Users who Dugg This
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ReginaRodriguezAug 3, 2010
duuu
lucas123Aug 3, 2010
It's not about being "smart" enough. It's about being rich enough. Electric cars cost far more than gasoline cars, a cost that does not bring a return on investment even over the life of the car. Once the prices come down as mass production ramps up, more people will buy them.
tyg10Aug 3, 2010
"It's not about being "smart" enough. It's about being rich enough."
Yes, I agree!!!
blinker1315Aug 3, 2010
I'm smelling Edsel here. But I agree with Lucas that it's a matter of cost. Sure, a lot of affluent people will buy and drive them (mostly with good intentions; for some just the latest toy), but there won't be enough to change the industry. In fact, since I was a kid I've imagined that a century from now people will look back at this time, and all the auto fatalities, and think, "These people were primitive!"
stoanhartAug 3, 2010
That's what the "Thumbs Up" button is for - it doesn't require a comment.
faithclubdotnetAug 4, 2010
I agree with your agreeing.
darkmatter911Aug 4, 2010
It is not just about being rich enough to afford one it is also having the attitude that cars are nothing more than a means to get from point A to point B. Some of us want to enjoy our time behind the wheel and drive a car that makes us smile.
boneheadfarkerAug 4, 2010
A Tesla Roadster would make me smile. An Electric Lightning GT would make me smile. But only a Jeep can bring forth maniacal laughter and loud bellows of "WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!". I would love to see an electric Jeep one day though. That is once they can safely shield the batteries and cables from water and random invisible boulders, because you don't want a short when you're up to your nipples in a lake...
zenith251Aug 4, 2010
Jeep? Weeeee? When?
fordsvt1Aug 8, 2010
^I assume you've never gone off-roading?
Closed AccountAug 4, 2010
Rich people think they've got a monopoly on being smart, even though there are a lot more poor people who are smart than there are rich people... because there are infinitely more poor people.
Intelligence doesn't always bring you money. It takes money to make money, so when you have a genius who has wound up homeless it's unlikely they pull their way out (particularly since nobody is hiring, and nobody hires homeless people). Rich people might think they're smarter, because they have a shiny $500,000 piece of paper from their ivy-league university of choice, but I can show you people who are currently attending community college (because of their poverty, not because they're dumb) who are smarter people who have gone to Harvard.Comment is buried, click here to see the rest.
fungowskiAug 4, 2010
I'll explain where you're going wrong in your thinking. People CAN go from poor to not poor, but it has less to with raw intelligence and more to do with the willingness to work hard. At least at the start. How can a poor person get the start-up funds he needs? Triple your salary and save the leftovers. How the hell do I triple my salary? Work three jobs, kid.
If you just winced at that prospect, you will most likely always be poor. Sure it will be a s**tty 2 years or so but like shawshank redemption you have to climb through the s**t to get to freedom. Now take that to the bank, mother f**ker!
Closed AccountAug 4, 2010
That'd be all well and good if it weren't for there being literally 0 jobs out there. s**t, even Wal-Mart isn't hiring right now. If I wanted to work 3 jobs (which would be amazing at the moment) I would have to move somewhere where employees are in demand.Comment is buried, click here to see the rest.
fungowskiAug 4, 2010
"...I would have to move somewhere where employees are in demand." Well, uh, yeah. I didn't think that needed saying but that's a big part of it. Now get your ass to Pittsburgh and start pissing motivation!
gravityplanxAug 4, 2010
So in order to get a job... you have to.... DO SOMETHING???
It's just too much. Why don't you sit down while I bring you some hot cocoa. My little motivated man, you!
Closed AccountAug 4, 2010
Why the f**k are you attacking me? Yes, I'm 20. Yes, I'm still in school. Yes, I don't have a job and I'm trying like hell to get one. So why do you have to talk down to me like I'm some sort of retarded kid?
You guys look like f**king bullies right now.
bombulaAug 4, 2010
You hear it every goddamn time: if you're poor, you're just lazy.
Tell that to the millions of girls in sub-Saharan Africa who walk 5 miles one way for a bucket of clean water. Tell that to the millions of farmers in Asia who work 10 hours a day ankle-deep in rice paddies fertilized with human s**t.
Tell that to the millions of Americans who lost their jobs when all those "hard working" pricks on Wall Street f**ked our country in the ass.
You think anyone wants to be f**king poor? Wake the f**k up, junior. There isn't one person in a million who wouldn't work 60 hours a week for $150k/year. The problem is simple: there aren't enough f**king $150k/year jobs.
Jesus Christ, you privileged little pricks with your Horatio Alger "just work hard" platitudes make me want to throw up in my mouth. If you had any f**king idea what it was like to be truly poor you wouldn't embarrass yourself with this kind of "let them eat cake" bulls**t.
spinozaqAug 4, 2010
As with everything in the real world, both extremes are incorrect. There are of course lots and lots of people that work very hard, and either through lack of opportunity or lack of luck, never really crawl out of poverty. ( Or never become "more" weathy. ) There are of course lots and lots of people that don't ever "try" to work hard at all, and either live off family members, or the system, or both.
Each situation has its own details. Don't judge people until you know them.
jhw539Aug 4, 2010
After the federal incentive, the Leaf is $25k. That's not a cheap car, but it's not an expensive one either. The Honda Accord has a MSRP sticker of $26.8k.
These aren't the first wave Tesla Roadsters or even EV-1s. They've already achieved impressive cost reductions, brought in some part by the already well under way production ramp up of many of the components they share in common with hybrids.
slackdragonAug 4, 2010
And where does the government get the money to supply these purchase incentives? Taxes? From your wallet? Sounds like you're going to be paying for these electric cars one way or another whether you want one or not.
spinozaqAug 4, 2010
The tax incentives are already in place. No use bitching about them at this point. Go take a look at what kind of "tax breaks" are given to oil companies. Next go look up how much of your federal taxes goes to assuring the acquisition of oil around the world. Now... is a few thousand bucks in a tax credit to push electric car technology really that bad?
If you really don't need a long range car, or are ok with renting for the occasional long trip. The leaf will have a pretty good fuel savings over it's life. 12,000 miles a year at $3 a gallon in a 30mpg car is $1200 bucks. Electricity for the leaf will be about $300 bucks. So about a grand a year in savings. Not bad! So that $25,000 dollar car just became a $20,000 car with 5 years of use.
therealmisterdAug 4, 2010
either way, there are priced for the well off, not the average.
fordsvt1Aug 8, 2010
The leaf is a compact 5 door hatchback, not a mid-size sedan. Compare it to something like a Ford Focus that you can buy for between $15k and $20k fully loaded.
tgc1Aug 4, 2010
Oh right, 'cause no car on the market costs 40k or more. *eye roll*
They're not that expensive man. Seriously.
spinozaqAug 4, 2010
I don't know why your getting dug down. 41k minus the tax credit and you're into "kind of nice luxury" car range. If everyone bought cars for the gas savings everyone would buy an echo, or an aveo.... Most people pay for features, safety, and "cool" things. I view a 400 pound battery as a pretty interesting feature!Comment is buried, click here to see the rest.
min3matAug 4, 2010
But hey you don't have $40k to burn and wouldn't know wtf to do with it if you had it. I imagine you'd see a 15k/year personal trainer/nutritionist a good investment. Although I hope that people like you don't manage to get loaded I realised..there's a good reason you won't..you are a moron.Comment is buried, click here to see the rest.
spinozaqAug 4, 2010
Really? You're going to attack my character for that? A bit sad. I certainly have plenty of income to go buy a Volt, and probably will in the next few years. The last car I bought was a brand new GM for $25,000 in 2003. I only purchased new because of 0% interest. I don't like paying interest on non-income producing investments. The car is getting a bit old now, so I'll be in the market for something new.
The big benefit I see for cars like the Volt is in reducing city air pollution. I own a duplex on a fairly busy street in the city. All the furniture and tables on the porch build up a layer of fine black dust weekly from the buses and cars. It's rather disturbing really.
In the long term battery costs should come down and make the vehicles far more compelling to all buyers.
slackdragonAug 4, 2010
Every review of the Volt I've read says basically the same thing. It's a $40k+ car with the look and feel of $12k craftsmanship. The interiors are cheap and cramped. These are not the kinds of selling points that garner interest or generates sales.
spinozaqAug 4, 2010
I'm going to need some review citations. The ones I'm seeing are quite positive. You just sound pissed off at the world, honestly... get some help.
http://consumerist.com/2010/06/consumer-reports-tests-chevy-volt.html
Closed AccountAug 4, 2010
@SpinozaQ: How does the government afford to give "tax credits"? Where does that money come from?
spinozaqAug 4, 2010
Same way they afford the wars in the middle east and farm subsidies. Out of my pocket! I just figure I might as well get my electric car prize for paying hundreds of thousands of dollars in taxes over the last decade.
Do you think they could put in the keys in a cracker jack box and surprise me?
cybrguyAug 4, 2010
+ replace the batteries every 5 years for an extra 5000-10000 bucks
angryfirelordAug 4, 2010
In addition, you also have to factor in replacing the battery, which is going to wear out over the charge and discharge cycles. Plus, batteries require a lot of energy to make, so in my opinion, electric cars aren't really that green to begin with since more of the pollution and CO2 emissions is done on the production end.
