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- buddha1822, on 10/12/2007, -0/+12Well, if these guys got the right determination when going into it, sometimes a first project can come out great. Webpages are a vastly different medium. Just look at Donnie Darko, for example, that was Richard Kelly's first movie!
- iloveroundtable, on 10/12/2007, -1/+8www.liberatedfilms.com
www.atomfilms.com
www.undergroundfilm.org
www.dovetail.tv
www.pawky.com
Great resources/outlets for first time filmmakers. - philski, on 10/12/2007, -0/+5Kevin smith, Clerks. Need I say more?
- Scoresheet, on 10/12/2007, -1/+5The market now is saturated to such an extent that its incredibly difficult to be noticed.
In my country, Its virtually impossible, as there is no independent film market, and there really isn't any kind of secondary market. There are a couple of Sky channels that show "real" independent films, but they only show short student films, and as a result seem to have a loop of lame reservoir dogs/evil dead rip offs, or else introspective non-dramas focusing on suicide, rape or "issues, and stuff".
I was the Editor on a feature film which won a Royal Television Society award, but no one was interested in distributing it because there were no "name" actors. it becomes a vicious circle where you can't attract name actors to v.low budget productions, but you can't distribute low budget films without some kind of audience recognition. That's why you often see a lot of D-list celebs and actors from the 70s and 80s in film stores bargain bins, because that's the only people who consider these kind of projects, on the whole.
Having said that, we actually had to turn down Sean Bean (yes, that Sean Bean) because the role he was going to take wouldn't have worked if the rest of the cast weren't famous too. - ringo380, on 10/12/2007, -0/+4Boondock Saints was also Troy Duffy's first movie. Too bad it didn't make ***** at the box office because of the Columbine incident. In fact, I don't think it was ever released in the theaters as a direct result of that. It's definitely created an underground following since, though. Not to mention an upcoming sequel (although I haven't heard any updates on that in years).
- inactive, on 10/12/2007, -1/+5Of course it's easy to write a script. The difficult part is writing a script that isn't a pile of *****. Try it yourself someday. If you can't even write a five-word comment that's any good, what chance have you got scripting a two-hour movie?
- larrychimpman, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3While it's tough to jump straight into Hollywood I think it's easier these days with the amount of festivals and internet popularity. It really is all about audience. If you can cater to a large enough demographic with your first film then you have a chance at success. It's also helps if you have a gimmick or something innovative.
- Chicken2nite, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3Dude, El Mariachi all the way. 7,000 dollar budget beats 30,000 dollars for clerks any day. Of course with Clerks, Kevin Smith was really going out on a limb considering he had no way of paying off his now accumulated credit card debt if Miramax hadn't come and bought him out. So much for an independent filmmaking career...
Oh, and Boyz in The Hood kicks the crap out of Donnie Darko. That was John SIngleton's thesis film that was given a huge budget because of the strength of the script. And for the record, neither were done outside off the studio system. - kraemer007, on 10/12/2007, -1/+3But its an iterative process, and most people will learn by doing. Making more films can lead to making better films. Uwe Boll is clearly not a good example though... :)
- RRamkissoon, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2This reminds me a lot of when I was first starting out with animation too... I was pretty naive about the business side of things and my only thought was to spread my own brand of creativity. I had a rude awakening when my first customers wanted some "minor changes" that ended up turning the project into something I didn't even recognize as my work. As someone just starting off, if I wanted to make my living in this way, I could not do so and still be true to "my art". It was discouraging. With success and fame can come more flexibility in terms of being paid more for what you want to do though. Still, I do agree that for starting off - having a sound idea of what market you are playing to will help you avoid some of the pitfalls and heartache you could otherwise face.
Nice article David!
Robin. - kraemer007, on 10/12/2007, -2/+4Baloney. Film makers should make whatever they want and put it out on the internet if they want people to see it. How dare the suits dictate what people should see? By that logic, we should all listen to Britney Spears clones on the radio- oh wait, we already do!!!!
- freya07, on 10/12/2007, -1/+3So many artist are so caught up in their own art and they forget that there is a world out there that runs mostly on money. And if you want to be noticed you need to have a plan in mind. I think starting with the Stargate Fan base in mind was a very smart idea. Congratulations for the success of this movie. Looking forward to more projects.
- monergism, on 10/12/2007, -2/+4As someone who has directed, edited and promoted. The reality is you need an audience.
