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Hip-Hop Culture is not Black Culture.

sacbee.com — Over the past three decades black culture has grown so conflated with hip-hop culture that for most Americans under the age of 45, hip-hop culture is black culture. Except that it's not.

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  • Shakermaker, on 10/11/2007, -180/+32False.
    • sweetdeals, on 10/11/2007, -15/+60Did you even read the article? He makes some good points. But hey, if you can sum all his ideas up into one word, then you're a better person than I.
    • canewediggit, on 10/11/2007, -15/+39how insightful. did you bother to read the article?

      edit- damn your fast fingers sweetdeals!!
    • saleem, on 10/11/2007, -9/+36this was an excellent article, shaker's an idiot.
    • stlcadet11, on 10/11/2007, -10/+20***** nondeletable comments...
    • fnaqzna, on 10/11/2007, -8/+19Oh yeah... we read it.

      "there are no two ways about it -- hip-hop culture is not black culture, it's black street culture."
    • lordtyros, on 10/11/2007, -13/+26I honestly hope that some diggers read this and take it to heart before commenting on the next article regarding race. Painting an entire race with the same broad brush does nothing but hinder any progress that might be made.
    • CZzyzx41, on 10/11/2007, -7/+118What'd you call me? Oh. Digger. Well then, carry on.
    • unibomber999, on 10/11/2007, -8/+17Just what do you mean by the word "diggers", lordtyros?
      ---
      aargh, bested by the one with the unpronounceable name.
    • raynar, on 10/11/2007, -29/+3um.. werd up? dawg?
    • W00DR0W, on 10/11/2007, -37/+31It is False. Black people don't get their values from the street, what an asinine thing to say.

      It's bad enough that people like Al Sharpton try to speak for me, but it's even worse when a white person does it, especially one who's examined half-baked studies on "street life".

      Ask any middle-class black person if this article has even a ring of truth to it; in fact, ask any white guy who has black friends.
      Hip Hop doesn't represent all black people but this article seems to think so.

      And why the hell is this under Music when it's clearly some guy's political opinion blog?
    • sockpuppets, on 10/11/2007, -6/+97Digga please.
    • audiowizard, on 10/11/2007, -7/+13Does this mean Al Sharpton, Colin Powell, and Barack Obama aren't hip hoppas?

      Awww man I'm so confused...
    • drakethegreat, on 10/11/2007, -9/+56@W00DR0W

      I'm sorry but I disagree. I do have black friends and actually its quite interesting. One of my friends in a computer nerd who reads digg like yourself. You guys are exceptions though. Since I have friends who seems to want to emulate MTV 24/7 (really they aren't friends as much as guys I been around enough just out of chance). All they do is talk about getting faded 24/7, which bitch they got on last, whose going to the club, etc. These aren't even broke black guys either. Don't get me wrong I want you guys to succeed but claiming this isn't affecting you guys and that this article is false is just pure BS and we all know it. The class president of my high school gave a speech about how much ***** comes from the black community when you try to achieve. Getting called and oreo is reality in black culture so obviously you're experience maybe different but that doesn't mean this isn't true for a lot of black people out there.
    • ahawks, on 10/11/2007, -16/+7False.

      Bears beats Battlestar Galactica.
    • russvan, on 10/11/2007, -12/+4hey, arent you that digger guy?
    • ilyag, on 10/11/2007, -12/+97What is it about so many black Americans that makes them act in such self-destructive ways? It's really baffling. It's an entire culture of self-destruction.

      As a white observer, all I can imagine is that the main reason for this "racial" (or cultural) difference is the fact that black people do not want to be like white people. Black people are consciously separating themselves from white America. What is the reason for wanting to be different? I mean, okay, your skin color is different. SO WHAT!? Just because you have a different shade of skin doesn't mean that you should force yourself and your family to BE different. You're still human beings. Just act *natural*. Don't try to discourage others from blending into their communities (by calling them "Oreos" or discouraging good grades while in school).

      It's like the language thing. The accent. Black people talk in their own dialect. Why? If you live in New York, why do you not speak in a New York accent? If you live in Minnesota, why do you not have a Minnesota accent? It's all a conscientious choice on the part of the families and the black community at large to separate themselves from "whites". It's self-destructive and asinine, and it only happens in America. In England, black people speak with English accents and generally conform to the culture they live in. In France, they speak French in a normal French dialect. What is it about American blacks, then? What the hell is going on?

      This is the reason so many white people are racists. They respond negatively to this "separation" that blacks force upon themselves, whether it's from language, behavior, or lifestyle choices. Sure, some white racists contribute to the separation, but more often than not you will hear even these racists saying how they have no problems with blacks who don't wear do-rags into their 40s and go, "Yo, what up, *****" to their 8 year old children.

      I know I'm white when I say all this, but even when prominent leaders within the black community speak up about this -- people like Bill Cosby -- they instantly get blasted and ridiculed. Insanity!
    • W00DR0W, on 10/11/2007, -8/+11@ drakethegreat

      So the black people who are your friends, do not fit what this article describes. But the black acquaintances you've met, do?

      If you don't know them closely than why do you think you understand them? You half proved my point, the black people you know don't fit this article's description. I'm sure if you got to know those other people you're talking about, they wouldn't either.

      This is exactly the problem, people like to judge us from a satellite view, and they usually judge us wrong.
      Also, I'm not a nerd, and I'm no exception.
    • Ninjab3ar, on 10/11/2007, -5/+30Well, tell BET to change their name. Thats a start...
    • barrimon, on 10/11/2007, -9/+17Nice premise, but he didn't make it clear enough. Its not "black street culture" its "street culture" in general. Columbian and Russian gangs are no less violent or misogynist than anything that occurs in America.

      I also think this guy is confusing hip-hop (which doesn't come on the radio and has little or no references to drug dealing and misogyny) with commercial rap music (which does come on the radio and contains all of the offending references he spoke of). Most hip-hop artists also complain about the fact that record labels don't support albums or artists with positive messages.

      What a fantasy that article was; as if black people's problems started in the late 70's early 80s with the birth of hip-hop. Rap didn't even turn "gangsta" until the late 80's. Rap music was pretty positive before that. I happen to think poverty and neighborhoods with drug cultures having a lot to do with it.

      To paraphrase a 2pac quote: "What most black people have in common with other black people across the US is that they or their relatives all have one thing in common, poverty." I couldn't put it any clearer than that.

      I don't know how much research he did, but I don't think I saw anything referring to entrenched poverty having an effect on the culture or education.... strange.
    • Robotsu, on 10/11/2007, -9/+15The only people who get their moral, ethical and social frameworks from musical lyrics and fashion are already lost souls, I fear. And to assume that a majority of an educated middle-class Black segment of the population are more susceptible to falling victim to the vain pursuit of fitting in and being cool while pushing aside their scholarly pursuits just seems racist and idiotic to me. This article smacks of a man who hasn't entered the real world in over a decade, who lives a sheltered existence, opining on subjects he knows little about and wants to fill in the gaps with unsupported suppositions and quasi-facts (still not a single one cited).

      I don't like Hip-Hop, I don't like Hip-Hop culture. In fact, you might say I loathe it, but this is ***** ridiculous. Was 80's Hair Metal representative of "White Culture" in the 80's? Was Death Metal? Was it a singularly distruptive force that bound and compelled it's listeners towards the attitudes and actions that the lyrics espoused in the music? No. And might I reiterate, that the ones who would have done so would have found provocation elsewhere; if you are that base you hardly need somebody encouraging you to find yourself afoul of morality.

      "But in black America the folly is so commonplace it fails to attract serious attention. Like neurotics obsessed with amputating their own healthy limbs, middle-class blacks concerned with "keeping it real" are engaging in gratuitously self-destructive and violently masochistic behavior."

      Wow, the 1950's called and they want their base, insulting, racist and generally degrading commentary back. I have known more middle-class WHITE kids get too caught up in "keeping it real" (Jesus Tap-Dancing Christ, where are they getting this lingo from? "Those damn kids and their music and they're 'keeping it real', back in MY day...", "Oh no, there Grandpa goes again..") than any of the middle-class kids I knew of Black pigmentation.

