What is Digg?Sponsored by openforum.com
Social Media: What's Next? view!
openforum.com - Mashable's Adam Ostrow offers pointers for success in tomorrow's social media...
58 Comments
- mapez, on 10/10/2007, -2/+20And let the digg conspiracy theories that Ferrari actually runs the FIA because so and so's uncle is related to their cousin who saw a missle hit the pentagon whose wife is the secretary for the general offices said so.
- frederoil, on 10/10/2007, -3/+19at least Alonso and Hamilton still have their points.
- Spetz, on 10/10/2007, -0/+14At least there's F1 news on the front page.
- Spetz, on 10/10/2007, -1/+12To be honest, if the evidence proves that McClaren gained performance from the Ferrari documents then the penalty is just. You do have to look at the relative performance of the teams though. At the start of the season Ferrari had a clear performance advantage. Around the time the documents were alleged to have been transferred, McClaren seemed to gain three tenths of a second in performance. Coincidence? Maybe.
The designers wouldn't have even had to have copied Ferrari's work, it could have just pointed them in a different direction. You know how it is when you look at someone else's engineering, software, electrical or otherwise, and you see the direction that they've gone with certain parts of their design and you think 'oh yeah, that's a better way of doing it'. That's all it could have been. Ferrari's accusation was that the one person in control of the documentation shared it with other people in the team and this must therefore have been true due to the verdict, so the penalty is appropriate to the crime. - Ocelot13, on 10/10/2007, -1/+11whats this, a dupe on digg? from the same day? no way!
- Mist0r_Wiggles, on 10/10/2007, -0/+7The rest of the world, you nascar idiot
- afbase, on 10/10/2007, -0/+6"I cant wait for 2008 where Ferrari will finally get what they deserve a fat load of losses. and good riddance."
with no TCS next year, I'd worry most about Alonso and the way he opens throttle out of turns. He's the biggest TCS whore out of the main four, raikkonen, hamilton, alonso, and massa. - GoatMonkey2112, on 10/10/2007, -0/+6They should take away Alonso's points. Just because he's an ass.
- Skurvydog, on 10/10/2007, -0/+5OK. I am Italian and love Ferrari, Campagnolo, Moto Guzi and hell, I admit Sofia Loren is stil hot. When I hear intellectual property right infringement? I think of redmond or SCO... I mean WTF. Common, This is supposed to be about a finely tuned machine and your ability to direct it. Shifting, acceleration. Feeling the road and traction versus power. Not a automated launch sequence!!! Take all electronics out of the race car. Make it man and machine dammit. Let you feel the turn of the road, let the person control how throttle to use, how much petrol there is left because the petrol tank shifts the volume.... My friends, that is racing. That is you and I would do before a few ales on the track. Get back to the roots.
/His Leetness - inactive, on 10/10/2007, -2/+7So you are telling me that your team has someone that is in possession of tons of data on your biggest rival and you can easily use that data against the rival but only that person has even taken a peak at that data and no one else. stop trying to paint mclaren as a saint. They messed up big this yea and its about time they paid for it this year.
- EvilWalksWithMe, on 10/10/2007, -0/+4Yeah, and Shumi can give Damon Hill 100 million for cheating him out of a championship in 1994.
- scratt, on 10/10/2007, -1/+4Ferrari play to win, both on the track and off. Everyone in F1 knows this. And yes they have a lot more sway than perhaps is fair. But then they are as much part of the whole F1 Circus as is Ecclestone. They are not simply a team.
McLaren need to look at their internal procedures, and should have protected themselves better. They dropped the ball. At the end off the day the fine is a "stupidity tax".
What this will affect is the freedom of good designers to move around the paddock, until teams get cast iron paperwork in place to protect themselves. (Anything that Jackie Stewart has to say about "F1 losing sponsorship", and "woe is F1", etc. etc. is crap.)
There is no way they could penalize the drivers unless they were directly involved as they have competed in cars that are within the regulations and have competed fairly. That is a wise and fair decision, and the FIA really had no other choice.
Overall it's just one of those things.
For those that don't like McLaren being stripped of their points then just keep a tally of their score for the rest of the season and have your own Constructor's Champion. Simple. Now move on. - curveo, on 10/10/2007, -0/+3I definitely agree. I don't think the drivers were really involved in the shenanigans. F1 has become a very political sport! Still love following it though.
