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A website critical of the claims of the Zeitgeist Movie.
zeitgeistcritic.com — After watching the movie myself, I was bothered by how the first segment implies that the phrase ‘SUN of God’ morphed into ‘SON of God,’ which, unless the Hebrew or Greek words for son and sun are as extremely close as they are in English, is a rather large mistake. ...... I found this website while researching this discrepancy.
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- HumanCattle, on 07/07/2008, -4/+7Good. Another debunking site. Hopefully this will encourage actual DEBATE rather than trolling and name-calling.
How about it, guys?- jcm267, on 07/07/2008, -3/+10What is there to debate? There are facts on the "debunker" and lies and delusions on the troofer side. It's pretty cut and dry.
- HumanCattle, on 07/07/2008, -8/+5Well it seems you have made up your mind, and anything that disagrees with you is "lies and delusions".
Therefore there can be no debate. Your mind is closed to alternatives. - brad3378, on 07/07/2008, -2/+8Do you have any favorite websites for or against the Zeitgeist Movie?
I have a friend who recently watched the movie and she's VERY freaked out by it.
She's a very emotional person (whereas I tend to be logical) and I'm trying my best to explain to her that this movie is a collection of conspiracy theories.
Unfortunately, I don't know enough about religion to debunk anything in the 1st portion of the movie.
I'm very skeptical about the "SON" vs. "SUN" issue, but I only speak/read english so I can't debunk it.
As an Engineer, I'm skeptical about the 9/11 inside job theories despite the fact that the WTC steel was destroyed without being sent to Metalurgists and Scholars to learn from to prevent similar disasters in the future.
On the other hand, as somebody currently working as a military defense contractor, it is fairly common knowledge that people like me are treating this war as a ***** money grab. Never in my life have I earned so much money in such a short time despite being significantly overqualified for my current position. If you've ever followed my comments on digg, you should know that I'm a big opponent of big government spending and our $9.4 Trillion national debt, but I'll be completely honest with you. They pay me extremely well and I'm taking advantage of the bureaucracy.
As far as the RFID chips go, this is highly speculative.
I don't buy into this part of the conspiracy either.
The technology is just too far away and at this point in time, there just aren't enough advantages to convince citizens to be chipped.
Anyway,
all comments are welcome. - HumanCattle, on 07/07/2008, -3/+10"it is fairly common knowledge that people like me are treating this war as a ***** money grab."
My experiences as a contractor led me to the same conclusions. Once I understood how government spends the taxpayers money, it led me to question a number of my beliefs and my understanding of the purpose of government itself. Now I suppose I am a "truther".
With 911, I tend to subscribe to the "let it happen on purpose" angle rather than the "made it happen on purpose". I have read a wide variety of information regarding the Bush family and Bin Laden family, the CIA, Iran Contra, drug-smuggling, weapons deals and links to the Pakistani ISI.
I could believe the that 19 muslims hijacked airliners and crashed them into the towers, and I could accept that the impacts caused two (err three) towers to collapse. I could also accept that rogue elements within the CIA, tied to the Bush / Bin Laden crime families, could have worked in league with rogue elements within the ISI to 'let it happen on purpose'. Only a handful of people at the highest levels of spookery would need to be involved. Stranger things have happened.
I'm with you on the sun->son thing. I've heard Jordan Maxwell make the same claims. There is quite a lot of prior literature discussing the Christ/Dying God archetype and it's recurrence within numerous mystery religions. Aleister Crowley investigated this at length almost 100 years ago. It's fairly obvious that Christendom has absorbed and modified numerous pagan rituals and mythologies over the centuries, and that the historical figure of Jesus was probably very different from the white-skinned fairy tale Christ worshipped by most modern Christians.
As far as the RFID chips go - I'm very concerned with Aaron Russo's and numerous other "conspiracy theorists" predictions unfolding exactly as described on an almost daily basis. We seem to be hurdling at lightspeed into a future cashless society based on credits, cards and chips. The abstraction of the concept of money from units of trade with inherent value, to representative / fiat physical tokens, to the removal of the tokens altogether, is very concerning to me.
You could pull up numerous articles about various corporations and governments that are already using implanted chips in some way or another. I think that the chip idea is kind of redundant in the era of biometric identification. Why would you need an implanted chip to store authentication information, when a unique face-print could achieve the same result?
Zeitgeist was very well done, but I think it tried to cover too much information in one documentary... it's a mile long but an inch deep. Every one of the issues it raises could warrant its own documentary. - inobla, on 07/07/2008, -1/+9Holy... Cow! I'm impressed by your second and third paragraphs.
Why don't you try to talk some sense into your truther brethren and denounce the sensationalist junk science petted by the likes of Jones & Co. so your cause might actually have a chance in hell of being taken seriously? (also ending the monetary reward for those who make a living off lies and *****).
I personally believe the "let it happen" theory to be ridiculous, but I'll admit that it's astronomically more plausible than at least 95% of the theories that the mainstream "truth" movement has built their premise on. It doesn't require the same type of massive illogical leaps of faith based on bad information and poor speculation. Also as you've pointed out, it's the only denomination of Trooferism that doesn't require that thousands of "insiders" are keeping quiet.
