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Best Buy dumps HD-DVD to the side to push Blu-Ray

avsforum.com — "Turns our that BB has clearly stated that they are to promote Blu Ray due to the high margins. They're also told to NOT play actual movies in the Toshiba and do not directly compare both players."

Who dugg this? Made popular Jun 25, 2006

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  • airencracken, on 10/12/2007, -3/+60I don't know, but as a college student, I don't really care because I can't buy either. :D
  • Yorn, on 10/12/2007, -15/+63Best Buy is still selling HD-DVD, they are just promoting and demoing BluRay more because of the higher margin. It doesn't matter anyway, format wars of the past have always been determined by open non-proprietary media. Sony and Blu-Ray will lose just like the Betamax lost, because the porn market will shy away from it. Take a look below at all the comments of people saying they won't be buying either because of the costs. It seems that the market is going to be determined by the wealthy. Who are they? White single men. What do white single men buy? Porn. They spend billions a year on it.

    I'm not just pulling this crap out of my ass either. Check out this essay written by a lawyer: http://www.law.indiana.edu/fclj/pubs/v49/no1/johnson.html

    It clearly indicates that porn drives technology. And why shouldn't it? The people willing to spend money are going to want the best economical alternative. Right now, that isn't BluRay. And these guys aren't necessarily going to be buying from the likes of Best Buy. They're going to shop online and find the porn industry is using HD-DVD.

    That's why Sony lost with Betamax, and that's why they'll lose again with BluRay. Ultimately the consumer wins. Now, if the federal government steps in and mandates BluRay, then we've just got the government ***** with an otherwise fine system. Anyway, I'll get off that soap box for now.
  • zweben, on 10/12/2007, -0/+43Rule of thumb: Only shop at Best Buy if you already know exactly what you need.

    Or... just don't shop at Best Buy. But i've had no problem shopping there as long as I follow that rule. Oh, and also assume everything the sales people say is a lie.
  • Klisk, on 10/12/2007, -9/+30Bluray will follow the trend of the UMD and become a format only used for PS3 games. I don't think HD-DVD will succeed either, I believe there's a better technology that will come out in the next 5 years that will take the cake. (Holographic discs?)
  • rastan, on 10/12/2007, -5/+26"Turns our that BB has clearly stated"

    Please mark as inaccurate. A random post on AVSForum from a random guy overhearing a conversation between the industry equivalent of a burger-flipper and a consultant and then speculating about it afterwards is not a clear statement or the same as a press release from Best Buy.

    Oh for the love of god. I know everyone hates the media companies but for the last time, stop posting stuff with no substance on digg. This should be posted as a question as best, but the summary makes it sound like the CEO himself came out and literally took a dump on an HD-DVD player as the "clear statement".

    A better summary would have been:

    Is Best Buy dumping HD-DVD to the side to push Blu-Ray?
    "A poster to AVSForums went to his local Best Buy and was disappointed by the Blu-Ray quality. When he asked if he could see an HD-DVD movie on an HDMI hookup, he was responded to with a curt and succinct 'we're not allowed'. Could higher margins on Blu-Ray be driving this decision?"

    Come on people. Digg the *real* stories and not the FUD. Make sure you hate them for a *reason* with *justifiable fact*.
  • Wawert, on 10/12/2007, -6/+26You mean 100 million PS3's. xD
  • archonon, on 10/12/2007, -6/+25...... most of the titles showed signs of pushing HD DVD's capacity limits. The Last Samurai topped out at 27.3GB, Mel Brooks's Blazing Saddles at 25.4GB, The Phantom of the Opera at 24.8GB, Jarhead at 24.7GB, The Bourne Identity at 22.7GB, Serenity at 19.6GB, The Fugitive at 18.2GB, and Doom at 16.5GB.
  • drn666, on 10/12/2007, -2/+21@Bytor:

    That's not true.

    Yes, both HD-DVD and Blu-ray use AACS, but Blu-Ray also includes an additional layer of copy protection at the disc level, rather than the content level. Only a single studio is supporting HD-DVD only, that that's pretty much reason. Studios love copy protection.

