What is Digg?110 Comments
- ProfDuck, on 10/12/2007, -1/+31You do realize that its just talking about the interval being the most dissonant interval, which is a augmeneted 4th/dimished 5th/tri-tone.
That mentality disappeared around the middle of the Classical era, You'll see it rarely at the end of that era and a lot throughout the Romantic era. - galfridus73, on 10/12/2007, -8/+37Dude... I agree with you 100%, but read the article before going on your rant. The article is primarily focusing on a film called "Metal: A Headbanger's Journey," not trying to further church propaganda.
- mDot, on 10/12/2007, -1/+27A perfect example of someone commenting on an article they haven't bothered to read.
From the article:
"...all of them rely heavily on tritones, a musical interval that spans three whole tones, like the diminished fifth or augmented fourth." "...the Church wanted to eradicate the sounds from its music because it invoked sexual feelings" and "In the Middle Ages when people were ignorant and scared, when they heard something like that and felt that reaction in their body they thought 'uh oh, here come the Devil'".
The middle ages... as in, not the right now ages. Are there religious people who believe that certain things are of the devil today? Sure, but most of them aren't the zealots you seem to conjure whenever you think of religion. Get over yourself.
/dugg for baby makin' music - derjazzmeister, on 10/12/2007, -1/+16The notion that the tritone is a "bad" interval stemmed from the early music theorists attempting to justify it's usage through ratios. To the Greeks, perfection existed in fours. (The four temperaments is an example). So the Pythagorean ratios of intervals were a further way to understand and catalog intervals as useful or not useful. This is why (to this day) we call some intervals "perfect" such as the unison (1:1) octave (2:1) fifth (3:2) and fourth (4:3). The ratios have to do with the mathematical relationship of string length and the tones/intervals produced.
The "tritone," has a ratio of 45:32 in the Pythagorean tuning system, which is by far the most dissonant interval (mathematically speaking) of the octave. It should also be pointed out that the tritone splits the octave exactly. Starting on C, a tritone up is F#. From F# a tritone up is C.
This article does a lousy job of differentiating between the melodic tritone as opposed to the harmonic tritone. The tritone exists in modern day music as a complete consonance to our ears. (Jazz, blues and pop sometimes END songs on these chords--this would have been unheard of 100-150 years ago). At the time of the Renaissance, we began to see composers using this interval harmonically as passing notes. Eventually the interval appeared in harmonic situations and as modal music became less-used in place of tonal music, the rise of the dominant chord led to composers employing the "passing 7th" as part of the dominant sonority.
Composers used the tritone interval for centuries, but typically avoided the interval melodically except for effect. (as was mentioned in the article) It is only because of medieval mysticism and lack of historical context that the "feared" tritone became known as the devil's interval. - MBro, on 10/12/2007, -3/+17So that's why I get an erection every time the simpsons comes on
- Mneitzel, on 10/12/2007, -20/+33Dude, early church was not in charge of anything. Check your Roman history. And yeah the church did do many bad things against the teachings of the bible. A book that if you research it , has change actually very little. But looking at these things would mean you have to get pass your bias against Christians. Actually I am getting sick of the constant attacks on my faith, some people on Digg need real lives.
On the subject, I love Wagner. And the church was just silly about this. - inactive, on 10/12/2007, -0/+12Wow, I don't know about "invoked sexual feelings"! The tritone sounds pretty disgusting and disturbing by itself. Nothing sexual about it whatsoever. Even when used as a passing tone to resolve to some other chord it's still pretty gross.
Our band uses it a lot. :) - KidVicious, on 10/12/2007, -3/+14Digg promotes stories to the homepage by seeing how many diggs they have in a certain timespan, for stories that are dugg by real people. A lot of people dugg this story quickly therefore it was promoted. Also, the homepage is not for "top stories" but for recently promoted stories. If you are looking for the top stories, you may want to click on the "top stories" link on the right side of the page.