If you want to be green, buy a used car. If you don't care about safety features, you can still find some Geo Metros out there that will give you 50+ MPG.
bipolarruledoutAug 4, 2010
Electric cars are less complicated and probably have a lower cost of ownership.
spinozaqAug 4, 2010
That is "true".... You do end up being more green buying a small car, or a used car. However, we all can't buy used cars forever. There are always people with money who _will_ buy new cars. What would you rather have the research part of the revenue at GM go to? Battery and electric technology that is efficient and source diverse... or the next generation V24 engine in the Super Tahoe that gets 2 gallons to the mile with a car seat as cargo....
macintoshreaderAug 4, 2010
The battery packs on both the Nissan LEAF and Chevy Volt have an 8-year/100,000 warranty...
Closed AccountAug 4, 2010
@bipolarruledout: So I can work on my EV in my garage? Granted most people don't, but I do ALL the service and work on all of my vehicles. I have replaced engines and transmissions. You telling me I'll be able to replace the electric motor, batteries, etc. all by my lonesome? I can just run to Napa and pick up the parts I need once the car is out of warranty? Will this happen in the next 40 years?
balthisarAug 4, 2010
Well, not necessarily "rich" -- we're not talking Rolls Royce, here.
But also look at it this way (ignoring tax incentives): Taurus SHO, or Chevy Volt?
It's not just about having the money, it's about having the money and being willing to sacrifice. Hopefully, though, in the next couple of years we'll only be face with this kind of question:
Focus, or Focus Plug-In?
swordedgeAug 4, 2010
Live in apartment. How am I supposed to charge it?
spinozaqAug 5, 2010
Find an extremely progressive landlord like me that is going to install charging ports in the back parking lot in the next few years because they are going to get a Volt?
graminalAug 7, 2010
Right, since landlords like that are everywhere.
thoughtsonthisAug 3, 2010
Oh those electric bills! And believe me, electric rates will go up.
jhw539Aug 4, 2010
No kidding - because gas prices are going to be stable or even dropping in the future it's stupid to go to electricity just because it is a quarter the cost per mile at the moment.
hutch1973Aug 4, 2010
People do overlook the basics of our economy, supply and demand. As the demand goes up for electricity, so will the price. I'm tired of 'fake' green. How do we fix cars... electricity. How so we make 'green' home heating...geothermal=electricity. Is this innovation? I predict Geothermal will disappear in residential applications within 5 years, electric cars will never catch on.
spinozaqAug 4, 2010
Electricity will expand if needed. it's a great source diverse energy market, with healthy competition. How is that _not_ where you want your energy to come from? You'd rather have it be OPEC? In every city in the US there are at least 3 different types of electrical generation moving around the local grid. If the demand goes up, there will be new investment for supply.
Geothermal == getting more heat moved that energy you put in.... Air Conditioners do it nicely for cooling. Take a look at the rating on your Air Conditioner... Mine says 8000 BTU per hour and 800 watts..... WHAT??? but but but... 8000 BTU per hour is equal to nearly 2350 watts!!! How can that be..... it must be magic....
dumb ass. go get my fries.
hutch1973Aug 4, 2010
Electricity will expand, and then cost more...supply/demand. Perhaps I could have been clearer, I am not pro OPEC, I just don't believe we have the solution yet and don't like to see so much 'innovation' being directed at one energy source with a flawed delivery grid.
I probably shouldn't question your 'expertise' on geothermal when you are referencing the power consumption of your $200 window air conditioning unit. I'll also assume you have never had to explain to a homeowner that the $700 electric bill they got for a month using their 'green technology' is 'about right'.
You should skip the fries. Save up, you can get this stuff they call 'central air', where EVERY room is 76 degrees with a 40% relative humidity, not just your living room. Give you props for sleeping on the couch every night though.
thudAug 4, 2010
"Electricity will expand if needed."
Tell that to California.
nevermiss1Aug 4, 2010
Only if manufacturers are smart enough to lower the prices
jabbrwockeyAug 4, 2010
Implying intelligence is required to purchase an electric car.
mcquittyAug 4, 2010
I was thinking arrogance. I mean, look at the title: "Are Consumers Smart Enough to Buy Electric Cars?"
Let's face it, electric will work for some people and not others. But to assume that someone wouldn't buy it because they aren't smart enough? Wow.
mizuhochanAug 4, 2010
>Implying implications.
charlietunaAug 4, 2010
What's the towing capacity?
Not everyone drives a grocery-getter.
slackdragonAug 4, 2010
Those STUPID individuals! With all their individual needs... damn them! If only everyone were absolutely the same, or could put the needs of the many ahead of their own selfish desires, we could have a Utopian society!
mcquittyAug 4, 2010
True. My wife drives a crossover and has 3 children with her much of the time. I drive a diesel for towing. Now, I don't tow very often but when I do, I need that towing capacity.
Of course, I would prefer the Jetta TDI for a daily driver. Great mileage and fun to drive.
And for the record, I don't think any of the current crop of electric cars (or those announced) would work for me. My work issue is commuting. It is 38 miles for me to make it to the airport. Then I have to worry about charging it as it sits for 1-5 days at the airport? Then, if I drive to customers, I could easily put 100+ miles on a day. Where am I going to charge up? Carry a very long electric cord?
Granted, the Volt gets around this issue but then I am driving on gas half the time I drive it... so, what's the point?
And for the family car, we need something that fits 2 children in car/booster seats and a teenager and two adults. Yep, that rules out most of those for when it would make most sense. My wife drives the kids to school, runs to the store and rarely puts more than 75 miles on the car at a time (unless we are doing a road trip). But the size doesn't work unless I want it as a third car.
These are the issues the manufacturers are dealing with. Electric car for a single person or couple who doesn't venture much out of their 20 mile radius, great! But, it doesn't address a large percentage of the American populace.
araytaAug 4, 2010
To be fair, the person who posted this renamed the article. It is actually titled, "Selling Electric Cars Requires Plugged-In Drivers."
sidioooAug 4, 2010
put an "i" in front of it and an Apple picture and sure
prolianceAug 4, 2010
That's a loaded question. It assumes anyone who doesn't want to own a car that only goes 20 miles before you have to turn around to make it back to the charger is stupid.
speedsteamboatAug 4, 2010
Except that doesn't accurately describe this generation of electrics at all.
angryguy2009Aug 4, 2010
It describes the Chevy Volt if you don't want to use the gasoline engine.
zenith251Aug 4, 2010
Heh, and who buried SpeedSteamBoat? Who here thinks that this generation of electric cars actually only go 20 miles before needing a recharge?
Anyone here willing to fess up to being that stupid? Anyone?
bdbrAug 4, 2010
To be fair, he said 20 miles before you need to turn back, not to recharge - 40 miles total (plus a bit just to be sure you make it home).
Of course, that's still wrong - its 40 miles before the engine kicks in on the Volt. 100 miles on the Leaf.
dustblinkAug 4, 2010
You're not reading what he wrote. 20mi before you have to turn back.
http://gm-volt.com/chevy-volt-faqs/
20mi there and back is 40mi, then the hydrocarbon generator kicks on. So if you don't want to use gas you have to keep travel distance within 20 mi.
It seems like an electric car powered by a gas burning generator is the way to go instead of this battery crap which adds weight and takes up space.
zenith251Aug 4, 2010
Indeed dustblink. The other benefit to the electric-generator is that the drivetrain is lighter due to the lack of complexity of previous style hybrids. One more benefit is that it allows the internal combustion engine to work at maximum efficiency at all times. Now that's not to say that the engine will only run at one speed, it won't, but it will run at the leanest possible settings at all times.
araytaAug 4, 2010
Why are you guys calling them "electric car[s] powered by a gas burning generator"? They have a name, they're called "plug-in hybrids."
Now if you'll excuse me, I'm going to go rest in my steel structure that supports a feathery surface for sleeping in . . . I mean, bed.
zenith251Aug 4, 2010
arayta - That is not the term for what the Volt is. There are plenty of "Plug-in hybrid" vehicles on the road around the world that still have a drivetrain that shares an ICE and electric motors.
fooljoeAug 4, 2010
@Zenith: please expound on the "plenty of 'plug-in hybrid' vehicles on the road" that you speak of, because as far as I know, there are exactly 0 (other than homebuilt or other hack-jobs).
yes, the volt is a plug-in hybrid, or even, just a hybrid. in fact it makes a lot more sense to call the volt a hybrid than the current prius, et. al. hybrid implies that a car can drive on 2 or more energy sources, when in fact all current "hybrids" get all their energy from gasoline - just more efficiently.
the only reason GM came up with the EREV nonsense is to distinguish themselves from the already-bastardized "hybrid" term.
fooljoeAug 4, 2010
the fact that you just posted such a wantonly ignorant comment and that (so far) 29 people dugg you is, I fear, a pretty clear answer to the OP's question.
prolianceAug 5, 2010
Your lack of reading comprehension is appalling, your comment is irresponsible and your rush to judgment is childish.
