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Why writers get residuals (and why plumbers don't)
johnaugust.com — "My friend Jeff often jokes (half-jokes, I think) that he wishes he got residuals on spreadsheets he made in 2003...Why should screenwriters get paid extra money years after they finish their work? After all, plumbers don't get residuals. Neither do teachers, secretaries or auto workers." But they're at the heart of the ongoing WGA strike.
AirickDos- 582 diggs
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- sdabrucelee, on 11/13/2007, -8/+10A very well put break down of the strike. Even tho he's a writer, there isn't much/any slant in there.
Bravo!- garugaga, on 11/13/2007, -2/+6Site is getting slow. Here is a mirror:
http://johnaugust.com.nyud.net:8090/archives/2007/ ... - bitt3n, on 11/13/2007, -1/+9actually this doesn't seem to be a good explanation to me. the author says the spreadsheet writer doesn't get residuals because he's an employee creating a work for hire, while the script writer trades his authorship for residuals. yet someone who sells a spreadsheet to a company but who does not work for them could potentially receive royalties rather than upfront payment. the reason this doesn't happen is the fact that it's usually not easy to pinpoint how much money the spreadsheet brings in for the company. in the same way, a studio could conceivably fairly compensate a script writer without residuals. who would say that, for example, $100 M compensation with no residuals isn't fair for a given script? what the author should have said is that residuals are a useful way to motivate script writers to write scripts that will make a lot of money. residuals do not work for spreadsheets because it's not easy to determine how much money the spreadsheet's existence made for the company.
- crimson117, on 11/13/2007, -1/+10He never actually explained why "screenplay authors" deserve residuals but "spreadsheet authors" do not. His explanation for why screenplay writers get residuals was because novelists get royalties, and if you don't understand that he's done.
- Cwo655321, on 11/13/2007, -4/+6its still a weak argument. I write software for a living most of which gets used for years at a time; I don't get any residuals... what gives?
- AxeSwinger, on 11/13/2007, -1/+4The tech sector has never been able to organize to form a union.
- brundlefly76, on 11/13/2007, -0/+1Right - in order to have something, sometimes you have to actually *ask* for it.
In this case, you chose to accept a compensation plan which doesnt offer profit-sharing - if that is important to you, then you should work for a company that does - there are many.
However, if you are unwilling to do that, or start your own company, or successfully form a union which dictates such benefits, then you will work for market rate (i.e. the rate the guy in the next cube is willing to work for).
I have been a programmer for 12 years and have never had a job which did not involve profit-sharing - that was a choice I made early on. However, I have a business now and do not offer profit-sharing, instead I pay high wages, because it is a maintenance product and not a growth product, so the programmers doing extra quality work does not relate into profit growth - their compensation comes out of the growth that has already happened before I hired them.
There are definitely situations where I would pass on profit sharing in exchange for a high-wage package (like, in a bad economy or if I wanted to extend into a different area or industry).
- brundlefly76, on 11/13/2007, -1/+1The answer is not mysterious - profit sharing (residuals, stock options, percentages, etc) only makes sense when the contributors make a quality-based contribution which will affect the return on the product or service. Basically your screenwriter is a business partner, a plumber or a key grip is not - there is very little tied to what they do which will directly affect returns.
- garugaga, on 11/13/2007, -2/+6Site is getting slow. Here is a mirror:
- jacko7, on 11/13/2007, -5/+21So we'll march day and night by the big corporate towers, they have the shows but we have the power.
- jonnyeuchre, on 11/13/2007, -5/+29
Why do actors and directors get them and writers don't? Really, it's just marketing. Directors and actors are marketed as the 'stars'; but writers are the brains behind the whole operation.- Robbothehood, on 11/13/2007, -0/+6Actually, they all contribute.
- jonnyeuchre, on 11/13/2007, -2/+5Right. Like my girlfriend contributes to sex. If laying there thinking of the next handbag she's going to buy is 'contributing' then, by all means, give her the same credit
- alf86, on 11/13/2007, -0/+3You sound like a selfish lover.
- jonnyeuchre, on 11/13/2007, -2/+5Right. Like my girlfriend contributes to sex. If laying there thinking of the next handbag she's going to buy is 'contributing' then, by all means, give her the same credit
- starf, on 11/13/2007, -3/+1If they were the brains behind the whole operation, they would get producer credit. There's a lot of logistics that go into a production.
What you're getting at is that they create the backbone of the project.- ZenMojo, on 11/13/2007, -0/+2The writers are the backbone and the skeleton. Producers are the lifeblood. Directors are the brain. Actors are the other organs, some of them vestigial. Crew is the breath and benign bacteria.
- Bodhinature, on 11/13/2007, -1/+1Actually, writers DO get residuals. The strike is happening because studios don't want to pay residuals anymore to writers. They want to distribute the wealth unequally amongst themselves.
- Robbothehood, on 11/13/2007, -0/+6Actually, they all contribute.
- Ssj6Kirby, on 11/13/2007, -2/+41Plumbers get residuals. Just not the kind you normally think of.
- ZenMojo, on 11/13/2007, -0/+31Trickle down economics.
- tizz66, on 11/13/2007, -1/+1It sounds like plumbers get a raw deal to me - well, I hear they're always getting screwed, anyway.
- pjoslin83, on 11/14/2007, -0/+0Gives new meaning to the word reruns.
- samiringo, on 11/13/2007, -11/+4www.duggmirror.com
- samiringo, on 11/13/2007, -0/+6Ack, I'm sorry that didn't quite work out...
- nullcodes, on 11/13/2007, -6/+17You aren't supposed to get paid based on what other people get/negotiate. You arent even supposed to get paid according to how much a person you sold something to earns by utilizing it. You are supposed to get paid based on a contract you agree to. If you don't like the terms don't do the job.
If a plumber or a doctor wanted residuals I wouldn't hire them unless I REALLY wanted their service (ie, their service was of such great value and importance to me and there was nobody else I could hire on more favorable terms).- 3Den, on 11/13/2007, -2/+9Which is exactly what is happening.