Most people don't want to see your horror/slasher film. - sueKay, on 10/12/2007, -1/+3Baloney you say?
By focusing on producing a good product with the audience in mind, you can produce a successful movie (if you're talented enough to do so) and then that should give you that bit of extra cash in order to make the film you really want to make that much better, and if your first film's good enough, there'll be more people around to watch your second one.
One tactical decision saves a lot of hastle and heartache in the long run. You make the film you want without thinking it through and your film-making dreams could become just that - dreams.
The world of movie making is cruel, and not enough people support independent movie makers. - uppedbyhiggins, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2"Certainly not a way to make a living."
I'd take it any day over a well-paying, secure, 9-5 job. - ChillHomie, on 10/12/2007, -1/+3YouTube
- MiNGLED, on 10/12/2007, -1/+2Fine if they want to finance the whole film themselves. However if it's other people's money, perhaps there should be some sort of commercial aspect to the project.
- rosiewook, on 10/12/2007, -1/+2I think there is a lot of reliance in the film world on the concept of some magical allignment of the planets that will create a blockbuster film out of a tiny production. I think this might actually be due to Star Wars, of all things. But if you look back, George Lucas figured out his market (which, at the time, was sci-fi geeks) and went out to the cons. That's what started that ball rolling. You need to think it through, unless your plan is to make films for you and your friends.
- mangst, on 10/12/2007, -2/+3This is good advice and not just for film makers. I am currently switching careers and taking the time to figure out what my market wants or needs only makes sense. By doing this I will make sure that the time and money I put into additional training and the expense of opening a business is not in vain. You've given me something to think on.
- Viralcraig, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1It is always hard to get your art out there. Music, film, a novel, whatever it is. You have to work hard to get your product out there. If it was easy everyone would do it.
- Hellz99, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1I wouldn't say that there's no market. We shot our last on HD (which was a huge decision since we were all really anti-video for the longest time and huge fans of film) and with all the new smaller HD channels breaking out looking for material I think this may be something that filmmakers look at as an option.
But yes on a whole I agree, most filmmakers are worried about expressing themselves through their art form and trying to get the perfect shot. Figuring out how to get it to people is the furthest thing from their minds. - carboyfilms, on 08/27/2008, -0/+1Filmmakers should definitely think like business men, at least some of the time. You are your own business. But good movies generally do well in the long run. That might mean money or it might mean a career. If you make a movie based on or for a certain market, you will not make a very good one, so it won't do well. You market your film so that the most amount of people will see it. If you make it for a market, it won't be worth seeing. If you have a story worth telling, people will want to see it.
Kevin
http://www.carboyfilms.com - Sweeneybird, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1I like your viewpoint on making films - if it's a hobby, super, do what you like, but if you want any kind of commercial success you have to plan and present yourself in the best light. That's as true of art as it is of tag sales and software. Interesting article.
- Chicken2nite, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1The Thing is at the time Sci Fi geeks wasn't all that big of a market. The largest grossing science fiction film up until that time had been Planet of the Apes, and Star Wars didn't have a big American star like Charlton Heston. Apes only made like 10 million, which was the budget for the original Star Wars, so the fact that it was such a success was unpredicted. It was the first film to truly tap the Sci Fi market and expose almost everyone as a Sci Fi geek.
Plus, it washis third film, not his first. THX-1138 was his first one, originally a short then made into a feature that wasn't really much of a hit, not that it cost much to make though. - nevesis, on 10/12/2007, -1/+2Since the festival began today.....
South by Southwest (SXSW) is probably the best place for an independent film maker to start. From their website:
"Austin, Texas, home of a large diverse community of filmmakers, annually hosts one of the most important gatherings of independent, regional and industry film people in the country. Every March at the Austin Convention Center all of these talents come together at the SXSW Film Conference and Festival. The New York Times has said, "SXSW is a magnet for indie filmmakers... it crackles with excitement." MovieMaker has said, "SXSW is an invigorating experience. From the quality of the films and panels to the equally important enthusiasm of the participants, SXSW is a great festival at which to celebrate all things indie."
The conference portion of SXSW Film has been described as a five day crash course on guerrilla filmmaking and marketing for every level of filmmaker from novice to veteran. Panels, workshops and interviews are always peopled with knowledgeable experts and entertaining speakers offering unique access to the best and the brightest of the industry.