How far does the Volt go on battery power? 40 miles.
If you go more than 20 miles away from the charger you cannot make it back on battery power. What is it that you don't understand?
fooljoeAug 6, 2010
one would think these points are obvious, but here goes anyways:
#1 the article is about electric cars in general, not just the volt. the nissan leaf for example has 100 mile range, the tesla is 200+, etc.
#2 the reason the volt has such a dinky range is because it also has a gas-fired genset, meaning you never "have to turn around to make it back to the charger".
I find it hard to believe that you didn't already know both of these, and yet you ran you chose to make such an obviously false statement as the above anyway. explain.
williemainAug 4, 2010
No, they are not.
superkendallAug 4, 2010
There is nothing more condescending than to think the reason people are not doing what you want is because they are not "smart" enough to see why they should obey your ideas instead of doing what actually works best for them.
chilidogsAug 4, 2010
People do what is not best for them all the time.
fungowskiAug 4, 2010
that's, like, your opinion man
ell0boAug 4, 2010
Ehh, it's generally a byproduct of being liberal, where as conservatives will attack you for your lack of values if you don't think like they do. It's hard for most people to write these days and not come off condescending, the days of unbiased pieces may be dead.Comment is buried, click here to see the rest.
fooljoeAug 4, 2010
the question certainly comes across as off-putting, but that doesn't mean it isn't true. and when you said "doing what actually works best for them" I believe you meant to say "doing what they think works best for them."
as chilidogs pointed out, what people think is best for them and what actually is best for them are often at odds. now, are EVs really what's best for consumers? here are the simple facts:
*Of course if you're a consumer who needs to drive more than about 80 miles a day or needs towing capacity or takes lots of long trips or lives in an apartment, etc. an EV is not for you. But that leaves a hell of a lot of consumers for which an EV is a perfect fit.
*The cost per mile of electricity is a small fraction of the cost per mile of gasoline, and it allows for and accelerates the payback period of home generation (i.e. rooftop solar). And all the money spent on electricity stays close to home rather than being shipped out to the BP's and Ahmadenijads of the world. And the price of electricity has a much more stable outlook than oil.
*Despite all sorts of witless media to the contrary, it's actually more convenient, not less, to plug your car in at home every night and have a full charge in the morning than it is to go out of your way to the gas station once a week or so. It's also more convenient to never have to check any fluids or get an oil change or spark plugs or transmission service etc. because your propulsion system has ONE MOVING PART.
*To those who would say that EVs are just two expensive: The Nissan LEAF costs only $25k after federal rebate, $20k in California, and has an 8 year / 100,000 mile warranty. And this is a 1st generation model, made in small quantities to start. Clearly the price of EVs and their batteries will go nowhere but down if and when production ramps up. Say what you will about government subsidies having something to do with that price, but remember that we're looking at things from the individual consumer's perspective here, and the bottom line is the bottom line.
fooljoeAug 4, 2010
sorry: too, not two.
kinggorillaAug 4, 2010
Are electric cars cheap enough to be bought by consumers?
zenith251Aug 4, 2010
Hardly. The new Nissan Leaf is supposed to lease for something around $33,000 over 3 years. Capability wise it'll do 80-100 miles on a charge, and will max out at around 90-95mph.
What you get for the money is a higher class 5 door hatchback with some nice included features. However, if this is anything like most dedicated hybrid or pure electric cars, it'll be comparatively uncomfortable and loud, due to weight saving body work and low rolling resistance tires.
fordsvt1Aug 8, 2010
The Leaf is the size of a Ford Focus 5-door, how is that not the same class as the Civic? It's not an SUV, it's not a mid-size sedan.
The Accord is bigger than the Leaf in every dimension.
zenith251Aug 8, 2010
...Ok. You are correct, but what does your reply have to do with my post? I think I'm just missing your point, could you elaborate?
jhw539Aug 4, 2010
Read the article. After incentives, the Leaf is going for less than a Honda Accord.
goericAug 4, 2010
The range sucks.
Closed AccountAug 4, 2010
but nowhere near the cost of a Honda civic and nowhere near the range.
jhw539Aug 4, 2010
Yeah the civic is cheaper, so is a bicycle. What's your point? They aren't the same market segment.
I think SUVs are unparkable in the areas I regularly drive; you'd have to pay me to drive one. On the other hand, the Leaf range is enough for 95% of my driving, and (like most Americans) I have a 2nd car in the house for those rare long weekend drives. The market has different segments with different requirements for range and size. I suspect the market will quite clearly state that the range is more than good enough for the segment it is targeting (notice the states it is being sold in - they aren't even rolling it out in the big open spaces states).
zenith251Aug 8, 2010
I like how someone dugg you down JHW539, just for saying that you find the capabilities of the Leaf adequate for your life. Haters gonna...be ignorant morons.
bipolarruledoutAug 4, 2010
Lets talk cost of ownership which is astronomical on conventional vehicles.
Closed AccountAug 4, 2010
Let's talk about the fact that most Americans only keep a car for about five years..
nuefektsAug 4, 2010
Doing my part to teach the next gen about this exact topic. Good timing poster, lol
Lithium modified Power Wheels and windmill.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hLcOwaC9r7IComment is buried, click here to see the rest.
nuefektsAug 4, 2010
Doing my part to help the future gets down votes. Sorry, I meant to say, ass, vagina, penis snickers. There **** is that better.
shutupflandersAug 4, 2010
Sorry... I must not be smart enough to want a car with a range of 20 miles.
mywhitenoiseAug 4, 2010
But you're certainly dumb enough to believe cars that cost double would only have a 20 mile range.
slackdragonAug 4, 2010
Everyone's looking at it wrong... sure it's got a 40 mile round trip range, but that's 64.37 kilometers! A much bigger number!
shutupflandersAug 4, 2010
Show me one that doesn't.
zenith251Aug 4, 2010
And which electric car on sale today only goes 20 miles, shutupflanders?
shutupflandersAug 4, 2010
Which electric car is on sale today at all, besides a $100,000 Tesla?
zenith251Aug 4, 2010
www.google.com
dusanmalAug 4, 2010
Range definition is how far you can go before needing to turn back. For Chevy Vlt, 40 miles "range" on electricity alone is real range of 20 miles (and than 20 miles back). Beyond that you get your ordinary gasoline car, worth under 20000$ for 41000$. Nothing but electrical systems raise the price of Volt from 20000$ of its gasoline part and chassis to 41000$ with electrical parts included... More than double cost.
zenith251Aug 4, 2010
You missed the point of the Volt entirely dusanmal.
1. Series electric-gasoline hybrid vehicles extract more energy out of every drop of gasoline than a traditional gasoline car, or a Parallel hybrid. This is due to the nature of running an internal combustion engine as a generator. Assuming the car has no charge, the I4 motor will achieve around 50mpg on it's own. That's 50mpg in a car that is much bigger than a Prius.
2. If you drive 100 miles every day, that's still 40 miles a day you didn't use gasoline. Over a week that's 280 miles you didn't use gasoline. Over a year that's 14588 miles you didn't use gasoline.
So......?
remingtonhAug 4, 2010
I could drive back and forth to work and around town a little and plug in every night and never need see a gas station. I like that.
diablozx9Aug 4, 2010
Unless you live in Canad,, when it gets to -40 (or up north -70) that range gets much shorter.
spinozaqAug 4, 2010
The details haven't been released, but the Volt is likely going to turn on the gas engine when the battery is "out of temp range". The battery has a liquid cooling and heating system inside of it. So if it's below 0, the engine will turn on, drive the car, warm the battery ( and the occupants ) for a few minutes. Once the battery is up to temp it can take over and the engine would shut off.
There are a lot more benefits to having that gas engine on board the Volt then just the range extension it provides!
Closed AccountAug 4, 2010
Well read up more about this topic here: http://scam-report.co.cc/. I found it very helpful and informative.
sudosoldierAug 4, 2010
I dont like the fact that, if you were to get in a wreck, and you need the "jaws of life", they will not use them on the car because it could shock them. There's my whole reason.Comment is buried, click here to see the rest.
chilidogsAug 4, 2010
citation
dauntless1Aug 4, 2010
He doesn't have one, dumbasses never do. Good on you for trying though.
pakerAug 4, 2010
Is that worse than having a load of gasoline that could explode?
roborayAug 4, 2010
Unless the car manufacturers decide to run the main power cables from the batteries to the motors up through the roof or loop them in and out of the doors, I don't see that being a major point of concern.
bombulaAug 4, 2010
"if you were to get in a wreck, and you need the "jaws of life", they will not use them on the car because it could shock them"
Funny how we can construct objections to gasoline vehicles just as easily:
"No way I'm going to get in a tin box with 20 gallons of explosive liquid in it! That's like sitting on a bomb!"
or
"What sense does it make to have a vehicle that I can't refuel at home? You mean I have to go somewhere ELSE to get fuel for a gasoline car when I can recharge my electric at home!? What am I going to dry, drive back and forth to a special station to get fuel every other day? That's crazy!"