They feel they have enough leverage to negotiate higher residuals.... that the studios ultimately REALLY need their services... and so they are taking action. - HanSolo69, on 11/13/2007, -0/+7Hence the reason that the WGA has decided it's time for a new contract.
- ZenMojo, on 11/13/2007, -0/+2I love these whole "the free market allows for these sorts of negotiations unless those people actually decide to negotiate, then they're assholes!" folks.
- 3Den, on 11/13/2007, -2/+9Which is exactly what is happening.
- Klak, on 11/13/2007, -1/+23people that make spreadsheets and plumbers are paid for their time not their "product"
- lazyfisherman, on 11/13/2007, -3/+0That's it right there.
- jerbaker, on 11/13/2007, -4/+42Because a script is an original invention, a personal creation of the writer(s). If a plumber invented a new device to ***** in and take it away from your house then she should get residuals, just as most inventors do. A spreadsheet could be said to be a creation, but it's not a new original product.
- Malcx, on 11/13/2007, -2/+21>>Because a script is an original invention
Not been to the movies lately then huh? - Robbothehood, on 11/13/2007, -1/+2Not so much an invention as a unique piece of art. The effect is the same though.
- trogdor282, on 11/13/2007, -0/+8Apparently you aren't an engineer for a large company. All your patents are belong to them.
- davidrools, on 11/13/2007, -1/+2Right. This is a point I think a lot of people are missing. The large company pays you a nice salary in exchange for you to come up with IP for them to make money off of. Whether or not your inventions are any good, you still get paid. They take a risk paying you in hopes that you will earn money for them. Not so with these writers. They are not paid just for showing up and doing their job. They get paid according to what their work produces, and they want a fair share.
- ZenMojo, on 11/13/2007, -0/+3Even engineers can demand their patents if it's negotiated.
- Bodhinature, on 11/13/2007, -1/+1Much like a script doctor doesn't get residuals for polishing/fixing a script, a plumber doesn't get residuals for fixing a toilet.
- whatmew0rry, on 11/13/2007, -3/+1From a copyright / originality point of view, there's nothing different between a screenplay and a spreadsheet. Just so happens that the WGA negotiated a std contract that grants writers residuals... If you want to be a consultant and develop spreadsheets and sell them with that revenue model (less up front, with royalties / residuals), that would be perfectly valid.
- Malcx, on 11/13/2007, -2/+21>>Because a script is an original invention
- hifiDesign, on 11/13/2007, -2/+5Why do actors get residuals for that matter? The writers' craft is at the core of what the actors, director, etc. put out and the writers should be paid thusly for the content.
- Robbothehood, on 11/13/2007, -1/+2Yes but the actors, the directors, and film crew are at the heart of the medium. A writer could flesh out a script into a book, but a film must be brought to life. This is probably where the bias in residuals comes from.
- BobSutan, on 11/13/2007, -0/+2It seems to me the fairest solution is to get rid of residuals all together, or give them to all involved. Basically stop the some do, some don't bs that is currently going on in Hollywood. Personally speaking, since I don't get residuals for the networks I create, build, and later will be resold, why should they continue to get paid for the work they've only done once?
- Cerebral, on 11/13/2007, -0/+1I agree. This is all some BS.
- BobSutan, on 11/13/2007, -0/+2It seems to me the fairest solution is to get rid of residuals all together, or give them to all involved. Basically stop the some do, some don't bs that is currently going on in Hollywood. Personally speaking, since I don't get residuals for the networks I create, build, and later will be resold, why should they continue to get paid for the work they've only done once?
- eclectro, on 11/13/2007, -0/+4Some actors get residuals, others don't. It depends on how well you can get your contract negotiated. Actors share one thing with writers though, they both do not have steady employment (usually).
- actorboy, on 11/13/2007, -0/+1All actors working under a SAG contract get residuals.
- Robbothehood, on 11/13/2007, -1/+2Yes but the actors, the directors, and film crew are at the heart of the medium. A writer could flesh out a script into a book, but a film must be brought to life. This is probably where the bias in residuals comes from.
- davewashere, on 11/13/2007, -4/+2I think the residuals are priced into the writers' salaries. There is no guarantee that their work will be any good or profitable, so they might get paid less than it's worth up front, with the idea that if their writing is a success (like a surprise blockbuster movie or hit TV show) they will get paid a lot more in residuals.
- eclectro, on 11/14/2007, -1/+1There's also no guarantee that the actors and directors will do a good job, or that the network will market the show or even decide to air it or not. Also, remember that 99% that is out there is not a blockbuster, nor can it be. Many people on digg love Battlestar Galactica, but it's ratings show that it is not a blockbuster (even though it is a good show - it's just that much of the public outside digg are not big science fiction fans). By using your method, there would be no reason why the writers should continue to write for Battlestar Galactica.
- tubular, on 11/13/2007, -3/+14because a plumber does not create intellectual property.
- bratpack8, on 11/13/2007, -0/+5what about computer programmers? game programmers? IP laws are yet another form of government intervention in what should be a simple trade between two parties.
- davidrools, on 11/13/2007, -1/+1The companies own the IP in exchange for paying their programmers a salary. If you want ownership of your own IP, you'll have to develop it on your own (which might cost too much money with lawyers, equipment, prototypes, etc., which is why you need to be a part of a larger company)
- bbq2007, on 11/13/2007, -1/+3Pooperty
- Spoomeister, on 11/13/2007, -0/+2Have you read the bill from your plumber for a major repair?
Perhaps not intellectual property, but it could be considered creative... - coldkodiak, on 11/13/2007, -0/+2most writers don't either.
Most work on existing IPs. - JFetch, on 11/13/2007, -0/+1They create a story that involves someone else's IP.
- 3Den, on 11/13/2007, -0/+0No, because if a plummer tried to negotiate that, another plummer would come and do the job - the plummer does not have the negotiating power to strike such a deal.
- bratpack8, on 11/13/2007, -0/+5what about computer programmers? game programmers? IP laws are yet another form of government intervention in what should be a simple trade between two parties.
- airstrike, on 11/13/2007, -9/+3what do writers have to do with windows genuine advantage?
