What is Digg?127 Comments
- mklopez, on 07/20/2008, -2/+82Every time that Joker went into one of those monologues (in the hospital, in the interrogation room, etc) I just couldnt blink or breathe... because he was so wrong, yet he sounded SO right... chilling!
- happyfundave, on 07/20/2008, -6/+70Its the themes that are threaded throughout the film that truly elevate The Dark Knight beyond a simple comic book movie and places it in the level of the greatest crime movies.
- autocracy, on 07/21/2008, -2/+55That's the "beauty" of a psychopath. They're utterly perfect. They don't waver, they don't question. They know, and they go. That personality combined with intelligence? Patently dangerous.
- captainh, on 07/20/2008, -7/+58Great read.
- kcdstudios, on 07/20/2008, -1/+48More than anything I love how the Joker dangles from the top of a high building ala the original Batman
- mchisari, on 07/21/2008, -2/+45
This is good to see an assessment on this, but I think that the author misses the point. This is not a matter of the triumph of evil over good, this movie is about criticizing moral frameworks entirely. Dent is not good. He proclaims an interest in justice publicly, while privately admonishing the dictatorial rule of the roman empire. This colors everything he does, and shows that he is not the savior of Gotham he pretends to be. Batman is not good. He has brought this hell onto Gotham, in his viciousness and naivete, and escalated the city of Gotham from one of bleak depression to the point of utter nightmare. He's changed things. Forever. There's no going back. The future of Gotham as a battleground for grandiose psychopaths is laid at his feet. He wanted to come into Gotham with a simple, violent solution to the complex problems of society, and in response, the Joker becomes the complex, violent critique of his being. Compare the situation at the end of The Dark Knight with the beginning of Batman Begins. Suddenly Carmine Falcone's rule over Gotham's underworld seems preferable.
Notice how every single decision that's made in the movie is morally ambiguous (save possibly one, can you guess which one?). This is not a discussion of good versus evil. This is way more complex than that. - poprocksandsoda, on 07/21/2008, -8/+45I think they are really off on the themes. To me it was very simple:
The best laid plans of mice and men ... or rather the human need for a sense of structure/leadership is pointless
People need structure. If you take away their structure it causes people tremendous stress; people hate change. Starting a new job, school, etc. is very stressful. People seek a sense of structure in their life to battle this stress.
Even worse is to take away their leadership. The Joker talks about how threatening to kill the Mayor of Gotham caused so much more panic and distress than it did actually killing a Batman copycat. This is because the Mayor represents someone who will make a plan for the people.
The Joker is an agent of chaos who lays to rest every plan around him in order to show everyone that this fundamental instinct is pointless as you cannot control the world around you and looking for someone to do that for you is even more foolish. This is why Harvey Dent is his "Ace in the Hole" ... because he represents all of Gotham's hopes for order and leadership; seeing him fall would drive the point home even more.
The Joker stands high above the city looking down on ferries where a disaster is about to unfold very much in the way that a God figure looks down on the Earth. The people on the boats believe they can decide their fate, however the Joker will enact his will no matter what they do decide. In many ways, we make choices in life everyday yet it's not just our choices that determine what happens; there are always lots of external factors we cannot control. As was said by the Joker: "You had plans ... look where that got you". The lesson he wants to pass along is simple, the only way to happiness is to accept chaos because we cannot control the world anymore than we can control weather because we are not our own Gods. - crash331, on 07/21/2008, -1/+23The dilemma they faced on the ships is called the Prisoner's Dilemma and I think most people face a version of it every day. Make someone else suffer for your gain when you could both gain if you weren't so greedy. Pretty common.
- mchisari, on 07/21/2008, -1/+19"I really really doubt Nolan's objective was to make "examine ourselves as humans and as citizens"...."
I don't doubt it for a minute. If he didn't want us to think about the themes explored in his art, he wouldn't have put them in there.
"While it might be true, the reality is the 90% of us will never find ourselves in a situation such as the one in this movie, with the people in the ships."
Of course not, that's why it's a *metaphor*. - kds405, on 07/21/2008, -1/+17I'm really glad they didn't choose to show how the Joker becomes the Joker. It becomes repetitive in superhero films. In Batman, the villains are driven mad. In Spider-Man, they are mutated by science...and so on.
- Handonam, on 07/21/2008, -1/+15-----------------------
Max Says:
July 20th, 2008 at 9:13 am
I think one recurring theme was how Batman’s only true weakness is dogs.
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i don't know about you, but that made me laugh a bit haha. - imarketing, on 07/21/2008, -2/+16***spoilers***
I was actually waiting for one boat to press the trigger and have their own ship blow up. - AZRoboto, on 07/21/2008, -4/+17I'm surprised they ignored a theme that highlighted the end.
SPOILER (But we're on Digg, so I bet everyone's seen it by now): Is it okay to spy on people for the 'greater good'? Batman turned every cell phone into a sonar device, and could listen to every conversation, know where you are, and could see what was going on throughout the entire city of 30 million people.
How did this article not touch on that? It's something that is affecting all of our lives today with FISA and warrantless wiretapping. - jave8u, on 07/21/2008, -2/+14Also, a "social experiment" indeed.