- EvilWalksWithMe, on 10/10/2007, -0/+2Ferrari should just piss off. If McLaren really did use Ferrari's information then shame on them. Because it would mean McLaren managed to use Ferrari technology better than Ferrari were able to. The current points standings prove that fact.
- EvilWalksWithMe, on 10/10/2007, -0/+2The verdict doesn't prove your statement at all. If the information benifited the the TEAM then their drivers would also have been excluded from that championship race. Use your bloody head.
- flipcritic, on 10/10/2007, -2/+4I didn't know Bill Belichick was with McLaren.
- billmania, on 10/10/2007, -0/+2we have proof that Pedro de La Rosa was in on it, as well as Alonso, I say throw them both out. Fernando used to call Schumi a dirty driver, he'd NEVER do something like this.
F1 has always been a political sport, - Perisona, on 10/10/2007, -0/+2This is weird. If they've determined that the car was unfair, then didnt the drivers have the advantage of an unfair car. stripping them of points in just one championship is ridiculous. Either both, or neither!
- EvilWalksWithMe, on 10/10/2007, -0/+2Obviously, they didn't use the information. ONE McLaren employee had the documents, that were given to him by a Ferrari employee. They are the only two that should be punished. They should be joining those two idiots from Toyota a few years back that are currently serving jail time.
- Mearn, on 10/10/2007, -0/+2Yes
- vemerge, on 10/10/2007, -0/+2I agree. BUT, I really don't agree with the $100 million fine. WTF! For possessing a document? A hundred million dollars? That's just *****.
- tennisOK, on 10/10/2007, -0/+2Thus far we haven't seen any evidence that the team, the cars or the drivers benefitted in any way. There is a press release due later today. From what I can make out in the innuendo at this stage indicates that perhaps more people knew the information had been leaked (including Alonso and de la Rosa) than Mclaren originally acknowledged which is very different to actually benefitting from any IP.
Given there appears to be no Ferrari IP on the car (very unlikely given the totally different design characteristics of the car) it seems odd they have been punished in such a punitive fashion when you consider the case of Toyota, in 2004, who's engineers were successfully tried in a civil court for stealing IP, and who's 2004 car was an identical copy of Ferrari's 2003 car. That smacks of hypocrisy. - Mist0r_Wiggles, on 10/10/2007, -0/+1amen
- bogartrules, on 10/10/2007, -6/+7That is bloody BuLLSH## one way or the other Ferrari was going to win this and i guess personal responsibility does not factor into it at all the employee was the one with the documents and now the whole team has to pay. I think the FIA is full of something i cant type in a public forum but i am thinking it bloody well believe me i am thinking it. firo is out of his mind but typical Ferrari fan win any way possible not on the track of course. I cant wait for 2008 where Ferrari will finally get what they deserve a fat load of losses. and good riddance.
- Comanche, on 10/10/2007, -0/+1Can you please post a link to the one with more diggs? If you can't then STFU.
- SteveTheSultan, on 10/10/2007, -0/+1After reading the Findings .http://www.fia.com/resources/documents/17844641__WMSC_Decision_130907.pdf
ALONSO IS A CHEAT AND A CROOK. He knew the information was from Ferrari. I Sincerely hope Hamilton runs the ***** in the wall. (Don't worry, the mono-coque will save him) Alonso should have is points taken away from him. Its great, because even through Alonso is a scumbag and cheating, Hamilton is smacking him around like a little bitch.
I hope Kimi Wins this weekend, but even more I hope Hamilton wins the championship so Alonso will scream like a little bitch.
Go Ferrari - Stelex, on 10/10/2007, -1/+2I don't agree. They are driving cars taht have gained advantage from the spy-files, tehrefore their result is impacted. I'd ban the whole team, including drivers.
Whan MS was found to have floor plate to thin on his Benetton in Belgium 1995, it was not the team, it was him who was banned. Why? Because the car he was driving had advantage. So should Alonso and Hamilton ne banned. - wisie, on 10/10/2007, -0/+1What I find disappointing is the fact people are questioning if Hamilton's good run is thanks to Ferrari.. what a cop out
- tkcom, on 10/10/2007, -1/+2dupetastic! http://www.digg.com/motorsport/McLaren_hit_with_Formula_1_constuctors_ban
- randomfish, on 10/10/2007, -0/+1this doesn't make sense does it, if maclaren had really done something bad enough to incur such penalties then surely the drivers should also have been punished.
i believe that if this had been the other way around then Ferrari would have escape pretty much unscathed but because of there name and reputation Ferrari can demand the penalty they want, and what they want is to win the constructors championship - wgroves, on 10/10/2007, -1/+2What's TCS? Traction Control?