      I'm quoting this buried comment for truth, from a man who I assume would know his own culture better than I do:

      "It is False. Black people don't get their values from the street, what an asinine thing to say.

      It's bad enough that people like Al Sharpton try to speak for me, but it's even worse when a white person does it, especially one who's examined half-baked studies on "street life".

      Ask any middle-class black person if this article has even a ring of truth to it; in fact, ask any white guy who has black friends.
      Hip Hop doesn't represent all black people but this article seems to think so.

      And why the hell is this under Music when it's clearly some guy's political opinion blog?"
    • W00DR0W, on 10/11/2007, -1/+7@karmaticrogue

      You know, I'm not sure you should be calling [Digg] retarded. Digg let's you filter out non-tech stories if you want, dumb-ass.

    • knde, on 10/11/2007, -2/+42@ilyag

      For the life of me I do not understand that particular group of Black Americans. At first I reacted to them with curiousity, then some amusement and eventually downright disgust. I'm Black British and the amount of scorn and hostility I received from Black Americans, whilst in the US (Western PA), was astounding!

      They'd rather speak as though they haven't been fortunate enough to live in a country, where basic education is free. They refuse to step outside of the stereotypes they have so narrowly defined for themselves. They are so insecure and buy into that ridiculous notion of "selling out." They rail against you for not speaking like them/dressing like them. They imbibe that ludicrous group mentality to the fullest and then have the nerve to tell me I'm "not keeping it real" when I embrace my individuality to the fullest.

      I remember explaining to my American boyfriend's family that even though they must think I'm ever so foreign (English father, Sierra Leonean mother), that I'm actually much more similar to them than I am to certain types of Black Americans that are so prevalent in the US media.

      In sympathy I realise that their past history may play a role in such behaviour. But for Heaven’s sake – get over it! And do right by the upstanding and courageous men and women who came before you and overcame far worse than the so called “racism” you now face.

      P.S I don’t know whether to laugh or cry about this but on explaining to a black male from Philadelphia, that I was African and frequently visited Africa, he had this to say:

      “Wow….you African! Sheeet…..you run about with lions and tigers??? You don’t look like no African to me – no distended stomach or flies…..Wow! How’d you get here???” (And a bevy of other stupid questions to boot).”

      And such idiots want to be called African-American. Dear Lord.


    • barrimon, on 10/11/2007, -11/+19@ilyag

      You lack a great deal of understanding on this subject. Black people very much wanted to assimilate into white culture for decades, remember the Civil Rights movement? You act like its so easy. You don't seen any problems. Its not only black people that question you when you do well. White people and other races do too. How do you think that feels, when you're smart and or successful and people say you're not really black. Happens to me. Happens to other people. Obama is called "half-rican" or a mulatto or other code words meaning he's not really black. Think of any other successful mixed black person and their other ethnicity(s) come up much more often. Yet when they do poorly, they're easily accepted as black.

      This country has made "black/urban" synonymous with countless unwanted attributes: uneducated, gangs, criminal, loud, violent, crack dealing, weed smoking.... Notice how often "urban" or black is used to mean terrible; "urban" schools, etc... The question for black people is do you want to be "black" or do you want to be successful or "white". Its a false choice. Either way you have to choose against yourself.

      Blacks in England were more accepted than blacks in the US. England did NOT the military babies of black serviceman (with white women) back to the US because of the harsh racial environment (Jim Crow) at the time. Blacks in other countries think of themselves more as citizens of their country because their country thinks of them as citizens. Blacks in the US have always gotten "special" treatment in the US mostly on signs that read "Keep Out".

      Of course you get people trying to find their own identity (formulating their own accents) when they're not accepted by the society that they live in. Don't bring up the last 20 years. Interracial dating was HUGE in the 80s. Its still a big deal when its on TV now. The US is VERY RACIALIZED. Interracial relationships are no big deal in Europe. They have interracial ads and TV shows all of the time. Even now interracial (with black people) relationships on TV spark conversation.

      Sir/Madam, please remove your rose-colored glasses.


    • bradmoreland, on 10/11/2007, -10/+11Oh..."naggers". Of course.
    • noisymime, on 10/11/2007, -8/+7I'm sorry but both this article and 80% of the comments here make one wildly ignorant assumption that is insanely annoying:
      Hip Hop is not limited to America!

      There are thriving hip-hop scenes in England, New Zealand, Russia and especially my country, Australia. It's not the hip-hop that most American's would recognise though. There's no gangsta crap, there's no stupid bling (WTF is up with teeth 'grills'?) and there's certainly no 'black culture'. There is, however, a lot of talent and some very impressive and original music coming out. In fact, many consider it purer hip-hop than what is currently going on in the US as its more akin to what was happening there in the 70's and 80's.

      So that's an opinion from a non-American. I know, it may sound strange at first, but please try to accept it. The last thing a lot of people in the world think when they think hip-hop is 'black culture'
    • audiowizard, on 10/11/2007, -1/+2What's all this Bullpucky about 'Black Street Culture'?!?!?!

      You really want these guys to represent the descendants of African slaves?

      http://image.listen.com/img/356x237/7/1/1/2/562117_356x237.jpg
    • Qchan, on 10/11/2007, -3/+7@barrimon

      I have to agree with this person here. At one time, blacks did try to assimilate with the white culture. However, they were prevented from doing so. The Jim Crow laws have a lot to do with that. However, blacks haven't tried making their own culture until the Harlem Renaissance. That was around the time blacks grew very angry with society. From that time frame, Malcolm X appeared and the Black Panthers and Martin Luther King Jr. and etc. There was a lot of stuff going on around that period of time that many people don't seem to talk about a lot. However, after the Harlem Renaissance, blacks ended up with their own culture and created their own racial identity in the United States. This is why you see such a vast difference between blacks and whites nowadays -- as far as culture is concerned. I have to admit that it's going down hill, but it's been going down hill for several years now.

      We cannot blame rap or hip hop for how many blacks act today. This has more to do with family "completeness" that is lacking in the black community. What I mean by that is that many black families lack a father figure. This is mainly due to the fact that the black men are either 1) In Jail 2) Dating women of difference races 3) Dead. Because of this, there are a shortage of good black men. This is a cultural problem that has existed since the late 70s - early 80s. The basic black family has been torn apart due to many events in time that have occurred in the black community. When a male child grows up without a father, they tend to try and find a role model to replace that "father figure". What they typically do is replace that figure with someone who is famous, appears cool and has a lot of money. Those models end up being rappers. So, a child grows up thinking it's ok to be like their favorite rapper. So, as time progresses, they tend to do things they shouldn't do and end up either 1) In jail, 2) dead 3) Having children and then abandoning them and etc. So, then the cycle starts up all over again. For black females without fathers, they are typically taught to find a man who can take care of them; a man that has a lot of money and will wine and dine them. So, these black females pursue flashy men who happened to be the ones that grow up with rapper role models, and guess what happens? The process repeats over again. The black male impregnates the female (often times at an early age), the male leaves because he hasn't learned responsibility yet, the female raises the child by herself and resents men because of her experience and teaches her daughter to go after a man that is successful, has money and will take care of her. See the pattern?

      So, in conclusion, it's not hip hop or rap that is the problem. It's a family issue that has been torn apart and was stuck in repetition. Is there a way to fix it? I don't know. I certain hope there's something out there that will.
    • maiku00, on 10/11/2007, -2/+4whatever the color, its ass ***** retarded
    • maiku00, on 10/11/2007, -2/+61. drum track
      2. whistles
      3. ???
      4. PROFIT!!!
    • rpgmaker, on 10/11/2007, -3/+1TRUE Hip-Hop is death btw.
    • bitcloud, on 10/11/2007, -3/+4Hip-Hop is a much bigger genre than the author of this article apparently realises...

