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- estvir, on 10/12/2007, -24/+172It's great to see someone who has a good understanding of memory usage, and who is able to write an easy-to-undertand article has done so, hopefully this will stop all the 'LOL VISTA IS A M$ M3MORY h0GG!1!!11shiftone' comments. So, what's left to be debunked ? The price, memory hog, DRM problems, metadata problems, etc have been.
Here are 2 other interesting articles about memory usage in Vista vs OS X:
http://blogs.zdnet.com/Ratcliffe/?p=266
http://blogs.zdnet.com/Ratcliffe/?p=267 - benitojuarez, on 10/12/2007, -38/+157all the app£e and linux fanboys are going to be pissed when they find out this article isnt saying anything bad about vista.
- Evoguy, on 10/12/2007, -28/+103I'm going to start blocking everyone who refers to Microsoft as M$. Obviously you're not capable of mature, rational thought, so you probably have nothing valid to say anyway.
http://img116.exs.cx/img116/9551/20020722l1hh.gif - JeffH, on 10/12/2007, -7/+76Yup. It's funny to see people saying; "zomg Vista uses 600Mb of RAM on startup lololololo".
Microsoft just learned what *nix has known for years, free RAM is wasted RAM. - schoate09, on 10/12/2007, -11/+71Why does everything on this site have to come back to OS X? Seriously, my memory is better used than free, I'd rather the OS use it than leave it. It makes space when another app opens anyway.
- benitojuarez, on 10/12/2007, -9/+61Case in point bbrosemer obviously didnt read the article.
- yournamehere, on 10/12/2007, -11/+60moore,
your friend is an idiot and you can't be too far behind.
case in point, positional audio: i assume you are talking about creative cards? they have a beta driver out right now that solves this issue by going through OpenAL. your 'friend' can download it and it will work.
as for SLI, if he/she/it has a 8800 card it will work with the latest drivers. if not the driver is forthcoming and is not the fault of Vista. Nvidia has had a slow showing with Vista and driver compatibility. Haven't you read the news anywhere? New drivers with SLI for all Nvidia chipsets should be out soon, the OS is only a few weeks old.. give it a break. XP had the same issues when it first came out and look at it now.
now, if your retort is that either you or your friend is non technical i would counter with 'then why did you install vista before even the first service pack was out?' that's like buying a new model of a car the first time out. - TheG2, on 10/12/2007, -12/+56@moore
I don't exactly know which programs your refering too..but every single one of my programs, from graphic design and development, to gaming and general use programs work fine. Lets face it, you have no idea what your talking about. - JeffH, on 10/12/2007, -8/+50Hence why I said *nix has been doing it for years.
Is it just me or do the majority of Apple users seem to be ignorant to the fact that OSX is just a Unix OS with a some (major) APIs added? - estvir, on 10/12/2007, -4/+45me100, err, if you had RTFA you would know that the memory is being used by the OS for your applications.
And your joke wasn't funny. - Yoweigh, on 10/12/2007, -5/+43To elaborate:
Windows Vista always eats all your ram. It loads as much into memory as it possibly can, then dynamically releases portions of that to free up space for your applications as they load. That's a good thing, BTW. - TheG2, on 10/12/2007, -4/+34@moore
Really, no sound? Because I worked in Flash for the last week and didn't have a single problem.
Audio and Video wise, thats the fault of the manufacturer and not Vista or Microsoft. - schoate09, on 10/12/2007, -4/+27Not to mention the OS gives it to the apps when they open.
- gcnaddict, on 10/12/2007, -12/+35I'm going to block you for implying that I'm intolerant of others. How dare you.
- redalienzero, on 10/12/2007, -5/+26Question: Why does Vista "hog" all of your memory?
Answer: Cuz it Can Can Can! Cuz it Can Can Can Can Can Can! *music melody*
And when other stuff needs it... it gladly yields the required memory for the programs that require it. So calm down Apple fan boys... no bad news to make you feel better about the fact that you have a Mac. - mateo60, on 10/12/2007, -4/+24Apple Fanboy here. I'm digging this article.