    As for everyone whining about the content protection - sell your DVD's. Cracked or not, CSS is copy protection, as is Macrovision. Just because it's been broken doesn't make them less DRM laden.
  • LycoLoco, on 10/12/2007, -11/+29Obviously someone believes Sony's "1 million PS3s" propaganda.
  • nogami, on 10/12/2007, -2/+20I find it amusing that people are arguing over these two formats... I wouldn't touch EITHER of them right now.

    Give me a player that handles both formats, or I'll keep my money.

    N.
  • MikeCampo, on 10/12/2007, -5/+20Amen to that...Maybe in 3 years.
  • Dhalgren, on 10/12/2007, -1/+15"HD-DVD has nothing over Blu-Ray."

    There's always the fact that it's not made by Sony... I'm sorry, but Sony is getting scarier and scarier ever since they pulled that DRM rootkit crap. I really don't want a company like that controlling the majority of entertainment delivery.
  • rastan, on 10/12/2007, -0/+14You, sir, have obviously not had to talk to an Indian tech-support rep :)
  • harlowsmonkeys, on 10/12/2007, -1/+13"Except the fact that the PS3 cost $500, and that can be used as a Blu-Ray player... So your claim of Blu-Ray players being $1000 is a lie"

    Could you be so kind as to tell us where to buy a PS3 today?
  • staticneuron, on 10/12/2007, -2/+14"That's why Sony lost with Beta-max, and that's why they'll lose again with BluRay. Ultimately the consumer wins. Now, if the federal government steps in and mandates BluRay, then we've just got the government ***** with an otherwise fine system. Anyway, I'll get off that soap box for now."


    Please do get off your soapbox. Beta max failed because Sony was to stubborn and never licensed out the technology so they can reap sole benefits. JVC made that move first, which enabled more companies to use VHS technology (thus spurned the video rental industry) and that's why beta-max lost.Their mistake happened well before The adult video industry came into play. Also the fears about the security of blu ray are unfounded because the deciding companies on the board now have an option to distribute using what ever security format deemed necessary. Right off the bat they are in trouble because they have more than one way of encrypting the discs and the sheer fact that none of the companies want to implement it until the media has a firm foothold in the market. You are sadly mistaken if you think that these same movie companies would not want to go with a similar content protection system on HD-DVD.

    And again it seems like the same mindless drivel permeates almost every tech related society. It is really cool to hate on Sony it seems. Your biggest flaw in this is comparing blu ray to beta-max (which has been done quite a few times over the net). Blu ray is not a proprietary Sony technology. Take a close look at who is behind blu ray and then it also seems like this is going to be a pretty rough fight.

    The introduction of new media into the market has never really been intended for instant consumer adoption. It just takes a considerable interest to prevent these companies from backing down with the format. The real issue is cost and in a short matter of time blu ray has proven to be cheaper to manufacture once the initial factory reconfiguration is done. Cheaper for the companies will most likely mean cheaper for you.

    Your reasons for the assumption of blu rays inevitable demise are shallow and near-sighted. There are more factors involved and I do not know anyone who can tell a clear winner in this format war.

    And drn666, Studios love money more than Copy protection. I am pretty sure most studios and companies are going with blu ray because they see it to be more profitable in the long run.
  • threepio, on 10/12/2007, -4/+16This is not the case in Canada - neither technology is being given priority. Instead the priority is being put on educating staff and customers about the features of both technologies and letting the customer decide.
  • rastan, on 10/12/2007, -0/+11I think that was the point of the joke elfuego, hence the ... for dramatic pause :)
  • Gryfft, on 10/12/2007, -1/+12There was a great article on Digg earlier that actually gave a lot of great reasons that neither new format will win. It's still just one movie, and not everyone has a huge HD screen... and you're getting that one movie a LOT cheaper.
  • elfuego, on 10/12/2007, -2/+13you are aware that BB and FS are the same company, right?
  • TheIncubator, on 10/12/2007, -4/+14And to point out the obvious, I'll go ahead and mention that since you can encode at an arbitrary bit-rate, it should not be surprising to find every disk full... If I were doing the encoding, I would figure out how much space was needed for menus and extras, how much was needed for sound, and then encode the film at a bitrate such that every last remaining byte on the disk gets used for the video. Once you've decided to press x disks with y layers, the cost is the same whether you use 60% or 100% of the available capacity. I would be disappointed to see any movie use less than 100% of available capacity no matter how much is available- at least until we're watching uncompressed masters at home.