That's how Digg works. If you don't like it, you don't have to use it. And if you don't like it and continue to diss it in the comment system you are simply a troll with nothing better to do, and people will continue to bury your comments or even block you altogether. - Rhine23, on 10/12/2007, -0/+9Well if you cant read music you can hear it if you have one of these songs you can try and hear it :/ sry direct cut and past from wikipedia
The tritone retains its "Devil in Music" character in popular music, specifically heavy metal. The opening of Black Sabbath's signature song Black Sabbath makes heavy use of the tritone. Other metal songs with prominent tritones in their main riffs are Diamond Head's Am I Evil?, Metallica's For Whom the Bell Tolls and Enter Sandman and Dream Theater's As I Am. Though not a metal band, Rush famously used the tritone to create the distinctive opening riff for the song YYZ. Perhaps the single guitarist to have made the most extensive use of the tritone is Robert Fripp of King Crimson, who used it repeatedly in King Crimson albums like Larks' Tongues in Aspic, Starless and Bible Black, and Red. Other examples are the beginning of Liszt's Dante Sonata, Sibelius's Fourth Symphony and Jimi Hendrix's Purple Haze. The tritone is also used throughout Benjamin Britten's War Requiem, as an ironic "point of reference" despite the tone's inherent instability, thereby offering subtle commentary on the nature of war itself. Slayer has traditionally used the tritone extensively, and their 1998 album titled "Diabolus in Musica" reflects that fact. - inactive, on 10/12/2007, -0/+7This is fascinating on many levels. Intervals definitely do induce mood changes based on how they are used. Jazz & Classical utilize them the best. Country, ..., well Country is like not even on the radar---anything beyond a 4th or 5th is highly risky, provided they know what an interval is?!
Regarding the article, find yourself a good music book, and you will see how many of the scales we know today came from the church; many of the old chants "seems" to be written around these scales. The fact that they banned certain intervals proves that even back then, they understood the power of music.
It's sad how some, when they see the word "church", get so hung up over it that they lose all sense of reality. Like it or not, it's part of human history, and if you ignore it just because you have a problem with it, you're doing yourself a huge disservice. I for one would have loved to have spent a week back in say, the year 1200, sitting in various churches, listening to the music of the day. I just wonder what it must have sounded like. - Rhine23, on 10/12/2007, -2/+8Its also used in March Slave by Tchaikovsky if you've never heard of it you probably have its very famous... Its part of the melody too.
- ProfDuck, on 10/12/2007, -2/+7Not a big surprise, really. Since most American-based music has evolved from Jazz, which uses 7th chords everywhere.
Of course, popular music today barely reflects Jazz, but if you look as the evolution of pop music, most early rock & roll/rockabilly music evoled from bluegrass and jazz - krewemaynard, on 10/12/2007, -3/+8Good grief...I never cease to be amazed at how far some folks will go to drag the Bush admin into something. I didn't like Clinton, but I don't recall associating weird chords with stained dresses. Sheesh.
- 4771cu5, on 10/12/2007, -4/+9The astronomers call it the Pope-scope. It's searching for Wormwood.
- breakneckridge, on 10/12/2007, -4/+9Ever listened to monastic chant music, the most ancient Christian music? The ONLY harmony intervals they allow are the octave and the perfect fifth. They didn't even allow the major third which is needed to make basically every "happy sounding" chord you've ever heard in your life. Every other possible interval is considered unholy. Those Christians sure have some funny ideas.
- ketsugi, on 10/12/2007, -9/+14Mneitzel, if you're getting sick of it, be prepared to stay sick. Christianity's pretty much been under attack since day one, and that's exactly what Jesus said it'll be like. The world hates us, remember?
- gpit2286, on 10/12/2007, -0/+4@modusop
Very right - Tritones are actually used a lot. Besides the V7 chords, they are also used in +6 chords (Fr, Ger, and It) because tritones lead to the dominant so well. Tritones have always been used but they were hidden. I'm currently playing a piece by Bach and there are so many times that Bach will even make leaps of tritones in between phrases. (Not a lot, but you actully have to play the music to realize it.)
@Magic Robert
What? Basses and Tenors are usally tuned in 4th's or 5th's to get the V-I relationship or the semi abrasive I-IV. Horn bookes use open 5ths and Octaves and other close notes in the overtone series... which Tritones are not. So um... Yea... - inactive, on 10/12/2007, -22/+26Ah yes, the poor persecuted christians. The crusades, the inquisition, the attempts to force their beliefs into our laws, into our schools, and into our science.. The poor persecuted christians. They stole Winter Solstice, and Yule, and attack anyone who doesnt say "merry christmas" - while they lay gifts before their decorated pagan tree of the god of seasons. The poor persecuted christians.
(Acually, I think behind Blacks, Women, Athiests, Pagans - Muslims are the most persecuted of groups. But you keep crying yourself a river.)
Awh.. Brings a tear to my eye. - BassCadet, on 10/12/2007, -2/+6For those of us who can't read music, the article does a ***** job of describing what this sounds like. The Maria example sucks. Why can't they just play this on a keyboard without the vocal clutter and let us hear what this supposedly sounds like?
