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131 Comments
- error401, on 10/12/2007, -0/+6"They don't publicly talk about this," said Brad Hunt of the Motion Picture Association of America, "but it's a well-known fact that forensic watermarking is being used on theatrical release prints because that's how we can determine sources of piracy."
So what do they do when people complain about the hideous artifacts that appear throughout the movie. Also known as groups of brown dots pasted over the film in random spots for a few frames throughout the film. I don't know about anyone else, but I find these extremely irritating, almost as irritating as the 'PIRACY IS THEFT' video I have to watch after *buying* a DVD, and before viewing a film in a theatre, that I've *paid* to see.
I don't understand why they bother either. If the pirates care about protecting the cinema they filmed at, it's pretty damn trivial to blur/remove the frames with the watermarks. They have to be blatantly obvious for the watermark to make it through the heavy compression in a readable state.
Sigh. This won't 'help,' and I'm only going to hope that it's not more intrusive than the current system. - groverallnight, on 10/12/2007, -0/+5I would rent before I would pirate, but I would pirate before I would go to the bloody theatre.
- docmanhattan, on 10/12/2007, -0/+4"We're not trying to describe specifically what is being done, because the effectiveness of these technologies is based on a lack of knowledge."
When will people learn that security through obsurity does not work. Never. ever. ever. ever. ever.... - Zher0, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3I didn't know you could even download movies on the Internet until I saw the anti-piracy add before a movie a while back. Then I was all like, "damn, I can get this ***** for free?!" and I ran out of the theater, bought an eyepatch, and began to stick it to the man.
- ATLien, on 10/12/2007, -1/+4All I have to say is let them try! I don't think the MPAA and RIAA realize that they will never stop illeal file sharing.
- Vektuz, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2The end result of this is the destruction of all movie theaters. Its a natural progression, of each side getting more and more agressive and tricky, and the movie theater itself is caught in the middle.
So they figure out which theater it was recorded in, by some guy with a cam? They go after the theater . Theater gets sued, theater takes a big hit, theater gets more strict, employs guards with night vision, etc. Pirates get more clever, find a way around that, snap with cellphone / become friends with projector guy / etc.
They figure out again that its that same theater again, and the theater again is sued, takes a hit from lawsuit, beefs up security / whatever again. Pirates escalate it too, tapping in here, social engineering there, connect some black box to the projector that records it / etc. Theater gets caught and sued again, etc, etc etc.
Its an ESCALATION of conflict - and the ones who are going to lose are the actual theaters themselves. The movie industry will escalate themselves out of the movie theater business. - inactive, on 10/12/2007, -1/+3"HAHAHA that is inpressive. I prefer seeing movies in the theaters. The big screen is great."
I'd rather watch movies in the comfort of my own home on my 65" widescreen Hitachi than waste $22 to see it with someone, plus the cost of popcorn and soda and parking which I dont' have to pay for at home. Anyway, theater screens seem to have gotten a lot smaller in the last decade. - tohaan, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2As a projectionest here's a list of what I'm worried about on digital projectors.
4: Scratched disks
3: Visual/Audio sync
2: Image Bleeding
and the biggest
1: The Data Storage Security - King Kong is made up of NINE REELS of film. Comes in TWO BIG BOXES. If it was digital then the ability to steal is greater. Think of it, a postman comes in with Harry Potter 5 on a disk. Even a kid could nab that with little effort.
"does the projector imprint the watermark?
so um, just copy the file before it gets to the projector."
neverender (0)
Dont think it could. Films stay in circulation for a VERY LONG TIME. An extreme example of this is an original ALIEN (70mm) I saw last month. Besides I do not think it will be that hard to by-pass such a thing on the projector.
"they're already doing this by putting reddish-brown dots over random frames in the movie."
timellis (0)
Those could be reel changes, esp if they arer about 20-25 minutes apart. When I have to preview films, checking for visual discrepances I've never seen anything apart from the reel changes. - neverender, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2does the projector imprint the watermark?
so um, just copy the file before it gets to the projector. - DCstewieG, on 10/12/2007, -1/+3"No matter how low-quality it may be, you can trace it back to the source," said Claypool.