    That said, my personal belief is that 30GB is not enough to do a feature length movie with all the extras at a sufficient bit-rate to make high-definition truly shine. But in practice, at least at the moment, Blu-Ray has utterly dropped the ball both with 50GB disks (which are *not* on the market yet due to manufacturing problems, the current crop of BDs are 25GB platters), and with the encoding (BD is using MPEG2 rather than an advanced codec, and 25GB disks using MPEG2 is simply not cutting it if reactions from early adopters are to be believed).
  • Bytor, on 10/12/2007, -10/+20Both HD-DVD and Blu Ray have exactly the same copy protection, so neither will win or lose on that front. In the end the only real difference is the physical disk themselves.

    I suspect both will lose, just like Super Audio CD and whatever it was competing with. Slightly better formats with extreme copy protection with a format war tend to do poorly.
  • Etheo, on 10/12/2007, -3/+13I hear you. And even in 2 years time, nothing on earth is going to convince me to get a Blu-Ray unless I find an unopened box in the flea market for under $20.
  • DoctorNo, on 10/12/2007, -2/+11The talk of Beta-Max in comparison with Blu-Ray is rubbish, expecially being the creators of the VHS format, ***** (company that controls JVC, Panasonic, etc), are one of the Blu-ray founders. While Sony does lead the Blu-ray effort, it isn't an exclusively a Sony format and has vast amounts of cooperation from more than 13 companies including *****, Pioneer, Samsung, Phillips, Thomsons, Warner Bros, Hitachi, Fox, Dell, Apple, etc..

    Also, one of the reason's behind the split between Blu-ray and the DVD consortium is that Blu-ray doesn't need to pay the DVD 6C patent pool which Toshiba is the main beneficiary of. This is the reason why you have the vast majority of support from manufacters on Blu-ray's camp, being that 6C liceencing takes a large chunk of money from every DVD and DVD player sold.
  • Moocat, on 10/12/2007, -1/+10@hater

    We realize the populace at large is dumb as a rock when it comes to new technology, but that doesn't mean you have to sell them ***** equipment and charge them 3x as much for it, then slap on an extra $100-$200 for "repair" which shouldn't have happened in the first place. This is pretty much the last place you'll garner any sympathy for Best Buy after the multiple fiascos that have been posted here; X-Box sold for more than it's worth, Geek Squad using unlicensed copies of diagnostic software, etc. etc.
  • Lynxpro, on 10/12/2007, -0/+8The BestBuy sales staff are non-commissioned, but BestBuy managers are not. Managers get bonuses which are afforded to them because the spiffs and other bonuses that other stores pass on to their sales staff are kept by the company and redistributed to management. So if X number of printer cables are sold in a month, the computer dept. manager gets a bonus made up of the money that should have been a spiff to the sales associates who actually sold them. Thus every time a manager steps into a sale to take over for the sales associate, they are in fact on commission. Then they try to make the sales staff feel like the managers are cool if they give a gift card or event tickets if a sales staffer made an impossible sale of 5 ink cartridges to a single customer when they purchase a printer or something else obscene and ridiculous. Working as non-management at BestBuy can make one a hardcore Marxist.
  • rastan, on 10/12/2007, -5/+13@lycolyco
    "the programmers are just being sloppy because they can have the luxury to be now"

    Maybe, but keep in mind that the audio and video formats are *standardized* by the Blu-Ray committee. They could have gone with MPEG4 but chose MPEG2. They could have gone with a higher-compressible audio format but stick with DTS/Dolby. The reason? Cost. More manufacturers make MPEG2 chips, and it requires less CPU power to decode, both of which drive down the cost of those components.

