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- peestandingup, on 11/29/2007, -1/+17"dont expect to see one in your neighborhood anytime soon; they will only be leased for three years to certain customers in Southern California, at a cost of $600 per month."
Hmm, seems like we've been down this road before (EV1). - smartmlp, on 11/29/2007, -4/+14This is basically a marketing move with the idea of working out the bugs in the process. There is no way we have anything remotely ready for sale of hydrogen in the US. I remember when Diesel trucks and cars were just starting to take off in the USA in the 80's. You could only find diesel at one or two stations out of 20 where I lived, it took a good 10-15 years until Diesel was available at most places, and even now its not every where. This also completely forgets the fact that most of the hydrogen will be generated from fossil fuels. A real shame.
- Oniony, on 11/29/2007, -0/+7I have seen this point raised many times and, whilst it is true, it does neglect the fact that hydrogen can be generated using energy from a variety of sources so there is the possibility that hydrogen *could* be generated without the need for fossil fuels. Compare this with a scenario in which we continue to use vehicles that only run on petroleum or diesel where there would be little scope for improvements. It may not be possible to viably produce hydrogen at the moment without producing a nuclear waste legacy but that does not mean that it will not become viable to harness geothermal, solar, tidal, wood-burning or wind power in the future. The ability to alter the sources used as we discover side-effects associated with various sources would also be a big boon.
- Y0tsuya, on 11/29/2007, -1/+7If coal gasification takes off, we wouldn't need to import petroleum. We have huuuuge deposits of that stuff.
- StuffMaster, on 11/29/2007, -1/+6I Don't Know How To Not Capitalize Every Word Please Help
- Weather, on 11/29/2007, -0/+5Thats because they aren't union shops. When you and the rest of the employees don't show up for work at a place like that because you disagree with something your fired, not on strike..
- Croaton, on 11/29/2007, -1/+6Perfected? It took the EV1 about 15 hours for a full recharge... thats far from perfected...
I'm myself working at a major car company in the hybrid development deparment. Hybrids/electric vehicles are getting there... but they are far from perfected due to technical restraints and packaging issues. - brufleth, on 11/29/2007, -2/+6Electrolysis of water is a very cost ineffective way of mass producing hydrogen. The energy density is pretty crappy too. You're probably better off with the battery powered car for the daily commute.
- jkoirjm, on 11/29/2007, -1/+5www.fcx.honda.com
- Weather, on 11/29/2007, -0/+4http://www.hydrogencarsnow.com/chevy-equinox-fuel- ...
- Weather, on 11/29/2007, -0/+3http://www.chevrolet.com/electriccar/
- ZenMojo, on 11/29/2007, -2/+5Petroleum-funded magazine ads claiming that hydrogen cars might just blow up and release radiation into the atmosphere despite no evidence showing it in 3...2...1....
- slashbot, on 11/29/2007, -0/+3This won't become main stream until the infrastructure for hydrogen fuel catches up.
Also won't be as environmentally friendly as it appears until we can find a cleaner way to obtain hydrogen. - aegis9975, on 11/29/2007, -1/+4The hydrogen-FCX has been available for lease from Honda since 2002 (the original FCX concept was shown in 1999); however this is the first time that a truly usable car is up for lease, moreover you can lease this car without a team of scientist following you around. Kudos to Honda, this car likely to hundreds of millions to bring to market and they won't be making money off of this, its an investment in future technology.
- apeweek, on 11/29/2007, -0/+3You may mean me, I have made several such posts. I am in favor of alternative fuels, it's just that Hydrogen is a scam, a diversion so we will stop thinking about electric cars. An FCV is an electric car, including batteries, with a hydrogen tank on top, so the petro companies will still have their hands in our pockets. Skip the hydrogen tank, get an EV. A battery electric car with the same driving range as an FCV will always weigh less, and cost less to fuel.
Ten-minute recharge batteries negate the only advantage hydrogen may have. See:
http://www.b2i.us/profiles/investor/ResLibraryView ... - Porch, on 11/29/2007, -1/+4http://world.honda.com/FuelCell/FCX/station/
Looks like the home station will also heat your water and power your house. It's still using dino gas, but at least it's not burning it and causing smog.
And solar is also an option.
Too bad it's going to taked 5-10 years for this to really hit the market and become a real option. - notoneofus, on 11/29/2007, -0/+3I'm not a huge GM fan, but many of the world's automakers use (or will soon use) GM hybrid tech.
http://www.businessweek.com/autos/content/nov2007/ ... - apeweek, on 11/29/2007, -0/+2Since an FCV is an electric car, why bother expending energy to make fuel when you could just be charging the electric vehicle's batteries directly? This inefficiency is at the heart of the problem with hydrogen vehicles. I would personally remove the heavy fuel cell and tank from this car and expand the battery pack. You may not realize this, but Li-ion batteries have a better power-to-weight ratio than all that expensive fuel cell equipment.