- earthtoandy, on 10/10/2007, -0/+1CHANG: Captain Kirk, are you aware that under Federation law, the Captain of a Starship is considered responsible for the actions of his men?
KIRK: I am.
CHANG: So if it should prove members of your crew did in fact carry out such an assassination?
BONES: Jim! They're setting us up! Your honors, I protest-!
JUDGE: The defendant will be silent! Captain Kirk, you will answer the question.
KIRK: As Captain I am responsible for the conduct of the crew under my command. - buglord, on 10/10/2007, -1/+2Why don't the ferraristi just admit their fetish and start a Ferrari-only racing class to indulge all their wet dreams.
I am ***** sick and tired of FIA's flipflopping. Why have rules when each penalty is absolutely arbitrarily set? - tennisOK, on 10/10/2007, -0/+1The point about Toyota couldn't actually be more saliant, for two reasons. One, the 2004 ferrari, if you recall was just an evolution of the 2003 car (and indeed, Ferrari also ilegally licensed the design of the 2003 car to Sauber, a whole other question arises there...) so both (or indeed all three) vehicles shared IP. Now Mclaren have to prove their 2008 car doesn't posses any Ferrari IP before being allowed entry to next season. From what we know at the moment, there is no suggestion that the 2007 car uses *any* Ferrari IP, totally unlike the situation with Ferrari/Toyota/Sauber, which all shared IP. Somehow Toyota escaped any reprimand for this despite the very serious (and ruled in a civil court) theft of very expensive IP from Ferrari, for which the cluprits are actuyally still serving jail time. They then had their most successful season up to that point with this Ferrari clone. Furthermore, Ferrari escaped the FIA's wrath, despite licesning IP to Sauber, which opened up the muddy waters of customer cars and so on. Except in this case, there wasn't even a pretend holding company involved (a la Red Bull and Honda) - it was covered up.
Again, it's somewhat ironic that this whole case originates from Mclaren being tipped off about Ferrari running an ilegal car in the first two races (from a Ferrari employee, no less).
As for your "playbook" theory, you don't appear to understand the complexities and accuracy of simulation models involved in forumula one. The "tactics" they could have gleaned from this data would have been relatviely inconsequential, as during every test, every practice session and every race, they gather data like this from photographs, timing data etc. They would already have known a lot of this data within a reasonable amount of accuracy.
Given the innuendo we're hearing today (and over the last few days) abotu a Renault's engineer having taken 3 discs (not clear at this stage if they're CDs, DVDs or Hard disks) of data with him to Renault, and how this year's Renault incorporates Mclaren IP, i'm not surprised to see Flavio Briatore suddently critiscising the severity of the judgement, despite the fact that he was one of the fiercest critics a few days ago, is an interesting development. I very much doubt the FIA would punish Renault in the same way they had Mclaren, even though it's clearly a more serious crime, simply because, like Toyota, they aren't beating Ferrari.
Until we hear the statement later today, all we have to go on are what we've heard already, and for the punishment to fit the crime we're going to have to hear some pretty serious evidence produced. Anything else just smacks of FIA(T) hypocasy again. But we shall see. For what it's worth, I'm not a Mclaren fan, or ferrari fan, I'm simply amazed the FIA can get away with this. - Dasickninja, on 10/10/2007, -0/+1.. From one basement monkey to the next.
- Comanche, on 10/10/2007, -0/+1ok after reading this.......http://www.fia.com/resources/documents/17844641__WMSC_Decision_130907.pdf
Mclaren really did use some of the data they received. It maybe not be worth 100mil but its worth their constructors points this year! - Spetz, on 10/10/2007, -0/+1I found an excellent editorial on the matter which does a lot of explaining. After having read it, the penalty certainly seems completely justified.
http://www.itv-f1.com/Feature.aspx?Type=James_Allen&PO_ID=40674 - blackmage439, on 10/10/2007, -0/+1Duplicate story.
