What is Digg?377 Comments
- whtnoise, on 10/11/2007, -9/+102okay, this comes from mr. thompson's website: tommy thompson for president (god ***** forbid) http://www.tommy2008.com/Healthcare.aspx
"Governor Thompson believes we must build a system that is affordable and accessible for everyone. And we can do this without a government-run health care program that includes the worst aspects of socialized medicine while robbing our great nation of its ingenuity in developing new cures and treatments for deadly illnesses."
mr. thompson's also the shmuck that suggested every american should be rfid chipped.
*****. - jazzjeff, on 10/11/2007, -3/+69I live in Ireland. I pay my taxes so the government says at the very least I am entitled to, is free health care.
Its a basic, basic right.
What the heck are Americans paying taxes for if they are not even getting their basic health rights?
If this was any other country, there would be daily protests on the streets... its now sleepy and complacent
America though and some will always come up with some excuse not to provide basic health care to its tax
paying citizens.
Sad, very sad, the whole mess! No wonder USA is 37th worst off in the world! - JackSrenton, on 10/11/2007, -3/+68I think id rather wait in line to see the doctor, then not get to see one at all.
- bradallen18, on 10/11/2007, -1/+63let's just set the record straight on these "lines."
I live in New Brunswick, Canada. It's a lot like Maine.
If I have to see a Doctor have 3 options.
1) Call up my family doctor and book an appointment, usually in the same 3 days of my call (depending on how urgent i need to see him).
2) I can go to the hospital. This will vary in time because they go by priority most of the time.
3) I can go to an after hours clinic and get looked at within the hour.
If I'm dying I call 911.
I have insurance and that's mostly for teeth and life.
If you need to see a doctor RIGHT AWAY you can. it's not like you have to wait in line with a stab wound. - compgeek, on 10/11/2007, -6/+47that's just a sad sad attempt to discredit Mr. Moore after Sicko already proved that every other country in the world that he went to (I live in Canada viva us!!!!) had free government health care and everything seemed to work. you americans pay out the ass for surgery or any other medical treatment. If you pay such high taxes there should be government health care. you'd actually wait less to see a doctor if it were serious. over minor things yes you will wait but if it's life threatening you're in right away
- catalysis, on 10/11/2007, -9/+47Yes, conservatives are against universal health care.
- tommyhat, on 10/11/2007, -2/+32I'm canadian and I've never had to wait longer than 20 mins to see a doctor. It's all *****.
- jazzjeff, on 10/11/2007, -4/+27I wouldn't have expected anything less from the profit making side the health care industry.
It was expected in some form or fashion. The distracting of the core issues and the whitewash begins...
Expect more of the same and more sneakier tactics also to be used. Its expected.
Make your next vote count when you remember all this! - 00Sean00, on 10/11/2007, -1/+22Of course what this ad completely misses is that movie theaters are NOT socialized, yet still has lines. Thankfully I live in Canada, and yes the lines for new releases tend to be longer than the wait for my doctor for non-life threatening needs. Last year when my mother suffered a heart arrhythmia, she was seen by a doctor in approximately 5 minutes of arriving at the hospital.
Smoke and mirrors folks. - uberdilly, on 10/11/2007, -3/+23Wow. I feel bad for you americans.
- inactive, on 10/11/2007, -5/+25the united states spends 575billion dollars a year on its military budget!
we could and should half that and give all americans health insurance. ***** the military/industrial complex.
americans want to take care of our americans! stop empire building and start family building! - supernovasky, on 10/11/2007, -2/+21I'll never vote for a candidate that does not support universal health care, including Ron Paul. I, as a child and young teenager, have been at that place where you're just above the poverty line, unable to get medical care but unable to afford it yourself because the medical care costs tens of thousands. Even with tax breaks and leaving it to competition, it wont be enough to bring it down to affordable levels for families like mine... there are millions out there that are like I was when I was younger, and now that I've got a vote and a voice, I think that all of us deserve nothing less than fully subsidized healthcare.
- MJG2007, on 10/11/2007, -4/+20I will never understand people who think government-funded is such a horrible thing. Does it bother you that our military is government funded? Does it bother you that the police and fire department are government funded? Does it bother you that the roads you drive on are government funded?
