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122 Comments
- HogLeg, on 10/12/2007, -2/+33We need to do SOMETHING about these guys sneaking so-called "Anti Piracy" scum-ware onto our hard drives. I've got something called Pace Anti-Piracy software on my computer right now, and can't find a good way to get rid of it. It was put on my comp. when I just Played a movie.
So I say Screw them- If I put software on Their systems, they'd consider me a malicious hacker. So what are THEY? - kimos, on 10/12/2007, -0/+22No. You could do that regardless.
DRM restricts the types of players you can use to listen to your music, to which machines you can copy the music you paid for, and what you choose to do with the music you paid for. It also allows for you to be tracked and treated like a criminal.
You've been able to download and listen to music legally for years. DRM has just made it harder, and has strengthened the hold of big corporations. - m1abrams, on 10/12/2007, -0/+18DRM is not about making money. DRM is about controlling how you use something. Which in many cases circumvents your "Fair use" right. You can make money without DRM.
- ccanni1028, on 10/12/2007, -3/+21Then you are an idiot.
- pbaehr, on 10/12/2007, -2/+18Hopefully they have more aggressive ideas than internet petitions. I'm tired of arm-chair protests. I'd like to see some real campaigns against DRM start.
- kimos, on 10/12/2007, -0/+15@m1abrams: Yes, exactly!
Corporations use DRM to try to lock you into their formats, to make more money off of you. The whole thign is crazy...
Say you bought a Toyota, but these days all cars come with AutomotiveDRM. You sign a contract when you buy your Toyota that says you can only take your car to Toyota service stations, and drive them on Toyota approved roads. It just so happens that Toyota cars will only accept Toyota Gas, even though VolksWagon gas is exactly the same thing. If you try to drive on a Ford road, your car will just stop. If you're clever and find a way to get into the Ford roads, they accuse you of stealing the car that you have bought.
So why do people stand for it when we buy DVDs, music, whatever? Like @pornel said, it's hard to avoid it by not buying it. - dakkon2399, on 10/12/2007, -0/+14The point is not to wait until it is put into law. It's a lot easier to influence potential law now, than try to repeal existing law that you disagree with.
- iSEPIC, on 10/12/2007, -5/+19QUOTE: DRM has enabled me to listen to all the music I want, legally, for a small monthly fee. UNQOTE:
what a ***** idiot. - ozydingo, on 10/12/2007, -0/+13Submiting your phone # isn't required. Defective by design is an initiative of the Free Software Foundation (http://www.fsf.org/) so i'd say it's probbaly legit. I'm still not giving them my phone number.
- rastan, on 10/12/2007, -5/+17Just as a note grooveTEK, you're probably being buried because signature spam is bad, mmmkay?
Don't do it, digg doesn't have signatures for a reason. - spyrochaete, on 10/12/2007, -1/+13No, companies enabled you to do this. They could have done this without DRM but they chose to restrict you first. It's like me saying I'll let you listen to all the music you want, legally, for $5 a month, but the catch is that I'm singing it and playing the ukelele with my pants down.
- spyrochaete, on 10/12/2007, -0/+9You can play Half Life 2 freely and back up your files, but does Valve really need to authenticate you online every time you play a single player game? What happens when Steam goes down? You don't own HL2, you rent it.
You can put a Beastie Boys album on your iPod, but if you lose your local file can you copy it from your iPod to your computer? If you bought it from ITMS you'll have to buy it AGAIN.
Our analog rights allowed us to copy music to whatever format we wish, to be enjoyed on any platform of our choosing. The entertainment industries feel they've been too generous with their customers, so they have decided to "manage" our digital rights. Rights management literally means limiting our rights. DRM is an excuse to collect marketing data, to make lawful backups impossible, and to force user to buy the same content on multiple media. - cliffspence, on 10/12/2007, -4/+13Consider it done. Thanks for the link, wayjer.
- Bogtha, on 10/12/2007, -1/+10> No DVDs, no downloads, no HDTV? It doesn't work.
It doesn't work because people refuse to boycott something if it causes the slightest inconvenience in their lives. Your comment is a fine example. You really can't do without DVDs and HDTV? Being able to watch TV is more important to you than the freedom to do what you like with your own property?
> If everything has DRM, all you can do is hide in a cave.
But hardly anything has DRM. It's mostly limited to particular types of entertainment products. But if it isn't stopped now, it *will* be in everything.
If you honestly think not watching TV and DVDs is like hiding in a cave, then you really need to switch off the TV and realise there's more to life than sitting motionless on the sofa. - jarrodtrainque, on 10/12/2007, -0/+9I'm strongly against DRM only because I know what it is and the precedent it sets. Unfortunately, the vast majority of people out there (i.e., iTunes customers, NOT the digg community) have no idea what DRM is or how it's bad, and so they really don't care. That is, until it affects them directly.