I don't understand why it's so difficult to not post duplicates, ON THE SAME DAY, TOO! This is even practically the same fricken title as well! - Randinn, on 10/10/2007, -0/+1Nice try, I do not watch rednecks drive around in a circle, some ero-trash try and speed by some other ero-trash, nor do I worship sports monkies playing with balls, but you can waste your life doing that. And I too can make it personal jackass, do me a favor and stay in your parents basement, that way I don't have too smell your lack of hygiene....
- trouble916, on 10/10/2007, -0/+1Who???? :)
- andythedead, on 10/10/2007, -0/+1I believe the penalty was just. McLaren clearly had and used Ferrari technical information illegally. If the penalty had banned the team or the drivers this season that would have resulted in Ferrari winning the championship. As a Ferrari fan I do not want them to win that way. It would have been tainted. With the two drivers keeping points it allows the competition to continue, and that could come down to the last race.
The argument has been made that it was one of Ferrari's own that betrayed them, so they are to blame. My question is "If your best friends wife spreads her legs open and invites you in and you have sex with her, are you not also at fault for the betrayal?" - Glansbourg, on 10/10/2007, -0/+1Conspiracies about not disqualifying them from the Drivers' as well?
- EvilWalksWithMe, on 10/10/2007, -0/+0Do you know what's really funny about all of this, Bernie is suggesting introducing Spec cars, Aero, and Handling packages in 2011. So ALL cars will be the same.
- tennisOK, on 10/10/2007, -1/+1the increase in Mclaren's performance after the first couple of races, ironically, is related to the spygate saga. Mclaren were tipped off, by Nigel Stepney, a Ferrari employee that Ferrari were running some legally questionable parts. Mclaren then queired the legality of these parts (aerodynamic parts) with the FIA, who clarified the ruling. Ironically, this whole episodes stems from the fact that Ferrari themselves were running illegal cars in the first two races...
- jasidog, on 10/10/2007, -0/+0The reason The drivers escaped unpunished as far as I can make out. Is that they were offered immunity from any penalty if they came forward to provide asked for evidence. They were told that if any pertaining evidence came to light in future the punishment would be severe.
That seems to be the email excerpts between Alonso and De La Rosa in the press today. Those do seem to show that People other than Coughlan had info i the McLaren team and made use of it.
I think the offer of immunity was more likely because even the FIA didn't want the drivers championship people have been watching (Pretty much the only interest this year with McLaren's dominance.) ruined. They want people to keep watching and interest to remain high. - tennisOK, on 10/10/2007, -0/+0Thus far we haven't seen any evidence that the team, the cars or the drivers benefitted in any way. There is a press release due later today. From what I can make out in the innuendo at this stage indicates that perhaps more people knew the information had been leaked (including Alonso and de la Rosa) than Mclaren originally acknowledged which is very different to actually benefitting from any IP.
Given there appears to be no Ferrari IP on the car (very unlikely given the totally different design characteristics of the car) it seems odd they have been punished in such a punitive fashion when you consider the case of Toyota, in 2004, who's engineers were successfully tried in a civil court for stealing IP, and who's 2004 car was an identical copy of Ferrari's 2003 car. That smacks of hypocrisy. - EvilWalksWithMe, on 10/10/2007, -0/+0They didn't decide the cars used were illegal or the IP was used to benifit the team. What they did decide, is that more McLaren staff were aware of the information than originally acknowledged. Hence why the TEAM was excluded from their championship but the drivers can still go for the drivers championship.
- ani625, on 10/10/2007, -1/+1It could have been MUCH worse for McLaren
- KrazyKoala, on 10/10/2007, -3/+3Well I lost you towards the end (I suppose the point) but thank you! Look, I'm a bit tired of the over-hyping of Ferrari when Formula 1 comes to Montreal but until people have actual evidence that Ferrari controls FIA, they should shut up. McLaren is completely guilty of spying and they were therefore punished. I find it a bit stupid that the drivers get immunity for testifying though. I think the fine should be lower but some points deducted from each driver if they drove cars enhanced knowing Ferrari's technology.
- tennisOK, on 10/13/2007, -0/+0Ferrari will never get excluded... given the things they've got away with in the past (illegal barge boards, manipulating Sauber team orders, ilegally selling IP to Sauber etc etc) it appears they are above the law.
-
Show 51 - 58 of 58 discussions