See what I did there? Your objections make you sound like you're living in the 19th Century. Funny people can't see their objections to electrics sounds the same.
jman491Aug 4, 2010
That's a bit of an insulting title. I'll buy it if it's better than the status quo. I'll definitely buy it if it saves me money without the government artificially adjusting prices.
fooljoeAug 4, 2010
if you're not willing to take $12,500 from the government (LEAF in CA at least) then maybe you really aren't smart enough.
Closed AccountAug 4, 2010
Where do you think that $12,500 comes from dude? They just pull it out of their ass huh, but jman491 is the dumb one?
fooljoeAug 4, 2010
who cares where it comes from? if you're a consumer all that should matter is your bottom line. it's another discussion (and I'd love to have it) whether the government subsidies being offered have merit.
in the meantime, since the subsidies are there, and since it's pretty rare that the govt cheese is coming straight to the little guy instead of to giant banks and the like, then you'd be foolish not to take it.
chriz2ferAug 4, 2010
Almost makes sense, except that even $25k is way up there for a lot of us. We can instead buy a used car for $5-8k, and many of us would never get even close to touching that $25k with maintenance and gasoline costs. Not to mention you still have to use gasoline at times on the electric car after a certain point, and it will certainly have its maintenance costs as well...
fooljoeAug 6, 2010
@chriz: if you're a used-car buyer with that budget then you're not exactly relevant to this discussion. I'm amazed at how many people are commenting here with their personal anecdotes about why they can't possibly manage with an EV or can't afford it or blah blah whatever.
please try to see the bigger picture. obviously, not everybody is a good fit for an EV, especially not a "first" generation EV. but a certain number of people mostly use their car just to commute back and forth to work, which is probably less than 50 miles from home. and some of these people have single family homes where they can garage and charge an EV, and probably also have multiple cars in the household. and some of these people may also be in the market for a *new* car, and would easily spend as much or more than the EVs about to become available.
this set of people is not small, despite all the examples to the contrary posted here. and for so many reasons it's important that EVs succeed. so, the question asks, albeit in a distasteful fashion, will enough of these people who are good EV candidates actually make the leap to buying an EV so that these EVs are successful?
I certainly hope so; I even expect so. But then, after reading these comments on the usually progressive digg I'm a little dismayed. I guess only time will tell.
Closed AccountAug 4, 2010
Whoever wrote that title is an elitist douche-bag who is disconnected from reality. I'd love to own a hybrid but I simply can't afford one and until someone creates an electric car that can fully recharge 2-3 mins instead of hours a 100% electric car is out of the question for me.
zenith251Aug 4, 2010
No one said you wouldn't have to make a few habit changes. Besides, most fully electric cars are marketed at multi-car families and city dwellers that spend the majority of their daily life inside metro areas.Comment is buried, click here to see the rest.
ell0boAug 4, 2010
Where, in most metro areas, are you going to recharge your car? Finding a parking spot is tough enough, yet alone a f**king external outlet. No, this is for people living in the burbs that have a measured commute and don't do too many road trips.
dbialacAug 4, 2010
Genius Idea:
Ethanol -- its a carbon neutral fuel. Your car can run in with a few tweaks minimal tweaks, as is the case of antique leaded cars converted to run unleaded. We can convert to it as we did from leaded to unleaded in the 80s. As for detractors who talk about the emissions from the farm equipment and the trucks that transport it? This machinery runs on biodiesel. Ethanol can actually produce a carbon-neutral world. No habit changes. No reliance on foreign oil. We get our cake and eat it too.
I personally use ethanol in my Chevy Avalanche. Its a great fuel, gives me a little bit of extra power and my carbon footprint is less than that of a Toyota Prius running gasoline.Comment is buried, click here to see the rest.
metalcastrAug 4, 2010
No home electric connection can provide enough amps to charge any electric car in 2-3 minutes. Shortest time will probably be a few hours.
Closed AccountAug 4, 2010
You'll need 480v at least and how many people have that in their homes?
fooljoeAug 4, 2010
why do you need to recharge in 2-3 minutes? if you have to drive 100s of miles a day or something, well then, that's great, no EV for you. thanks for sharing, I guess. cool story bro.
but if you're like the vast majority of Americans who drive less than 60 or so miles a day, and you have a place to charge at night, then requiring a 2-3 minute recharge time just shows an irrational fear of change. EVs charge while you sleep. it's not like a gas station where you sit there waiting. yes, that's right, you actually save time with an EV.
Closed AccountAug 4, 2010
So you own an EV, come home from work and put it on charge. Car is useless for four to eight hours and in the meantime someone (relative, police, spouse) calls from the hospital because your child had a serious accident etc.. or you just absolutely need to run out of the house for something.. Oh wait.. Your car is useless for four to eight hours.....
Or you are meeting friends but the meeting place is 20 more miles away...
Or you are on your way home with barely enough charge to make it there and you forgot something critical at the office....
fooljoeAug 4, 2010
thanks for sharing your concerns sam. if you're really worried about those things then don't buy an EV. nobody is forcing you to. although it may not be *smart* to let such unlikely concerns stop you from buying a car that's incredibly more efficient 99% of the time. whether an EV is a smart decision for an individual consumer ultimately comes down to his individual needs. it's easy to dream up scenarios where an EV doesn't work out, but the fact is for a great deal of people it does.
I could come up with a ton of reasons why buying a sports car doesn't make any sense for me, but I don't go trolling in those threads. if you've already decided you don't want an EV, then why are you wasting your time posting in an EV thread?
fotomanAug 4, 2010
we paid $26,000 out the door for our Prius 4 years ago. That really broke the bank let me tell you. Gone are the days of a $9,000 car. $26,000 is mid-range in my book.
The Leaf is what, $32,000 + tax - $7,500 federal tax credit = $27,500... pretty much what I paid for my Prius 4 years ago and I never have to buy gas again for that car.
4ndr01dAug 4, 2010
price it at 15 grand and they will fly off the lots
I can get a pimped out muscle car for 40 grand
andyswanAug 4, 2010
Another $15 gets you a genuine "hybrid" decal that'll make the hippies swoon....
fooljoeAug 4, 2010
if you want to spend 40 grand to get from point A to point B, and you choose a "pimped out muscle car" instead of an EV, well then I think we have an answer to OP's question.
and the LEAF is 20 grand in California. not close enough?
mbraynardAug 4, 2010
I made a product and it failed... because the consumers were too stupid to buy it.
bipolarruledoutAug 4, 2010
The status quo is a legitimate barrier to adoption. Not necessarily a valid one, but a barrier none the less.
jjason1985Aug 4, 2010
This account has been closed by the user
spinozaqAug 4, 2010
Not at the volume they are pushing out. 10,000 units. They could sell all of them at 40k without the tax credit ( which is an interesting discussion in itself. )
The next full year they expect 40 to 60 thousand units.... Those will also all sell very very quickly. The tax credit will be in place, and more relevant for these sales.... The full second year will also have the tax credit.... hopefully it will be over 100 thousand units... and profitable.
You have to keep in mind the Volt used by a typical commuter will save a few thousand dollars in gas over its life. So you have to knock a bit off price and squint a little to see the real numbers.
thudAug 4, 2010
"The status quo is a legitimate barrier to adoption"
All this means is that the leaf doesn't compete with current cars on its own merits. If I want a small, fuel-efficient vehicle, I'll get a Golf TDI. Not only is it inexpensive in terms of energy cost per mile, but it's actually fun to drive, and not weighed down with extra batteries and electronics.
If the only thing in the "plus" column of a Leaf is that it's fuel efficient, it's not going to attract many buyers who want something they actually enjoy driving. If you drop $20k on a car wouldn't you want something that you like spending time in?
shozikuAug 4, 2010
yup, you totally have hit the proverbial nail on the head.
Apple however is immune to this. Failed products always get bought no matter the cost or ability to function correctly... despite the education levels of their customer base.
exergenAug 4, 2010
"smart enough"??
What a complete and utter joke.
Nothing is smart about buying an untested, overpriced, union made, inconvenient to use and limited range hippie machine.
bcronosAug 4, 2010
Dugg up for "hippie machine"!
rahammAug 4, 2010
What does it being made by a Union have to do with smart or dumb? Nothing your are just a right wing crazy.
jjason1985Aug 4, 2010
This account has been closed by the user
rahammAug 5, 2010
Yeah no.
shozikuAug 4, 2010
NUH UH!! I'll show them how smart I am by buying many of them now!
sen5241Aug 4, 2010
If electric cars fail, it must be because consumers are too stoopid to buy them.
Not because the technology has matured to the point where it's cost-effective in the market place.
Not because they are being velvet-glove forced on the buying public by a government that seems to kow-tow to the utopian green lobby.
bipolarruledoutAug 4, 2010
Global warming is real. It's not just some conspiracy designed to ruin your day.
dauntless1Aug 4, 2010
The public today sees everything that's inconvenient to them as a conspiracy. It's easier than growing the f**k up.