    Don't get me wrong, I think it's a boneheaded decision. To base a long-term on what it's going to cost *now* is ridiculous and irresponsible. If they would have gone with MPEG4/H.263, then supply/demand would easily bring the cost of those chips down, and we would enjoy that benefit in other areas as well. Think how ubiquitous mpeg2 got early on with DVD so that we could get MPEG2 PCI hardware decoders for our computers for very little, and eventually that's why the ATSC standards went with MPEG2, because the infrastructure was there for mpeg2 chips (MPEG4 was still experimental at best when the ATSC standards were being decided).

    Why they still charge $600 for the PS3 even when skimping on the format, well, that's a separate argument that's been done to death.
  • Derrekito, on 10/12/2007, -4/+12@hater2win
    Sounds like you have brain washed. I use to work in the computer department @ BB, and the whole time I was there it was a race to see who can screw over a customer more. Whoever wins gets a giftcard at the end of the week. The department had high numbers but an overwhelming amount of pissed off customers. I tried my hardest to resist such practice and refused to sell the forced packages, I even would recommend people to Newegg.com because frankly you can get things there better price after shipping compared to what I would have to pay WITH my discount. All in all Best Buy sucks, stick to the rule of thumb :p. HAHA now I know why I don't work there anymore ;).
  • zweben, on 10/12/2007, -2/+10I wasn't really talking about Geek Squad, but you're better off holding off on your purchase and asking a tech literate friend for advice than trusting the people at the store with the hope that you aren't being screwed big time.

    I mean, i'm sure some of the people try to honestly help you, but the store's policies definitely don't work towards making the employees act that way, so you're better off not trusting their commission-tainted purchasing advice IMO.
  • drn666, on 10/12/2007, -0/+8@rastan: Umm, no.

    Both Blu-ray and HD-DVD support, as standard, MPEG-2, MPEG-4 AVC (264) and Microsoft VC1 as standard codecs, out of the box. Any disc that has any of those 3 formats will play. Sony has stated that SONY PICTURES movies will be MPEG-2 for now, but that doesn't mean other studios will follow suit.

    Indeed, a lot of the early HD-DVD movies are in VC1, I believe.
  • Protonz, on 10/12/2007, -4/+11If Best Buy doesn't treat their customers in a fair manner just go to their competitors... like Future Shop.
  • SnyderMan32x33, on 10/12/2007, -2/+9best buy sales associates are non-commission.
  • redneckblues, on 10/12/2007, -0/+7I don't know about you guys, but I would not have a jury-rigged setup by running a game console as my primary movie player.
  • RegisteredUser, on 10/12/2007, -1/+7Why do people keep comparing Beta-Max to Blu-ray?

    Blu-ray is NOT a Sony proprietary product.Blu-ray is a collaborative effort from several manufacturers..

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blu-ray_Disc_Association
  • drn666, on 10/12/2007, -2/+8When DVD players first came out, they were $1500. Were they worth $1500? Probably not. Wait a year or two if you're worried about price. Reasonably priced HD players will by around by then.
  • rideagain, on 10/12/2007, -0/+6@Dhalgre:

    HD-DVD in fact uses a 405nm blue laser (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HD-DVD). Strictly speaking that's violet not blue, but at any rate it's definitely not red (red's about 650nm, blue is 475nm).

    Edit: redneckblues beat me to it.
  • steve693, on 10/12/2007, -0/+6I went to Best Buy when the Toshiba HD-DVD player first came out, and the setup they had for it was pathetic. It was tucked way to the side, completely away from all the other TV sets, BEHIND all the TV cables, and on some crappy 37" TV. It didn't even get it's own section, just tucked away in a corner somewhere, they didn't even dim the overhead lights on it. . .
  • Dhalgren, on 10/12/2007, -1/+7"BestBuy is my favorite store, hands down."