In case you didn't bother to read the constitution WE THE PEOPLE are the government. If we go to a government funded system, WE THE PEOPLE are the ones that are going to be paying for it. The only difference is that instead of a for-profit insurance company jacking up your health care costs and premiums to enrich themselves at the expense of people who need health care, it will be paid for with our tax dollars, which in turn would be offset by the fact that we no longer are beholden to our employers to provide us with group coverage paying high premiums and making us act like beggars in our society. Every other country that has universal health care already pays less than we do for health care per capita with better outcomes, so why is everyone so concerned that somehow we'd end up paying more than we already do at this point?
As a person who now works in the health care industry, a day doesn't go by that I don't see people having to make choices that NO ONE should ever have to make. I see people choosing to pay for arthritis medications instead of heart medication or insulin because because they simply can't afford all the medicines they need. People in that situation often choose to risk an early death with limited pain over a prolonged existence with chronic pain. Or you get even more heartbreaking examples such as people choosing between treating one illness or another such as the hypertension AND diabetes choosing one medication over the other because they simply cannot afford both. I also get to see people having their prescriptions sent back to them medication unfilled for inability to pay, and each time I say to myself "There but for the grace of God go I".
If we can spend 1.2 trillion dollars to invade some ***** hole in the middle east that wasn't a threat to us, there is absolutely no reason we can't afford to make sure our people all have access to decent health care and medications. Every other first world industrialized country has managed it, but somehow, the supposedly greatest country on earth can't figure out how to provide health care to all it's citizens?
I don't buy that for one instance. It's not a matter of being unable to do it. It is simply a matter of greed and unwillingness to do so.
We pay more per capita than countries with universal health care.
We pay nearly double in just administrative costs of countries that have universal health care.
We get less for our dollar than countries with universal health care.
We still have waiting lists and rationing just like countries with universal health care. Don't believe it? Just look at your policy from your health plan and see what is covered and what isn't. HMO's are nothing but rationing. The example someone used of seeing a nurse practitioner instead of a doctor being the result of having universal health care in some countries is a reality in our supposedly free-market system her in the US. I've been there. IF I make an appointment to see my doctor a couple of months ahead of time, I will get to see the actual doctor. If I happen to get sick and need to see the doctor TODAY, the response I will usually get is "We can get you in to see the nurse practitioner sometime today or tomorrow." That's not an isolated case. That's with what the Bush administration would call "gold-plated coverage" that I pay an arm and a leg for. It's also not isolated to this doctor. I have had several doctors over the years (thanks to the wonders of different insurance companies and "in-network" providers being the only thing covered....so much for the myth of freedom of choice.) and if it isn't "we can squeeze you in three days from now", it's "sorry, the doctor is all booked up, if this is an emergency go to the hospital or if you need someone sooner, go to the urgent care clinic".
We have 1/5 of our population that doesn't have any health care at all which drives up the costs for all of us when they end up in the hospital or ER.
We rank 37th in health care performance, behind even Columbia, Chile, and Saudi Arabia.
Our competitiveness as a country is affected because we are the only first world industrialized country that puts the burden for health care on employers.
We have an enormous number of people who end up in bankruptcy due to medical bills.
We have a significant percentage of population that has to choose between food and medicine.
Doctors require a staff of accountants and medical billers to sort through the thousands of insurance plans.
Insurance companies are level of bureaucracy that profits off the health care system to enrich shareholders. You often hear the claim that universal health care would create some huge bloated bureaucracy, but what could possibly be more bloated than 4000 different health insurance plans each with it's own payment schedule, each with it's own paperwork, each with it's own list of what it will cover and what it won't, each with it's list of which doctors, which labs, which hospitals are in network or out of network, skimming an enormous amount of money off our health care dollar while paying their CEOs enormous sums of money profiting of the sick like a ghoul? And it's a fact that the average insurance company takes 15 to 20 percent of your health care dollar in administrative costs compared to the "overly bloated" Medicare that takes on 2% of your health care dollar for administrative costs.
The end result is there is no real solution that involves using the for-profit insurance companies as part of our solution. They are not there to make people healthier or provide you with great health care. They are there to make a profit acting a your gatekeeper to health care and their only real purpose is to skim as much money as possible out of your health care dollar and put it into the pockets of their shareholders.
The current system in the US stifles innovation and the entrepreneurial spirit in America because too many Americans cannot afford to leave their current jobs that have health benefits. The notion of leaving work and starting your own business is something of a pipe dream to anyone who has any kind of health care needs in their family. Got a kid with diabetes? Are you going to quit a job you despise that has health insurance to start a business doing something you love without health insurance knowing you will not be able to afford one trip to the hospital if your kid misses his insulin? And if you try to buy health insurance in that situation, good luck getting it without taking out a second mortgage on your house. You are relegated to the "high risk pool" if they will sell you a policy at all.