      He is refering to "Gangster Hip-Hop" - thats a US black street culture for sure. There are also forms of white gangster hip-hop in australia (but they suck) and really as many other forms of hip-hop with as many different racial or violence/non-violence links as there are forms of classical music or jazz... Hell, white guys were doing beat poetry, and mongolians were rhythmically chanting long before Afrika Bambaataa was even a twinkle in his mama's eye...

      the http://inoveryourhead.net podcast (out of montreal) plays heaps of alternative hip-hop (and nary a gangster track to be found)
      There's more to the world than the simplistic understandings of racial or musical identities propounded by the US...
    • DJCult, on 10/11/2007, -2/+1Man, I'm not even going to touch this comment conversation.
    • tim04, on 10/11/2007, -0/+2true...but its kind of hard to distinguish the difference with all these hardcore gangsta black teens stomping about
    • blackdude, on 10/11/2007, -1/+3@robotsu + I perfectly agree.

      I want to add something however. Back when the Don Imus thing came up and made national headlines it was amazing to see the amount of debating of differences between cultures. Unfortunately it's sad but there's heavy racism on both sides. And to say that Al Sharpton SPEAKS for black people is just total ignorance. Since when did one black guy who causes "drama" by jumping on some white person's tail when they do something wrong, speak for the black people? He doesn't. So, why don't we shut Al Sharpton up? Well, to be frank, he's not directly hurting us; so we don't really care.

      To flip that around, why don't people shut Bill O' Reily up? I have no idea. That's the sickest man to existence in my book. And it definately isn't because he is white. But enough of that. What I am getting to is, this article is made by another white guy who hasn't thorooughly studied the black situation deep enough to even understand it.

      Black people want to assimilate into society however, it's not as easy as you think. If you wan't to really associate with different races you have to be able to reach out, in other words, get off your ass. Getting off your ass isn't easy at all. Hell, if you put it into perspective, really neither many whites or blacks really trying to assimilate with each other because of that very reason. They are comfortable in their position. And that is why you have totally different cultures because people like staying close to who their "kin" to. Then you have to start doing things you never done before. Successful examples of black people assimilating into society would be: Michael Jordan, Jay-Z?, Kanye West, Kobe?, etc. There's black people that do mix with the majority however, you don't see it going the other way around. I honestly can't name a person, except Eminem that I know of that is caucasian that has actually taken a chance on black living. Im not saying it's lavish or anything but you get the idea.

      A black person growing up in drugs, sex, and violence will most likely be heavily influenced by that. Same thing goes for the rich preppy boy. And while you're sitting in your middle class happy neighborhood where violence is 100X lower than the ghetto saying how you don't understand why people act like they have no sense then you definately don't understand the underlinings of your average "street" black guy. "It's his parent's faullt"; unfortunately he will be like his parents; it's like slavery without a choice & laziness combined.

      Im black and I live pretty well, middle class kid and iv'e went to schools w/ 1/3 black people and the rest being white. This article in my eyes is disgusting ignorant; it's not even valid. It's like "left-wing" to me. There's so many black people who aren't even the ghetto anymore, it's not even funny. We aren't hard to find, maybe it's time for you to get up off your ass? Man, seriously, articles like this make me want to smack back; it's just amazingly insulting & ignorant.
    • barrimon, on 10/11/2007, -0/+1@gchan

      A lot of people here are assuming that blacks have never tried to better themselves. There have been many times when blacks fought and earned a small amount of independents but whatever they had was destroyed or commandeered by greedy or jealous capitalists/racists at the time.

      There was a thriving community in Arkansas that was ransacked, my dad personally told me of a Harlem-style Renaissance area that sprang up in Detroit, financed through of-the-books bookies, because people couldn't get bank loans. The City of Detroit later built a freeway through this area.

      I'm not making excuses, but there are REAL REASONS blacks are in the situation they are and it isn't because they want to be. Few other ethnicities (including immigrants) have had to endure the
      -constant economic strife,
      -lynching,
      -poor schools,
      -dumping of pollution in their neighborhoods,
      -federally-subsidized racism (in the form of redlining),
      -drugs in most/all of their neighborhoods,
      -constant and high inability to get bank loans in the areas they live in,
      -assassination of civil leaders,
      -high levels of incarceration,
      -special drug laws (crack vs cocaine sentences),
      -assassination of nonviolent community groups (Black Panthers),
      -federal neglect during disasters (60s New Orleans flood/Katrina),

      This list is a lot longer and is in no way comprehensive. As far as fatherless families goes, most of this country is now single-parent homes. 50.1-51%, look it up.

      No one ever seems to recognize the privileges that they have like, educated parents who speak the language well. Kids get 50% of their parents vocab, look it up. Parents who subsidize their education or siblings/friends/family who've been through higher education and can support you through it. Parents who own businesses. Give me a effing break Hip-hop has nothing to do with the present condition of blacks in America.
    • hfactor, on 10/11/2007, -0/+2"Hip Hop is not Black Culture"... Hm... Well then. What IS Black Culture? I hoped the article would give me some insight, but nah. Can anyone provide a few links to studies, articles or whatever about what black culture in the US actually comprises? (Don´t digg me down for being ignorant, I´m not from the US and I don´t just want to believe my TV.)
    • KingLukas, on 10/11/2007, -0/+0OK do any of you guys know one black person ,that isn't a geek and doesn't "hate" hip-hop, that doesn't listen to hip-hop at least 1 time a day?
    • Qchan, on 10/11/2007, -0/+0@barrimon

      It may be 50% for the entire country, but it's 95% for blacks in America. If you compare percentages of black families without fathers as opposed to white families without fathers and asian families without fathers, the percentages for blacks absolutely dwarf any other race. It's a huge problem and there's no way to prove that it's a non issue. It's a huge issue and it needs to be addressed one way or the other.
  • theblueprint, on 10/11/2007, -11/+95Good article.

    I've loved hip-hop since I've been old enough to pick my own music. I'm also white, middle-class, and from Ohio. I've never confused my ethnicity with my choice of culture. However, I live in a poor section of town now, and I'm amazed at how many white kids think that they have to affect "black" postures to be "down".

    Sadly, with the rise in popularity of southern hip-hop, the culture itself has reduced itself to a crack version of the original culture. Sure, there was some misogyny and violence, but current "rap stars" have reduced their race to stereotyped clowns. I'm not even black, and I'm embarrassed when I watch 106 & Park.

    I find myself yearning for the days of Wu-Tang Clan, Rawkus records, Gang Starr, etc. I'm so sick of "artists" celebrating the worst of what a once-vibrant culture had to offer.
    • SpaceMonkeyZero, on 10/11/2007, -9/+69Hip Hop nowadays is nothing but a minstrel show. In the early to mid 80s it was a legitimate form of music.
    • whoaohh, on 10/11/2007, -3/+59there is still a thriving underground hip-hop community.
      it's the stuff that gets to mainstream radio that gives the culture a bad name.
    • MikeonTV, on 10/11/2007, -23/+2"...and from Ohio"

      That explains it.
    • slamtv7, on 10/11/2007, -2/+30As Nas says, Hip Hop is dead. And it is so true, MIMS, Jim Jones? What the hell is that crap? What happened to common, wu tang, krs-one, mos def. Today's "hip hop" is just a bunch of crap with stupid lyrics like "Im hot cause im fly you aint cause you not". Oh damn, thats so thoughtful man. Not. I don't know how we could fix todays hip hop culture, all these little kids who think MIMS is real hip hop is what is driving the industry into the ground. There is "underground" I suppose which is where the real artist reside because they don't get any airtime, I'm just afraid these will fade because mainstream is such crap.
    • boredsam, on 10/11/2007, -5/+10@whoaohh
      While there are exceptions to every rule, the major consumers of "underground hip hop" are suburban white kids. Even militant groups like Public Enemy, who lamented on this fact, knew this.
    • Light11, on 10/11/2007, -0/+8they are all still around.. just not mainstream. i find myself having to dig for good music now a days..
    • Snorglorf, on 10/11/2007, -3/+23If you gave Crown City Rockers, Blackalicious, Jedi Mind Tricks and Lyrics Born a chance, you would know that hip-hop in the 00's is not as dead as you ignorant blind whiners say it is.
    • OMGWTFROFLMAOx2, on 10/11/2007, -11/+23Because Luke, Flava Flav, Biz Markie, Akinyele, Roxanne, Slick Rick, etc. were all examples of proud black artists right? Stop kidding yourself.