- inactive, on 10/12/2007, -4/+24Hmm. This is exactly how Linux handles memory. Example, my current memory status:
total used free shared buffers cached
Mem: 1265 623 641 0 113 165
-/+ buffers/cache: 343 921
Swap: 1529 19 1510
So its got 343 megs in use as cache, and 921 reserved for cache.
Its a good thing Windows finally does this too. Shouldave always worked like that.
Edit: damn, the columns dont line up nicely..sorry bout that - AssKoala, on 10/12/2007, -4/+23@ MrAuer
Not quite, no. Linux does use the extra memory as a disk cache, but not in the same way as superfetch.
This is a book I found off of linux-mm.org that describes the Linux Memory Management model.
http://www.phptr.com/content/images/0131453483/downloads/gorman_book.pdf
The gentoo forum post referenced later in the comments by JoeUser, http://forums.gentoo.org/viewtopic.php?t=175419 , properly describes things, but the way the disk caching works in Linux is very similar to how it worked in XP, 2000, etc. The SuperFetch process uses various, significantly more advanced heuristics to decide what to stick in the extra memory and is far more than just a disk cache.
Don't simply assume that because Linux (or Solaris, or OS X, or BeOS, or whatever) is using some amount of memory that it works the same as other Operating Systems. - totorototoro, on 10/12/2007, -3/+22If I bought 2 Gigs of RAM, I definitely want it being used at all times-no use just sitting around :p
- stephenwq, on 10/12/2007, -2/+20Hooray, a fanboy that isn't an asshat.
Though it seems you are one in a million... - insovietrussia, on 10/12/2007, -2/+19I would just like to add that I am finding this discussion quite tolerable.
- tpink, on 10/12/2007, -5/+22I like that idea. How about the percentage of RAM unused multiplied by the price you paid for your RAM so you can see how much money you're wasting not using it.
- Odweaver, on 10/12/2007, -6/+23Memory hog or not there is still a noticeable decrease in performance even when it is in windows classic mode rather than Aero, and thats at minimal processes running (core essentials, windows defender and such disabled).
- JeffH, on 10/12/2007, -3/+20Gratz. Maybe you should have read the article where it informs people like you that using less RAM just means you have wasted money inside of your PC case, and that having your RAM completely filled and the OS being able to dynamically assign RAM usage for the best in real time actually increases performance.
- CBTF, on 10/12/2007, -3/+18If MS didn't do something like this, you'd probably criticize that. They do, and you pick on that as well.
- Evoguy, on 10/12/2007, -7/+22There's no difference between the "os" and "applications" unless you're talking about the kernel vs. every other process that runs. The kernel is the only thing that takes dedicated memory on your system (usually in the 10's of megs), outside of that, every process be it part of vista, or some 3rd party app, is an "application" and treated equally with regard to memory management. If you say something like.. "I'd rather have my memory used by applications than by the OS", you're a moron, and understand nothing about computers.
- Ignignokt01, on 10/12/2007, -5/+19Eoxx. This article isn't about Vista's different approach of managing memory being BAD, its about it being different. I actually think this is a great idea. What's wrong with using the memory you paid for all the time if it makes the OS overall much quicker?
- TheStooge1, on 10/12/2007, -4/+16Again, Why can't you morons READ THE ARTICLE before you post? "Precious resources"????? You think that your "precious resource" would be better suited just sitting idle and completely unused just so you can say your os doesn't use the $500 in RAM you just paid for rather than being used to it's fullest?
Digg needs a moron meter whereby if you are considered a moron, you can't post comments. - inactive, on 10/12/2007, -5/+17And yes, its a great thing it (Vista) uses memory like this. Why waste good memory, sitting there empty and unused, when it could be used to speed up your computers functioning by using it as cache...As I said, Linux/Unix does this too.