When people in America lose their job due to no fault of their own, if they have any kind of condition that requires routine medical coverage (diabetes, asthma, hypertension, etc), we put people's lives at risk because they have to go without coverage. I've been there. Most of us have at one time or another. When my job was outsourced to India by Microsoft, so Bill Gates could put another billion into his bank account, the only thought I had was "Oh my god! I am so screwed and will probably die because I can't afford my medication." NOBODY should have to face that in the richest country on the planet. And COBRA? That's almost as big a joke as that idiocy called "Health Savings Accounts". COBRA is great for people who have lots of money. For people who were just making enough to put something away into a 401k and a small savings account, the going rates for COBRA would put you into the poor house fast.
Then we get the "free market solutions" like the HSA's. These are idiotic. They are basically a thinly disguised tax-shelter for some and damned near useless for the majority of people. The notion that people who are already struggling to put food on the table and pay the electric bill have all this excess income to stash away in a tax-free account for emergencies, would be laughable if it wasn't such a disgustingly arrogant and elitist slap in the face to the people who really need help getting health care.
The bottom line for me is that while neither system is without flaws, universal health care would be a much better bargain for everyone who relies on insurance to cover medical care than the current system. - TommySalami, on 10/11/2007, -3/+19Of course instead of realizing what was wrong and spending money on fixing it, they do this
- Ouzin, on 10/11/2007, -5/+20Just give money incentives to doctors who's patients are healthier. Gives them the same reason to excel as a "free" market does.
- inactive, on 10/11/2007, -1/+15The existing healthcare and their sponsored politicians are going to fight tooth and nail to keep things the way they are. There is enormous amount of profit in keeping the substandard system we have. It's just a shame that political leanings should spill over into making an irrational decision about supporting the worst of two choices because admitting the government does something better than private industry is something you can't stomach.
It's pretty dumb really, the evidence that a socialized health care system is better is overwhelming. - sirhotspur, on 10/11/2007, -2/+16you are a sad little person.
- GT35R, on 10/11/2007, -3/+16What a dumb flat out lie by those mother *****. I had to wait 12-days to see a doctor with my HMO and our private health care system.
- LordByr0n, on 10/11/2007, -0/+13Whats your problem dude?
- jazzjeff, on 10/11/2007, -1/+14Aaa... an educated response. NOT!!!
Go back to school and get wiser. We are talking about basic human rights.
Remember that when your insurance don't cover your bills and you have to pay through the nose.
I wish you a healthy life. Peace to you. - NikoKun, on 10/11/2007, -0/+13So would many poor or even lower end Americans... Plus I think many more well off Americans can easily sacrifice a little wait time so that they aren't kicking the poor out of the way... These Campaigns act like people will die in a wait line, and that's just not true, The wait line is setup so that, less threatening things like "choice surgeries" wait a little, and life threatening things get care right away. If you need care, you WILL get it... which is better than not getting any care at all, because it doesn't profit the insurance companies...
- gernblansted, on 10/11/2007, -4/+17Not all of them are. The conservatives in office have the best health care politics can buy - and all politicians have this universal health care.
The other ones, more than not, drive around in rust buckets, without health insurance and with significant dept, but with Bush/Cheney stickers on their cars. - johnhummel, on 10/11/2007, -0/+13Sure, and then let you go bankrupt because they did - or, tell you that they can't do anything because you're not at an "official" hospital.
Get treated, and spend the rest of your life in debt in the US and lose your stuff - or get treated, and go back to work in Canada. Hm. Hard choice. - NikoKun, on 10/11/2007, -11/+23And they're using OUR tax money to do this, probably... -_-
Then again, it wouldn't the first time the government uses OUR money to fight against something WE want... -_- - Gaki, on 10/11/2007, -3/+15What truly astounds me is how bitter and deep-rooted the antipathy towards Socialism is in the US. You would think people were proposing that we eat our children or something from the anger that shows up. It is completely illogical.
Canada has equivalent care for less than 1/2 the per capita cost of the US system. That evil socialized medicine is, ahem ... a better value for the dollar. What is so hard to understand about that? - jazzjeff, on 10/11/2007, -1/+13Just goes to show how educated you are on the facts behind the actual film - Not a lot!