      Their lyrics were as raunchy, if not worse, than what we have today. With the exception of a few artists in the early 90's, the messages have all been the same throughout hip hop's lifetime. They have all been, as the article states, a reflection of black street culture; and since the late 70's, black street culture has been getting worse and worse (due to many factors). The early-mid 90's may have had some of the best lyricists in hip hop's history, but it was still the same *****; partying, tough guy, bragging, money, girls/bitches/hoes, and so forth. Even during the 80's, this is what hip hop was about.

      Also Rawkus was never big because the artists never went mainstream. Those types of acts are still very much alive but guess where they aren't. That's right, the mainstream..just like Rawkus.

      P.S. Kids these days don't know anything about Rock and Roll, back in my day we had the Beatles. Now that was Rock and Roll, not this KISS and The Rolling Stones garbage.
    • cugar, on 10/11/2007, -3/+3hip hop has always been not mainstream and underground select from a few artists, anything on the radio today i consider rap

      you want hip hop you have to dig and look around, theres some good stuff coming out of sweden and of course theres tons of artists which im sure people will list through out this post such as sage francis, p.o.s. etc etc etc theres tons
    • holygram, on 10/11/2007, -1/+5Real hip hop is (nearly) dead. Its all contractual and about money-making now.

      Though, there are still people like Jurassic 5, JMT, Canibus, Outerspace, Del, etc...
    • bobcrotch, on 10/11/2007, -5/+4Just like any other music genre you're going to try and have purist tell you that your favorite group isn't real and that it's fake and ruining the genre.

      Hip Hop isn't dead at all it's just changed. If you still like listening to the same groups then keep on doing it. The fact is that there are other 'real' hip hop groups out there that you're probably to ignorant to even listen to, so keep on thinking your favorite genre is dead everyone else will keep on enjoying it.
    • alucinor, on 10/11/2007, -1/+5Just got back from a music festival near Kansas City called Wakarusa. There was a good amount of hip-hop there, as well as jazz, jamgrass, totally off the wall stuff like Les Claypool, and the crazy raver *****. While the predominant medium for this cultural melange was the hippy, there was a fair representation of all the major styles. But the main thing they had in common was what I think the black culture, hip-hop, hippies, goths, punkers -- you name it -- all have in common:

      There is something terribly wrong with modern civilization that sucks the soul out of living. All these people long to return to a more tribal, down-to-earth, "keepin-it-real" nature. Even white obnoxious frat boys before they go on to become pale sniveling middle managers and executives display a subconscious desire to return to the European's barbaric viking roots when they engage in their collegiate debauchery.
    • walkingdogs, on 10/11/2007, -0/+16The big problem is that MTV has blurred the lines between rap that is hip-hop and rap that is just rap. Gangsta rap is not hip hop, dirty south rap is not hip hop, west coast hyphy is not hip hop, crunk music is not hip hop. Many people can live the hip hop lifestyle but the music they listen to may just be rap and not hip hop. If we deblurred the lines and focused on their specific genres within rap, hip hop wouldn't be so close to dead. There are countless hip hop acts out there that will keep the movement going for the foreseeable future but as long as we market all rap as hip hop and feed it to 14-15 year old kids who have no understanding of what they are listening to let alone what is really good, hip hop is doomed.
    • mickeyknoxxx, on 10/11/2007, -10/+3Underground Hip-Hop is too "metaphorical, hysterical, lyrical, lyricals." I hate that *****.

      It's a bunch a white dudes who can't say I'll shoot somebody so they lyrically shoot somebody with their lyrical missiles.

      Commercial hip-hop is just an over saturated, over commercialized, bunch of crap with a good beat that women want to dance to at the club.

      Until I hear another song thats on the level of a "Juicy" or a "Dear Mama" Hip-Hop will always be *****.

      I'm a white hip-hop artist and I had to mix it with rock to get anywhere, because I was too white for black people and too black for white people.
    • cam2009, on 10/11/2007, -1/+7I don't want to claim I know a whole lot of good modern hip-hop, I just don't want to sift through all the crap, but it certainly is out there. Try Aesop Rock and K-OS. Labor Days from Aesop rock is a lyrical masterpiece, and Joyful Rebellion from K-OS is definitely fresh and original.
    • boredsam, on 10/11/2007, -0/+6@holygram
      Music is a business, business is about making money. Recall the rather large gold chains that were so prominently displayed on the well-shaved chest of LL Cool J?

      @cugar
      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hip_hop_music . Just read the first paragraph, it will clear up the hip hop vs rap thing.

      @theblueprint
      While you can argue that their production and flow are second to none, don't point to the Wu as a group that doesn't celebrate the worst part of society. Read the intro to the song "Method Man": http://www.azlyrics.com/lyrics/wutangclan/methodman.html
    • TheBEAST205, on 10/11/2007, -8/+3The problem I have with "hip-hop" is the lack of talent. Lyrically it isn't bad, but writing down a poem and making a "beat" to it just shouldn't really be considered music. There is very little musical talent involved in hip-hop and that's why I don't enjoy it.

      And before any one says "OMG, they have no money and they are on the streets." Jimi Hendirx grew up in a very poor family and had no mother, got his first guitar when he was a teenager that he bought himself and didn't take one guitar lesson his whole life and became arguably one of the best guitarists in the world.
    • norman619, on 10/11/2007, -2/+7Hip Hop today has been perverted into a marketing tool. Hip hip used to have a real message. Make intelligent social commentary. Today it's all about bling, drungs, and loose women. Sad thing is the kids are the ones that help purpetuate this nonsense. It's sad when the closest thing we have today to what Hip Hop used to be is eminem.
    • snipes, on 10/11/2007, -0/+6What this article, and a lot of people should realize is that over the past about 10 years, there's been a genre of music that has formed _because_ of hip hop, but ruined hip hop...I'm guessing it's 'rap' but I'm not sure. But it's become very mainstream and has blurred what real hip hop is. All the gun bussin stuff and *****' bitches stuff has ruined hip hop.


      "...this is the difference between and MC and a rapper.
      Rappers spit rhymes that are mostly illegal.
      MCs spit rhymes to uplift their people..."
      -KRS-One

      These rappers make the hip hoppers (or MCs) and the whole genre of hip hop look bad.

      EDIT: I see that I'm kind of late, but I don't care.
    • SnuKs, on 10/11/2007, -2/+10Yea it's really sad. All that 'dirty south' rap is all you hear nowadays on the radio.

      "I'm so cool! Look at me show off my diamonds! All you ladies are bitches to me! Suck my dick ho! Make it rain! Make it rain!"

      It's garbage! Over here in California it's getting just as bad as the 'hyphy movement' is gettin into full swing. I swear every teenager here is so down with being hyphy that they'll represent the Bay Area, even when they live in socal! It's just insane and I'm waiting for the next fad to come in for them to imitate.

      REAL hip hop to me has subtance and doesn't see any color. It has meaning. It's solid. It's creative. Not this "Let me buy you a draaank! I got money in the baaank!" *****. Honestly, do these people know what their saying and actually dig it?

      What's worse is when you ask these guys who inspired them. They'll give you the, "Oh when I grew up I looked up to RUN DMC, Wu-Tang, A Tribe Called Quest, ect." *****! MONEY is what inspired these guys. Either that or they SOLD OUT just to make a quick dollar.