Representatives from major and independent distribution houses scout films and talent. Writers conduct interviews and madly watch films. Filmmakers check out films from around the world that are rarely seen in America. Actors, directors, agents, distributors and screenwriters get together and talk. People seeking new business, fascinated with new films and exploring new technologies find what they need at the trade show and panels."
(see http://2007.sxsw.com/film/) - RansomDenton, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1I agree with the article in part and with the above reply in part. I teach in this field and I try my best to explain to students that there are two worlds, the money side and the pure art side. I do not believe that if Van Gogh would have made money right out the door that his work would have been fueled by the intense pain that it was while he struggled. A xerox degrades after many copies, doing what someone wants you to do for money is, well, an old profession. But indeed if one wants to "make it" there is only one path and that is to get a target audience fixed in your sights and go for them! I just choose to not care one wit about my audience and make art for me and the subjects of my work whether it be painting, drawing, film or animation and hope that whats true for me will be true for some others. The most important thing I would say to any up and comer is WORK, do something, anything you cannot learn anything about anything till you do something in it.
- Chicken2nite, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1Which is I would think how it should be. If you focus on the audience of one, that being yourself, and be true to what it is you want to make, then the end product will be better off. However, if you have horrible taste, at least it will be your unique vision I suppose ;)
- SillyRabbits, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1Well, I assume part of the reason their isn't much of a market is because so much of it is crap. Every upstart filmmaker seems to think that they really know what makes a good movie, yet their work is just as bad as all the Hollywood garbage (heck, usually much worse). It's like going to a highschool art show - some artists are better than others, but only rarely do you find any real talent. Most people aren't going to waste valuable free-time watching all the crap just to find the occasional hidden gem. Even if all the movies were free, I wouldn't bother with them.
- monergism, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1Yes. You learn by doing and unless you are one of the few brilliant filmmakers, your early stuff is going to suck.
Ever see Speilberg's early home movies? The dude was a genius. Me? My early stuff is crap. My current stuff is almost watchable. - MysticSavage, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0@cartoonal
Didn't Duffy also piss of the Weinsteins and pass him off as someone with and ego the size of Texas? I heard there was a documentary made about the making of Boondock Saints and paints Troy Duffy as an insufferable douchebag. - icarusancalion, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0Yes. There's a big difference between pandering to a market, and beginning with some idea of who's going to see it.
It's not very different from buying a Christmas gift. You keep in mind the recipient, but you don't give them something you hate either. - DforSpiD, on 10/12/2007, -1/+1I'd like to believe that a film maker shouldn't need to worry about having to sell the film if they have made a piece of art... But I'm not that naive... Unfortunately the entire world seems to be to greedy for its own good... but oh well...
It really can be disheartening to see your art go unapreciated, if you believe it is something beautiful and worth apreciation. But everyone has to start somewhere I guess...
Still, on the other hand changing films for the advertisers can feel worse, athough at the end of the day if you're going to feel bad either way, you might as well get paid - rowlodge, on 10/12/2007, -1/+1lot of stuff that is in theatres already suck, so how do they make it? just a gamble and pure luck mostly, no science involved here. like publishers house says, "you may have already won!"
- Hellz99, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0While I won't completely agree with you, I will say that there are tons of bandwagon jumpers and people looking for trends. Most of this is probably unintentional and done by greener filmmakers out of film school.
I remember when Swingers came out back when, and all of a sudden everyone was trying to write the next Swingers. When Blair Witch was a hit on the festival circuit, all of a sudden there were a million people running around with a DV cam trying to pull it off again. And I could name 5-6 other films that had a ripple effect the same as these.
I guess this is why I'm a big fan of docs and at festivals I'll line up to watch em. - grrluknow, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0My husband's self-employed and had to learn how to market himself similarly. It really paid off for us. I've never considered that an independent filmmaker might benefit from the same marketing tactics, but that makes a lot of sense. I'd think a creative producer who also possesses a good head for business is destined for success.
- NightSpring, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0~It's not very different from buying a Christmas gift.~
That's a great way of putting it! - starleet, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0I, too, am currently considering a career change that happens to be script writing. It's hard because I am the #1 income and raising 2 children I had to put my writing on the back burner due to responsibilities. I had "ins" with people in the business that hounded me to make the change when the kids were small, but I knew I had to wait. The last kid is going into 12th grade next year and now I am back in the loop almost. I think David's marketing was absolutely intelligently thought out. I know people who were not Stargate fans that enjoyed the film even without recognizing the nods to the fans in it. And the pet people who are not sci fi fans also love it. Hitting at least 2 core audiences was key and is I think. Trying to appeal to one type of audience or not even knowing what that core audience is when it comes to marketing has got to be why so many films never get recognition at all.