Case in point: A few weeks ago, a less technically-inclined co-worker of mine bought a new computer and needed some help setting up her ipod. When I sat down with her, she was shocked to find out that she couldn't simply transfer her music to a new machine, since she'd bought it outright. Turns out, she had purchased the music all right, but from iTunes (with DRM intact). Fortunately, I was able to get her music on her new machine, but at the cost of "authorizing" her machine.
I suspect that as time goes by and more and more iTunes customers upgrade their hardware and run into this same sort of counter-intuitive scenario, DRM will get more public awareness. But by then, it may be too late.
In addition to the work done by the EFF & others, I'd like to see a campaign that focuses on those casual users who have no idea they're getting screwed. Right now, the struggle against DRM seems too focused on the business/tech communities, who obviously have an incentive/agenda. Get this message out to the general public, the ones dropping $.99 after $.99, and then maybe we'll make some progress. - sketchstudios, on 10/12/2007, -7/+16how does submitting my phone number help fight drm? sounds fishy to me. beware.
- spyrochaete, on 10/12/2007, -1/+9Yes, if you want to support the fight against DRM, support Sony. Sony has proven themselves to be a reputable company with the best interests of its customers in mind.
- spyrochaete, on 10/12/2007, -0/+8DRM means that you never own the products you buy - you simply rent them, definitely or indefinitely. When you buy an album, for example, you buy a license to play it on a certain device for a certain amount of time. You'll be allowed to make a certain number of copies (perhaps zero) on certain media, and those copies will work on certain devices.
- inactive, on 10/12/2007, -0/+7"Protesters provide a nasty "vista" for Gates"
"The surprise protest marked the launch of DefectiveByDesign.org, a direct-action campaign that will target Big Media and corporations peddling Digital Restrictions Management (DRM)"
http://www.fsf.org/news/vista-hazmat - ccanni1028, on 10/12/2007, -0/+7Napster and iTunes didn't come out when they did because DRM was created. They would have come out even without DRM, most likely around the same time. It was created when the technology was available (the increase in people using broadband to quickly download the files, etc.) and there was a demand for it.
- kimos, on 10/12/2007, -0/+7DRM is not a good thing. Steam, iTMS, and everything else are all still possible without restricting how end users are allowed to use the content they buy. DRM hurts the customer while giving the company more money.
- pornel, on 10/12/2007, -2/+9No DVDs, no downloads, no HDTV? It doesn't work. If everything has DRM, all you can do is hide in a cave.
- Bogtha, on 10/12/2007, -0/+6> The problem isn't with DRM
Yes, it is. Whether you are legally permitted to copy something is not something any technological scheme can determine. Even a lawyer can't tell you - because fair use/fair dealings/etc are grey areas, in some cases you have to wait until a judge makes a ruling before you find out whether a particular copy is legal.
Because DRM can't tell when something is legal or illegal, it must curtail legal copying as well as illegal copying. That's DRM's fundamental nature, and it can't be fixed.
You are right in saying that lock-in is also a problem, but it's not the only problem with DRM. To allow DRM is to allow the erosion of fair use/fair dealings/etc. - m1abrams, on 10/12/2007, -1/+7To clear up, I believe the above poster is referring to "Divx" as in the self destruct DVDs that Circuit City was pushing in the early days of DVD.
- amphora, on 10/12/2007, -0/+6The FSF wants you to sign up to be notified of actual meatspace actions. This isn't an internet petition.
- spyrochaete, on 10/12/2007, -1/+7@Bigcat1021
"DRM sucks, yes. But how are the artists supposed to protect their works?"
They're not. If you're an artist you release your work into the world. Once it's out there, it's OUT THERE. Corporations will keep on coming up with wacky schemes to sell and resell their products, and the people will keep on finding ways around them. Information wants to be free.
So you can't have your cake and eat it too. If you want your art to be seen you have to show it. If you want your art to be secure you have to hide it. - ozydingo, on 10/12/2007, -1/+7I wish people weren't so painfully ignorant to believe that this kind of thing is as simple as the model they teach in econ 101. You've got the huge majority of supplied goods being shipped with this crap because it beneftis the large companies who can afford to flood the market with their crap to drown out anyone who tries to do it differently, and it's no longer up to a simple model of healthy competition weeding out piss-poor products with annoying "features."
- jaymzz, on 10/12/2007, -2/+7If you don't like DRM, buy as few products as possible that support it. It worked for Divx.