- falkonv7l, on 11/29/2007, -0/+2I feel like we have a lot of anti-hydrogen people in here.
- falkonv7l, on 11/29/2007, -0/+2The guys at Tesla are geniuses, I am considering leaving my current job to work at the soon to be built factory here in New Mexico. I would love to be part of that revolution too.
- mustang460, on 11/29/2007, -0/+2http://www.canadiandriver.com/articles/jk/020808.h ... -fuel cell focus from 2002
http://www.popularmechanics.com/blogs/automotive_n ... - ford HySeries Edge hydrogen fuel cell plugin hybrid vehicle - Porch, on 11/29/2007, -1/+3http://www.theenvironmentalblog.org/2007/11/honda- ...
http://jalopnik.com/cars/notag/the-best-way-to-ref ...
Looks like it comes wth a home filling station that uses natural gas. It may not be perfect, but it's a real large step in the right direction. - Richandler, on 11/29/2007, -1/+3They said they were doing this a long time ago. However I'd like to see exactly how it is going to be done. It would be quite a task. If I had the money I would buy one, but alas, I am a poor college student.
- heartcoldfusion, on 11/29/2007, -0/+2How are they bucking the Trend? BMW released a hydrogen powered 7 series last year...
Not that this technology is very viable, producing hydrogen at home is very expensive, energy wise. When solar power gets efficient enough to power electrolysis, that's a breakthrough... - Porch, on 11/29/2007, -1/+3I didn't say it was cost effective. The electrolysis process, assuming the power source is solar, can be 100% clean. Sure batteries are better, but they still have a range problem and so are not an option for people like me that drive a lot. None of this is cost effective yet, but it might be in the future.
What is worst? A process that is only 30% efficient but has no pollution, or something that is 90% efficient but pollutes? - reuscel, on 11/29/2007, -1/+3Awesome, I can fill it up at that hydrogen station down the stree.... wait a minute.
- inactive, on 11/29/2007, -0/+2sounds cool
- carcrazy, on 11/29/2007, -1/+3I don't even understand why this story was submitted. For $600 a month, and supposing you live in certain areas in California, you can lease a hydrogen Honda. It's called the FCX and is already being produced. Its limited availability is based mostly on the fact that there is not an adequate hydrogen infrastructure in most of the US.
- jbmcb, on 11/29/2007, -1/+3Hydrogen tech isn't quite there yet. It hasn't been fully road tested, and the infrastructure isn't in place yet. It's a gamble on Honda's part, and I'd rather not be a beta tester for them.
- FTLJohnson, on 11/29/2007, -2/+4Yes, that's what happens when, in the first 16 diggers, you have mostly users who have been on digg for more than a year with decent story submission rates, and a fairly high story popularity ratio. In this case... for example, Gr0ver has over 20% popular, and I didn't even bother look at all 16 profiles, so if that's a representation of more of the other first 16 diggers... Yeah... it gets promoted.
- jynweythek, on 12/31/2008, -0/+1Made popular 1 year 32 days ago
- jaymzx, on 11/29/2007, -0/+1One has to wonder if the hydrogen cars will be rounded up and crushed like the EV-1's after their 'proof of concept fleece lease' expires.
- brandonhines, on 11/29/2007, -0/+1In case you couldn't figure out what the story was about from the title the description is here to save the day.
- GSnake, on 12/07/2007, -0/+1The only issues with 'hydrogen' powered vehicles at the moment is the relative inefficiency for the costs, and the fact that gas stations don't store hydrogen, at least not very many of them. All of the fuel companies would have to restructure their entire system to fit stations with hydrogen pumps, which is a massive cost/investment.
Maybe by 2015-2020 we'll start to see more tangible results when it comes to Hydrogen fueled cars. My guess is a country in Europe will mandate Hydrogen at all licensed gas stations, obviously setting a precedent. - apeweek, on 11/30/2007, -0/+1where would you get the electricity to make the hydrogen? Instead, use that electricity in your EV.
- inactive, on 11/30/2007, -0/+1Finally! some real progress..........
- FIREMILLEN, on 11/30/2007, -0/+1How are they bucking the trend? Ford, GM, BMW, and others are way ahead in this field. Sly marketing? I think so.
- Ghoztt, on 11/29/2007, -4/+5Screw that. I want my electric car that was already perfected back in freak'n 2000! Oh, but the car companies don't want us free from any type of fuel dependency...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Who_Killed_the_Electr ... - apeweek, on 11/29/2007, -0/+1Do not believe this spin. Hydrogen most definitely does not do better with size, weight, and range. An FCV is an electric car (including batteries) with a big heavy fuel cell and hydrogen tank on top. How could this possibly be more efficient? The GM Sequel FCV, for instance, weighs nearly 5,000 pounds. Compare this to the Tesla electric car - it weighs half as much, and has close to the same driving range.