- bingobongony, on 11/13/2007, -2/+3Gee, that joke hasn't been done the death in the last week.
- brokenspatula, on 11/13/2007, -9/+4I must ask the question why pizza drivers get tips for delivering pizzas... If it takes 5-10 minutes to deliver pizzas and you give him a 5 dollar tip, he makes roughly 30 dollars an hour driving food around.
- footodors, on 11/14/2007, -0/+9yea........stupid pizza delivery guys and their big ol' fancy hummers driving around like they own the joint!!
- bingobongony, on 11/13/2007, -2/+5I am not a cheapskate by any means, but how much pizza are you buying that your tip is $5?
- ElRayQuieres, on 11/13/2007, -0/+3I dunno, but now I'm hungry.
- spriggig, on 11/13/2007, -0/+4Stop tipping him and you'll know why.
- Pake, on 11/13/2007, -0/+5To pay for the gas plus wear and tear on the vehicle. He could ride a bike, but I doubt you order a pizza for it to be cold in 1hr late.
- Firehed, on 11/13/2007, -1/+5Sure, if all deliveries are within 2.5 minutes of the store, there's no traffic, and no waiting at either end of things. Chances are you're looking at closer to 2 or 3 deliveries an hour, and they're not reimbursed for gas.
- WhoDoneIt, on 11/13/2007, -0/+8Because pizza delivery people usually are on contract and don't actually work for the pizza company.
1. They use their own car to deliver pizzas and wear and tear aren't cheap. Insurance isn't cheap either when the insurance company realizes you are driving so much.
2. The don't get paid by the hour, they get paid by the delivery. It used to be $2 when I worked at a pizza joint in college.
3. They pay for their own gas
4. If they don't get tips, they don't earn hardly anything
5. Because they are delivering your pizzas to your fat ass when it would be just as easy for you to drive to the pizza joint in the dead of winter. - tuxidomasx, on 11/13/2007, -2/+2wtf gives a $5 tip?
half the people i know dont even give a dollar. i do 2 at the most. for a $15 pizza, thats about right- barc0001, on 11/13/2007, -1/+2I used to be a delivery driver. You ever wonder why your pizza arrives lukewarm? That's because if you always tip like that, we all know how you tip, and if we have 3 orders to deliver, guess who gets their pies last, even if you were just down the street from the pizza place.
And a cautionary tale. Whatever you do, don't ever be a smart ass with small change. If the bill comes to 19.95 and you hand over a twenty and tell the driver to keep the change, that will earn you a place on the ***** list forever. A guy I used to work with would make a note of whoever did that to him on a given night, then return much later on (like 3am later) and give back the nickel with a slingshot, usually making a nice hole in the siding on the house.
And what everyone else said. Gas, maintenance, insurance, etc. It all adds up, we didn't get rich doing that crap job.- grimw, on 11/13/2007, -0/+2So, basically, your friend was a douche who had a temper tantrum.
- barc0001, on 11/13/2007, -0/+1At what point in there did I call him a "friend"? I worked with him, that's all. His attitude was not at all uncommon among delivery drivers, so I'm just sayin' be careful. Delivery drivers will get a lot more pissed over a tiny tip than none at all, driver's logic being if you need all your change back, you might have a reason for it, but if you're saying "keep the change" on a nickel or a dime, obviously you don't actually care about cash, and you're just being a dick.
- grimw, on 11/13/2007, -0/+2So, basically, your friend was a douche who had a temper tantrum.
- barc0001, on 11/13/2007, -1/+2I used to be a delivery driver. You ever wonder why your pizza arrives lukewarm? That's because if you always tip like that, we all know how you tip, and if we have 3 orders to deliver, guess who gets their pies last, even if you were just down the street from the pizza place.
- MrDave2176, on 11/13/2007, -0/+2Because Pizza drivers, like wait staff in restaurants can be paid less than minimum wage to do their job because they work for wage + tips. Also, even though it only takes him 5 minutes to deliver your pizza, he has to return to the store to get his next pizza so that each customer can get it (in theory) piping hot. This means that for a 5 minute delivery time he has to be on the road for 10 minutes (5 out and 5 back). Assuming that every delivery is within his 5 minute radius, he has a practical limit of 5 deliveries per hour (10 minutes of driving + 2 minutes at each end collecting cash and pizzas). If you assume that he makes a 20% tip ($4 on a $20 order) he makes $20 in tips and might make $4.00 per hour for a grand total of $24.00 per hour. And this pays for his labor, the use of his personal vehicle, wear and tear and (assuming a 30 mph speed limit) up to 20 miles of driving every hour (that's almost 100 miles a day)...which drives up his insurance.
But that ASSUMES that people will PAY a tip. I can tell you from experience that only about half of the people do. So that drops him from $24/hour to about $14/hour right there. Not to say he doesn't have good nights and bad ones...but overall...it averages out. And there might be entire hours where nobody orders a pizza. he makes $4.00. THAT'll kill an average.
Papa Johns started a mandatory $2.00 delivery fee. This is, as far as I am concerned, a tip. It is less than I would give as a tip, but i resent being told I must pay it. They also pay their drivers more than "base pay" and pay them a real wage. So, in all it evens out for PJ. Me, I'd have rather kept it like it was...drivers will give good service to houses they know tip well. And I tipped well. Now, I just drive there and pick it up myself.
- ChuckAndBob, on 11/13/2007, -4/+4The writers are the people who really make movies and tv shows yet they're paid less than the actors who read the lines they wrote. They deserve much more than what they're demanding.
- lazyfisherman, on 11/13/2007, -2/+0the actors have the faces the masses recognize... and sometimes improvise dialogue etc. to make the movie better. I agree with you, though. Talented writers dream up what the producers and other suits can sell. Without them, there is no product worth selling and (some of) the actors have nothing to pretend.
- bratpack8, on 11/13/2007, -3/+1Neal and Bob, who decides the value of something? Value is decided by buyers and sellers, and that should be the only two parties involved. The WGA, the government, they should not be involved. Unless you are all knowing and know the value of everything?