I call *****. - SniperGX1, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2As long as the MPAA uses DRM anti consumer technology, over charge, and use scare tactics to terrorize innocent people pirated movies will rise untill the MPAA is rightfully destroied.
- SweetsGreen, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1BS...
When you build a better mousetrap the mice just get smarter! - YellowJKT, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1who cares what the theatres try to do when you have all these dvd screeners coming out?
i'd like to thank the academy........... - TuxFan, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1"All we have to do is get everyone (sic) to agree and disarm - then society will be a so much better place. "
Nope, we have to agree not to shoot each other over stupid reasons like sneakers.
As for MPAA, they suck. Just release DVDs at the sametime as the theater release. Make it easier for people to see films. - BitSlash, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1and what about the webcams and junk? One of my former friends used to stream the movie from a well placed webcam to laptop hidden somewhere.
- mgrasso, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1This is disappointing. I like pirate movies.
- mark_1581, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1If it can be seen, listened to, or played...Someone will always find a way to copy and distribute it. Period.
- HardwareWeenie, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1I am not sure if the brown dots near the upper right have to do with encryption, rather it's a visual signal to change to the next reel. When I was doing projection you would set the next reel on the 2nd projection and load the film in to a certain marked point. When I saw the first spot, I would start the 2nd projector rolling, when I saw the 2nd spot, I would flip the switch that opened the 2nd projector GATE and closed the 1st projector's GATE. This would also switch the sound from the first to second projector. This allows the reels to be cut at either very quiet scenes, or very loud scenes without a word getting cut in two by the switch over. We actually used a little tool to make these little marks in the film and would splice leaders on to the films to have the right amount of run time before the switch over. This allows the 2nd projector to get up to speed and be rolling before you ever see it. I have no idea if this is how it is still done (may be automated for instance)
- TheQwe, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1So they can track the date and time that the movie was shown. So, assuming they have some way of tracking who saw the movie at that time(which they don't, currently), what are they going to start doing? Raiding the homes of everyone who saw the movie at that time?
Also, with the crappy quality that you get by taking a camcorder into the theater, can the "digital watermark" stay intact? I'm doubtful. - TimEllis, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1As an above poster pointed out, they're already doing this by putting reddish-brown dots over random frames in the movie. The only new part about this is that they will also be able to narrow down which specific date and time the movie was recorded. Which doesn't really do them any good anyway unless they start recording names and ID information to purchase a movie ticket. And if they do start doing that, then I'll stop going to see movies in the theater all together.
- burke, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1I'd like to clarify for any lawyers in the audience that my last post was for effect, and I have no intention to download such a crappy movie, and don't recommend anyone else waste their time either.
- IraqManiac, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1Is the end of me ever watching new movies NEAR?
- Abx0r, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1Nothing can stop File Sharing. Unless they start tracking every single thing we do with cameras in our eyes and they watch us do everything. They get rid of computers, get rid of music, get rid of movies, get rid of games, and whatever else. It just is impossible to stop, period. There will always be someone smart enough to crack their crappy security and DRM *****. When will they learn? Ohh wait, they won't, they aren't smart enough.
- inactive, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1"Yikes... I am kinda on the other side. My G/F and I go see nearly every movie that comes out every weekend."
I hope she's paying her half and you're not feeling obligated to dish out every weekend to make sure you still get some action during the week. There are better things I could do with my money and a cute girl for $22 (tickets) + $15 (concessions) + $20 (cheap dinner) + $10 (parking) -- and none nearly as passive as watching a movie for a couple hours. Plus, like I said previously, theaters dont' have much to offer as far as a theater "experience" anymore either. Screens seem smaller. Theaters seem smaller. And they're charging more for less. No thanks. :/ - japanlover, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1four words...
not going to work - shiftless, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1It won't work at all. All this will mean is that piraters will have to record at different theatres if there is a crack down. Also, if one is caught, another will rise and does it matter when a million people have downloaded the same file on the Internet? Sounds like they're spending too much money on this.
- pynej, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1Interesting but it will not be hard to write a sorftware app to read through the movie file and remove or alter this encoded waltermark, thereyby protecting the original source. A futile attempt.
- ElectricGrandpa, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1"ill start paying for movies when film makers put out something thats not total CRAP
they should see us for what we are, consumers, if they charge us $10 for a movie (and then force us to watch commercials for a movie we already paid for) they need to deliver a product that is worthy of our time and hard earned money."