Quick fill-ups are possible with new battery technology, too. See this link:
http://www.b2i.us/profiles/investor/ResLibraryView ...
This is where the research money belongs. - apeweek, on 11/29/2007, -0/+1Try this - somebody converted a Honda to battery electric for just $5000:
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/1354 - apeweek, on 11/29/2007, -0/+1Here's the problem. You are trying to compare state-of-the-art fuel cells to 100-year-old battery tech. Let's talk about present day battery technology.
Li-ions (LiFePO4 is the type used for autos) are basically harmless environmentally, as the lithium is in salt form. Plus, all batteries are recyclable. (Altairnano has even called their batteries biodegradable.)
Newer lithium batteries such as Altairnanos have lifespans of 10 to 20 years, or 200,000 - 300,000 miles. That is the life of the car for most people. I don't think the 'great expense' exceeds that of the fuel cell hardware.
Newer batteries can be quickly refilled, too. 10 minutes for Altairnanos or A123 batteries. 5 minutes for supercapacitor technology. Here's a link to a public demonstration: http://www.b2i.us/profiles/investor/ResLibraryView ...
The weight argument won't save you either, as li-ion batteries have a better energy to weight ratio than the fuel cell apparatus. As I pointed out elsewhere here, the Tesla weighs about half what the GM Sequel FCV does, and gets about the same range. - apeweek, on 11/29/2007, -0/+1Okay, hydrogen is the most abundant element in the universe. So what. We live on Earth, and all the hydrogen here is chemically bound into water.
This is a very important point - basic physics, that many hydrogen cheerleaders don't get. Research is fine, but it will never change the laws of physics.
Is a big boulder a source of energy? Hydrogen is like a big, big boulder. If that boulder is perched at the top of a hill, it represents energy waiting to be harnessed. All we have to do is push it down the hill.
A boulder already at the bottom of a hill, however, is not a source of energy.
Hydrogen in water, already 'burned' , is the boulder at the bottom of the hill. If you use electrolysis to separate the hydrogen from the water, you are using the energy of the electricity to push the boulder up the hill.
The electricity made that happen, and that's all the energy available. You won't get more energy from the boulder than you spent pushing it up the hill. This is why hydrogen is not a fuel - the same reason a boulder isn't fuel.
If I separated the parts of a battery and showed you the chemical components to you, would you declare them to be a wonderful source of limitless energy? Because that's what hydrogen proponents are doing. They think we're not smart enough to know better. Unfortunately, they are right.
Incidentally, you are an EV 'fanboy' too, since that's what an FCV is. I actually think hydrogen fuel cells are cool, but research money belongs with promising new battery technology, not inefficient and expensive stunts like this. - 3rumoneisa, on 11/29/2007, -0/+1Nice if I can get it for under 6000...
- CelebVoy, on 11/29/2007, -1/+2Yes, but the EV1 was a good idea. Lets see how much farther this ridiculous stunt will go seeing that it is a far worse solution to the energy (and pocketbook) problems.
I see that GM could have probably saved a good part of our economy if they would have pioneered and mass produced the EV1 and transferred technology to other american companies. - apeweek, on 11/29/2007, -0/+1Hydrogen is nothing more than a battery - electricity plus water makes hydrogen. When the hydrogen is used, you get water and electricity back out. This is a reversible chemical process, in other words, a battery.
So any argument you make for hydrogen can be made for a battery, too. Except that every battery technology out there is more energy efficient than hydrogen. If a polluting energy source is used to make electricity, the hydrogen vehicle will be responsible for more pollution than the EV.
The range argument is moot. Any FCV will weigh more than a battery EV with the same range. - apeweek, on 11/29/2007, -0/+1By now, if the EV1 had lived, it would have 10-minute recharge batteries like these:
http://www.b2i.us/profiles/investor/ResLibraryView ... - falkonv7l, on 11/29/2007, -1/+1Good reply, I do agree, in the fact that EVs are the way to go right now, but I do believe we can not ignore the most abundant resource on the planet. EVs need to be our first step go get off of directly paying the "Big OIL" guys but the energy still comes from somewhere, thus I believe in keeping our hands deep in Solar, Hydrogen, and all other "greener" techs.
- KiwiEV, on 02/12/2008, -0/+0While I'm primarily an electric car fan, it's good to see Hydrogen cars receiving attention. At the very least it creates a good public awareness about heavy pollution from cars.
Anyone know what hydrogen costs at the pump? No one seems to mention it anywhere & I have no idea. - Gen1, on 11/30/2007, -0/+0Why Do You Like To Capitalize Every Word, It's Really Annoying.
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