- tech42er, on 07/21/2008, -2/+14If there was no Batman, Falcone wouldn't rule Gotham, the League of Shadows would've poisoned the water and the people of Gotham would have destroyed themselves in a hopeless, drug-induced panic.
- inactive, on 07/21/2008, -5/+16How wrong is he? Really. Honestly. What's the point of law and order besides the selfish continuation of your own pointless and worthless life? Why bother living if you can't just do what you want? And why toil over the random ***** that seems to stop everyone from moving on with their lives?
Why not just realize that everything you've ever hoped or dreamed about is all one big joke? - positron, on 07/21/2008, -2/+11Those who would tell you the truths you don't want to hear are the true heroes.
- NeedzABetterSN, on 07/21/2008, -1/+9Nihilism at it's finest.
I feel the need to "play the game" though.
If I did what I want I would draw alot of attention, and I don't like attention. Social Chameleon. - weirdwes, on 07/21/2008, -3/+11This was a great article and a joy to read, but it saddens to know that a large percentage of people will not relate these themes back to the world that we currently live in and very few, of those that do, will do anything beyond mentioning them in conversation. It really is sickening what we as people turn a blind eye to.
- FatBird19, on 07/21/2008, -1/+9yeah, but this is only the Joker's theme. There are far deeper themes at work than just the Joker's, which is why this film is so brilliant. It took what I found to be single nihilistic note Nihilistic theme of a movie like "The Mist" or "Fight Club" and made it say something more profound about ourselves.
- deweyhewson, on 07/21/2008, -4/+10When George W. Bush gives up the powers he created for himself and has captured and/or killed bin Laden then we can talk about any similarities.
If you really want to accept that theme, then at least Batman is what George W. Bush would be if he was motivated by good and for the betterment of society even at the cost of himself.
George W. Bush does not have any of those redeeming qualities. - MalarkeyPN, on 07/21/2008, -1/+7A couple things I noticed that he didn't mention in the section about imposing order on an inherently chaotic world: there were several scenes where things were "inverted" or flipped from their normal roles:
1) Batman beating up the SWAT team to save them
2) The fire truck that was on fire
3) An upside-down camera filming an upside-down Joker, which made it look like he was flying just as he was being defeated
4) ...not to mention all the joker's tricks (lying about the Dent/Rachel locations; the captor/hostage ruse with doctors and clowns; threatening to blow up bridges then putting bombs on the ferries...)
I think I'm forgetting a few. - Daunting, on 07/21/2008, -2/+7I'm happy that a comic book movie can bring this much intellectual discussion to the table. You'd have a hard time discussing the philosophical themes of Spiderman 3.
- mistacrazee, on 07/21/2008, -5/+10Interesting analysis. This is the type of movie that will be studied and pored over for decades. A masterpiece deserving of a best picture nomination, while simultaneously a box office blockbuster, rare indeed. This is one of the first of many interpretations of this impressive film.
- SemiSarcastic, on 07/21/2008, -2/+7Hehe us commenting on the new Batman movie are the least of your problems.
- smilebit, on 07/21/2008, -1/+5He touched on this in the section "The Thin Line Between Anarchy and Order".
- Acglaphotis, on 07/21/2008, -1/+5Meh, it saddened me to see that the article was exceptionally short and that my scrollbar was little because of the amount of inane comments in that page. :/
- wontstoptalking, on 07/21/2008, -2/+6Well, they both talk kinda funny....but that's where the similarities end.
Except in the end, everybody hated Batman. So there's a similarity. I guess. - dnwolfgang, on 07/21/2008, -1/+5I don't think so. The Joker would want the survivors to live with what they had done.
- prgmctan, on 07/21/2008, -2/+6There was a comment about GWB above yours.
I think that the boats not getting blown up represented hope for mankind - Handonam, on 07/21/2008, -1/+4"I haven't even seen this movie and I hate it, and everyone who is creaming themselves over it."
i didn't bother reading the rest of your comment. such a weak argument already. - digbird, on 07/21/2008, -5/+8I thought it was a fantastic movie, and I mourn the death of Heath Ledger since he did so well in the role of the Joker (completely different and even more menacing than Jack Nicholson's).
As for the Harvey Dent storyline, I felt that the Dark Knight slowed down a bit once Batman had captured the Joker (I assume that he was packed off to Arkham Asylum). Ledger's Joker was just such a terrifying and compelling figure ... evoking the same sort of fascinated dread that I think I would have if I was eyeball to eyeball with a King Cobra.
Also, I thought that they overdid it with Dent's physical transformation. It was hard for me to believe that he'd would have been able to walk or even speak, let alone carry out his revenge. Open wounds get infected and bleed after all. I thought the character was well-drawn but I think they would have been better off doing injuries similar to those that Tommy Lee Jones sported in "Batman Forever" in the same role.
Anyone know if they plan to bring the Joker back in the inevitable sequels? If they did, I would hope they would tell the replacement to imitate Ledger's portrayal of the "Ace of Knaves" rather than come up with yet another look and style. - tech42er, on 07/21/2008, -1/+4"However, to Batman the means don't justify the ends."