Please stop whining. There ARE a lot of good movies out there, in fact, I think more than half the movies out there in big theatres are pretty decent. Be all bitter and whiny if you want, but obviously you're in the MINORITY, as there are still millions of people going out to see movies...
"I'd rather watch movies in the comfort of my own home on my 65" widescreen Hitachi than waste $22 to see it with someone, plus the cost of popcorn and soda and parking which I dont' have to pay for at home. Anyway, theater screens seem to have gotten a lot smaller in the last decade."
... I don't know if you're smart enough to realize the fact that it'll take a hell of a lot of $22 movies to add up to the cost of your TV... way to waste your money :) - compu73rg33k, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1One word.
No.
You will never end pirating of anything. There is absolutely no way it will ever happen. Ever. - BrainiakZ, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1Yikes... I am kinda on the other side. My G/F and I go see nearly every movie that comes out every weekend. I have seen my share of bad movies. Do they give your money back for those? Whos being robbed? We are. I think that it balances things out. An Eye for an Eye.
On another note...
You can get nearly every movie online now.
All you need is an xbox with a mod chip, 250 gig hard drive, and XBMC, and you have a full media center at your finger tipes with 300+ movies without having to even get your DVD out of the box and put it in the player. - nesdude, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1Hm. The last four movies I've gone to see in a theater were either cheap or free, legally. One was for school (Good Night and Good Luck), that only cost a few bucks, another I had free passes (King Kong), and one was a rentout of the place for small fee between our group (Narnia). Oh, no, I did pay for one movie, that was Rent... and it was worth it. I don't see what people get out of piracy, really. If I want to see a movie that badly, I'll either A). Suck it up and pay the money, or B) Wait for the DVD and rent it. And concessions? Why eat or drink durning a movie? Eat at home before hand if it costs too much.
- poutine, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1My desire to watch the movie industry increasingly poor quality product in light of the many other entertainment possibilities is declining faster that their ability to prevent me from watching the movies.
It's quite the spectacle, watching an entire industry destroy itself. Fun, even -- if it were not for the threat to personal liberties. As it stands, I can only hope they're gone before freedom is irrevocably destroyed.
Let's hope. - Chimichanga, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1>The red/brown circles are most definitely reel changes
If you all had been paying attention during the "movie experience" of Fight Club, you would have known that. - monticello, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1Cost of going to movies is about $60 for me. Need to get babysitter, parking, pay for entrance, pay for popcorn. And there's no guarantee that the movie won't suck.
Once they solve *that* problem, then piracy will come to an end.
------------------
No it won't. People don't pirate out of principle, they pirate because it's free. I am so tired of hearing this. - tohaan, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0In reply to anonymoustroll (0)
Didn't see any comment on satellite distribution. Hell my company wont pay money for such a set-up. At the moment very few members of the chain will get a (as in 1) digital projector, see no logic in that. Unless the industry is financially supporting companies.
I'll check back tomorrow, only just recieved the list of whos getting what.
"...your days are numbered."
Yeah but I'm hoping not to be a projectionest in 30/40 years time.
Funny, I used to work with microfilm before it all went digital. Dumb luck - ATLien, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0I don't see the Pirate Bay going down because of something like this. In fact, I don't see it getting effected!
- sWeEtReVeNgE, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0Are you kidding me??? Pirates are going to learn how to crack this protection immediatly, there smart... Remeber how the Xbox 360 was cracked and modded the EXACT DAY it came out?
- johnkimble, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0maybe it'll *slow* the distribution of illegally released movie theatre screen captures but i don't know about once they get released for home video.. thats a whole other ball park.
- eXCeSS, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0in short, no
- inactive, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0>> "No matter how low-quality it may be, you can trace it back to the source," said Claypool.
>I call *****.
Oh, yeah? What about a water marking mechanism tied to time-and-date of every showing at a particular theater and a theater that requires that you pruchase your tickets with a credit card (or show scanable ID). How many times do you think you could tape and distribute before the Feds kicked your door in? I'm thinking of a number somewhere less than 10 and greater than 3. - wilf_brim, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0No, I don't see this doing much. It may affect some of the really bad "camera at screen" pirate movies, but not the DVD rips (or whatever future file format gets cracked shortly after release) that are currently available. Nope. Yo ho, yo ho, a pirate's life for me!
