get uppity: they question the government and corporations, refuse the draft, and fight for the rights of the oppressed whereas people who are broke are scared and easier to control and manipulate. You see the reaction start in the Vietnam War; why would the government pay to educate the middle class so that their kids are smart enough to figure out what's going on?
George Carlin says it best.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=acLW1vFO-2Q&feature=related
yeghiaAug 26, 2010
This account has been closed by the user
ren1999Aug 29, 2010
The economy will remain in a depression as long as there are unemployed people with no spending power to stimulate the economy.
The economy will remain in a depression as long as everyone gets paid $14.00 an hour regardless of their skills, education and experience.
The economy will remain in a depression as long as bankers are appointed to political office and kill regulation of banks.
The economy will remain in a depression as long as there is a fake Federal Reserve Bank and a Political Lobby which is just legal bribery.
So, put everybody to work who wants a job even if it is picking up cigarettes or directing traffic so they can buy and lift the economy.
Start raising people's salaries so they can buy more and lift the economy.
Start regulating banks so that they don't cheat people out of their money through credit card scams, mortgage scams, and daisy chain scams where banks buy their own products to falsely raise demand.
End the Federal Reserve Bank scam and create a true bank where the interest from our taxes reduces our debts.
End the Political Lobby where lobbyists get political power for corporations and executives who do not care about the people.
ren1999Aug 29, 2010
I agree that the depression of today isn't as harsh as the depression then.
But let us look at how the depression actually affects most people.
People may live away from their parents but they most likely have 2 or 3 roommates to split the rent and bills.
That means they have an internet account split between all roommates.
Most are no longer buying books, music, video games, or renting videos. Nor are they going to the movies. Their probably pirating.
Gaming is at an all time low. Just because you have an X-Box doesn't mean everyone does.
Probably the single greatest expense of a young person is their smart-phone.
People are also not buying new cars.
All in all, I agree that this isn't a depression. But remember that there are many unemployed Americans. Perhaps they are losing what little they had above.
It is becoming a depression.
cwilsonstSep 28, 2010
What we experienced in the last decade was not economic growth, we actually had "artificial prosperity" created through credit expansion, thanks to the Central Bank aka the Federal Reserve. http://www.lenwilson.com Click Here to View Our Video!