Closed AccountAug 4, 2010
Green communists are the elite ones to save us from our stupidity.
inflationAug 4, 2010
They are smart enough not to
andyswanAug 4, 2010
Let's see if you're smart enough to get my wife, two kids, dog and 2 suitcases in it and drive it 2 hours to the lake house for the weekend, genius. After that, you can tell me how much more intelligent you are than I am when it comes to what I should drive.
danrabbitAug 4, 2010
*cough* http://www.teslamotors.com/models *cough*
Sometimes it's good to research a little before you post something on the tubes.
andyswanAug 4, 2010
Good point. Love the Tesla. Won't work for my family.....no sedan will.
You're right...I've been a little "negatively obsessed" with gov' motors new $41k golf cart.
If I was without tikes and if I wasn't 6'9 I'd definitely be checkin out the tesla.
mothrogAug 4, 2010
Oh boy! A marginally capable car for a mere $56,400! Where do I sign up?
fooljoeAug 4, 2010
cool story bro. now, if you're buying a car based on what you need it for a couple times a year, is that really smart? (if you go to the "lake house" more often than that then don't pester us common folk with your whining you f**king elitist.) what about the 95% of the time that you're driving it, like most Americans, by yourself back and forth to work? how smart is it to make that drive in a 10mpg SUV when for the same money you could buy a LEAF and a rooftop photovoltaic system and drive for free?
here's a *genius* idea for you: drive your wife's car to the lake house, or rent a car for that occasional trip.
Closed AccountAug 4, 2010
How's he saving money if he has to take his wife's gas car to get to the lake or f**king rent one?
Very *genius* of you man..
andyswanAug 4, 2010
I take the kids to school every morning. My wife picks them up. I'm 6'9 and we want as much steel cage around our kids as possible.... so neither of us is going to drive a golf cart.
We usually load up in her car to go to the lake, almost every weekend.
Commence the class warfare, because somehow going to the lake house that we all chipped in on so that we can wakeboard and tube and drink bourbon together makes me "elitist".
You're just too smart for me. I'm glad people like you are gaining more and more control over my life....imagine the mistakes I'd make!
fotomanAug 4, 2010
Now he says he goes to the lake 48+ weeks a year, so obviously it wouldn't make sense to purchase a vehicle in this class.
On the other hand, if the lake trips are a tad exaggerated and they only go once a month... by NOT driving the 10mpg SUV for 90% of travel...could save money.
thudAug 4, 2010
I'll buy whatever car I want to use for my commute to work. I will take into account EPA fuel economy to determine fuel cost per year, and consider that in the equation.
There's nothing about a Volt or a Leaf that makes me *want* one. I shouldn't feel obligated to drop tens of thousands of dollars on something I don't want. For some people, "smug" does have a very high value though and they will gladly fork over the cash.
fooljoeAug 4, 2010
@Andy: It's clear that from a policy standpoint, encouraging the shift to electric transportation has long been the smart move. Hence, the government tax credits. Now, for the first time, the combination of those credits and the decision of a major manufacturer (Nissan) to step up to the plate means that there is an EV for sale that is affordable enough to be a smart choice on the individual level, for millions of Americans.
If you're not one of those millions, then that's fine. And if you possibly are, but you still don't want an EV, that's fine too. Despite your apparent Fox News-fueled fears, nobody's ever going to force you to be smart.
Perhaps you missed the point of my "cool story bro": Nobody cares about your personal plight. Hey, I like going to the lake too - going tomorrow in fact. And renting a car to do it even though I have two ICEs at home. But who the f**k cares? What matters is we need to do something in this country to fix our addiction to oil, and we need to do it soon.
Sorry if you missed that I was trying to inject some levity with the whole "elitist" thing - was supposed to be ironic because people like you are always complaining about the "elitists" trying to take over their lives. Since you clearly have money to burn, it's your right to blow it on huge SUVs and lake houses and boats and such. But if you were concerned about getting from point A to point B in the most efficient manner, you would seriously consider using an EV, instead of just sharing your charming anectodes about why you can't be bothered with change.
brassbudAug 4, 2010
Ugh.
ellipsysAug 4, 2010
Judging by some of the irritatingly ignorant posts so far, it will be a hard sell. The powers that be have spent years trying to convince consumers that electric cars are anywhere from underpowered, to overly expensive, to simple bigotry-based tactics by insinuating that only hippies/homosexuals/LIBRULS/COMMUNISTS would drive them. There are the uninformed, and then there are the willfully ignorant - the first category you can remedy, but you can't do anything about the second and alas there are many who fit into that second category.
I'm driving the first vehicle I've every owned and its more than 10 years old, but when its time runs out I will be replacing it with an electric or hybrid of some sort. Personally I favor the boutique, small builders (Aptera and Tesla, for instance) and Asian companies that have been working and refining this technology for many generations, as opposed to the big American companies who have been dragged kicking and screaming into making sub-par efforts like the Volt, which as many probably read did not qualify as a low/zero emission vehicle as the new plug-in Prius and Nissan Leaf have..
I'm unsure why so many believe the costs to be exorbitant - with the exception of the famous Tesla, most EV and plug-in hybrids are affordable enough new, and within a few years they will be available used for smart buyers. Sure, if you're the type to buy a $5000-12000 used car, you're not going to be able to get a plug-in hybrid EV for that much, but it strikes me as hypocritical the amount who rail against the expense of hybrids but will purchase (or worse, lease) a conventional vehicle that costs $30k-80k or more
Those that believe they are underpowered have the oil company lobby to thank for all the years where EVs were capped at sub-50mph speeds. The Tesla is of course the proof of concept, but nearly all hybrids and the few EVs (including converted ones) I've driven do not lack the power necessary for commuter driving - getting onto the highway is no trouble. What they do lack however, is the VRRROOOOM VROOOOMM muscle car noises that seem to be integral for some Americans to believe the vehicle is powerful.
I'm not saying plug-in electrics and hybrids are perfect. Sure the energy needs to be generated somehow (Though many of the better hybrids are now installing solar panels to take care of the electrical systems - lights, sound, and climate, when possible) and we definitely need to push for cleaner, more efficient generation as well. However, for the average American driver who uses their vehicle for commuting and getting from point A to point B, it will be beneficial both to the driver cost-wise and to the environment as a whole. Getting a bunch of inefficient combustion engine emissions off the road will be a huge help to the world as a whole, and put a lot of coin in the pocket of the American driver who's smart enough to make his next purchase a new generation EV.
sen5241Aug 4, 2010
Solar panels to charge your electric car?
Wow, that's f**king retarded from someone using ad-hominem attacks against those who disagree.
Step away from the cool-aid, buster.
Comment is buried, click here to see the rest.
danrabbitAug 4, 2010
Learn to read. The 2010 Prius has solar panels BUILT IN TO THE CAR to run the climate control and other small systems.
http://thefutureofthings.com/pod/6252/2010-solar-roof-prius.html
sen5241Aug 4, 2010
Yes, I see you point now. I was blinded by the stupidity of that wall of text insult earlier.
zenith251Aug 4, 2010
The problem many people have with EVs is the lack of universal utilitarianism that most gasoline and diesel powered cars provide them with. Hybrids make plenty of sense, but the added cost translates to a funny compromise: Do I get the wonderful $26k Nissan Altima Hybrid (or say Ford Fusion Hybrid for $28k), or do I jump on a 1-2 year old fully equipped car of a higher price class for around the same or less money? Like you said, if you're used to paying $5000-$12000 for a used car, a hybrid or EV car is not for you. But if you can afford a $30k car, but would rather buy a $50k car for $30k, then the hybrid looks like a less attractive option.
Additionally, the Japanese do not respond well to being called Asian.
mizeryAug 4, 2010
Just responding to your first sentence, since you wrote way too much: It's a hard sell because they cost too much. Most people don't buy $60k cars. But, I'm glad you have so much money to throw at a car. You can support the companies while they develop the technology. The rest of us will jump on when prices are reasonable.Comment is buried, click here to see the rest.
smemilyAug 4, 2010
The Leaf costs $32k- or just $25k after tax rebates, so WTF are you on about?
jjason1985Aug 4, 2010
This account has been closed by the user
smemilyAug 4, 2010
Where the heck are you finding NEW gas vehicles with remote start, navigation, ABS, traction control, cruise, premium sound, rearview camera, automatic climate control, and DVD player for $14k?
I call bulls**t. Of the cars with an MSRP starting under $14k, NONE have DVD as an option. NONE have rearview camera. NONE are still under $14k if you add premium sound.
fooljoeAug 4, 2010
lol "Just responding to your first sentence, since you wrote way too much". I think we've found a consumer who is definitely NOT smart enough for an EV.
Closed AccountAug 4, 2010
@smemily: I've never bought a car that expensive in my life. I can get a Honda Civic well equipped for less than 20k and it will last well over ten years, get 300 miles on a tank easy, and takes five minutes to refuel...
mizeryAug 5, 2010
ABS, traction control, cruise as options? What is this, 1988? Can I get tilt steering and A/C with that? Premium sound from the factory still sounds like s**t compared to what you can get for $100 from any store. But you can't just get premium audio - it's a $3000 package because the powered sunroof is tied to it (sure it is). DVD player? In a car? Seriously? That's your big selling point?