- ProfDuck, on 10/12/2007, -1/+5You'll also know that traditional 4-part writing rules used in the Baroque and classical era made this interval almost impossible to come into a composition unless someone really borke those rules.
This is why you don't see it come into compositions until the Late Classical (i.e. Beethoven, who was way ahead of his time compositional technique-wise) and Romantic eras. - BassCadet, on 10/12/2007, -0/+4@ProfDuck
Well, I don't exactly have any Korg's laying about in my house.
FYI - For anyone else who wants a better example, Black Sabbath - Black Sabbath.mp3 works great. Listen to the music after the church bells and it is very clear what this tritone thing is about.
EDIT - I really wish I could read and write music! As a kid I spent too much time playing soccer and swimming and other useless crap - parents, make your kids learn an instrument! - Brahms, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3WOOT FOR MUSIC EDUCATED PEOPLE.
WE SHALL ONE DAY RISE!!!!!
who else knows how to resolve resolve a V7 in four part or compose using a secondary dominat or can analize allegro sonta form
BACH BIATCH!!!!!!! - shockwavedave, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3It's nice to see a fair amount of educated musicians on Digg.
- fitchmicah, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3this is funny how people believe this like it's some conspiracy!
- johnwsmith, on 10/12/2007, -1/+4Tritones are everywhere, even in today's innofensive pop music. It does not sound "diabolical" at all if you know how to use it. In the example above, just add a D-flat (to have Db + F + B) and you have nothing else than a good ol' 7th chord. Tritone is just a tension, try playing G-flat + B-flat after F + B and you'll know what I mean.
- rekrapt, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3Absolutely. Sound affects us mentally and physically. Sound is used as a weapon now for riot control. Those in the comments here that have pooped on article are simply letting their disdain for Christianity or the notion of God and Satan get in their way. "The Devil's Interval" is simply a historical reference... one that hits on global consciousness. The emotional reactions here are not surprising.
"Music is a moral law.
It give soul to the universe,
wings to the mind,
flight to the imagination,
a charm to gaiety,
and life to everything.
It is the essence of order
and leads to all that is
just and beautiful."
- Plato - kilofox, on 10/12/2007, -1/+4@Riff
What does partisan politics have to do with this? It's taking a lot of enjoyment out of Digg. - aaaaabbbbb, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3the most evil music of all isn't determined by an interval, but rather by a chord progression....
I-IV-V
;) - Yenly, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2Funny stuff... devil's note 'plus' minor pentatonic scale = blues scale
Also, the devil's note is commonly refered to as the 'blue note' - ProfessorRiffs, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2Country music has 7th chords like no tomorrow, and the tritone is the heart of a 7th chord. Also, as a person who works with musicians of all types, I can say that country musicians tend to be some of the most-schooled players around. Not that they always use a great deal of this knowledge (the country labels are by FAR the most restrictive in terms of creativity), but the studio cats in the country scene (guitar players in particular) are real pros, and they know a lot more about theory than just intervals.
- KidVicious, on 10/12/2007, -2/+4If you truly have faith, you won't be upset when others don't believe you.
And I think Pagan just pwned everybody. - derjazzmeister, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2ProfDuck Quote:
"Show me anywhere in Medieval or Renissance music that incorporates a tri-tone.
You'd be hard-pressed to find anything in the Baroque and Classical (before Beethoven) that uses it, too, since the tri-tone was a huge taboo in composition"
What are you talking about? start with Bach's WTC book I number 1. There are dominant 7ths and secondary dominant 7ths containing the tritone all over the place. Composers were playing with the tritone in a serious compositional sense a full two centuries before Bach. Go get a refresher in your music history. - bennomatic, on 10/12/2007, -1/+3@ProfDuck
That's a very good point; maybe part of that was the fact that so much of classical music at the time was tied in with religion. JS Bach, the Big Bad Mofo of the Baroque movement said at one point that his music--and please forgive my butchering of his quote--was a mere glimmering of the vast, intricate and beautiful machinery of God.
Perhaps these rules which made these sorts of interactions difficult did not come about in a vacuum, but rather were decided with guidance from above--at least from the height of a pulpit :-) - ProfDuck, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2@BassCadet
http://www2.bgfl.org/bgfl2/music_centre/piano/index.cfm?ks=g
You'll be able to hear it this way. - ColMustard, on 10/12/2007, -1/+3Here are some notes you can play if you'd like to play a tritone. The first note should be on the bottom of the chord with the second note at the top. Here they are:
C -- F#
D -- G#
E -- A#
... and so on.