- inactive, on 10/11/2007, -0/+12he got surgery and now he is in debt and angry at canada
- jazzjeff, on 10/11/2007, -0/+12And you are rightly entitled to get them too by gawd. There's no point in having all that though, if your too sick to drive on them or attend them!
Peoples health should be a basic primary concern of any government. Not profit margins as a primary reason to operate. - NikoKun, on 10/11/2007, -1/+12How is that any different from how things are right now? Plenty of people right now could have things that aren't that serious today, but after the tests could be more serious... >_>
Wait times are based on necessity... Elective surgeries wait... health and life threatening go sooner... if they detect something more serious you'll get bumped up to the front of the line.
Better to get care, than not get care at all. - doggo, on 10/11/2007, -0/+11I'm lucky enough to work in an organization that offers several healthcare options. I chose HMO Illinois. I have pretty good coverage, and they take good care of me when I can get to a doctor. Therein lies the rub. I call my primary physician, I can't get an appointment for 6 weeks (unless it's urgent, I suppose). Of course my primary physician can't really do anything for me, so she refers me to a specialist, who I can't see any sooner than 4 weeks (unless it's urgent). But that specialist (he's a surgeon) can't see until I see another specialist for a diagnosis (he's a general specialist [?!]). But my primary's concerned about my condition, so she intervenes on my behalf and gets me an appointment with a different general specialist only 3 weeks from now.
So I've spent over 2 hours on the phone over 2 days to set up 1 of 2 appointments that I need to make, but I need to wait 3 weeks before I can see the doctor who will determine whether I really need that second appointment with the special specialist, and I know that will involve another round of phone calls and weeks of waiting. Between my employer and myself we spend thousands of dollars (almost $3600.00) a year for health insurance.
So, how am I NOT waiting in line for health care?
Oh wait. That's right. You don't have to wait in line for health care if you can afford to pay cash or for a really deluxe insurance plan. I wonder what the White House insurance plan is. - biotch, on 10/11/2007, -0/+11Lets talk about wait times...
In America...
I have insurance.
I had Iritis from a chemical getting in my eye and I waited about 6 hours in serious pain from the time I showed up to the hospital to the time I received my medication.
When they determined I needed physical therapy for my back, the wait was 9 months!!
This wait time scare tactic is a bunch of BS. - Rekutyn, on 10/11/2007, -0/+10They have an obligation to stabilize you, that's it.
- supernovasky, on 10/11/2007, -0/+10I had to go my entire life with sub par healthcare because my family could not even come close to affording surgeries that would have probably dramatically changed my life for the better today. I suffer from my lack of good health care back then, and will suffer for it for the rest of my life.
- Renton, on 10/11/2007, -0/+9I don't know about you, but I live in a big city and the wait time in the emergency room is about 5 hours. Maybe a few minutes if you're in immediate danger of dieing. In Sicko, he asked the people in the ER how long they had to wait and they said something along the lines of 30-45 minutes.
5 hours in America compared to 45 minutes elsewhere. You know this ad is just *****. - Szandor, on 10/11/2007, -0/+9You forgot your /sarcasm tag.
- kinerry, on 10/11/2007, -0/+8non-sequitur
no insurance at all means you don't even get a shot - eblondee, on 10/11/2007, -0/+8All the outrageous aspects of them creating this advertisement aside... That's a pretty lame marketing scheme, relating line-ups to see movies to line-ups to see doctors... They must've known the movie was coming out, you'd think they would have put a little more thought into brainwashing us.
- MJG2007, on 10/11/2007, -0/+8Insurance companies are the problem, not the solution to our health care system.
The insurance companies have a single goal in mind: How to get as much money from your health care with returning as little as possible in return. - Gaki, on 10/11/2007, -1/+9Uh, except that most Americans DO want UHC. The last poll I read pegged it at over 70% and was the number one concern for most Americans with regards to politics.
- Coded1, on 10/11/2007, -0/+7True thank you. One thing Americans don't seem to realize is that since the money is coming out of your pockets your don't get a volume discount, but if you pooled your money then you would. Also you would have a much better barganing chip as far as pharmacuticals are conserned. I know this amounts to car pooling being socialist, thats why we should look into jailing anyone who does not have their own car, that makes sence to me anyway.