- JFetch, on 11/13/2007, -0/+1Writers are no more important than actors and producers. They all need each other to get a project done.
- ZenMojo, on 11/13/2007, -0/+1Try selling pictures of an actor and copies of a writer's script. See which one nets you more money.
- bingobongony, on 11/13/2007, -1/+2I love how people act like the actors are just "reading hte lines". If that were true than anyone could do it and the show would be just as successful. Which is not true at all. There is a reason why the top actors are the top. And it is not just becauase they keep getting lucky with hte best writers.
- senatorpjt, on 11/13/2007, -0/+1So, why is it then? When I think of top actors, at least in terms of salary and popularity, they aren't particularly what I would call "good actors" (Schwarzenegger?) . Same with actresses, but I know why they're popular.
- actorboy, on 11/13/2007, -0/+1You're confusing talent with celebrity. There are some amazing actors you'll never notice, and they are some famous people who can't act but draw audiences, and on the rare occasion you get the two in one.
- bingobongony, on 11/13/2007, -1/+1Schwarzenegger is good at the movies he chooses to do. And they bring in money. If you take the same writing and stick someone else...even a big guy, into his roles, they would not do nearly as well.
- senatorpjt, on 11/13/2007, -0/+1So, why is it then? When I think of top actors, at least in terms of salary and popularity, they aren't particularly what I would call "good actors" (Schwarzenegger?) . Same with actresses, but I know why they're popular.
- MrDave2176, on 11/13/2007, -0/+2Also, the participation of a certain actor can guarantee a movie will make a certain amount of money. Their name translates into guaranteed minimum box office returns. This is why they can demand such high salaries. And only rarely do they get any sort of residual for the films in which they star. Generally they only do that if they take a much smaller pay and then they get ;'points' on the film's returns. It is a rare actor who makes more than their up-front fee for a movie that they star in (and probably why many actors get producer credits on films they star in...so they can share in the royalty pie).
- jonnyeuchre, on 11/13/2007, -1/+5the same reason the song writer does
- mlblac02, on 11/13/2007, -1/+1Writers on strike? I guess that pretty much proves the "culture industry" theory.
- galeninjapan, on 11/13/2007, -4/+2Writing a spreadsheet or plunging a toilet isn't creative, writing a screenplay is.
- glucoseboy, on 11/13/2007, -1/+3Really??? Writing a spreadsheet or fixing a toilet isn't creative? I consider many of my spreadsheets "works of art".
Creativity comes in many shapes and forms.- sugarazor, on 11/13/2007, -0/+1Are there many people out there buying your spreadsheets from third-party retailers?
- Firehed, on 11/13/2007, -0/+1And I call your spreadsheets a waste of formatting tools. I've made some quite well-laid-out spreadsheets in my time that present information very effectively, and I wouldn't call any of them a work of art by any stretch of the imagination.
I will, however, often create works of art in toilets.
- bratpack8, on 11/13/2007, -2/+3What about computer programmers? What about architects? What about landscapers? What about inventors of new moves on a basketball court or snowboarder on a mountain?
- Cthulhufan, on 11/13/2007, -0/+0Actually, screenwriting today has become a "write by numbers" industry. You take the Joseph Campell "Hero" template, add your favorite flavors, and you've got a screenplay. If you doubt that, take a look at the "tentpole" blockbusters. All of them follow the same formula.
- glucoseboy, on 11/13/2007, -1/+3Really??? Writing a spreadsheet or fixing a toilet isn't creative? I consider many of my spreadsheets "works of art".
- daizaru, on 11/13/2007, -4/+10I got nothing against them making residuals, but it's the fact that even while they strike they'll make money off reruns while everyone else working on the show isn't.
The problem is, this is the dozenth time a writer has written to justify why they are doing it... and nobody really has an issue with the fact they think they deserve more money. Most people will agree, but it's still the method and who else gets hurt by a really long strike.
They need to justify why it's worth other people suffering over it to me.
I just hope the strike is short, and it has nothing to do with the TV I'll miss.- sugarazor, on 11/13/2007, -1/+7The writers aren't getting the same perks that the actors are. If it were the other way around and the actors were striking, then the writers would be out of work too. Unfortunately in situations like this, innocent people get caught in the crossfire, so to speak. Yeah, the actors are out of work, and that really sucks for them but they really have no one to blame but the studio execs.
- daizaru, on 11/13/2007, -1/+1Most of the actors are financially secure, and if they did strike my gripes with them would be the same as my current gripes with this strike. I'm talking about the thousands of people who aren't unionized and are out of work too. The actors actually are gaining from this strike for when they get renegotiated next year, I'm sure not many of them are complaining.
- actorboy, on 11/13/2007, -0/+1Wait, most actors are financially secure? You are very wrong about that.
- daizaru, on 11/13/2007, -1/+1Most of the actors are financially secure, and if they did strike my gripes with them would be the same as my current gripes with this strike. I'm talking about the thousands of people who aren't unionized and are out of work too. The actors actually are gaining from this strike for when they get renegotiated next year, I'm sure not many of them are complaining.
- dkm201, on 11/13/2007, -0/+7I think it's shortsighted to blame the largely middle-class writers for the fact that there's a strike, and not the 'richest-people-on-earth' studios. Writers might be making money off residuals during the strike, but it's nothing compared to what the STUDIOS are making from that same work during the strike.
- daizaru, on 11/13/2007, -1/+1I personally think it would be short sighted to view them as completely blameless. I'm not saying the studios are perfectly innocent either.
I just think all these articles trying to justify their actions are a bit like guilt displacement... because nobody is really taking issue with the fact that they want more residuals.- actorboy, on 11/13/2007, -0/+1They get no residuals on internet, even though studios like NBC stream their work in its entirety and are getting ad revenue in doing so. They don't want *more* pay -- they want to *be* paid.
- daizaru, on 11/13/2007, -1/+1I personally think it would be short sighted to view them as completely blameless. I'm not saying the studios are perfectly innocent either.
- senatorpjt, on 11/13/2007, -4/+1I don't think the writers deserve more money, I think the actors and execs deserve less.
