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75 Comments
- MarvinMan, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3That kid has got some great friends.
***** the RIAA. - inactive, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3@808kick, '08 refers to his class. Daily Princetonian is the main newspaper for Princeton University. At Princeton, we refer to everyone with their class after the name.
Daniel Peng '05, a Princeton student who was an early target of the RIAA, also raised funds from class mates to pay for his settlement a few years ago. As for comments about why Delwin Olivan being a "rich ivy league kid" needs to worry about $5,000, a large portion of Princeton students go on grants. Princeton has a fantastic need-based financial aid system. Many students pay nearly nothing at all and there are no loans.
People on this board have asked why he would settle. In such a case you always should. As you see on another Digg post, one woman was offered a $3,500 settlement, but she decided to go to court and instead is now ordered to pay $22,500 by the court (in addition to her legal fees). Intellectual property has been protected since the founding of the US, so I don't know why anyone on this board would be surprised that the court would rule against the one committing piracy.
As for suing people who have the funds to launch a strong defense against the RIAA, the RIAA probably doesn't target those people because people who have money have no reason to steal music. Why would I risk civil liability and steal from hardworking people to save me a few bucks? I feel better about buying CDs these days than giving to traditional charity. CDs don't really cost much, especially if you have a job. And with iTunes now, u can buy them a la carte to just get the songs you want.
It's funny that people on this board think the RIAA is going to die by some boycott by rebellious kids. Yes, sales have been down in recent years as the RIAA has been behind in embracing technology, but I think there are still enough honest people in the country who recognize hard work and will pay for it if the music is distributed online through a service like iTunes. Ignorance on message boards like this only encourage me to sympathize and spend more money buying music from the RIAA. - inactive, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3> 23 University students charged
The RIAA: destroying America's future one semester at a time.
> I still dislike the RIAA and their new business model cum
> extortion racket. But if you break the law you have to be
> prepared to pay the price.
This is why *EVERYONE* needs to start sharing with as wide a circle of friends as humanly possible. 3 degrees, IM clients and WASTE are your Friends.
The eventual end-game of the RIAA's efforts is to produce ubiquitous, legal file sharing through the Fair Use right that *DO* exist by way of trusted circles of known entities and the 7 degrees of separation effect.
They may not realize it, but this is what will come to pass.
> this guy will make tons of money.
The lawyers don't care where the money comes from just as long as they get paid.
> Face it, anybody can spoof an IP or MAC, so whomever is allowing
> this crap to get to court, is just plain dumb
Exactly!
So, if you want to pull some fight club *****, use census data, the phone company and your buddy tech who works for the local regional ISP to get the IP addresses/MACs of everyone who live a upper middle class neighborhood (or just war drive them) and light up the RIAA's radar with the IP addresses of people who can afford to settle.
The RIAA is not going anywhere anytime soon without the mass involvement of innocent third parties.
> here is enough plausible deniability and whatnot and everything
> else surrounding these lawsuits
Courts don't recognize "plausible denability". If anything it work exactly the opposite way with civil suites (preponderance=="plausible accountability"). Sucks, but the rule of law in America dictates that civil suites should be settled out of court (unless there's a point to be made and then it's usually a pissing contest between two entities with large sums of money).
> you can bring a countersuit,
Too bad Sony's bad behavior can't be linked to the RIAA.
> which they will, for who knows how much, but it'll be their
> legal fees defending against your bougs lawsuits
This is America; litigant with the most money wins.
Best you can hope for is a quid pro quo, but unless you have a lexus-nexus account the legal fees are going to eat you alive. - melduforx, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2"Kinda dumb to post a website pretty much admitting guilt. The RIAA is likely to withdraw their settlement offer and use his own website as evidence against him for a much higher judgement."
Um, the whole point of a settlement is that you are basically admitting guilt, but the company doesn't want the hassle of going to trial. - jasqwerty, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2@kaboom and others
Why do some people seem to think that poor people are somehow legally guaranteed shield from any debt they might incur through any action of their own or civil or criminal liability?
THEY DON'T !!!!
Yes, you can lose a civil case and owe 2 million dollars, and you won't have to pay it right away, but guess what? YOU WILL BE LEGALLY MADE TO TRY YOUR HARDEST TOO!