(to clarify - THIS Divx : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DIVX) - jarrodtrainque, on 10/12/2007, -0/+5@laplacian
RE: buying non-DRM media. You are 100% right. Whenever possible, folks should try to buy non-DRM media.
This is actually much easier than one might think. Some record labels actually go out of their way to mark their content as having "no copyright protection". For example, K7 records:
http://trainque.com/blog/2004/05/31/k7-records-supports-no-copy-protection/
[yes, this is from my personal blog]
What's the best thing about supporting non-copyright-restricting record/movie companies? You'll be exposed to some high(er)-quality stuff that's focused on art (and isn't all about turning a profit). Take for example, Warp Records' BLEEP music download site:
http://www.bleep.com/
No DRM, no marketing bull, just quality music at fair prices that benefit the artist (moreso than MPAA/RIAA-sponsored artists). - millixaw, on 10/12/2007, -0/+5eMusic has existed before the iTMS. They didn't have DRM back then, and they don't have DRM now. The only difference is, all the big band RIAA-represented artists have jumped ship to the DRM music stores. eMusic still only sells non-DRM MP3s.
Interestingly, nearly every stand-up comic has their stuff on eMusic (if they're represented by George Carlin's laugh.com label, which isn't RIAA). - nwoolls, on 10/12/2007, -2/+7Unfortunately, the internet is geared towards those stuck to their arm-chairs.
- BeReasonable, on 10/12/2007, -0/+4You act as though the two aren't related. DRM is as much about profit as it is about control.
As others have pointed out, with DRM, big companies know they have you locked into their content so they will naturally move to maximize their profit by selling you the cheapest product they can without motivating you to leave.
You could say, without too much stretching, that DRM is why we have such crap formats. Companies don't have to compete on quality. They just have to get you in the door initially with free crap, cool-looking designs or "low" prices. Once a person buys into the system, they usually find it too much of a hassle or loss to abandon their current collection and switch to a whole new system. So, companies have carte blanche to provide crappy products and simply change colors or "re-mix" them and convince you that this is the new great thing you've been waiting for. Never mind that it's not actually better or improved. It just looks different or now "BonezDaKiller" says "*****" in the last verse, instead of the first.
Also, as far as things go, just because it's always been that way doesn't mean that is the way it's supposed to be. Accepting the status quo means the status quo never changes. - spyrochaete, on 10/12/2007, -0/+4@somerandomnerd
That's why the record companies are quaking in their boots! More and more artists are going to break away from the traditional distribution channels if it pisses off their fans. - Technopundit, on 10/12/2007, -0/+4Great idea, even necessary, but not too sure about the implementation. What's with the guys in the DEVO suits?
Best way to fight digital brainwashing is to never EVER pay money for a DRM'd file.
I keep reading Digg posts about how oh-so-great iTunes is. Well, I saw it for what it is, and deleted it from my PC a couple of days after making the mistake of installing it. - babbling, on 10/12/2007, -1/+5Why? It gets attention. That's the goal. People need to start asking "what is DRM? why is it bad?"
If people are interested, they will find out about DRM, and then they will be able to make a concious decision about whether or not they're comfortable with the idea of DRM. - astrotrain, on 10/12/2007, -2/+6Get Linux!
Most of the scumware is build for the mass Windows market. Notice how nothing was mentione about this
scumware on Linux...
"Things that make you go...HMmmmmmmmm"
C & C Music Factory
P.S. Windows users disable your AutoPlay... This is one step from preventing Scumware invading your Windows
OS. Way to many ppl leave this enabled to allow their Windows boxes from autoplaying their music
CDs. - leviathan3k, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3They could distribute *without* DRM, as they've done for decades on CD, and eMusic does now, and AoM does now. All of these solutions make money, and there is *no* reason to suppose that a non-DRM solution won't.
Another problem with both of your examples is that the restrictions imposed on the users are entirely up to a corporation that is in full control. If Apple suddenly wants to restrict you to one machine, and no music on your iPods without paying a fee or some such, they are *well* with in their ability to do that. - Mejogid, on 10/12/2007, -6/+9Not that I use a signiature, but I really don't understand the huge problem diggers have with them. On most forums they are allowed and are rarely obnoxious. If some people hate it that much, couldn't digg just allow proper signiatures and give users a chance to block them? Or maybe be able to mark a comment as spam and have all links removed. Something like that.
Sorry to go off topic, but despite not using signiatures I find it annoying when someone puts a link to a legitimate site at the end of a decent comment and get burried. - somerandomnerd, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3"Because DRM can't tell when something is legal or illegal, it must curtail legal copying as well as illegal copying. That's DRM's fundamental nature, and it can't be fixed."