Just remember that the tritone is nothing new and has all but lost its association as "the devil's interval." Tritones are as common as any other interval in Western music. Nothing special here. Move along. Now if someone can digg up an article that fully explains the Tristan chord in Wagner's Tristan and Isolde, I'll digg for sure. - ProfDuck, on 10/12/2007, -1/+3@modusop
Show me anywhere in Medieval or Renissance music that incorporates a tri-tone.
You'd be hard-pressed to find anything in the Baroque and Classical (before Beethoven) that uses it, too, since the tri-tone was a huge taboo in composition - JoeCool1986, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2Modusop is completely correct. I'm a music major (piano) and I just played a Bach prelude and fugue (Well-tempered Clavier Book 1, no. 2 in C minor, to be exact) that uses the tritone EXTENSIVELY. In fact, Baroque composers used Dim. 7th chords incessantly in the minor mode which contain not one, but TWO tritones.
Also, someone said that Classical period had far more rules than the Baroque. Unless I'm mistaken, the rules for music have progressively loosened from the Baroque on.
While there are many educated musicians on digg, there also seems to be quite a few that aren't ;) - vertinox, on 10/12/2007, -1/+3Mneitzel "Dude, early church was not in charge of anything. Check your Roman history. And yeah the church did do many bad things against the teachings of the bible. A book that if you research it , has change actually very little."
Well, I think ban in question is discussing Middle Ages Roman Catholic Church (800AD-1500AD) Church and not early Catholic Church (300-500AD)
During the early days, the Church wasn't that powerful until the collapse of the Western Roman Empire (the Byzantine Empire lived on under the Orthodox Church)
However, the Church pretty much controlled everything or at least had a leash on the European Feudal Nobels (even making them go to war in Crusades) and even owning their own Papal States and was the most powerful organization and business until the Reformation in Germany around the 1500's and when King Henry of England broke away... Then the Catholic Church lost most of its political power other than Excommunications and what not.
And yes... They did re-write the Bible and it has been under argument for Centuries. Why did King James write his own version... Heck look up Bible in Wikipedia and find out all the different versions. - OBKenobi, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2It's funny how the BBC wants to turn it into a conspiracy! Unless they're trying to highlight how ignorant the Catholic Church is? In that case, I agree.
- ProfDuck, on 10/12/2007, -1/+3Wann hear a tri-tone? Find a keyboard and play an F and a B natural.
...or listen to "Maria" from West Side Story. When Tony sings "Maria", the first 2 notes comprise a tri-tone - bwww, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2vertinox: The King James version is a *translation* from greek and hebrew into english. It is considered by many to be an accurate translation. Unlike what Dan Brown would have you believe, translating the bible from one language to another is not a conspiracy.
If you post comments telling people to read wikipedia it is often a good idea to check it yourself. - willistg, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1just the beginning and the end.
the song black sabbath by black sabbath is a more complete example. - dwhitbeck, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1The tritone by itself is not only dissonant but ambigous since it can resolve either outward or inward.
- nextyoyoma, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1Check out the wikipedia page on it, it's fairly extensive, if a bit hard to follow (even for formally trained musicians.) Interesting that he was DEFINITELY not the first person to use it.
- modusop, on 10/12/2007, -2/+3Totally incorrect - especially from a harmonic standpoint. EVERY V7 chord uses the key-defining interval we call the tritone. This has been used extensively since Buxtehude, and popularized by Bach. While you're correct in pre-Baroque styles, you have missed a very important tenet of tonal music. The tritone is one element that essentially makes tonal music Tonal!
Use of the tritone in a melodic line (i.e. using it as a leap in part writing) goes against many rules of counterpoint, and is where the "devil's interval" part comes in.
I reported as inaccurate due to the submitter's title: The Devil's Music. In no way does the use of the *interval* (harmonic) tritone make music devilish, and sensationalist headlines is what makes Digg a laughing stock among news sites. I'll be happy to answer any other music theory questions if there are any. - z0iid, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1neither does this one. why would you post a reply that has nothing to do with the article??
- FooledByRamen, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1pretty much every hardcore/metal band there is has an abundance of tritones... i've heard this about the simpsons before, too. if you know anything about music, you'd know that it shows up in a dominant seventh chord, too... which usually shows up in the some of the happiest of songs, i just hope articles like these don't bring up archaic concepts that are going to make idiots protest music that they know nothing about.
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