20% of every single penny you make from that day on will go to resolve whatever debt you owe till the day you die or the debt is paid off. Of course you have two outs here. Earn enough money to be below the poverty line, or declare bankruptcy. Now, if living below the poverty line for the rest of your life just to listen to Pop Trash Star #3471 is worth it to you, then go for it. And declaring bankrupt might work, but it some circumstances it won't. - wilf_brim, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2Nice that this guy has friends to do this for him. RIAA is running a vast greenmail campaign. I really want somebody to actually get them to PROVE that downloading 25 songs "cost" them $25,000.
- inactive, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2***** the RIAA.
- GaryK, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2At least this student was more honest than the lady who was successfully sued by RIAA and now has a ~US$23,000 judgment against her. I still dislike the RIAA and their new business model cum extortion racket. But if you break the law you have to be prepared to pay the price.
- kkaabboomm, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2"@kaboom and others"
eh?
i was just saying i kind of wish they'd sue one of us with the money and will to see it through court...i made no comment about poor people being shielded etc...yes there are a couple people going to court thus far but are relying on donations for lawyer money etc. i just think the RIAA should sue someone with alot of money, and have that person use some of their money to prove in a court of law what everyone in the world has been saying since the RIAA started their law suits - there is enough plausible deniability and whatnot and everything else surrounding these lawsuits that they are unwinnable by the RIAA if push comes to shove. it just takes alot of money to get to that point, and most people don't have that much money to fight. sad, but true. - 808kick, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2What's with the '08s after their names?
- Brett, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2He admitted guilt...plus, the RIAA has been sueing folks for years now, and he knew the risk.
"Don't do the crime, if you can't do the time" - chaos86, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2maybe he shouldn't have stolen music...
- LR2_, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2kkaabboomm, I bet the RIAA does full background checks before they go about sueing people. You would definiatly not get attacked by them if they think you can attack back.
- pkscout, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2from the article:
"Olivan does not plead innocence, only financial need."
Guess he should have thought of that *before* he decided to rip music off. I'm not a big fan of the RIAA (OK, not at all a fan), but if you're gonna do something you know is illegal, you better have a plan for how to deal with the consequences. - vernsan, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2What if we sue the RIAA for emotional distress?
- inactive, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2@Lax32, a conspiracy to launch frivilous lawsuits at the RIAA to tie up their legal resources is not going to work for the seemingly obvious fact that the people who hate the RIAA are the people who are upset they cant get free music anymore, who are likely people who can't afford to launch frivilous lawsuits. People who do have money to retain lawyers for trivial matters also earn money to afford music and likely recognize the moral necessity to pay people for their work.
- chaos86, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1"The RIAA only sues people who can't afford to defend themselves"
The majority of people who steal music are the ones who can't afford to buy it.
"filing criminal charges against them for extortion"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extortion
You can't extort someone by suing them for breaking a law. - spikebuddy, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1"The damaging party's financial situation has nothing to do with whether it should pay for damages"
You don't appreciate the difference between civil and criminal law. The RIAA can get a judgment against him. He's judgment proof if he has no assets. As wrong as he is to download, and he is, the reality is he is judgment proof and won't end up paying a dime. - inactive, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1> You can't extort someone by suing them for breaking a law.
Actually, you just might be able to if you were able to prove that the damages were exaggerated. That would fall somewhere between extortion and fraud (fraud aided and abetted by the legal system). $700 per CD sounds like way too much... and the RIAA's tactics sure haven't been dissuading anyone from sharing.
Perhaps the damages should be limited to whatever the settlement costs were going to be. In fact, that would be a really good modification for all civil suites. Before the case goes to trial, disclosure of settlement options should be required and damages that can be awarded should be limited to that amount. - uptown, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1Kinda dumb to post a website pretty much admitting guilt. The RIAA is likely to withdraw their settlement offer and use his own website as evidence against him for a much higher judgement. I guess since the site is written in the 3rd person, he may be safe from that ... but still kinda dumb.
Yes ... he'll make over $5k. - MischievousPuck, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1Personal opinion on the copyright implications and issues with P2P in relation to the RIAA aside, please do not bring up MAC and IP spoofing as a defense.