Yup, this is why I'm not reading your long list of bulls**t on EVs.
fungowskiAug 4, 2010
Please put this comment in the form of an infographic and resubmit to digg so i can read it.
shanealeslieAug 4, 2010
I totally agree with you, and if I ever decide that I need a car I'm going to get an electric or hybrid myself.
The transition from purely oil-based vehicles to electric/ethanol hybrids is going to take decades due to consumer inertia, ignorance (sometimes willful), and disinformation. It will probably take solar collectors as standard roofing materials on new builds and sewage system ethanol/methanol production as a mandated city service before they really take hold; but once they do I look forward to being able to drive a converted Hummer that goes 0 to 60 in 5 seconds, with full instantaneous torque, and almost 0 emissions (http://www.fastcompany.com/magazine/120/motorhead-messiah.html?page=0%2C0).
mra45Aug 4, 2010
Many criticize those who are too illiterate or lazy to read a well thought out and informative comment like yours. But I proudly say:
tl;dnr
charlietunaAug 4, 2010
It comes down to money.
http://www.contrarianprofits.com/articles/the-fallacy-of-electric-car-economics/10708
Fleets such as the cars driven by city employees will benefit, but I need to tow my boat. Until then, I'm filling it with hi-octane, or maybe I'd consider a diesel.
logosx1Aug 4, 2010
No amount of technological sophistication or energy efficiency is a substitute for liberty. If people choose to burn fossil fuels from their own exhaust pipe rather than from a remote power plant, deal with it and shut up.
spinozaqAug 5, 2010
Are you going to come clean the black dust off my porch furniture every week? I'm starting to view driving gasoline cars like smoking. Freedom ends when your actions negatively affect other people.
bcronosAug 4, 2010
And why is it "greener" to run my car on coal instead of gas?
fazamanAug 4, 2010
Quiet, you! The car has zero emissions! Zero!
xenuxenutsAug 4, 2010
THE ANSWER
Lbs of CO2 per mile:
Electric Vehicle: .19
Gasoline Vehicle: .71
Assuming $0.11/kWh price for electricity and $2.50/gallon gas
Cost/Mile to Drive
Electric Vehicle: $0.055
Gasoline Vehicle: $0.09
I'm surprised at the answer.
from :
http://blogs.chron.com/newswatchenergy/archives/2010/02/whats_the_carbo.html
smemilyAug 4, 2010
Exactly. And with an electric you aren't tied to coal. You can power it by oil, solar, nuclear, exercycle, wind, hydro, natural gas, etc. Coal is the worst case scenario and it STILL is more efficient than petroleum engines.
gravityplanxAug 4, 2010
Coal may be the worst case scenario, but it is what is currently used. If you want electric cars to be "green", try to convince more people to get rid of their stupid hangups about nuclear power.
Nuclear power: Cheap, efficient, reusable, and INCREDIBLY safe.
bcronosAug 4, 2010
@ smemily - "You can power it by oil, solar, nuclear, exercycle, wind, hydro, natural gas, etc."
Oh really?
1. I already own a truck that runs on oil. I don't need a $40,000 tin can to do that.
2. Solar cells are still really expensive (especially on top of the price of the car) and the sun shines only about 1/3 of the year here.
3. The enviro-wackos shut down the nuclear plant here about 20 years ago.
4. Since the Volt takes 20 hours to charge when you plug it in, how long would it take to charge it with a bicycle? All to go 40 miles round trip? I'd be better off to ride the bike the 40 miles.
5. So I have to wait for the wind to blow until I can go get groceries? How much does a wind turbine cost? Would my city let me put it in my backyard?
6. We have cheap hydro here. The only viable alternative, except the enviro-wackos are starting to tear out the dams here because they kill salmon.
7. Natural gas fired electricity is not available here.
Maybe all this will make sense in 20 - 40 years, but not now. Thank God for Exxon, 76 and BP. They make my life so much easier...Comment is buried, click here to see the rest.
charlietunaAug 4, 2010
Try replicating those numbers with pure highway miles, taking line losses into account and eliminating any benefits from regenerative braking. Lots of assumptions in those numbers.
If anything, this is an argument for nuclear/solar/wind power.
jjason1985Aug 4, 2010
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dauntless1Aug 4, 2010
@jjason1985
DO you have different numbers, that are "real"? Would you post them please? Because without data to back up your bulls**t what you just said was "You're wrong because I look like an idiot!".
danieltttAug 4, 2010
@xenuxenuts <<<
Cost/Mile to Drive
Electric Vehicle: $0.055
Gasoline Vehicle: $0.09 >>>
If it only costs .035 per mile extra for the convenience, reliability, and safety of a fuel burner, one would be a fool not to buy a car with a nice gas tank installed. Thanks for putting that in perspective for all of us..
xenuxenutsAug 5, 2010
replying to bcronos because lists are awesome (not being sarcastic).
1. That may be true. However, a certain percentage of people will be buying a vehicle next year. That's who new cars are aimed at. In larger cities, there are a lot of people who will spend at least $40k.
2. Solar may have already passed nuclear in cheapness according to some guy from Duke. If he's wrong, he's more than likely early.
3. IMO, talk to Nevada about that. Nuke is great, but we never really solved dealing with the waste.
4. If you plug it into 220v, it takes less than 3 hours. Biking 10 miles to work by 8am wouldn't be my choice if I have to wear a suit or business casual. The car does cost 40k after all.
5. I would love to see cheap household wind generators that could pay for themselves in 3 or 4 years that can be used in a city. A quick search found one that claims a 3 year ROI, but was light on details.
6. There's been a backlash against hydro lately. In my mind, reducing pollution like CO2 and mercury is more important than maintaining wildlife habitat. However, maintaining a natural food supply that's good for you does have merit I suppose.
side note: Environmentalists are a lot like religious people. Most are decent, moderate, normal people, but there are bat s**t insane people in the group too, and that's who you always hear about. TV and internet news makes it sound like everyone is a radical nut. That's simply not the case. Most people aren't watching Glenn Beck, trashing fur coats, protesting dams or abortion clinics, or starting meat packing plants on fire.
7. can't argue with that.
Series hybrid cars like this make sense for commute cars, not for a family's sole car. Pure electric does not, because that limits it to commute only. It needs to be usable to drive on a short trip, say from San Jose to Monterey. Which leads me to the next point.
If the Volt can compete with a Lexus, then 40k isn't too bad. This isn't aimed at people making $40k in a town of 30k in middle America. It's aimed at people making $100k+ in metro areas. It's smarter to start with a luxury car IMO. There's fewer to repair if somethings screwed up, and it makes the first gen electric parts a smaller percentage of the cost of the vehicle.
collinetsAug 4, 2010
Your argument is a non-starter. Combustion engine is far less efficient than a power plant that is designed to be as efficient as humanly possible.
Thanks for the numbers xenu.
jjason1985Aug 4, 2010
This account has been closed by the user
fooljoeAug 4, 2010
xenu is way too kind to gas vehicles in his comparison. all electric cars I've seen get at least 4 miles / kwh, not 2. also most EVs are charged off-peak with cheaper electricity. and he assumes 36 mpg for a gas car, while the fleet average is closer to 20. and gas in California at least is over $3/gallon and going nowhere but up. the real cost comparison is more like 2 cents a gallon for EVs versus 15 cents for gas.
another point, although not exactly "green"-related. 100% coal means 100% american-powered (same with any other source of electricity.) gasoline means 70% of your money is shipped out of the country..
thudAug 4, 2010
Once enough EV's are charging "off-peak", "off-peak" will lose all meaning.
fooljoeAug 4, 2010
studies have shown that there's currently enough unused off-peak capacity for millions of EVs, so we've got a long ways to go before we have to worry about that. and in the meantime, most new EV drivers will discover that if they diverted the money formerly wasted on gas into the amortized cost of a rooftop photovoltaic system, within 5-10 years they'll be driving for free, and getting free household electric to boot.
thephosphorboxAug 4, 2010
1. If I had the budget to buy one..
2. If I had the facilities in which to store/charge it..
.. I would buy one.
Closed AccountAug 4, 2010
you can plug them in anywhere
gefahrAug 4, 2010
*anywhere that will let you use their electricity and has an outlet within range of your vehicle
FTFY
werfwerAug 4, 2010
that's not stealing at all.
thephosphorboxAug 4, 2010
I live in an apartment complex. There are no outlets installed outside, therefore I have no place to plug such a car in.
fungowskiAug 4, 2010
I'd drive around my town to all the shopping complexes, schools and parks looking for places with outlets outside the building. You could probably pretty easily get away with free "fuel" for many years, as long as you're willing to ride your bike home from your premium spot behind kmart.
angelbunnyAug 4, 2010
Maybe when automakers are smart enough to make a proper diesel hybrid.
Even without batters they make capacitors today that can hold a charge for 3 minutes. Using electric for acceleration and diesel for driving at a constant speed would save on mpg on both city and highway.
smemilyAug 4, 2010
So according to you, when manufacturers make a proper diesel hybrid, consumers will buy... electric cars? Because that was the question, you know.
thudAug 4, 2010
The volt uses a gasoline generator. If it used a diesel generator instead, it would be even more efficient.
angelbunnyAug 4, 2010
in europe, at least
hodorAug 4, 2010
Will they work day-in, day-out in the middle of a Canadian winter for the 10-15 years I tend to own cars?