*****! I'm afraid I'm going to have to digg your comment. :( - ssn697, on 07/07/2008, -1/+8"I'm with you on the sun->son thing. I've heard Jordan Maxwell make the same claims. There is quite a lot of prior literature discussing the Christ/Dying God archetype and it's recurrence within numerous mystery religions."
More and more evidence is coming forward that the "Jesus rising from the dead" story in the bible has nearly identical stories in Jewish texts predating Jesus by 300 years.
The original stories are centered around a leader dying in battle, being resurrected 3 days later, then leading them to victory (not the "dying for your sins" twist).
When you talk conspiracy, THERE is a good one. The church CANNOT let all the Christians find out the bible is what it really is; a collection of old stories, re-written.
- HumanCattle, on 07/07/2008, -8/+5Well it seems you have made up your mind, and anything that disagrees with you is "lies and delusions".
- jcm267, on 07/07/2008, -3/+10What is there to debate? There are facts on the "debunker" and lies and delusions on the troofer side. It's pretty cut and dry.
- Hangly, on 07/07/2008, -6/+1I kind of agree, the part about religion is pretty worthless.
The part about the Fed though is dead on. Fast forward to the second half and start watching there, that's what I do. - GhostyBoy, on 07/07/2008, -4/+2For starters I will just say that Zeitgeist is my favorite movie ever. Yup. Ever.
I was watching it and I was just like "whoa..." and then when the Jimi Hendrix (my favorite guitarist ever) quote comes up "When the power of love overcomes the love of power the world will know peace" I knew before the movie was even over that it just overtook Natural Born Killers as the best thing I have ever seen.
As a musician and video editor I stand in awe of the creators artistic ability. Not just that but I've seen people whose lives were changed by this film, and people who have become outraged. You have to respect the impact it has had.
You can say it's all ***** if you want, but that just means the guy is an even better filmmaker if he assembled such a convincing film out of nothing. And one thing is also for sure: The "conspiracy theorists" seem to have a monopoly on the kickass creative types.
You may think 'Screw loose change' is valid, but you have to face the fact that as a film it sucks ass. Hard. It's not even a film really. They just vandalized the original. Where are all the amazing productions in support of the official story?- ssn697, on 07/07/2008, -1/+7"Where are all the amazing productions in support of the official story?"
It's called the video events of the day, MIT papers, etc.
The idea of making some film with "great production" over a tragedy like that day is beyond repulsive.- GhostyBoy, on 07/07/2008, -3/+5What?!? So is Shindler's List repulsive?
What about all the phenomenal films, art and literature based on every major tragedy in recorded history? Where is ssn and how did you get into his account? - jcm267, on 07/07/2008, -3/+7Schindler's list is accurate and not full of outright lies.
- GhostyBoy, on 07/07/2008, -3/+3You are veering off course.
His answer is to the question: "Where are all the amazing productions in support of the official story?" He said it would be repulsive to make such a film.
We are talking about a film in support of your version of the story, which would support your opinion. My statement is that like Shindler's List, such a piece of work could be phenomenal, not repulsive.
Try to keep up, jcm. Not everything can be argued with a knee-jerk response. - Hortnon, on 07/07/2008, -5/+7There's a difference between telling a story to further emphasize how horrible the event was (Schindler's List), and a homemade "this is the craziest ***** I can come up with" video posted to YouTube.
- JohnReb, on 07/07/2008, -2/+6Good movies aren't the same thing as good history.
"Tora, Tora, Tora", "The Longest Day", "Sink the Bismark" All good movies, all bad history. Good movies that are good history are extremely rare.
I'll stick to the actual history, you enjoy your movies. - GhostyBoy, on 07/07/2008, -2/+2@Hortnon: You just pretty much just re-wrote jcm's comment even though I already addressed it directly above you.
@JohnReb: I know full well that history in film is portrayed for entertainment value, not accuracy. That's not even my point.
Let me clarify, since no one seems to really be reading today: Ssn implied that making a film (or any other medium of art) about 9/11, particularly detailing the events as the unfolded in the official story, would be somehow distasteful. My argument, which has nothing to do the accuracy of Zeitgeist, is that such a film could be informative and/or artistic, and is by no means inherently disrespectful. - Hortnon, on 07/07/2008, -2/+6I read the comment as SSN isn't simply saying ANY movie is bad, but the ***** "Loose Change"s of the world are. The ones that focus on presentation only, sacrificing factual message. That's what I took the "great production" to mean.
- JohnReb, on 07/08/2008, -2/+5Some of us were there. Many of us in that category find the thought of making aesthetic judgements about the deaths of those 3,000 dead men and women, at this point in time, to be extremely distasteful, disrespectful, and degrading.
When there is sufficient historical space, it won't be so bad. How long between the death camps being liberated and the first movie actually showing the death camps? While 9/11 is not as bad a human tragedy, it does point out the need for some time to pass.
We feel that the raw news footage along with the scientific evidence can and does speak for itself. We find evidence that has to be carefully and artistically crafted to be suspect. - GhostyBoy, on 07/08/2008, -3/+3If I died in those buildings I would want people to get to the bottom of it. I've seen video confessions from first responders and 9/11 families who want further investigation on the matter.