    • cam2009, on 10/11/2007, -1/+8@thebeast205

      "writing down a poem and making a "beat" to it just shouldn't really be considered music"

      How is that any different than what Bob Dylan or folk singers do? Bob Dylan just writes poems and sings them in the same voice and repeating the same 3 chords. The focus of hip-hop should be lyrics, which isn't the way it's going unfortunately. It's like if Bob Dylan suddenly decided lyrics don't matter and wrote something like "My Humps". Popular hip-hop is throwing away the whole thing that makes it what it is.
    • NealV, on 10/11/2007, -0/+3I wouldn't call mainstream hip-hop dead. It got commercialized. That's what happens when ***** gets commercialized. I don't listen to hip-hop, I stick pretty much straight to rock - of all different sub-genres but rock is a good all-encompassing term for what I listen to. Rock was fookin sick, starts as underground type of thing, slowly builds up, becomes an increasingly prominent part of American culture. The BOOM the 80's happen. Hair bands? Arena rock? Jesus, that stuff was god-awful. Made a mockery out of itself, abso-*****-lutely ridiculous. But even as that stuff was going on, you still had underground artists, non-mainstream stuff. Eventually as 80's rock faded away - and trust me, mainstream hip-hop will fade away just like Disco and Hair Bands before it - it'll all go back to the roots and get good again. You won't be playing on the pop radio stations any more, but that's always for the best ;-).
    • canewediggit, on 10/11/2007, -1/+8@boredsam- don't neglect the fact that wu-tang did a large number of songs decrying the situations that create the culture they grew up in. yes, they did some bitches, hos, drugs stuff, but they also did some of the most intelligent and positive stuff that ever came out of the mainstream. the underlying message of most of the wu-tang stuff was that the black youth need to find a better way because the drugs and bitches lifestyle doesn't pay off in the end.

      you can't party your life away, ***** your life away, dream your life away, scheme your life away...
      cause your seeds grow up the same way

      "how can hip-hop be dead if wu-tang is forever?" - rza
    • Robotsu, on 10/11/2007, -4/+1"However, I live in a poor section of town now, and I'm amazed at how many white kids think that they have to affect "black" postures to be "down""

      So, in effect, what you are saying is that Black people have a different posture than White people?
    • Robotsu, on 10/11/2007, -2/+1"Sure, there was some misogyny and violence, but current "rap stars" have reduced their race to stereotyped clowns."

      Only if you see them as representative of the culture at large. Which makes you a racist. Congratulations.
    • Robotsu, on 10/11/2007, -0/+2"Hip Hop today has been perverted into a marketing tool."

      Along with just about every other popular, mainstream musical genre :P
    • casualfreak, on 10/11/2007, -0/+0Wow, I must be old. I long for the days of KRS-1, Public Enemy and The Last Poets.
    • handsoffme, on 10/11/2007, -1/+4***** act like they forgot about Dre
    • adam07, on 10/11/2007, -0/+1@holygram

      You ripped that from The Roots' "What They Do".

      At least give them credit.
    • TheBEAST205, on 10/11/2007, -1/+1@ cam2009

      I was never referencing to Bob Dylan, but what ever. Take a good progressive rock band like Yes. They aren't my favorite band, but hell, they have 10x more talent than any "hip-hop" artist out there and that's a fact. What pisses me off the most is these talentless hip-hop artists go out and make tons of money by writing poems while people that actually know who to make music can make an 18 minute musical masterpiece and don't make *****.
  • Auerbeck, on 10/11/2007, -12/+4If they want it, they can have it.
    • Bobski, on 10/11/2007, -3/+4HEADLINE CORRECTION:

      Hip-Hop Culture is not Black Culture.

      Should read:

      Hip-Hop Culture is not Culture.
  • phenomanah, on 10/11/2007, -6/+20Insightful as hell. Sharp article; highly deserving of diggs, yours and mine.
  • SpaceMonkeyZero, on 10/11/2007, -20/+6Inaccurate. It's not a culture.
  • Easty, on 10/11/2007, -3/+20Oh for the days when Rhythm & Blues wasn't the bland ***** it is now.
    It's either "Girl, I looooove you", "Boy, I looooove you", or "Boy, I don't neeeeed you no mooooore".
    • timothybryce, on 10/11/2007, -3/+15Oh I disagree. Might I refer you R. Kelly's "We Thuggin":

      Yeah, we thuggin, rollin on dubs and,
      Off up in the club, whylin like what
      Got Cris' on pop, Henny wit no chaser, mami don't stop
      Throwin up six o'clock, plus I got four hun-nies in the drop
      And my man Joe's got the keys to the spot
      And it's full with hunnies, panties with no tops
      We take a puff of 'dro and be aight
    • timothybryce, on 10/11/2007, -0/+4Or: http://youtube.com/watch?v=rTK0kFXJjd0
    • Reedan, on 10/11/2007, -1/+8Or: http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=1384277706451157121

      "Think I'm just too white and nerdy..."
    • turnlikeawheel, on 10/11/2007, -0/+11Translation of the above lyrics:

      We're very tough, driving on audio editing equipment
      Now we're in a bar, um, whyling(?)
      We have some very expensive champagne and liquor but no beer or pop to drink afterwards, and we're telling this girl named Mami not to stop drinking or dancing or something
      Then I was up until 6 in the morning puking with four other girls
      My friend Joe has keys to his house, where there are lots of girls without shirts on
      But I was scared, so I smoked some drugs and then I was okay.
    • ExSlashdotter, on 10/11/2007, -0/+3dictionary:
      tr. v. whiled, whil-ing, whiles - to spend (time) idly or pleasantly

      urban dictionary (not making this up):
      whylin - "to be crazy or the act of going crazy. it can also mean whatever the hell you want it to mean"
    • Dumbledorito, on 10/11/2007, -0/+3A good hip-hop critique of a certain segment of the culture:

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vvciCyR6GDQ

      This is for BET. I hope there's a non-cam version of it soon. It's friggin' hilarious.
    • mobbo, on 10/11/2007, -0/+2@timothybryce

      You think at some point they'd run out of all the possible combinations of saying those exact lyrics over and over. It's like... when they pitch a new song do they say "Hey... I have an idea for a song, ok. It's about being at a club, drinking expensive but ***** drinks, smoking weed, and looking for girls to impregnate. That hasn't been done before, right?".
    • Dumbledorito, on 10/11/2007, -0/+1@mobbo: Taco Bell has lasted for years re-arranging meat, beans and cheese, so why not a media style?
  • phractured, on 10/11/2007, -3/+6"Hip Hop nowadays is nothing but a minstrel show. In the early to mid 80s it was a legitimate form of music."

    Ahem, the hiphop you hear on the radio and mtv is, the underground hiphop is great and is more like music then any of those mainstream rappers who sing about exploiting women could ever make.
  • coit, on 10/11/2007, -4/+4Is too.
  • devboy00, on 10/11/2007, -4/+3Good use of conflated. 5 points
  • thatsbologna, on 10/11/2007, -8/+5I love how people judge all hip hop by the "hip hop" they hear on the radio/tv. Yeah, commercial rap/hip hop does mostly suck, but people like Nas and Jay-Z don't. Then you get to the underground, and it's a whole other story. People like AZ, Saigon, Immortal Technique (to name a very few) are truly talented, and it is just looked over because people dismiss it straight away when they hear songs like "This is why im hot" on the radio.
    • lhnz, on 10/11/2007, -2/+1@thatsbologna (#7172421)
      This isn't relevant to the article?!
  • embarkadero, on 10/11/2007, -3/+5Except that it is.

    /fixed it for you there, subby
  • Jesse, on 10/11/2007, -2/+5I've listened to too much hip hop and rap to ever pass it off as any one-dimensional adjective. There's a thriving underground but there's also a ton of aboveground artists still putting out beautiful music. Radio hip hop sucks? I guess only as much as most radio music.

    I wouldn't say hip-hop culture is black culture, but definitely hip-hop culture is a subset of black culture.
  • nubnub, on 10/11/2007, -11/+4The music sucks
  • MWeather, on 10/11/2007, -7/+6It's not black culture it's black street culture? THAT'S his refutation? Dugg down as lame.
    • lhnz, on 10/11/2007, -0/+4@Mweather (#7172483)
      Nope. The point of the article is that the hierarchical pyramid with people aspiring for the top is working the other way round with black people because of hip-hop culture, and because they look to the top of the pyramid and see white people and look to the bottom and see their own culture.
    • aoneal417, on 10/11/2007, -0/+0Chris Rock explains in a much more straight forward fashion.