- NikoKun, on 10/11/2007, -2/+9Michael Moore interview today!
http://www.crooksandliars.com/2007/07/21/breaking-michael-moore-will-live-chat-on-cl-sunday-4-5pm-et/ - siszam, on 10/11/2007, -1/+8I know many people you would classify as conservative (I'm conservative in many ways) and all of them are compassionate people who believe in universal care. Don't think all conservatives are like the evil, selfish people who worship Bush and corporatism.
- jazzjeff, on 10/11/2007, -0/+7Well I am more free here in Ireland with it, than the USA at the mo that is all tied up in draconian, profiteering and privacy invading laws.
And you say we are the slaves... please, don't make us in Europe laugh more!
Looking at the state of America, I and many others across Europe have never felt more free. - Szandor, on 10/11/2007, -1/+8Congratulations on being the first block of the day.
- jazzjeff, on 10/11/2007, -0/+7If the core facts can't be disputed by those in power and medical authority, only fudged a bit, it goes to show how much studying on the subject you have done on this issue.
The core facts were very true.
What innuendo except hinting that many politicians including the Clintons, sold out.
...and go learn the real facts, not the whitewash you have been willing to have been spoon feed with.
...and by the way, I am a republician as is the rest of my country. The Republic of Ireland, ever heard of it??? Doh! - Gaki, on 10/10/2007, -0/+7@ SomaSynth
Doesn't have comparable care? Give me a break. Every measureable health statistic there is shows Canadians are healthier than US citizens. We have lower incidence rates for virtually every disease known and BETTER rated patient outcome. Sure, there are some fantastic private clinics in the States, but that isn't the average level of care that a US citizen receives, is it? Besides, there are top notch facilities here in Canada that are actually setting the standard with certain types of treatment. In the hospital where my sister works, a certain heart surgeon has a steady flow of doctors from around the world coming in to assist and learn his techniques, including from the States. Her ward is one of the best pediatric wards in the entire world.
As for the "advanced techniques" ... did you ever stop to think that with Canada's limited population that they won't see very many incidents of certain diseases and ailments that are particularly rare? The US will have specialists who deal with x disease where they just isn't enough patients in all of Canada to justify a specialty in it here in Canada. Most rare disorders, even so, are handled in house, usually by transferring the patient to a larger care center like Toronto or Montreal where they have doctors who have some experience in the treatment.
As for the cross border shopping ... sure it happens. The rich here go where they need to to get the best possible care, just like the rich do everywhere else in the world. As for your contention that it is common - *****. I work in a supplementary health insurer and I can tell you on one hand how many US-based claims I see in a year compared to the MILLIONS I see from within Canada. On the other hand, I can tell you hundreds of horror stories from people who got injured on a shopping or golf trip into the States and who are ruined financially because of the cost of something as simple as a broken leg.
As for the doctors running south ... a study I read showed that most of them came back after a couple of years in the States due to the cultural differences, crime rates, etc. between the countries. Some still stay, but it isn't the "flood" that the Frazier Institute would have you think it is. - tjasond, on 10/11/2007, -1/+7For those that didn't read to the end of the article, C&L is having a live chat with Moore in 30 minutes:
http://www.crooksandliars.com/2007/07/21/breaking-michael-moore-will-live-chat-on-cl-sunday-4-5pm-et/ - paradexes, on 10/11/2007, -0/+6Lol "Staged a press conference" That is an appropriate phrase these days. Lots of political theater using the press.
- NikoKun, on 10/11/2007, -3/+9Here's the thing, they want us to trust the government more, and give them more control... But when it comes to health care they can't claim enough that the government is bad at running it... -_-
Then they go around making baseless claims about waiting periods that are just not true. Mainly because we don't have waiting lines now, we wont have them with UHC either. Other countries with UHC systems, have waiting times, but the waits are only for non-life threatening surgeries... If you need care you will get care. It's not like everyone waits no matter what. If you need a life saving surgery right away to save you, you WILL get it.
Plus, how is it right, in American for us to force 50 million people out of the way, just so the rich can have faster health service?
I say, we should stop being greedy, 'gotta have it now' bastards, and let everyone have health care. The government can run it just fine. And at least it would better than what we have right now... How can they say nothing is wrong and not want to change it... -_-
Don't just take Canada's system, or Britain's system, or France's system... Take the good parts of those and combined it to make it work for us. Besides, those systems CLEARLY haven't failed in any country. - dodus, on 10/11/2007, -2/+8It's a nice speech but in no way, shape, or form, are poor people getting better medicine than the richest people 20 years ago.
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