Avast ye scurvy corporate dogs! Ye will never take me alive! Man the portside raid arrays! Look sharp and fire as ye broadband connections bear! - fugitivALiEN, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0The red/brown circles are most definitely reel changes, they've used the same thing in theatres for years. Including Mystery Science Theatre... check out some of those old crappy movies and you'll notice them often. ;)
- tranix, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0Shrug, I don't download Non-DVD quality copies anyway. I always wait.
- theHM, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0on a purely theoretical note:
as some other diggers have noted, it would be presumably easier to conver the original video data. it would obviously contain some sort of watermarking (such as would be preserved even after re-encoding), but this could be analysed and removed by obtaining two copies of the file from different theatres. 2 other problems remain, however: 1) the file format must be reverse engineered so that it can be used (no trivial task); and 2) any drm within the file must be removed (even more difficult). the first can be achieved purely with the file (though it would be far easier if you had access to the projector) but the seconde would require the projector itself. each projector will most certainly be provided with it's own unique decryption key (in a similar manner to the way each computer/device is in latest version of protected wma files) to decrypt the data. if the mpaa (or whomever) is really smart, though, they'll require that each time a projector begins playing the movie, it obtain the second part of a split decryption key from an mpaa-held server (over ssl for obvious reasons) which both allows decryption *and* watermarks the video data with a unique signature for that movie showing. obviously this would allow the mpaa (or whomever) to track the pirated copy to the exact screening of the movie, but, more importantly, this would require a group of individuals with the connections and skillset to obtain more than one projector, reverse-engineer the soft/hardware within, obtain multiple copies of the second part of the decryption key, reverse engineer the key generation algorithm and only then can they produce unique decryption keys that cannot be traced to any particular theatre.
sure, it's possible. it's just unlikely.
at least for the next year or so. - gamerzworld, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0it isn't going to work. Even if they find a theater they still have to find out who did it. What are they supposed to do that? Even if you train the people to spot out cams someone can go to a different theater. ITS NEVER GOING TO WORK!
- inactive, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0here's a couple of hard facts for the MPAA to munch on:
- pirated movies have *NEVER* stopped me from going to a theater to see a movie
- anything that lowers the cost movies is a welcome change (yes, I expect digital distribution to lower the cost of movies!)
- anything that reduces the amount of time that passes from initial theater release to DVD release is a welcome change (surprise: there's an entire class of movie that I will *NEVER* go to a theater to see... no, not XXX movies... I'm talking about movies that I have deemed to be not worthy of my time and money... yes, you have to work to entertain me!)
So, all I have to say is: "bring it on" and "don't be surprised if ticket sales continue to decline after introducing digital distribution... try making better moview instead" - inactive, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0> If it was digital then the ability to steal is greater.
> Think of it, a postman comes in with Harry Potter 5 on a disk.
Did you even bother to read the article?
These distribution mechanisms are going to be accomplished via encrypted satellite broadcast directly to the movie theater that will receive the movie via registered equipment... Keys could be expired weekly or even daily and watermark generation can be tied to specific movie theaters and showing times.
The fact of the matter is that the weakest link in the chain of trust (revenue) will always be the individual human being. The sooner you remove those from the distribution process, the sooner revenue starts increasing (or at least that's the theory).
> As a projectiones...
...your days are numbered. - HottSauce, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0"Do you really need to see Legally Blonde 2 on the big screen? Or Waiting to Exhale? Hardly."
Chick flicks never need to be seen in a movie theater. - agarc, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0People will always find a way...
I really hate the movie theatre experience. I agree with many others - it has become progressively worse over the last decade. It's just not worth the money/time/frustration. The quality of moviegoers (people in general) has declined over the years too. More and more cell phones go off. Phone ringing is becoming tolerated it seems - they go off and fewer people react. Ridiculous. $3 for bottled water? $4 for soda? No thanks.
King Kong was great... I watched it in the comfort of my friend's house. Free, no people talking, no cell phones, no driving. Screw the MPAA. - baconbacon, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0Put the watermark of the competing theater in your town and distribute it.
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