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_q8LxO4wnCQ
  • Kelgann, on 10/11/2007, -9/+2I'm not a fan of rap or hip-hop, mostly metal, but these guys kick ass: http://www.myspace.com/grandbuffet .

    PS, Myspace sucks. Bands need to learn to host their songs on their website.
  • iamlost456, on 10/11/2007, -15/+1Umm lame article. I want 5 minutes of my life back after reading that.

    Buried
  • youngandwise, on 10/11/2007, -1/+2http://www.myspace.com/sjforest19 -

    New young political, revolutionary hip-hop artist who really has some interesting stuff to say -- Check him out, he could use the support

    Artists like this are proof that hip-hop is not dead
    • Light11, on 10/11/2007, -1/+1hes not very good. hes rhymes are just like how pow brown cow ish..
  • NJPENSO, on 10/11/2007, -4/+5It may not be Black Culture, but most black people I've met sure want it to be.
  • PRlME, on 10/11/2007, -0/+2http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WQYp5ZjKX5I
  • jdbeast00, on 10/11/2007, -3/+6there are black people that aren't into hip-hop and there are white people that aren't into country, but that doesn't mean we can't still stereotype
  • charityjustice, on 10/11/2007, -6/+4Except that, it is.

    What a load of apologist tripe that article was.
    • g30ff, on 10/11/2007, -0/+3*****. I think it is conflating things to even speak of "black culture" (or hip hop culture, for that matter) as if it is a single unitary phenomenon. To speak of "black cultures" is probably more accurate. You still have rural black people in the south today who probably have more in common with rural southern white people than either group would care to admit, both musically and in terms of the daily realities that they face. Even in the cities there have been various waves of immigration from different countries in the Carribean and Africa, each of which has unique set of traditions. To lump them all together is to fall prey to the illusion of outgroup homogeneity.
  • gmavz, on 10/11/2007, -5/+3My girlfriend practices Ikebana, but I guess since she's white it's not Japanese anymore
  • ChuckAndBob, on 10/11/2007, -11/+2It's "beyond hip hop" partly because the white boys are taking over hip hop. You hear that negroes? The white man is taking hip hop! Suckas.
  • GunnerMcGrath, on 10/11/2007, -5/+7I expected a defense of black culture. What I actually read was "even the smart black people are stupider than everyone else."
  • mpn401, on 10/11/2007, -7/+4Didn't Eminem prove this already?
    • gmavz, on 10/11/2007, -2/+8"I am the worst thing since Elvis Presley,
      To do Black Music so selfishly
      And use it to get myself wealthy (Hey)"
    • alucinor, on 10/11/2007, -4/+1No I think the Beastie Boys did.
  • Bigflexy, on 10/11/2007, -2/+6This reminds me of that time when Rock and Roll promoted sex and drugs. What ever happened to that?
    • youngandwise, on 10/11/2007, -2/+9whiny emo suburban white kids who think they have real problems?
    • gmavz, on 10/11/2007, -3/+9***** hate emo.

      How many emo kids does it take to screw in a lightbulb?..... none because thye like to sit and cry in the dark
    • endustry, on 10/11/2007, -4/+1Keith Richards is equal to at least five 50 Cents. That's $2.50 in case anyone is counting.
  • bigrobert327, on 10/11/2007, -1/+3the State of hip hop is like mid 90's Boy Bands Bubble gum pop. I think hip hop is going end up like the disco era, peoples are going to get sick of it.
    • youngandwise, on 10/11/2007, -0/+4maybe our generation will get sick of it.. but what happens when Clarence Mcwankster and all of his friends grow up and have more wankster kids who want to be like the cool guys who pimp hoes and wear jewelry on t.v... I dont think the people will get sick of it, I'm thinking more along the lines of 'Idiocracy'
    • lunacylyric, on 10/11/2007, -0/+0I also think that hip hop is going to turn out like teeny bopper 90 pop music. It was there, it was popular, 10-15 years later, it either mutates into something disgusting and annoying, or it going to be like a really bad weed that just doesn't die but sticks around.
  • boredsam, on 10/11/2007, -1/+26Didn't Bill Cosby make this point a few years ago?
    • apachedisco, on 10/11/2007, -2/+26And he got back lash from the Black Community.
    • mobbo, on 10/11/2007, -1/+8Yes. It was sad because he spoke the truth. When I heard what he said I was like "FINALLY!" as well as, I'm sure, many black people.

      What Would Bill Cosby Do?
  • liberaldigger, on 10/11/2007, -11/+3Yo yo,

    Ima gonna put a cap ina ya ass wile I slap ma bitch...

    Black culture is black street culture. one in the same....
  • Contico, on 10/11/2007, -2/+8This just in, most Americans under the age of 45 don't actually care.
  • emptyo, on 10/11/2007, -1/+6Very interesting article. I went to a school in Philly (Temple University) that was very, very integrated, and located in one of the worst parts of the city. It amazed me that the "smart" black students seemed very alienated from their peers, and this was *college*. I can't imagine how bad it is on the high school level.

    Definitely food for thought.

    Yo.


  • defSE7EN, on 10/11/2007, -2/+5anyone like atmosphere, murs, and brother ali just to name a few from rhymesayers crew?

    www.rhymesayers.com

    that's real hip hop. i am white.
    • kobewan0824, on 10/11/2007, -1/+5i love murs, hes awesome, especially with those 9th wonder beats. little brother is also another great group. if ***** like this got some airplay, it wouldnt be that popular still. black teens, especially black girls, dont wanna hear that *****. they wanna hear loud in ur face club ***** and gangsta rap. i also listen to masta ace. theres other good rap music that isnt all bout killing people and stealing and *****, but those are some of my favs. conversely, i still listen to gangsta rap. the difference between me and most black kids is i dont feel the need to live what i hear. i just enjoy it for what it is. cant blame 50 cent, hes making money the old fashioned american way. kanye west is very good tho. i listen to jedi mind tricks, good underground *****, and i like canibus on the album he did with jedi mind tricks producer. all good *****. anyways, its not the artists fault, its just the way black kids are.
    • Unclekoolaid, on 10/11/2007, -1/+3Check out P.O.S. or Sage Francis, not trying to advertise but this is seriosuly good music
      www.doomtree.net
      www.sagefrancis.net
      www.myspace.com/posisruiningmylife
    • luvs2spooge, on 10/11/2007, -2/+3Real hip-hop:

      Sage Francis
      Mr. Lif
      Talib Kweli
      Soul Position
      P.O.S.
      Murs
      Atmosphere
      Aesop Rock
      El-P

      Some might say Immortal Technique, but I think he's obnoxious.
  • beatphats, on 10/11/2007, -4/+1Hip-hop has not been a culture since the majority of Urban Latinos stopped taggin' and breakdancin', now it's just "The Game".

    For more info, cop Raquel Rivera's New York Ricans from the Hip-hop Zone"
    • holygram, on 10/11/2007, -1/+3Okay...you're wrong.

      It's not the 'latinos' fault that real hip hop is dying. That's just dumb.

      Its the A&Rs and the record companies' fault.
    • beatphats, on 10/11/2007, -3/+1You misinterpreted my comment. I was trying to say that you can't call hip-hop a culture anymore because right now it's very one dimensional. A culture, in general, is an accumulation of music, dance, art, food, etc. Latinos never get credited for being a major player in the birth of hip-hop, and in reality they had more to do with the positive aspects in hip-hop than anyone else. Blacks brought the word of the streets; Latinos brought everything else.
    • holygram, on 10/11/2007, -0/+2Meh.

      I'd still have to disagree. I think that it was both Latinos and Blacks that helped create the culture, and neither one significantly contributed any more than the other.