Hence systems like iTunes, where you can use something on [insert arbitrary figure] password-protected computers, or Steam where you can have it on as many machines as you like, but only use on one at a time.
So what's the alternative to allow the distribution of music with the approval of the record companies and publishers? (Bearing in mind that it's not in the interests of record companies for everyone to stop buying their music on CDs from record shops- in fact, it's quite the opposite.) - sadsac, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3The free market should be the test for DRM. We are still in the early stages of DRM penetration. When DRM becomes truly entrenched, and if consumers at large react negatively, the market will adjust or consumers will go away.
iTunes is not a good example of the restrictions of DRM because of the "burn CD" loophole. The consumer is still in full control because they can burn to a CD and transfer content to the device of their choice.
It will take extreme cases of DRM where consumers lose control and there are no loopholes. When people find that they can't record the TV programs they would like on their DVR, or if their DVR starts deleting programs after a certain number of days, they make choose not to buy content with such restrictions and the market should work to reduce the DRM.
The anti-circumvention law in the DMCA is the larger policy problem. Market forces will have no impact on this. Consumers should be able use products how they like. Just as people should lawfully be able to buy a car and change anything they like on it to better suit their needs, it also should not be illegal to use digital content privately however one sees fit - and if DRM gets in the way, it should not be unlawful to go around it. - RadiantBeing, on 10/12/2007, -1/+4Pornel, you just proved his point. You had no idea what the original "divx" was. The market will decide what level of DRM is acceptable, not some internet petition.
- chidade, on 10/12/2007, -2/+5And which DRM distributing company's PR department do you work for?
- dtfinch, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3I don't buy products I don't like.
- somerandomnerd, on 10/12/2007, -1/+4@spyrochaete
I think you're confusing DRM with intellectual property laws. IP laws say that you can't do things like copy music and give it to your friends, or sample or perform music and make money from it. DRM is a completely different issue. Without a DRM system in place to prevent people from ignoring IP laws, record companies simply won't allow online distribution of their music. - ozydingo, on 10/12/2007, -1/+4@spyrochaete
Ideally, yes, and hopefully that's exactly what will happen. For now, however, the larger comapnies that plan to put as many restrictions as possible on the flexibility of using their products are easily able to drown out those smaller companies. That combined with the general public's ignorance on what DRM is and how it affects what they buy makes if very difficult for that to happen. It's this type of thing that intoduces the unidealities in the market model beyond a simple "product X is better / less restrictive on its users than product Y and is priced the same so it becomes more succesful."
I'm doing my part by not supporting ridiculously DRM-laced products, and hope all reading this are doing the same. - spyrochaete, on 10/12/2007, -2/+5@ozy
Why not? If enough people hate DRM some small companies will make DRM-free players and media. If enough people embrace those devices the big companies will be forced to fall in line. - Bhima, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3@pornel
There is a way. I run an OpenBSD firewall / gateway. Doesn't matter if it downloaded or I rented it from the local videothek. Every piece of content I get comes through it and nothing comes through until after I've stripped the DRM crap off.
No root-kits, No DRM, No Viruses, And my personal peeve No "disabled user operations" (UOPs).
In fact my collection has *No Restrictions* of any sort. - UnnDunn, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2I, for one, hope that DRM scheme eventually takes off. Sun has its work cut out for itself though.
- michaelstone, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2"You can put a Beastie Boys album on your iPod, but if you lose your local file can you copy it from your iPod to your computer? If you bought it from ITMS you'll have to buy it AGAIN."
No, you're outright wrong. It's called backing up. By burning everything you download to a data CD or DVD or extra harddrive, you don't have to re-buy it. Of course, why let the facts get in the way of your illogical fight?
_________________________________________________________________
"DRM is not a good thing. Steam, iTMS, and everything else are all still possible without restricting how end users are allowed to use the content they buy. DRM hurts the customer while giving the company more money."
Really, now? Please explain why you need more that 5 computers and %u221E iPods to play your songs. Please explain why you would ever need to legally burn more than seven copies of one playlist. Explain why you're buying tracks from iTunes if you have a Creative player.
Also, explain why you're not equally angry that hundreds of thousands of people are dying in Darfur, Iran is currently making nuclear weapons which could easily lead to WWIII, and the current U.S. Administration is spying on their own citizens.
It just seems to me that the fight over DRM is insignificant when compared.
_______________________________________________________________
"And which DRM distributing company's PR department do you work for?"
And you explain why you felt the need for an ad hominem attack. - senfo, on 10/12/2007, -1/+3Don't use it? And how exactly do you propose that? It's not like a bar of soap you can avoid if it gives you an alergic reaction. If the movies and music you want come with a DRM implementation, you don't have much of a choice.
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