If the car can do that, and not cost me more money (total cost of ownership), I'll get one.
diggduggjoeAug 4, 2010
The batteries will never make it, plain and simple. I own a 9x Jeep with over 1/4 million miles and it keeps going. Aside from maintenance, it has been dirt cheap to keep running.
Electrics have a lot of work to go to become that reliable. The batteries do not last very long and are very expensive. That is probably the big difference in price just there. Gas powered vehicles need a cheap tank that can last decades while the electrics have battery problem.
Closed AccountAug 4, 2010
Dugg up for the Jeep. Been running a 2001 TJ well since 2001, and it takes everything I can through at it... Biggest expense so far? I had to change out an alternator ($40.00) on the trail after a wee bit too deep water crossing..
diablozx9Aug 4, 2010
If you go far enough north, it gets to -70. People there buy a new battery for their car EVERY year. Now, how do you think an electric will do there...
bcronosAug 4, 2010
Yep, cold kills batteries...
jjason1985Aug 4, 2010
This account has been closed by the user
dauntless1Aug 4, 2010
And now, for my next trick, I'll point out three more areas that aren't designed for human habitation where electrics won't run.
Wait, you mean 98 percent of the world doesn't live anywhere NEAR -70?
Jeez, could have fooled me with these comments. Someone mentions electric cars and instantly there are a million LIARS living in extreme cold conditions in northern Canada. Pure bulls**t.
Closed AccountAug 4, 2010
Dude it gets -10 -15 in PA every winter. We change batteries left and right... I guess I should first buy a house with a garage to keep my EV in, then not drive it on cold wintery days?
hodorAug 4, 2010
I live in Ottawa, d**kh**d. It gets to -40 C at the coldest, and it's regularly around -30. I do most of my driving miles to/from ski hills in the winter. Why is it a big deal for me to want a car that meets my needs?
heliumflashAug 4, 2010
Smart enough to buy into an extremely expensive and new technology? Sounds like Apple fanboys to me.
If that's smart, I'll choose to remain dumbComment is buried, click here to see the rest.
Closed AccountAug 4, 2010
Nice try....
In reality, you would have to either a) have lots of disposable income to buy an electric car, or b) be awfully damn stupid.
drmangrumAug 4, 2010
When electric cars are practical, gimme a call. I'm smart enough not to drop a s**tload of money on a vehicle that has little infrastructure to support recharging it on a roadtrip.
diggduggjoeAug 4, 2010
That is another issue right there. You must use an electric as a local golf cart while still having to buy a real car for intercity travel. It may make a great 3rd car for the uber-rich, but most of us have only enough money to afford 1 or 2 cars which need to be able to handle every task we throw at them.
Closed AccountAug 4, 2010
I own three vehicles and each one serves a purpose. An EV could not replace any of them.... So even though I could most likely afford an EV, I have no use for any of them in their current form...
chilidogsAug 4, 2010
Electric cars powered by coal burning power plants? Yeah. We are exactly that smart.
smemilyAug 4, 2010
Coal is the worst case scenario and it is still more efficient and pollutes less than driving a conventional ICE powered car.
chilidogsAug 4, 2010
coal and natural gas power plants make up the vast majority of power in the us. only about 25% of our power comes from other sources so it is not the "worst case scenario" it is the most likely scenario.
http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=Existing_U.S._Coal_Plants
It also means that the reduction in green house gases is marginal at best.
"For example, The American Government Accountability Office reported that an electric SUV recharged via coal-powered electricity is only around 15% cleaner than it’s gas counterpart.
On the other hand a study from Environment Texas shows that electric cars powered by the same dirty coal generated power are 27% cleaner than gasoline powered cars."
27% reduction in green house gas emissions per vehicle hardly seems like a victory especially when you consider that a wild success would be replacing 2% or 3% of the total nation wide fleet of combustion vehicles.
So yeah its BS. If you made every single car in the country electric it would reduce emissions by about 25%. Electric cars mean dick if you don't make changes in power and industry.
http://www.gavinshoebridge.com/electric-cars/dirty-electric-cars-powered-by-dirty-coal/
smemilyAug 4, 2010
Since when does a 25% reduction not mean dick??!? I don't know if you've ever worked a budget, but if you can reduce expenses by that much, it's f**kING HUGE.
Closed AccountAug 4, 2010
Until all those batteries start getting dumped somewhere and start leaching into the soil, rivers, and lakes etc.. Because you know, something like that could never happen..
smemilyAug 4, 2010
not really. car batteries are recycled in greater '%s than any other consumer product in the world.
chuckdeesAug 4, 2010
The best set up for an electric auto. Would be to have a solar powered charging station. That way once the cost of creating the charging station is covered. It is all pure profit and you are not counting on coal plants to charge your auto.
drmangrumAug 4, 2010
Solar is very, very slow. You would need a massive bank of panels to provide power at an industrial level. It would be more efficient to use wind, or better yet, a combination of power systems. The true problem isn't the source of the electricity, but the time involved in the charge. For instance Tesla cars require at least 4 hours of charge time, and that's if you use the home optimal home mounted system. While on the road it can take you anywhere from 8-48 hours to fully charge....and that's to go 200 miles.
videographerAug 4, 2010
Sorry, pal, but I generate more than enough electricity on a sunny day with my 2.4Kw solar array to charge a Leaf. Of course, it's more of a barter deal, since the electricity I generate goes into the grid during the sunny hours, and is withdrawn during the darker hours.
You should try it. It really works.
Since when is Digg populated by luddites? Oh yeah, I forgot - forever. <sigh>
drmangrumAug 4, 2010
You generate power for YOUR house, and even then you just feed it back to the grid because you're not home during those hours. Your home has very low power needs during the day. You're running an AC, refrigerator, and maybe a few clocks here and there.
It's a completely different beast when you go from powering a home at a time when it has low power needs and recharging cars all day every day.
Sorry pal, learn to think.
fauozAug 4, 2010
My how things haven't changed in 100 years. Potash batteries?
1910 Edison electric car, read the ad.
http://i181.photobucket.com/albums/x264/allclassics/electricCar.jpgComment is buried, click here to see the rest.
Closed AccountAug 4, 2010
Insulting title. Sorta like "Have you stopped beating your wife".
angryguy2009Aug 4, 2010
Thanks for reminding me!
/s
pinchduckAug 4, 2010
This driver is smart enough to pay cash for a used vehicle. The EV people can have their car payments, I'm not interested in debt.
kingp43Aug 4, 2010
Yessirrr!!! I love how all these other guys have cash ( or pending debt ) ready to go drop 20-30k on ANY kind of car. At nearly 40 yrs old I have yet to spend over maybe 3 or 4k for any car. I do drive a hand me down 8k nissan 200 sx 4 cyl. that cost me about $30 every week or two to drive (purchased from family member a few years off of production for 9k ). And also I have the '66 mustang in the garage for some fun weekend drives that I actually spent about 20k into over a few yrs. ( 7k paint - 3500$ wheels ). Yet there is no way I see myself going down to a dealership looking for a $500 a month car expense. I just don't have that desire, although I could probably pay it. and like everyone mentioned - is it going to haul my and three friends to the golf course? Tow jet skis to the lake? A boat? nah... don't see it happening. sorry greenies
howitzer86Aug 4, 2010
I'm not sure why you were dugg down. You speak the truth.
However, if you don't get a decent used car any money you'd otherwise save will be spent on expensive repairs. Not everybody wants to deal with that. My mother pays $300 a month for a Chevy. That money might have better uses, but it hasn't had any problems in the two years she's owned it; just oil changes and new tires.
My first car was a nightmare. Dealing with the rust was a killer. Thankfully I was liberated from the beast by a crash at an intersection (non-explosively) destroying my rusting gas tank and lines. (though it was **$600** - the lesson? Buy used, but buy smart.)
lazlotlomaxAug 4, 2010
If we could build more nuclear plants then the electric car would make more sense but burning more coal to replace gas is just stupid.
bipolarruledoutAug 4, 2010
Chicken vs. egg?
collinetsAug 4, 2010
Can't afford a new vehicle even if I wanted to, that and new vehicles are one of the worst investments possible. I'm a huge supporter of getting off of fossil fuels, if these cars can last as long as my '98 with just as little maintenance then maybe I'll have one in another 10 years.
kingp43Aug 4, 2010
lol yup
98 200sx 4cyl, lol love it
neutron7Aug 4, 2010
They need better batteries which use no lithium. relying on lithium which is running out already and only comes from china is a very bad idea.
kingp43Aug 4, 2010
running out? yikes. maybe they shouldn't add it to our water supply to keep us sedated and from killing ourselves ( lol sure ).
http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8&q=lithium+in+our+water
Hell they're already poisining us with flouride in our water for decades now. How come my kids and I still get cavities?
chuckdeesAug 4, 2010
One option would be to convert auto's to LP. LP is not considered a greenhouse gas. And the US has vast amounts of it.