- pavaneofstars, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0Great article and sound advice for film makers and non-film makers alike. If you want to sell something, know who your target audience should be and go for it.
- SlowDownandFast, on 08/18/2008, -0/+0It all starts with know your audience. I believe that in the current world of indie filmmaking, there is a way to find that audience and make money doing it.
We are in the wild west stage when it comes to independent film distribution. I'm actually writing a blog documenting our journey at slowdownandfast.blogspot.com
I think that the more people talk about this and share their experiences, the more we all can carve out a piece of this pie. We don't need a big piece, just one large enough to support our addiction and our art form.
Adam
www.blindlylefilms.com/slowdown - purpledragon, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0This is really good advice. I'm not a film-maker or anything like that (way too technical for me *g*), but this strikes me as useful for just about anyone that's trying to "make it" in a business, whether it's film-making, book writing or starting up your own company, even if (after reading it all the way through) it smacks you in the face as being common sensem it's what you should be doing anyway and you hear of so many companies starting out with a promising idea but going nowhere, and why? Because they didn't do their background research or "homework" properly I guess.
Thanks for taking the time to write this out and reminding us of what should be blindingly obvious, but sometimes is the most hidden and murky part of business planning.
purpledragon - walnutcrunch, on 10/12/2007, -1/+0You know, if you take money from people and convince crew to work on your film for free, low wage, or promise of revenue once your "awesome film takes off", you'd better have a plan for making money or you're an ass just looking to create a director reel. It's not doing the "man's" bidding, it's being responsible and respectful of the effort and money of others.
In reality, only the director wins on these independents. Other peoples money and other peoples time and only the director and maybe the DP have a chance of the credit being worth anything to them. Everyone else is a sucker.
Everyone points to all these new small channels as being great for independent film, well they certainly aren't paying 100 000 bucks for first window. They're paying 500 bucks, 1000 bucks, 5000 bucks. Not much when you consider the time and human effort to make a movie. Certainly not a way to make a living. - OregonJen, on 10/12/2007, -2/+1A well-written article, David, and a wise approach to film making. It certainly seems to make much more sense to determine if there is a market for your business (movie) BEFORE you go to the time and expense of creating it. You had a ready-made market by taking advantage of the Stargate fanbase, which seems like a very shrewd move on your part in your efforts to promote your first film. Well done! I hope it continues to pay off for you in all ways possible. :-)
- Flamingmoth, on 10/12/2007, -1/+0Good piece.
- Hellz99, on 10/12/2007, -1/+0spell check is easier
- Anrkist, on 10/12/2007, -6/+3Want to see my first webpage? I didn't think so....
- inactive, on 10/12/2007, -5/+2@ringo380
As far as I remember, the film did get a limited release at the time (half a dozen theatres only), but got panned by the critics. Troy was the only person to ever say it was not released because of Columbine. I think he was just looking for an excuse to explain why his boringly derivative Tarrantino/Ritchie-copy film flopped. - chumpsucker, on 10/12/2007, -3/+0Just like its hard for diggers who aren't elite users to get their stories dugg...
Try giving your work away and see how popular you become; hint, this is because of the MPAA. - vpeppe, on 10/12/2007, -3/+0I WOULD LIKE TO LICENSE YOUR FILM for broadcast, cable, and satellite TV. And for download from GNFDigital.com
Making and independent film takes persistence. Often the producers that I work with have devoted over 5 years to getting their movie made and released. The key is: do you really believe in the story? Are you determined that the story be told, and told your way? If so, then stay with it, don't get discouraged (for long). Do one thing a day to move your project forward. Good luck to all. Vincent Peppe, www.gnfdigital.com - slapded, on 10/12/2007, -6/+0writing a script is eazy
- 12ekips, on 10/12/2007, -7/+0I might accidentally have dugg this more than once because I am, well, an idiot. I hope that doesn't mess you up. Anyway, yeah, I think a lot of people are afraid to be perceived as money oriented because they see it as being antithetical to being an artist, and it is. But, you know, if you want to do more with your art than just sit in your room with it, you need to get it out to people and that takes some planning. And it's not like one is actually likely make crass amounts of money as an artist -- if you're lucky, you'll get to support yourself and your art habit so you can keep on doing it.
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