Why is your opinion more important than theirs or anyone else that doesn't feel the same way you do? - Hortnon, on 07/08/2008, -2/+4Now YOU'RE getting off track.
The question is not just the message, but how it's presented.
Why does every 9/11 truth video follow the same general format of bad creepy music, creepy voiceover, cultlike themes, and unsourced claims? It becomes disrespectful when it's implied through the format that the author is attempting to push an agenda rather than present facts. - GhostyBoy, on 07/08/2008, -2/+3Why? You know why. To convince people their side of the story is right. The same way that some of the techniques that the official story defenders use go from silly to borderline ridiculous.
That's one of the reasons Zeitgeist is so great.
bad creepy music - the soundtrack is undeniably fantastic. Sure it has creepy parts, but it also swings from tribal rhythms to full orchestral arrangements.
creepy voiceovers - I'd hardly call that guy's voice creepy
cultlike themes - that's so vague that I can't really address it
unsourced claims - the film includes a huge breakdown of sources at the end for almost every claim he makes
For me it really breaks the mold of your average truther film in every way. - inobla, on 07/08/2008, -1/+4I love how they choreographed the artillery shots and explosions to the beats in the intro. That was well done, but enjoyment of Zeitgeist pretty much ends there. It feels like I'm watching an L. Ron Hubbard propaganda flick.
- GhostyBoy, on 07/08/2008, -2/+3Seriously?
The intro about religion is wicked! I'm not going to say that I fact checked every quote ("fact-checking" religious texts is kind of an oxy-moron if you ask me) but the way the film puts it makes perfect sense.
Man seeks to understand the sun, his source of life, so he tracks it with the maps and stories that we now know as astrology. These myths are incredibly important to the cultures that teach them, but throughout time they become distorted and politicized and mutated into what we now know as religion.
To me it just seems like a natural progression.
Another cool Zeitgeist fact: It was all made by just one guy and it was his first film ever. - JohnReb, on 07/08/2008, -1/+3@Ghostyboy
I never claimed my opinion is more important, why do you think it is less important? I would love to know more details. But all I see presented by the "truthers" is evidence that vary easily is proven wrong or misleading.
None of that is the point here though. The point is your expressed desire to see a more professional movie presesnting your opponents view. Why would you think a slick, tailored, carefully manipulated movie will elevate any premise and make it more factual?
The facts are what matter, not the musical bed under tham. - GhostyBoy, on 07/08/2008, -1/+2Zeitgeist and other truther movies edit their films together in such a way that the viewer gets the sense that "all the pieces fit". Clearly this is done in the editing room to achieve the desired effect, which the film-maker believes is the truth.
To be honest I don't really think that you could make a film detailing the official story that has the same effect. It's just too far-fetched for even the slickest editor to put together so that any layman would understand it and get it.
And I certainly don't think your opinion is less important, John. What I am saying is that if something offends you, or you consider it distasteful, that is a subjective reaction and should not be held as a standard for everyone else to adhere to. - JohnReb, on 07/08/2008, -1/+1GhostyBoy: "And I certainly don't think your opinion is less important, John. What I am saying is that if something offends you, or you consider it distasteful, that is a subjective reaction and should not be held as a standard for everyone else to adhere to."
Agreed, which is why I explained that I was there. People can judge how much weight to give my opinion on the aesthetic value of any movie on the event with full knowledge of my personal bias regarding that.
GhostyBoy: "To be honest I don't really think that you could make a film detailing the official story that has the same effect. It's just too far-fetched for even the slickest editor to put together so that any layman would understand it and get it."
Regardless of how good any editor makes a premise look, it neither gains nor loses its factual footing. The basis for what happened is simple physics. How artistic were any of the physics classes you ever took in High School?
The entertainment value of the movie presenting the case neither adds nor subtracts anything from the value of the case. The idea it should have any consideration is simply astonishing to me. Is Eugenics more palatable because Leni Riefenstahl made glamorous movies?
- GhostyBoy, on 07/07/2008, -3/+5What?!? So is Shindler's List repulsive?
- ssn697, on 07/07/2008, -1/+7"Where are all the amazing productions in support of the official story?"
- RefriedBeams, on 07/08/2008, -1/+0http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zeitgeist_The_Movie
to save you having to sit through it all. - JohnReb, on 07/08/2008, -1/+2@GhostyBoy
I never claimed my opinion is more important. Why do you think it is less important?
I would love to know more details, but I've seen no reliable evidence that there was criminal action on the government's part. What evidence I do see put out by those who claim there is has always been easily revealed as wrong or misinterpreted.
None of that is the point here, though. This is about your expressed desire to see a well-made movie on the part of your opponents. And I simply don't understand why you think a tailored, manipulated,slick production will somehow elevate either sides positions to become more factual? The facts are the facts, the musical bed is irrelevant to that.- JohnReb, on 07/08/2008, -0/+2Don't know why this double posted, sorry.
- sixsixsixtimer, on 07/08/2008, -2/+1Dugg to help debunk the trooftards.
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