- Bodhinature, on 11/13/2007, -0/+3Actors don't get paid as much as you think they do. Only a handful of the most well publicized actors make big money. The Unions are there to protect the little actors and writers, not just the interests of the elite ones.
- Cerebral, on 11/13/2007, -1/+1That's bull that actors don't make as much as we think. They are also part of a union and they make good money for what they do.
- actorboy, on 11/13/2007, -0/+1I'm a SAG actor. I worked in 6 or 7 films last year and made less than $25,000.
- senatorpjt, on 11/13/2007, -0/+1For what actors do, that sounds about right.
- Cerebral, on 11/13/2007, -1/+1That's bull that actors don't make as much as we think. They are also part of a union and they make good money for what they do.
- Bodhinature, on 11/13/2007, -0/+3Actors don't get paid as much as you think they do. Only a handful of the most well publicized actors make big money. The Unions are there to protect the little actors and writers, not just the interests of the elite ones.
- MrDave2176, on 11/13/2007, -0/+5The WGA agrees that a strike is the least effective way to make their point, but what other alternatives do they have? The studios are stonewalling and putting their heads in the sand when it comes to the real concerns that the WGA is voicing. NO residuals for internet content? What kind of BS is that? The strike is a wake-up call to the studios. It forces them to deal with the WGA's issues. They've played the "not now" tune too long.
- Cerebral, on 11/13/2007, -1/+1It's not a wake up call to the studios. They have enough hot air to do nothing more than turn all TV into reality TV until writers come back.
- Bodhinature, on 11/13/2007, -0/+2Yes, many non-union crew are SOL, a forgotten casualty of most entertainment strikes. Many won't last a month. And the actors aren't working either.
- sugarazor, on 11/13/2007, -1/+7The writers aren't getting the same perks that the actors are. If it were the other way around and the actors were striking, then the writers would be out of work too. Unfortunately in situations like this, innocent people get caught in the crossfire, so to speak. Yeah, the actors are out of work, and that really sucks for them but they really have no one to blame but the studio execs.
- daxsymbiont, on 11/13/2007, -9/+4oh yeah, leave all the money to the super rich sitting their asses doing nothing.
you ***** dumb *****.- bingobongony, on 11/13/2007, -4/+1Doing nothing except taking all the financial risk.
The venture capitalists who financed YouTube "sat on their asses doiing nothing", and made almost a billion dolalrs doing it. - abaaa, on 11/13/2007, -0/+0most artists and writers put a lot of effort into creating their work, and deserve every cent of their profits. and most artists don't even get "super rich." most royalties don't even pay off how much effort and time (let alone the investment put into it) for a while until it MIGHT get popular.
- bingobongony, on 11/13/2007, -4/+1Doing nothing except taking all the financial risk.
- Lewisham, on 11/13/2007, -5/+20This guy did a really great job of convincing me that actually plenty of other people are perfectly entitled to royalties as well.
I write code for a living. People come back to that code, and they're pleased it still works. I should get royalties for that. The typographer for a book made sure the book looked nice, so it sold more, so he should get royalties too. The plumber who fixes a pipe well and lasting should be paid royalties for the fact it still works and still provides excellent service to the owner of the pipes.
All this article says is that good people deserve to be paid for work that lasts. What he doesn't do is justify why writers are any different to anyone else, except that they have weird laws surrounding copyright, which forms the basis of their work's protection.- teadrinker, on 11/13/2007, -1/+9You can, all you need to do is to put that into the contract. So start your own consulting company, make software, and sell it with a per use/ per year fee. Nothing restricts you from that.
These writers sold their copyrights on the contract that they would be paid per use. They are striking to get those contracts renegotiated. Perhaps if they kept the copyrights, they would be able to renegotiate the contracts without striking, by simply preventing distribution. - Firehed, on 11/13/2007, -1/+4So charge more or negotiate royalties. If your code is good enough, it shouldn't be that hard. That's the real issue here. You can charge whatever you want if the work is good enough; royalties are just a matter of whether you get the money upfront or over time. However, as a coder, your royalties tend to come in the form of return business (or not replacing you) - people know your work is good, and continue to pay for your skills. Either get more up-front, or get less up-front and make sure you continue to be paid while the code is in use. The end result is probably about the same; it's more a matter of which fits the budget better.
- bratpack8, on 11/13/2007, -0/+3Then go negotiate that in your next employment contract. I would not doubt that the top programmers do get royalties in exchange for working for less (i.e. sharing the risk).
- demiurgency, on 11/13/2007, -0/+2If you are like myself and 90% of software engineers out there, you are not paid to be creative. You are paid to create a product that meets specifications, and nothing else. There are good coders, and horrendous coders, but even if you are at the top of your field, the most you are supposed to deliver is a product that has been specced out for you.
That's not to say that writing code well does not require creativity. It sure does. It involves innovative solutions to unanticipated problems, the occasional ad-hoc design when the requirements are lacking, an eye for good coding standards and clean source, etc. I personally write code because it is fun, has the intrinsic rewards of any creative process, and pays well (for the relative work involved).
Writing a screenplay (except for the worst kind of formulaic, Hollywood schlock) is not akin to writing code or welding pipe. It is however, akin to designing a software product. You can bet your bottom dollar that Mark Zuckerberg, Kevin Rose, and John Carmack all receive hefty residuals from their coding.
A screenplay is an individual piece of art. No other writer on earth could have written that script and have it be the same product. Very, very few software engineers or plumbers are in that same position.
I'm in favor of this strike because the bar for television writing has been raised very, very high with shows like BSG, the Sopranos, Dexter, etc. I can't think of a single film from the past two years (ok, one film, Cashback) that is as good any any single episode of 'Rome'. I would love to see the writers be compensated handsomely for their excellence. - MrDave2176, on 11/13/2007, -0/+3Then you didn't read the same article I did. It said that as a programmer, you are hired as an employee to write code. That code is "work for hire" and isn't YOUR code, it is the company's code. If you had SOLD code to the company as an independant contractor you could charge an annual "licence fee" which...strangely enough...is what a LOT of programmers do. But they OWN the company that owns the code don't they? I say quit your job and write your own damn code and see if the company wants to buy it. If they do, you can dictate the terms under which they use it (EULA).