      As for hip hop being a culture, its not as dead as people think. You just have to know where to look for it.
    • beatphats, on 10/11/2007, -3/+1Obviously, you didn't grow up in the Bronx, but keep subscribing to the Source, good luck....
    • holygram, on 10/11/2007, -1/+2haha, no I didn't grow up in the bronx, and no I don't subscribe to the source.

      Hip Hop started with Rap, which started with DJ's playing breaks. Who were these pioneering DJs? Kool Herc and Grandmaster Flash come to mind.

      And yes, Latinos (specifically Puerto Ricans for the most part) did contribute a lot to the culture. Among the Puerto Rican pioneers of hip-hop and rap are Crazy legs, Devastating Tito and Master O.C of the Fearless Four, Tony Touch, Q-Unique, and Puerto Rock, all of whom did their own thing for the culture, but now have been eclipsed by blacks because of the recording execs who market rap as 'black music'.

      And even before all that, African slaves in the 18th century created arguably the first 'hip hop music'. They would sing to cheer each other up after the work, and this singing would be accompanied by 'beats' made by other slaves clapping and hitting various parts of their own bodies.
  • venicerocco, on 10/11/2007, -1/+3
    Buried for trying to tell me that rain is wet.

  • kobewan0824, on 10/11/2007, -7/+3good point contico, nobody does ***** care. this guys didnt make much of a point really. black culture is black street culture, at least right now. and most of these kids who act gangsta in their teens, even the kids in the burbs, are going nowhere fast. all of my black friends from high school are still out every night, scheming on how to get free money and weed, getting into fights, and generally being losers. its not going to change. hip hop has seen a bit of a decline in popularity lately on the billboard charts, but it doesnt matter. they still love 50 cent and all these other gangster rappers, and thats not changing. it wouldnt matter if it did, black kids are just animals in general. thats the way it is. they feel they can live this lifestyle, and use the white mans oppression(*****) as an excuse. they are just as free as anybody else. Alot of white people dont like arabs, but i dont see them living some ***** life of crime, unless they are terrorists. most arabs in america are successful human beings, so why arent the blacks??
    • sugarazor, on 10/11/2007, -1/+4Did you seriously just say "black kids are animals" followed by saying there's no such thing as the white man's oppression? I think you just kinda disproved your own point there.
    • venicerocco, on 10/11/2007, -0/+4"the blacks" lol If only there was an R.A. 12 step plan.

      You do make some good points - there are serious cultural problems deep-routed within black populations. Its just a shame your racism ruins your observations.
  • Jambi, on 10/11/2007, -1/+5Sure modern mainstream hip-hop is mostly crap, but what modern "popular" music isn't? I don't think I've listened to the radio (except for NPR and the occasional basketball game) since 1993. Around the mid 90s, the majority of the stuff on radio simply went down in quality, likely due to ClearChannel and several other companies consolidating their control over the US radio industry and homogenizing playlists. This led to that sort of watered down crap selling (since most people weren't exposed to other kinds of music that they otherwise might have been during pre-monoply radio) and narrowed the scope of popular music even more. Indie/underground/etc has thrived due to the formation of subcommunities on the Net, but you're not going to see/hear that sort of stuff in the mainstream media (which is what "pop" culture mostly is).
  • endustry, on 10/11/2007, -0/+6Corporations will market whatever sells to whoever will buy it with absolutely no concern for the consequences.
  • flashywordz, on 10/11/2007, -1/+3For all you diggers whose interests are piqued by this article:
    see:
    www.okayplayer.com
    an online Hip Hop community, partially ran by ?uestlove of The Roots, it's got news, forum boards, the newest leaked songs/albums, sometimes even the artists themselves come on the bulletin boards and talk to fans.
    • snipes, on 10/11/2007, -0/+1I love that site, good stuff.
      • ThaKstylez, on 04/10/2008, -0/+0Yeah just peeped it.. And it is a real.. Yes they Keepz it reallll.
        So is Thakstylez.com Hip hop art
  • republicker, on 10/11/2007, -6/+3i've only seen a few black people in my life NOT dressed like a rapper. and i've seen a lot of black people.
    i've seen millions of white people who listen to rock music,, but they dont dress like alice cooper, only a small percentage do.
    this just proves that black people have more of a herd mentality.



    oh yea ..................crack is a hellava drug.
  • sugarazor, on 10/11/2007, -0/+10"While there are exceptions to every rule, the major consumers of "underground hip hop" are suburban white kids. Even militant groups like Public Enemy, who lamented on this fact, knew this"

    The major consumers of all hip-hop are suburban white kids, regardless of its popularity. And anyone who keeps bringing up this underground hip-hop stuff is missing the entire point of the article. The point is this subculture (going beyond just music) is causing many young adults to be comfortable with setting the bar lower and lower. It's not an article about black people, it's an article about black people that act like this. Is there white trash that acts like this? Yes, but there are a lot more white people in the country than blacks and sadly perception is often considered reality. Of course the problem is, whites and blacks continue to look at each other in these two simple groups and it's just stupid. We're all people, it would be nice if we could actually get over something as trivial and skin color and all just be ourselves, but that will never happen.

    And people really need to stop saying "rap is a fad" or "rap is about to die." People have been saying that for damn near 25 years now... it's really time to let go of that theory.
  • ISurfTooMuch, on 10/11/2007, -0/+21I think this is an excellent article, but let's get away from the debate over hip-hop music. What's more important is the issue of lowering one's standards of achievement in order to fit in with a peer group. One might argue that this is a Black issue, but I disagree. Blacks may be exhibiting this trend more than other ethnic groups, but it happens across all races to a lesser or greater degree. But the author misses this point when he notes that Blacks who have a GPA of 3.5 or higher have fewer friends, while somehow contrasting this with Whites. Anyone who has had a high GPA in high school knows that, if you're labeled as a nerd or geek, you'll be about as popular as a leper.

    No, our culture doesn't celebrate academic achievement; it celebrates popularity. Does the Quiz Bowl team get large articles in the newspaper when they compete against another team? Of course not, but the football team sure does. Do scholars get letter jackets? Rarely, but athletes always do. Is the Homecoming Queen elected based on how high her GPA is? Of course not! She's elected on how good she looks. And these practices aren't the doings of some subculture that mainstream society considers poisonous. They're created and perpetuated by mainstream society.

    And yet people wonder why our kids are getting dumber and dumber. Here's a clue, folks. It's because our society doesn't value scholarship. Smart kids might get a certificate on honors day, but the good-looking kids and athletes are the ones constantly celebrated and rewarded. They get articles written about them every day in the local newspaper, they get the big scholarships, and they're the ones who appear on television over and over. Of course kids don't want to learn. They're simply following the example that our society sets for them.
    • endustry, on 10/11/2007, -2/+7Nerds! Neerds! Neeerds! Neeeerds! NEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEERDS!
    • Smoot, on 10/11/2007, -1/+1Surf you've got some good comments but I think you're lumping too much together. The rewards for popularity is more popularity. Scholarship is rewarded in the business place with more money, normally. People don't study to be botanists to be popular. Both the athlete and the "good looking" person have to be those things. You can certainly think of a number of athletes that while revered for their athletic ability are equally reviled for their personal lives. As for Good Looking people, that's amplified even greater. Still, people don't emulate their bad attributes; they celebrate their achievements even if it's just the fact that they are celebrities.

      Where the hip hop culture is headed is promoting that the only way to be popular is to be disrespectful of others. So, this allows anyone to be popular without anymore effort than it takes to be disrespectful of the person next to you or worse, someone that you don't even know.

      However, I do agree with you though that the black community is not the only community within which this dysfunction is manifesting.
    • ISurfTooMuch, on 10/11/2007, -0/+1@Smoot
      I agree with you that academic achievement is rewarded by higher salaries. You can see that, I can see that, but high school kids can't necessarily see that. They see popular culture, and popular culture isn't telling them about the rewards of staying in school, making good grades, and using those grades to build a successful life. Instead, it bombards them with images of celebrities, athletes, and it tells them that these are the people they should emulate. What I'm saying is that this culture isn't just something put forth by the media; it's also deeply ingrained into our society. Like I said, the kids who achieve academically aren't the ones who get written up in the newspapers. That's reserved for athletes. Likewise, Homecoming isn't about academics; it usually centers around a football game. Are academic achievements celebrated as lavishly? No, they're not.