They do regarding the sonar wiretapping. Fox objects to it but Batman considers it necessary. He destroys it afterwards but he certainly does use it. - caBoss, on 07/21/2008, -2/+5The article is okay, but nearly all straightforward themes. Some of the comments are what make it a worthwhile read. The comment "evergreen" makes is one of the most insightful, in my opinion.
- Asianwaste, on 07/21/2008, -1/+4I saw the first one's theme as Fear and Courage (the will to act and do what's right)
The Second one was Chaos vs Humanity's ability to do what is morally right and achieve order by doing so (it's a throw back to the will to do what's right from the first one)
The third one will have a theme of trust and betrayal IMO.
Trust between Batman and Gordon and gaining trust back with the people of Gotham.
Bruce Wayne and Lucius Fox and the secret of Batman and how far Batman will go
In the comic, Gordon had a marital affair with fellow cop Sarah Essen... falls well into the trust theme.
Gordon and his corrupt police force
Alfred and how he was entrusted to watch over Bruce
There's more, but there are definitely enough pre-established notion following this theme. - jstancom, on 07/21/2008, -2/+5Yes, I thought about it.
To Bush, the ends justify the means. Torture, warrantless wiretapping, and other controversial programs do keep America safe, but at the cost of freedom.
To Batman, the sonar device allows him to basically map all of Gotham and help him find The Joker. This also infringes upon civil liberties. However, to Batman the means don't justify the ends. Batman actually knows where to draw the line, such as bringing criminals to justice rather than killing them. Also, when he told Dent to stop when he had the gun pointing at the henchman's head, he drew the line on "torture" techniques.
To quote Gordon "Batman is the hero that Gotham deserves, not the hero that it wants."
Bush has done countless things that are against the law and controversial. But overall, the country is safer, but not by much. - Acglaphotis, on 07/21/2008, -2/+5Epic, the true meaning, means a kind of poem. I think the "meme" meaning is entirely acceptable here.
- TheDefiant, on 07/22/2008, -0/+2If one of the citizens had decided to blow up the prisoner boat, it would have just proved the Joker correct. Instead, the decision made by both parties on the boats was in a way a flicker of hope for the people of Gotham City and their humanity. I found the scene's timing to be very appropriate due to the fact that it serves as "a light at the end of the tunnel" for the entire movie.
- mchisari, on 07/21/2008, -2/+4
If you believe that, you might like this guy:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leo_Strauss - ajwinder, on 07/21/2008, -1/+3Yeah, except, you know, his system was used to find one guy and then self destructed at the end, as opposed to being used to compile records on everyone and then have them safely stored in case, you know, they wanted to dick with someone at a later date.
Plus, hes Batman. Come on. You know if Batman was the VP instead of Cheney, all of this FISA uproar wouldn't be any big deal. - sapphire9488, on 07/21/2008, -2/+4Great article, I love how the movie got into subjects of human nature and how quickly chaos can occur in a normally "civilized" society. It was a fantastic movie and one of my favorites already. I rarely go to the movies, but I might even shell out another $8.50 to go to the theater again. Heath Ledger's kicked so much ass, his performance lived up every bit to the hype surrounding it.
- ravithepimp, on 07/21/2008, -0/+2Perhaps he means the previous, conserved meaning of the word rather than the connotation everyone throws around today.
- kianbung, on 07/21/2008, -1/+3ah. someone here thinks like me.
awesome. - Risingashes, on 07/21/2008, -1/+3I think the Joker would of been best served by having both remotes wired to blow up the civilians boat.
If the crims pull the trigger he gets a whole boatload of potential recruits who have just offed a hundred people to save themselves.
If the civs pull the trigger you have a boatfull of crims who had a boatfull of civs try to kill them. Chaos and crimespree ensue.
That being said the upbeat worked fairly well for that point in the movie despite the fact that anyone who has done Psy101 (or anyone who is honest about humanity) would tell you how absolutely BS it was that no one pulled the trigger. - aserer511, on 07/21/2008, -1/+3I thought that part was uncannily dark, and cool.
- mchisari, on 07/21/2008, -1/+3
Fair enough, then he should have hung up his mask after Batman Begins. Gordon predicted it all with his speech about escalation. - ravithepimp, on 07/21/2008, -0/+2Wasn't it a double meaning? The social expiriment had to do with Batman and the city as a whole, not just the boats, and the "prisoner's dilemma", which was just a facet of it all.
- aserer511, on 07/21/2008, -1/+3I particularly loved how The Joker was painted. That 'agent of chaos' monologue was great; his motivations were not physical, but he simply loved to see the world askew. IT also lended credibility to painting the joker as a true mad man. I thought the movie did not deal with Bruce's internal anger (or lack thereof) well. When *SPOILER* Rachel died, that should have effected bruce as much if not more as it did Harvey; they grew up together. Nolan kept Batman too calm.
- poprocksandsoda, on 07/21/2008, -1/+3Not really a spoiler for me because I love this song. To show you how naive I am ... I didn't realize George Michael was gay until 2003.
- TheDefiant, on 07/22/2008, -0/+1You had a badass English teacher too?
Thanks Padilla! -
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