(krhm, guess where MS got the idea from...) - trogdoor, on 10/12/2007, -2/+14Unused Memory is wasted memory, the ironic thing is that the same FUD that is now being used against Vista has been used against Linux for a long time ( Yes, people accused Linux of all things of being a memory hog for making good use of all available memory ), just goes to show, FUD is FUD no matter who it's aimed at.
- Iam8up, on 10/12/2007, -6/+18You took the words right off of my fingers!
I just don't see the complication in understanding this. Use the memory you have - what is the point of "tweaking" your OS so that it uses less memory. Memory is significantly faster then your hard drive people. Read the article before you...as one put it...
Yup. It's funny to see people saying; "zomg Vista uses 600Mb of RAM on startup lololololo". - Merath, on 10/12/2007, -0/+11They copied it from Xerox? How ironic...
- Ignignokt01, on 10/12/2007, -3/+13Wow, jrieth50, you're an idiot.
Hehe, yeah, Microsoft definitely didn't make this feature ON PURPOSE. I mean they can't possibly ever make a GOOD feature, amiright?
/SARCASM - trogdoor, on 10/12/2007, -2/+12Seriously, RTFA.
- EtherGnat, on 10/12/2007, -3/+12"Download your copy for free right now at http://ubuntu.com . You won't have to worry about DRM or memory issues. "
And what, pray tell, will I be able to do on Ubuntu that DRM will prevent me from doing on Vista? Play HD-DVDs and Blu-ray discs at full resolution? Nope, can't play them at all. Hell, even MP3s and DVDs can be difficult to set up and legally questionable. DRM is a really great reason not to buy protected media, but it's a really awful reason to switch to Linux. - dgr814vr, on 10/12/2007, -0/+9@jrieth
Memory Utilisation and Power. Once the Ram is plugged in it uses the same amount of Power. Random Access Means it is ready all the Time.
Power Utilisation curves do not change wether memory is full or free. - duotronic, on 10/12/2007, -3/+12The Vista kernel is designed to use all memory so that applications open quickly.
Anand does a great job explaining it.
http://www.anandtech.com/systems/showdoc.aspx?i=2917&p=2
I find it makes Vista snappy. :) - DarknessGP, on 10/12/2007, -3/+12You do know that Apple stole the graphics interface from Xerox right? And Microsoft stole it from Apple... Who cares if it is copied, at least this way a majority of the people will actually get to see it and use it. (i.e. the business world)
- MrTea, on 10/12/2007, -4/+12Hasn't the linux kernel been doing this for a long ass time already?
- Ngai, on 10/12/2007, -1/+9Sure here ya go,
http://thelastcloud.com/Desktop%20Background.bmp
its 3.51mb..
@JeffH
Trust me, this computer is very fast. - trogdoor, on 10/12/2007, -2/+10"I have 2GB of RAM as well, and have NEVER gone over 1.25GB of RAM even with 30 Firefox Tabs open, Trillian, Opera, Thunderbird, and a full screen game like CS:S."
You say this as if it were a good thing, if you had actually read / understood the article you would realize that it simply means that your 2GB of RAM are being wasted.
Maybe that screenshot was taken shortly after boot when there wasn't much to cache, I don't know, but that is completely irrelevant as you don't even understand that the author is NOT trying to bash Windows. - CBTF, on 10/12/2007, -0/+7"Does it matter to you at all that the only thing that would be more off topic than your advert would be a Family Guy quote?"