Another plus is that normal engines can be converted to run on LP very easily.
gojirraAug 4, 2010
Something all the electric haters are forgetting: Maintenance costs.
gefahrAug 4, 2010
electrics don't need maintenance? they still have a drivetrain, a combustion engine, and obviously inherently more electronics than conventional cars.
fooljoeAug 4, 2010
@gefahr: electrics still have a combustion engine? ummm, that would then not be an "electric".
thudAug 4, 2010
Yes, the Volt has a combustion engine. It doesn't drive the wheels directly but it powers a generator which kicks in when the battery is drained to 30% capacity.
fooljoeAug 4, 2010
the volt is a hybrid
Closed AccountAug 4, 2010
Can I replace parts in my garage like I do with my current vehicles or do I have to take it to the dealer and get raped?
fotomanAug 4, 2010
really? A car manufactured after 2000, you're replacing all the parts in your garage?
Closed AccountAug 4, 2010
Really, I actually use my vehicles and yes consumable parts such as filters, plugs, brake pads, alternators, BATTERIES, etc. do exist and do need replaced even on the newest of cars.. Let alone engine upkeep (belts, waterpumps, valves, ehaust).. Any hybrid is going to have all of those parts and every EV will have the bulk of them...
thudAug 4, 2010
"really? A car manufactured after 2000, you're replacing all the parts in your garage?"
Uh, yeah, it can be done actually. Generally you have to buy a repair manual.
fooljoeAug 4, 2010
since no mass-produced EV has ever been offered for sale to this point, most EV drivers thus far are hobbyists who've had to keep alive aging Rav4-EVs or built their own EV conversions from scratch. there's a vibrant community of EV enthusiasts who help each other out with home maintenance.
@Sam, you list belts, waterpumps, valves, exhaust. an EV has none of that. hybrids are obviously more complex than either (which is why they're retarded), but EVs are incredibly simple machines. most don't even need transmissions, thanks to the torque profile of an electric motor. the battery, depending upon what kind you're using, is of course the most significant maintenance concern. new lithium batteries in production cars remain an unknown, but EV drivers have lots of experience doing their own work on deep-cycle lead batteries, and to some extent with NiMH batteries (which, unfortunately, are irreplaceable so must be babied). other than that there are a few things shared with traditional cars, like steering, HVAC, tires, wiper blades, but that's about it.
fossilnewsAug 4, 2010
Title = Smug Alert
kingp43Aug 4, 2010
lol
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OM9jhGiIAFM
tgc1Aug 4, 2010
Electrics are the future. You can argue all you like, but even the movies show this. Sure the cost is somewhat high now, but everything comes at a high price when it is first introduced to a mass market. But economies of scale soon bring the cost down. But judging by the number of numb skulls commenting here, it's going to remain expensive for quite some time.
Just FYI a lot of people have converted their vehicle for about 5 grand and got pretty decent performance out of the them. I find it pretty sad that it's 2010 and Electric Vehicles have been around for over 110 years and this is the best we can come up with. What a f**king joke. But again, yeah, keep complaining about it. The way we're going the only way we'll see electric vehicles replace combusion engines is if they give them away for free.
tgc1Aug 4, 2010
Remember folks. 100% power at 0 RPM. You don't wait for the power to get into that sweet spot like on Internal Combustion Engines (eg. 5,500 RPM where the car makes its peak power).
mra45Aug 4, 2010
I find that your post was very informative and well thought out. The points you posed were very compelling and have altered my perception of this issue.
Haha nah I'm joking, too long did not read!Comment is buried, click here to see the rest.
dauntless1Aug 4, 2010
*Too long not smart enough to understand*
Fix'd.
drmangrumAug 4, 2010
Electric or hydrogen fuel cells are the future, but until they can find a way to recharge batteries economically and quickly, it's not practical.
tgc1Aug 4, 2010
They already have that technology the issue is with refueling sites in which to do that. Take away all of the fuel stations and the like, you aren't going to go on a cross country trip now are you? Same goes for electrics. If there is a nation wide infrastructure to refill the batteries quickly, then it will soon replace fuel stations.
jjason1985Aug 4, 2010
This account has been closed by the user
drmangrumAug 4, 2010
Hydrogen fuel cells generate power. Read up on it.
kingp43Aug 4, 2010
tgc1 - "Electrics are the future. You can argue all you like, but even the movies show this."
lol point made - now beware the terminators because uhhh you know the movies and all, oh no!!! zombies!!Comment is buried, click here to see the rest.
werfwerAug 4, 2010
i thought the future was rovers with supercharges and gun turrets ?
Closed AccountAug 4, 2010
You be the early adopter okay. I'll wait until an ALL electric car with a quick charge time off of 120v and a range of at least 300 miles at a decent sustainable speed that costs less than 30k to come along... Oh, Nevermind, I'll be dead by then..
cmostAug 4, 2010
Considering most people are dumbasses or douche bags all around... need we say more?
Closed AccountAug 4, 2010
Allow me to introduce you smart people to free will.
Can that title be any more smug?
bipolarruledoutAug 4, 2010
"Free will" is a product of the marketing department.
Closed AccountAug 4, 2010
Well, perhaps Obama can make the purchase of these cars mandatory like he did for insurance. That will fix everything and stop that evil free choice that humans have regardless of the marketing department.
Its funny, Coca Cola has a huge marketing department and some very clever advertisement. Yet I never buy a coke.
Funny how that works isn't it?
dauntless1Aug 4, 2010
@Codeandoptics
Free will is a separate issue, but I'll respond. I think a person should be allowed the freedom to do as they please, as long as they aren't directly harming others to do it (murderers, rapists ect.)
However, just like freedom of speech doesn't make what you say intelligent, freedom of action doesn't imply that you should be free of ridicule for doing stupid things. Don't want to be embarrassed? You have the freedom to stop being a goddamn idiot. Simple, right?
Closed AccountAug 4, 2010
yeah, I agree with you. This poster has proved that freedom of speech doesn't make you smart thats for sure. In this case its smug arrogance.
But people, stupid or not have free choice when it comes to buying an electric car. Just because someone can't afford newtech, does not make them stupid, and thats why this title is a total fail.
mcquittyAug 4, 2010
I wonder what will happen when true electric cars hit the road and the rated range reduces over time. As someone who has battery operated phones, laptops, pdas, etc, I know that the rated battery life and real life are different. And as the battery ages, the charge holds less energy. Which means what happens when I get a car rated for 100 miles gets 70 and strands me?
theactionman07Aug 4, 2010
This account has been closed by the user
macintoshreaderAug 4, 2010
The problem with your argument is that you're comparing different battery technologies. The batteries in a car like the LEAF are very advanced in comparison to what we use in most consumer products.
They should hold 80% of their charge after five years of use. And the battery has a warranty of 8 years, too. A normal laptop battery will hold only around 40-50% of their charge after five years of use. You really shouldn't compare them when you don't know what you're talking about.
fooljoeAug 4, 2010
that's why there's a warranty. that will get us to 2015 at least, when Chevron's stranglehold on NiMH battery technology is finally released. those batteries have been demonstrated, in the Rav4-EV, to go over 100,000 miles with no range degradation. and they are more recyclable and cheaper than lithium.
ecoreAug 4, 2010
Are girls smart enough to suck my c**k?
bcronosAug 4, 2010
@ smemily - "You can power it by oil, solar, nuclear, exercycle, wind, hydro, natural gas, etc."
Oh really?
1. I already own a truck that runs on oil. I don't need a $40,000 tin can to do that.
2. Solar cells are still really expensive (especially on top of the price of the car) and the sun shines only about 1/3 of the year here.
3. The enviro-wackos shut down the nuclear plant here about 20 years ago.
4. Since the Volt takes 20 hours to charge when you plug it in, how long would it take to charge it with a bicycle? All to go 40 miles round trip? I'd be better off to ride the bike the 40 miles.
5. So I have to wait for the wind to blow until I can go get groceries? How much does a wind turbine cost? Would my city let me put it in my backyard?
6. We have cheap hydro here. The only viable alternative, except the enviro-wackos are starting to tear out the dams here because they kill salmon.
7. Natural gas fired electricity is not available here.
Maybe all this will make sense in 20 - 40 years, but not now. Thank God for Exxon, 76 and BP. They make my life so much easier...
bipolarruledoutAug 4, 2010
Those in the Gulf probably aren't in full agreement with that closing statement.
Closed AccountAug 4, 2010
Those in the gulf are still guzzling oil and gas just as fast as you and me buddy...
videographerAug 4, 2010
Because let's not forget...it's all about YOU.
/s
dauntless1Aug 4, 2010
In these ICE/Electric debates it always is.
Closed AccountAug 4, 2010
You buy me the 40k piece of s**t and I'll drive it okay?
thudAug 4, 2010
"You buy me the 40k piece of s**t and I'll drive it okay?"
That's kind of what the tax credit is for. Whether we want to or not, we're all buying a part of every Volt and Leaf that gets sold.
cheesehead9805Aug 4, 2010
I'll put my money on hydrogen cars being the future.
metalcastrAug 4, 2010
They're electric too.
fooljoeAug 4, 2010
good luck with that. I've got a bridge to sell you too...