Learn what you are talking about before you spout it as fact. Unless the other peer is inside the same subnet neither of these is an effective operation. Even then it is a non trivial operation with most modern broadband connections. Do at least some reading on ARP, Level 2 networking, what IP Spoofing can and can not do. Key points: 1) 99% of the peers you connect to are at least 2 hops away. 2) In order to effectively receive anything the packets need to be able to be routed to you.
If you want anonymity then war drive or use a zombie/bounce, but don't rely on the "my address must have been spoofed" as a defense. It won't cut it. - inactive, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1> please do not bring up MAC and IP spoofing as a defense.
Actually, I hate to break it to you, but the IP address assignment to MAC address association that provides "proof" of identity is far more vulnerable that you could possibly imagine.
Hell, many ISPs' DHCP servers don't even prevent handing out multiple IP address to the same "customer" and some will even allow multiple MAC address to IP address associations. Let's not even get started talking about what it would take to, say, forge a DHCP lease termination... and then obtain a new lease with a forged MAC before the target's overwhelmed bridge can manage to get a word in "edge-wise". Maybe we should talk about span ports or dynamic allocation of additional comm channels (who says they don't have a deprecated RADIUS server still using dial-on-demand to allocate PPPoE a secondary channel).
Perhaps we should talk about source routing, poorly configured routers and ISPs who allow packets out with source addresses that aren't even from the same side of the planet.
Really... the ways to spoof someones IP address are endless. Yes, some of them more technically difficult than other, but none of them are "impossible". - DogHumpsMonkey, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1Yeah, that seemed called for. Dick.
- inactive, on 10/12/2007, -1/+2it's a great scam to earn some quick buck. remember Lokitorrent?
there are enough brain-dead anti-RIAA morons who will donate him money just because he tells everyone he's against RIAA. - MischievousPuck, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1You are actually proving my point, not vice versa. Guee what? If the provider is not locking by MAC it is a VERY safe bet they are not relying upon it for identification. Second, IP Spoofing has some great uses and is trivial to accomplish true. It is also not possible to receive communication on an IP out of the range in which you reside. So exactly how are you sharing files on that spoofed address that people can not reach you on? and if it is a spoofed address on the same segment then it is not exactly hard to track now is it?
- inactive, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1Hey, one other thing:
If *ANY* of you find yourself on a jury in one of these cases, you better put your fscking money where you mouth is and invoke your right to jury nullification.
You'll get thrown off the court or possibly expelled from the Jury, but it'll cost both the lawyers/court time/money and may produce change eventually. - dynamx, on 10/12/2007, -1/+2that's funny....an ivy league student worrying about $5000.
- daving31, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1the funny thing is, if no one shared...there'd be no downloading of music.
- lollerskates, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1I bet the RIAA just throws darts at a circular list of names and picks one to sue.
- SniperGX1, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1The RIAA only sues people who can't afford to defend themselves, has anyone thought of filing criminal charges against them for extortion? Thats what I would do if I was victimized by them.
- RMuffin, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1He'd be stupid to go to court. I read about a woman being sued $60 a song for far less. The RIAA had a list of 4000 some, give them the $5000 flip them the bird and move on.
- inactive, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1@anonymoustroll (0)
"You sound like a conflicted prick who just doesn't understand social injustice with it's throw in your face... or maybe it's just my mistaken opinion that it's really bad karma to sue single moms, grandmothers on fixed incomes and students out of more than they probably make in a year."
The damaging party's financial situation has nothing to do with whether it should pay for damages. Should old people be sent to prison for committing crimes if they'd be sent there for more years than they have to live? Of course. The perpetrator's ability to take the punishment has no bearing on what punishment fits the crime. Saying, I can't afford to go to prison for the next 10 years because I have stuff to do is not a valid defense. I do see social injustice when its thrown in my face, but apparently you do not. The only social injustice here are the people being robbed of their life's work. - pdlevin, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1all i have to say is when i get caught my friends better do this for me
- maskin1, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1I don't think the RIAA or any body will succeed in sueing someone from china or any of the asian countries. Heck! 90% of the music and videos sold in these markets are pirated. Recently one of my friends who went to bankok came back with a couple of video DVDs and music CDs. All of them pirated and he got it for a fraction of what he would have to shell out for original ones.