Giggity giggity! - masamunecyrus, on 10/12/2007, -1/+8Google Cache caught it (does duggmirror get anything, anymore?):
http://72.14.209.104/search?hs=sUq&hl=en&lr=&c2coff=1&q=cache%3Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.codinghorror.com%2Fblog%2Farchives%2F000688.html&btnG=Search
Though Google Cache kept loading forever for me, despite the whole page being downloaded if I hit View>Source, but Google's text-only Cache got it, too:
http://72.14.209.104/search?q=cache:http://www.codinghorror.com/blog/archives/000688.html&hl=en&lr=&c2coff=1&sa=G&strip=1 - Evoguy, on 10/12/2007, -3/+10If Vista wants to use every single free MB of RAM on my computer for prefetch, more power to it. In the case of a single game engine allocating vast amounts of memory, most engines I've written, and most I've seen, allocate everything they can at load time, and stream the rest in as needed. Overall, they stay at a relatively constant amount of memory allocation (namely, as much as they can get away with). In this scenario, prefetch won't have any negative effect, since freed pages are reallocated by the engine right away. If the engine is doing something weird like allocating and freeing massive blocks of memory, somewhat randomly, so it's entire memory footprint is constantly changing, I can see how prefetch would be a problem. I am sure it's possible to work around that though, and if it hasn't been figured out yet, it will be soon.. I'm sure that was something they considered it its design.
- r3zonance, on 10/12/2007, -0/+7"it's not exactly very energy conscience to constantly be using and swapping data to and from all 4 gigs of memory, its just wasted mem time, HD time (the data has to come from somewhere,) and CPU cycles to manage it all."
Well me being a Apple Mac fan I'm going to say this. Vista makes numerous power-savings all over the place, and I think 2GB of RAM always has to refresh the full 2GB RAM (on their charge cycle time), so it makes no difference how much is used. A bit of extra hard disk for swapping is hardly anything to the constant thrashing that used to happen under Windows XP when the system would become unresponsive for a short amount of time while it clears down the massive "commit charge" it's built up on the page file. - chiklit, on 10/12/2007, -0/+7@saska
If you go into Settings > Preferences > Video > Output Modules and enable advanced settings. Then set it to the OpenGL output module then it won't disable Aero every time it tries to play a video. - Merath, on 10/12/2007, -2/+8Firefox is allowed the memory and windows removes unneeded things form memory.
Seriously if it isn't a problem for linux/OSX then its not one here... They're doing the same thing... - inactive, on 10/12/2007, -3/+9Yeah, 'cause writing "M$" is VERY mature...
- geronimo, on 10/12/2007, -1/+7Linux used to not do this well. You would see it using 90% of its memory for cache and buffers then it would swap. That drove me up the wall to put it mildly but that is no longer a problem. The question Vista users should ask is if this situation is handled well - does it dip into swap when it shouldn't? In linux you can tune this with /proc/sys/vm/swappiness. Setting it to 100 will swap out your bloated app quickly, leaving room for cache/buffers. but swapping in will be slow. If you have a lot of memory, set it lower so you dedicate memory to processes, possibly making it faster since you won't have to page in. Linux at this point is very mature in this regard, this kinda stuff isn't easy to get right.
- r3zonance, on 10/12/2007, -3/+9Yes, but you are missing the point. Vista has "a radically different approach to memory management (compared to any previous versions of Windows)". I suppose the memory that is allocated (but available) is equivalent to the "Unwired Memory" on the Macintosh, as in it's set aside, but not tied to any application.
Being an Apple fan myself, you still have to give MS credit where it due. They have seen something here that will greatly benefit the 90%+ of the market and have implemented it for the greater good of the consumer. I for one would have been screaming if they'd have left it the way it was.
Also, them implementing ReadyBoost and ReadyDrive will pave the way for these hardware features (hybrid hard disks and faster and more reliable USB Thumbdrives) to be usable in the other favourite operating systems (Linux/OS X). It certainly won't be long before Linux has a "ReadyBoost" equivalent (if it hasn't already got one). We don't like to admit it, but if these things hadn't been implemented by Microsoft, they would never have seen the light of day. ReadyBoost/Drive, in effect, is a good way to give back to the OSes that they have borrowed from.
I am not looking to start a "who copied what" war with that last comment, so don't even bother. -
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