    Are you serious, are you also a masochist? I suppose if I had never had to return something or never had their sales associates or managers lie to me then I might also like Best Buy, but that has happened. I actually had a manager say to a sales associate in front of my face, "everyone just wants to get stuff for free" about me. I was just trying to get the manager to honor the price that the sales associate had told me. It should not be my fault that they don't train their employees right...
  • carpespasm, on 10/12/2007, -2/+7it was 100 million, and they're not taking into fact that all the DRM and cost makes these format wars a dud to begin with
  • rastan, on 10/12/2007, -0/+5See my response to archonon above for why this didn't happen even though it makes sense :)
  • Lososaurus, on 10/12/2007, -3/+8Picking between HD-DVD and Blu-Ray is like picking the lesser of two evils.....for me at least.
  • Moocat, on 10/12/2007, -0/+5You could always try it out at your local Best Buy and find what's up yourself.
  • elfuego, on 10/12/2007, -2/+7I just question the need for a new format altogether. Looking at the size and quality of quicktime movie trailers in Hi-Def(figure about 150 megs for 2 1/2 minutes of 1080p), and if my math's right, you should be able to squeeze 2 1/2 hours of HD footage onto a DVD9. Now, I know there's more complications to it than that, but given the new codecs coming out... both discs should have more than enough room presuming it's well-compressed and the players support the best codecs out there.
  • RyeBrye, on 10/12/2007, -2/+7I agree. I tend to take one-sided forum posts with a grain of salt. Many of them have gotten to the digg front page and turned out to be completely untrue (like that "McDonalds handing out Ubuntu CD's" story that was a croc?)'

    Sorry - I think I need a news source with more authority than a random forum poster before I will believe this.
  • Lynxpro, on 10/12/2007, -0/+5I'd just like to share my experience that I had two weeks ago at a nearby BestBuy. They didn't have a Blu-Ray player yet, but the sales staffer remarked that the Toshiba HD-DVD unit only outputted at 720p, not 1080i or 1080p. I don't know if he was using his own "information" or possibly repeating some unofficial remark that some people above him on the corporate ladder said.

    As for comments made by people stating that there isn't a dramatic difference between HD-DVD or Blu-Ray and standard DVD, you are all smoking crack. 1080i or 1080p has 600 lines of resolution more than standard DVD at 480p. That's an increase of more lines of resolution in total than what standard DVD has. That is dramatic.
  • NSResponder, on 10/12/2007, -0/+5What's to compare? Both systems use H264 video encoding, so their quality should be identical.

    -jcr
  • rideagain, on 10/12/2007, -0/+4I'm surprised by all the comments about why one format is better than the other because it has a bit more storage. Do you really think that in the future we'll still manipulate physical disks to play our movies? And have a big stack of them that grows as we buy more movies?

    Hell no! Hard drives have higher capacity than either format already, and they're improving all the time. In the future we're going to have all our movies in one machine, and when we want to watch a movie we just press a button. Shuffling physical disks around? Obsolete.

    And to those who say that we can already do that today: that's true, but the difference is that in the future it will be mainstream.
  • chadwn, on 10/12/2007, -0/+4Comparing the picture quality side by side is pretty much futile. They are going to look the same, technically Blu-ray may have a slight advantage. Any difference is likely caused by a poorly made player. As for Best Buy pushing Blu-ray over HD DVD, if it is true, you can pretty much call the media war over. I am not a fan of Best Buy or really have strong feels for either of the discs, but if you have the largest consumer electronic stores in the country pushing one over the other.. the common lame-man will probably end up with a Blu-ray player. Don't kid yourself otherwise. Best Buy does have that kind of influence in the consumer space.
  • rastan, on 10/12/2007, -1/+5"HD-DVD has nothing over Blu-Ray."

    It doesn't require a whole new manufacturing process with whole new factories to produce. That's the *only* reason HD-DVD has made it this far. Blu-Ray will require a whole new manufacturing architecture if everyone jumps on board with it, raising the entry costs for most media companies substantially. This is basically the same reason VHS won over Betamax (well, #2 reason, porn being #1).

    In technology, however, Blu-Ray spanks HD-DVD, no question. I'm rooting for Blu-Ray (Sony's recent intolerable arrogance aside), but I wouldn't count HD-DVD out until the consumers vote with their wallets, especially if HD-DVD media costs (and associated consumer price) come down faster than blu-ray, which they are almost certain to due to the reasons above.
  • Dhalgren, on 10/12/2007, -1/+5Blu-ray uses a blue laser.

    Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blu_ray
  • redneckblues, on 10/12/2007, -1/+5They both use a 405nm blue-violet laser.
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