- ef4g, on 11/13/2007, -0/+0And "work-for-hire" isn't part of "weird laws surrounding copyright"? I understand a contract disagreement. But people seem to be taking a tone of moral-superiority. I don't see why I should be morally outraged. What's the MORAL argument?
- ZenMojo, on 11/13/2007, -0/+2You know, this just means coders should establish a union. Do you think writers magically had the share of royalties they have now? Currently comic writers and artists are in the same boat as coders. You're a young industry without strong group solidarity, so maybe it is in your best interests to unionize?
- teadrinker, on 11/13/2007, -1/+9You can, all you need to do is to put that into the contract. So start your own consulting company, make software, and sell it with a per use/ per year fee. Nothing restricts you from that.
- bratpack8, on 11/13/2007, -1/+3Shouldn't these deals be based on a negotiation between a writer and a producer, or studio? To claim that everything written for the screen, or a novel, or a song for that matter, deserves payment for everyone sold is making the assumption that every writer wants that deal. What if a writer says he is happy to take $100K for a script and not have to see another dime? It's a simple trade folks, and trades only occur when both parties believe they are getting something better in return than what they are giving up, at that particular moment in time. For someone, such as this blogger, to say that all writer's want royalties, or else, is pure arrogance.
Here's an example from another industry. I had started a company 15 years ago, and after 5 years, as we were growing, I was offered money to sell my shares. I could sell all of my shares, none, or a number in between. I choose to sell some and take a risk on the company being worth more down the line. But I could have just said, I want to sell all and good luck to you all! So why can't a writer say, I'll take XX dollars now, and don't want royalties? Doesn't sound like a voluntary transaction between two parties, that's for sure.- bingobongony, on 11/13/2007, -1/+1That's unions for you.
- Bodhinature, on 11/13/2007, -0/+1Sometimes that happens. Its called a buyout. If a writer doesn't like the way a guild handles things, they don't have to join. But there's a double edged sword to that.
- ZenMojo, on 11/13/2007, -0/+2Join a union or don't, but understand that unions exist for a reason and that is consolidating the power to negotiate, taking it out of the hands of lone individuals and putting it into the same organization that a studio has. Individual writers lack power and money, but together they get both.
- abaaa, on 11/13/2007, -0/+0well that's a matter of selling your copyrights/publishing rights to someone. and a writer/artist can do that; they just sell their potential royalties to someone else for x amount of money.
- Lindane, on 11/13/2007, -6/+1They should get real jobs if writing isn't bringing them the financial rewards they feel entitled to.
- Bodhinature, on 11/13/2007, -0/+1Jealous much?
- ZenFountain, on 11/13/2007, -0/+3The way I see this, as a total outsider, is that it's a choice between:
A) Mindless TV: Reality shows / sports / game shows etc.
B) Good TV
I don't watch a lot of TV, but the thought of watching Seinfeld reruns and reality TV for the next 8 months does not excite me at all. Lost and BSG were both delayed until next year and I don't want to wait even longer =(- senatorpjt, on 11/13/2007, -0/+2Foreign TV. Some is good, some is bad, but none is written by WGA members.
- murf43143, on 11/13/2007, -3/+6Because millions of ***** people enjoy their ***** EVERYDAY.
Not one stupid jerk at an office using something maybe twice a week.... - Berkana, on 11/13/2007, -1/+5Making a comparison to plumbers is short sighted, and not fair to the writers. Plumbing is material work, but writers produce intelectual property that keeps making money. If someone keeps selling their work and making money off of it long after their work was completed, ask yourself: is it fair that the distributor reap all the wealth for their hard work? Of course not. The writers who produce work that keeps earning money deserve a cut brought in by their hard work.
It shouldn't be a comparison between plumbers and writers; it should be between writers and producers. If money keeps getting made off the sale and distribution of their hard work, they deserve residuals. - alpharaptor, on 11/13/2007, -0/+3our "residuals" are call backs, service contracts, referals and a good reputation. on VERY rare occasions a good plumber may be on retainer so a company doesn't lose him.
- bratpack8, on 11/13/2007, -1/+6"Because residuals are royalties paid to an author. They’re not a bonus. They’re a guaranteed payment to the writer in exchange for giving up copyright and authorship claims."
Okay, if that is what is negotiated between the two parties. But just because someone signs over copyright and authorship doesn't guarantee them squat. And I'm a writer, unfortunately one who understands basic economics and apparently, when things are mutually exclusive. - npoc, on 11/13/2007, -2/+3I'm an engineer. My company makes thousands of dollars every time they sell a new widget.
Why don't I deserve royalties by the same logic.- senatorpjt, on 11/13/2007, -0/+5Hire a lawyer and get royalties put in your contract next time.
- ravage86, on 11/13/2007, -0/+3Because you don't have a nation wide union? And if you do, its not one of their goals.
- Bodhinature, on 11/13/2007, -0/+2You do. Time to start a Union, buddy.
- Jeveran, on 11/13/2007, -0/+1You do. It's called salary, health insurance, vacation & sick time, and a 401K
- ZenMojo, on 11/13/2007, -0/+2I believe there's an organization of Black Engineers specifically out there because African-Americans are heavily exploited in high-tech industries (I've seen it myself frequently even though I'm not an engineer). If more engineers were motivated, they could organize a new union.
- eclectro, on 11/13/2007, -0/+1Because you did not get a patent on your widget and ask for royalties or make it a part of your contract?
- anchor, on 11/13/2007, -7/+1Screw the writers, hire some fresh, new, un-unionized writers.
When they come back on their hands and knees begging for their old jobs back, (and they will, it's not like they can thrive anywhere else) hire them back at severely reduced pay.
That'll show'em! - solo1181, on 11/13/2007, -4/+2Writers get residue, because they don't shower. Then again neither do plumbers. That is strange.