Instead of harassing such poor students, these biggies should take on the organised piracy market.
btw, I am against piracy. - Leonaken, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1He's raising the money to give in to their demands? So I take it he's feeling guilt and is willing to be spanked for his wrong doings...?
- Lax32, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1Im telling you guys.
Every single person in America that hates the RIAA needs to band together and bring up bogus lawsuits for various things at around the same time. Im no legal guru or anything, but Id imagine they have to send SOME representative to appear in court during the date, so then we watch them freak out when they realize they need personell for millions of cases... - rm999, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1kkaabboomm
Actually, the more money you have the more you have to lose. If you download 100 songs, the RIAA can take > 10 million dollars from you BY LAW. A good defense may get that amount down by a considerable amount, but won't neccesarily win you the case. - gheide, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1I would like to know how the RIAA determines that an IP or MAC address is tied to a person. Face it, anybody can spoof an IP or MAC, so whomever is allowing this crap to get to court, is just plain dumb. And in cases where grandpa is being sued over something the grandson did - come on... What about just raising money to buy the CD's the kid 'supposedly' downloaded? Or are they going to court solely on the "sharing" issue?? The RIAA can kiss my A$$ETS.
- shuffle, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1They will raise tons of cash if they play their cards right. 'tis the power of the Internet man. Go pirates!
- jasqwerty, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1I smell ***** somewhere around this statement:
"When the three-inch-thick outline of the court case against me arrived in the mail, I realized I really had no choice but to settle"
Whoa, if the RIAA actually thought each case through enough to roughly write 1500 pages concerning it, what the hell is the point of the settlement offers?
The case is already put together, and your lawyers are salaried, so you're paying your lawyers whether they sit around eating donuts or appearing in court. - jasqwerty, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1You know Lax32, that with any lawsuit, you can bring a countersuit, which they will, for who knows how much, but it'll be their legal fees defending against your bougs lawsuits at least.
- fennec, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1From the article:
"The shirts bear a likeness of Olivan akin to the iconic visage of Argentinian-born revolutionary Che Guevara."
Aparently they don't know how Che Guevara ended. I mean besides ending as poster boy for Rage against the Machine. - jasqwerty, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1@kkaabboomm NOT kaboom
Quite a confusing situation I suppose, but I wasn't referring to your comment. There's another guy here on digg, named kaboom, and he made a post here. It's two posts above my poor people one. :-)
Just because you think I spelled something incorrectly doesn't mean in fact I did. :-) - jasqwerty, on 10/12/2007, -1/+1@gheide
Shutup you, the IP issue has been raised numerous times and thoroughly proven to be a moot point. Anybody can spoof an IP address? How dull witted are you?
And yes dumbass, the 'sharing' issue is the part that breaks copyright law. You know, can't disseminate someone elses work without their permission. - inactive, on 10/12/2007, -2/+2"Less of a chance of getting caught, and a much bigger chance of being a leaching *****. Use AllOfMP3.com instead of leaching."
everyone has the right to leeech, ass *****. - Nullifidian, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0Now wouldn't it be funny if someone burned copies CD's and sold them to pay their fee's.
- inactive, on 10/12/2007, -1/+1> It's funny that people on this board think the RIAA is going to die
> by some boycott by rebellious kids.
Yeah... The best way for the RIAA is to be a part of my business model.
> [...]Princeton has a fantastic need-based financial aid system[...]
yet in the same breath:
> [...] the RIAA probably doesn't target those people because people
> who have money
You sound like a conflicted prick who just doesn't understand social injustice with it's throw in your face... or maybe it's just my mistaken opinion that it's really bad karma to sue single moms, grandmothers on fixed incomes and students out of more than they probably make in a year. - smablue, on 10/12/2007, -1/+1"Good for the RIAA." by gotamd
Shut up digg basher, and get the hell off a site you hate. - inactive, on 10/12/2007, -1/+1> Guess he should have thought of that *before* he decided to rip music
Yeah... fortunately, I live in a country where I can rent a CD @ ~$1 for an entire week.
"Land of the Free", ha!
> you better have a plan for how to deal with the consequences.
Sounds like they do have a plan... which is more than I can say for you. -
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