      Our society might reward those who get an education, but we don't do it well enough in elementary and high school. There, we only give academic excellence lip service. The one case where I saw someone try to do better was a local video arcade when I was in high school. They encouraged kids to bring in their report cards, and for every A you got, you got a certain number of free games. And this was in the '80s, when arcades were the most popular places for many kids to go. How about schools and the community actually rewarding kids who do well? Maybe a movie theater could give the top students in a class free movie tickets. Give them several of them so they can spread them around to their friends if they want, and I bet you'll see those kids become more popular. Yeah, it's a form of bribery for getting good grades, but it's no worse than the rewards we give to star football, basketball, and baseball players.
  • knuvue, on 12/05/2007, -0/+5This goes along with Jambi and what many others have already started to shed some light on.

    While I do agree with all of you defending "underground" hip-hop as a legitimate form of music, saying that all of the "commercial" hip-hop on the radio is just garbage unfortunately does not change the fact that 99% of people just hear the crap on the radio. The average rap listener knows nothing about the roots of hip-hop and most likely can't name more than two legit, underground rappers. That's why it's called "underground". In nearly every genre of music, or art in general for that matter, there is the mainstream/commercialized form, and then the lesser-known but often superior stuff. That's what happens to art in our society through pop-culture.

    While it is a shame that more people interested in hip-hop haven't seen the light of underground, it doesn't change the fact that we live in a country that is basically brainwashed by our televisions radios and media. While I do agree with this article, I think it is merely scratching the surface of a much larger problem in our country that reaches far beyond the troubles of the african-american community. It seems that people don't care much for the quality of content anymore. As long as it's big, shiny, and exciting, they love it...and the scary part is that I think most people know that there is more out there, to learn, to be seen, heard and appreciated but they just don't care.
  • gbv23, on 10/11/2007, -0/+3We need another Harlem Renaissance

    Where's W.E.B duBois when we need him?
  • Shabaka, on 10/11/2007, -0/+18Has anyone considered that there are black people and black culture outside America? And to try to relate rap music with soci-economic status is simply illogical. White suburban kids buy and listen to more rap music than anyone else. Minstrel show? Perhaps. Snoop did say in a rap, I make money of crackers. I don't think he meant Keebler. Americans in general are the worst students in the world on average. America has the (2nd) most wealth with the most poor people in the world. The problems outlined in this article are more of an American problem than a black problem. Btw, who markets this c-rap that you hear on radio anyways? Hint, its not black people. Lets see, Common puts out an album and the white kids don't buy it. 50 Cent puts out and album and sells 12 million copies. Why is that?
    • lookadeez, on 10/11/2007, -0/+1damn, yu hit it on the head- I was trying to say that- scratch my longass diatribe. . I'm on your bus!
    • venicerocco, on 10/11/2007, -2/+1Uh, Hello? The race is called "African *AMERICANS*"???!!!11one
  • SilentSpyder, on 10/11/2007, -0/+10As an hispanic I feel the same way about our people. One thing is to listen to hip hop, another thing is to model your life after these poor excuses for rappers.
    • republicker, on 10/11/2007, -0/+3you nailed it on the head.
    • boredsam, on 10/11/2007, -1/+3Agreed. As far as Hispanic culture, Reggaeton is as bad as hip hop as far as its' treatment of women and glorofication of violence.
    • OMGWTFROFLMAOx2, on 10/11/2007, -0/+1dancehall is 100x worse than hip hop, but it gets the girls dancing so i honestly can't complain

      what? have you ever danced with a girl when dancehall comes on at a party/club?
  • ZachRetox, on 10/11/2007, -0/+4This article reminds me of a 101-level report on Tatum's "Why Are All the Black Kids Sitting Together in the Cafeteria."
    • beatphats, on 10/11/2007, -0/+1Haha... I went to Colgate, and I could have sworn Tatum went there, too, when I read this.
  • lookadeez, on 10/11/2007, -0/+3I like this article. It makes some great points, some upsetting but undeniable, except I think it misses a few points. I'd rather he just direct it as street culture instead of hiphop becasue not all hiphop is street. And not all hip promotes the negativity that he speaks of. Its the hiphop that gets promoted the most , which is done mostly by corporations who are definitely not "street" in no way shape or form. Kids do want to emulate the "lower" elements of society in Black culture, which I think is a grossly misguided attempt to stick a finger to elitism and aristocracy. It's been spun around to the point where most of the kids today don't seem to get that, which is kind of what kids do. misinterpret things. The hiphop that I fell in love with was not only fun and positive, it informed me of many things I didnt know about (SALT N PEPA, PUBLIC ENEMY, BDP, KID N PLAY. . .) In that era perverse forms of capitolism were shunned, hence the term "selling out", and being unoriginal was called "biting", also frowned upon. Now , those terms have been replaced by terms like "stop hating" and "I'm getting mine" which promote excess and individualism. Hiphop came from the streets and by the time of its introduction to the rest of the world, it was predominately positive in terms of lyrics and content. Sur there were always other elements, just like other genres of music, but the hits were mostly message driven if not a party jam. It got co opted by elements that were in not "street" and now whats promoted the most is generally the most desperate, money hungry, blood thirsty element, which gets polished off and presented as proper role models and representatives of "hiphop" and "street" at the same time. I say since music has become a "way out" for lots of black folks, and music is so tied in to "culture", the "business" of music puts commerce and culture far too close which then becomes detrimental to Black culture. How do you fix that? Whoo, tell all of us to stop singing maybe?

  • reticulate, on 10/11/2007, -9/+6Hip Hop is *****.

    Sorry, but there it is.
  • TheSexyGeek, on 10/11/2007, -1/+17I wish people would stop referring to AFRO-AMERICAN culture as Black culture. There is no such thing as BLACK culture. There are black people all over the world with VERY different cultures. Real Black Africans are very different from Black Americans. Black people from the Caribbean have an entirely different cultural identity, seperate and apart from Black Americans. The Hip Hop culture is just that. . .HIP HOP CULTURE. People of different races adhere to it. The term "black culture" really makes no sense to me because I know that within the black race there are MANY cultures.

    What is white culture? White American? White Eurpoean? White South-African? Why do Black people have to be seen as a monolithic block of cookie cutter personas? We are individuals and we are NOT all the same. The very use of the term Black culture exposes the ignorance of the writer. But as usual, Americans think America is the world, so Black-Americans become the face of black people in general. It's just stupid.
    • raynar, on 10/11/2007, -3/+7There's also no such thing as Afro-American. If you're born here, you're American, with African heritage (or whatever ethnic group you're from). If you were born in Africa and moved to America, then you're African.

      Its funny how one of the biggest arguments that most groups make is being segregated and not part of the group, yet they make their own group and seclude themselves...

      Things like BET, Black Miss USA, etc etc...hell, even on Sirius, there's the Jaime Foxx show, which you guessed it, black only. Try doing any of these for whites, and see how long it takes Jesse Jackson or Al Sharpton to be on your front door.
    • WileEPeyote, on 10/11/2007, -0/+1@thesexygeek

      The writer is an American, writing for an American web-site; so yeah, he is talking about black people in America (the writer even states this in the article). I think if you read the article careful you will realize that you missed his point.
    • oneblackcitizen, on 10/11/2007, -0/+0i don't think he wrote with an international audience in mind. i read it and i assumed he meant blacks in america. but, then again, i guess that's probably not how most people in the world will read it so guess people need to be more careful writing when an international audience could read it.

      I really don't think he meant all black people in the world.

      btw: i do think there are some commonalities/generalities that sometimes exist in groups of cultures. Example: Eastern vs. Western cultures. Or African vs. Asian vs. European based cultures. Not that within each one they are all the same though.
  • RalphDibny, on 10/11/2007, -0/+4Underground hip hop is neither hip hop nor underground...just look at any college campus to prove it
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