- Codex77, on 11/13/2007, -2/+2Creativity=unique vision of a person. No one else could make the exact thing that a writer writes. Take a subject and every person assigned to write about it will come up with a different version. That's why they deserve residuals. Come to think of it, web designers deserve residuals too :)
- eclectro, on 11/13/2007, -0/+1It could be argued that some web designers who own their own website do get continuing payment.
- coldkodiak, on 11/13/2007, -3/+2I work in games, and I know that the only person who gets royalties on characters or ideas designed by the studio is the guy who owns the company. Why should writers, who didn't even for the most part have any part in creating the intellectual property they are working on in the first place, get paid for contributions they made years ago?
If the writer created the IP, let them have the royalties. If not, too bad.- eclectro, on 11/13/2007, -1/+3It's unfortunate that game artists do not form a union, to prevent thee kind of crap from happening like what did at EA games. Maybe as a game maker you should think about the long term prospects of your employment situation. How close are you to being laid off if your games do not sell? I think that the guy who made Sim City gets royalties, and people who makes games maybe should get royalties.
Don't be a tool for your employer and regret it later. - Jeveran, on 11/13/2007, -0/+2There are (game) developers who pay minimal salary + royalties to the creative talent behind entertainment software. Other developers pay nice salaries to their employees & salaries + royalties to the equity holders in the companies. It varies from developer to developer. Publishers with in-house development largely pay salary only except to goose-that-laid-the-golden-egg senior designers or producers they have on staff. It really varies from company to company.
- actorboy, on 11/13/2007, -0/+1Which is why entertainment unions were formed -- to standardize base pay rates, enforce fair working conditions, provide health insurance and see that artists and crews are paid fairly for their work.
- eclectro, on 11/13/2007, -1/+3It's unfortunate that game artists do not form a union, to prevent thee kind of crap from happening like what did at EA games. Maybe as a game maker you should think about the long term prospects of your employment situation. How close are you to being laid off if your games do not sell? I think that the guy who made Sim City gets royalties, and people who makes games maybe should get royalties.
- alastria, on 11/13/2007, -4/+3Writers should get residuals, and so should teachers.
Side proposal: When a student grows up and joins the workforce, all teachers he/she had share 0.5% of the student's annual salary.- eclectro, on 11/13/2007, -0/+3Teachers get a steady paycheck. Writers do not. RTFA
- linuxrebel, on 11/13/2007, -0/+3I think it's absolutely hilarious..... after all of this time the RIAA and MPAA etc etc are getting their just deserts. First they create the Sonny Bono law and extend copyright to some far distant future, then complain and cry foul when the creators of the copyrighted material want a cut of the action. HAHA
- Groovydoo, on 11/13/2007, -4/+1It's quite hard to feel sorry for; (well, in some cases), for millionaires! I heard one writer griping that it was his residuals that kept him alive from that '80's schlock comedy, 'Golden Girls,' all the way up till he finally landed another gig called "Desperate House Wives"
This strike is all about stuff that sells on the web. Trust me, I worked for Movielink and nobody is making money in that space, including iTunes- eclectro, on 11/13/2007, -0/+3The vast vast majprity are not millionares. RTFA on this (past ones too). Just like there are many actors and extras, but very few George Clooneys.
- Deadpin, on 11/13/2007, -3/+1Writer's make enough to get by comfortably, but having them take on some of the risk that they don't have the luxury of taking would cut down the number of prospective professional writers. They don't have the financial backing huge production companies to afford a flop.
- maxwhirl, on 11/13/2007, -0/+7A very simple way to understand residuals/royalties is that the producer/publisher pays the author LESS THAN what they both agree the work is worth. The writer gives the producer a "bargain" with the hope that she will make more in the long run by participating in the profits. If the producers want to stiff the writers on residuals, they simply need to pay more up front. This makes sense for work that can have such varied value. A plumber's work has a constant value.
- foolofatook, on 11/13/2007, -2/+1Must be nice to be in a profession where you can strike whenever you are unsatisfied with pay or working conditions (3+ years and counting Army)
- Jeveran, on 11/13/2007, -0/+1Going on strike isn't an individual effort, however. If you and your regiment were to go on strike, it'd be called mutiny or insurrection or something, and it's against the law, as spelled out in the UCMJ. In comparison, union members do not usually deal in lethal force against armed opposition, and are bound by bylaws and contractual obligations.
- eclectro, on 11/13/2007, -0/+1Well thank the fact that you have a 40 hour workweek to previous generations that fought (and striked) for that right. Don't be so shortsighted.
- natedouglas, on 11/13/2007, -1/+3This is a topic of great interest to me (I'm writing a series of ten books on the virtues of cranberry juice, even in an age with record underwater basket weaving).
The way I see it, the issue of residuals is ultimately arbitrary. If a show (let's call it Tales From the Widget) functions, and you make money off it, shouldn't everyone who contributed to the proper functioning of the show receive a proportional reward? But if Dave Fitzgerald provided the script, and he really just rewrote an old episode of Star Trek, then shouldn't the original scriptwriter make money from it? And shouldn't Gene Roddenberry's estate get some credit? And William Shatner, who ad-libbed a bit of dialogue that ended up being the crucial point in your Bonfire of the Widgets tale some forty years later? And, in fact, shouldn't the characters as portrayed by Shatner, Nimoy, et al receive some credit since no doubt the original scriptwriter had their nuances of performance in mind when he wrote the script?
This sounds absurd, and it is! There's no way to gauge all that, or track even a small percentage of the flow of intellectual property from one entity to the next. Discussing this philosophically, as the essayist does (and as many of the comments on Digg do) leads to complete absurdity.
Fight for every penny you can, if you're a writer, or a plumber, or a Civil War scholar specializing in the consumption of shellfish among enlisted men in Andersonville. But don't try to justify it logically, because it just ends up sounding absurd, and it's moot anyway if your business model is going to hell in a hand basket. - Pikachelsea, on 11/13/2007, -0/+1Along the same lines, I'd like to know why people in the food business get tips for doing their job and everybody else doesn't. And sorry, "because they don't make much money" isn't a good reason. As a web developer, nobody gave me extra free money when I first started my job and wasn't making much money.
- Jeveran, on 11/13/2007, -1/+1I bet that as a web designer your face-time per day was measured in minutes, not hours; the number of people with whom you interacted was measured in high single or low double digits, and you didn't necessarily have to be measurably pleasant to any of them; and you weren't responsible for handling biologically sensitive material that could either immediately nourish or poison your clients, depending on how you handled it. I mean, what part of web design can be lethal if you misstrike a few keys?
Also, if you don't like the convention, then don't tip. But then, don't expect pleasant service, either.- Pikachelsea, on 11/13/2007, -0/+1So if your job entails a lot of human interaction, you automatically deserve free money? Are you saying that a waitress should have the right to be a total jerk to all the customers if she thinks she didn't get a big enough tip, which is nothing but a totally arbitrary decision? Or are you saying that I'm only paying for the food and I have to pay extra if I don't want to be treated like garbage by the employees? If they want more money then they can raise the prices on their menu. Don't whine for a hand-out and then get peeved when you don't get one.
The whole attitude of "If I don't get my extra free money for no good reason, even though you already paid your bill, then you don't get good service" is so ridiculous. Nobody can present a single good reason that those people should get tips.
- Pikachelsea, on 11/13/2007, -0/+1So if your job entails a lot of human interaction, you automatically deserve free money? Are you saying that a waitress should have the right to be a total jerk to all the customers if she thinks she didn't get a big enough tip, which is nothing but a totally arbitrary decision? Or are you saying that I'm only paying for the food and I have to pay extra if I don't want to be treated like garbage by the employees? If they want more money then they can raise the prices on their menu. Don't whine for a hand-out and then get peeved when you don't get one.
- Jeveran, on 11/13/2007, -1/+1I bet that as a web designer your face-time per day was measured in minutes, not hours; the number of people with whom you interacted was measured in high single or low double digits, and you didn't necessarily have to be measurably pleasant to any of them; and you weren't responsible for handling biologically sensitive material that could either immediately nourish or poison your clients, depending on how you handled it. I mean, what part of web design can be lethal if you misstrike a few keys?
- londubh, on 11/13/2007, -0/+4and writers should get residuals. in fact they should get more.
- ZenSuckit, on 11/13/2007, -1/+1This article could have used better argument. He definitely lost me. The software program I work on makes a lot of money for my company. I don't get paid every time someone logs on, or clicks my buttons and checkboxes. Maybe there was a good argument further down but he told me to stop reading...
- Jeveran, on 11/13/2007, -0/+1Are you paid a nice salary with benefits for coding that software? The screenwriter of a movie is probably working a "day job" and writing at night to complete his script, hoping that he can sell it for residuals, and the resulting film is a hit.
Are you the original creator of the software you work on? That is, did you come up with the idea for it, how to implement all its features, how to correct all its bugs? A screenwriter usually develops his work from whole cloth. He isn't editing & changing someone else's legacy work to make a script.
- Jeveran, on 11/13/2007, -0/+1Are you paid a nice salary with benefits for coding that software? The screenwriter of a movie is probably working a "day job" and writing at night to complete his script, hoping that he can sell it for residuals, and the resulting film is a hit.
- dub227, on 11/13/2007, -0/+1Here is something else to dwell on. I do VFX for major motion pictures. I get no royalties no residuals and sometimes no on screen credit (due to credit politics). I spend 14-18 hour days for years on a single movie getting it to screen. So ask yourself did you go see transformers for the writing or the vfx? Discuss.
- Jeveran, on 11/13/2007, -0/+1Were you paid a salary while you were manipulating software packages or building models for the movie? The screenwriter wasn't. His income is from the residuals.
- dub227, on 11/13/2007, -0/+0Most are freelance and as such get compensated for day rates. Which only can take you through a project. After the movie is done as are you. Most of the top 5 vfx companies will hire 100-200 people to staff up and then the min its delivered, they purge. All those artists are left with what they made in that period to find a new movie.
- Jeveran, on 11/13/2007, -0/+1Were you paid a salary while you were manipulating software packages or building models for the movie? The screenwriter wasn't. His income is from the residuals.
- redwallhp, on 11/13/2007, -0/+2Because if someone is making money off your creation, you'd bloody well be making money off it too.
- actorboy, on 11/13/2007, -0/+1You win the in-a-nutshell award. +1
- pagit, on 11/13/2007, -1/+1With alot of the crap on tv the writers' residuals should be on toilet paper
- kiddx, on 11/13/2007, -0/+1What happens if the studios lose money? do the writers take a pay cut then? this is the kind of thing thats ridiculous about unions and stuff. If you dont like it go open your own studio. Look at GMAC losing money every year and the employees are arguing over a plant closing to stream line. Its not like they are taking their business to India, or some 3rd world country like WalMart. You have a job, you chose to work there, you can choose to leave. WTF is wrong with these people to idiotic to go out on their own.
If it was me I would fire all of them for not showing up and hire a bunch of creative, starving actors, students, and people who *love* the industry and wouldnt mind only making 75k to be a part of it (or whatever they get paid).
These are reasons why companies move their stuff overseas because they get annoyed - vinny, on 11/13/2007, -0/+1I'm sure I don't understand the details of the dispute, but do writers share in any losses the studio incurs on a flop? If not, why should they reap additional rewards when it does well? The studio is taking on the risk, not the writers. I assume they get paid no matter what.
Plumbers probably aren't the best comparison, but I'm a software writer and when I contribute to an application that is sold, I don't get paid more for each copy. Why not? Because I'm not footing the bill for the cost of producing that software. Why are writers any different? - Kinneas, on 11/13/2007, -0/+1A writer or artist creates a commodity out of thin air. Does a plumber? Ideas are a commodity just as gasoline is. You diminish and debase what the product is.
- Chubs879, on 11/13/2007, -0/+1Plumbers don't get squat because the average plumbing company doesn't deal with billions and billions of dollars.
- danc4498, on 11/13/2007, -0/+1Because when a plumber finishes his job, his job doesn't go on to make millions more than what he got for doing the job. Usually, his job just gets ***** on it :)
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