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Microsoft Launches New Web Site for Beginner Developers

msdn.microsoft.com — The Beginner Developer Learning Center (BDLC) is a free, one-stop shop for learning Windows and Web programing fundamentals. It includes a learning path which starts with the absolute basics like how a Web browser works and builds on that with videos, tutorials, and downloadable sample projects using CSS, JavaScript, HTML, ASP.NET, VB, and C#.

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  • byronm, on 10/12/2007, -7/+55I think they learned from the XNA folks people like to be creative if they're given the tools. This is great news and look forward to seeing what happens. No longer pay to play.
    • tehwaht, on 10/12/2007, -7/+21There has been a need for something like this for a while... cool
    • aplardi, on 10/12/2007, -18/+71I'm saying this as a Mac user typing it on his Mac Mini with his Apple Keyboard (and for some reason a Dell mouse because who wants to pay that much money for an Apple Mighty Mouse), fondling his Apple Remote and swooning over his Apple iPods shiny metal backing and pristine white look, all while making out with what I wish was an Apple Display:

      Stinking. Awesome.

      GO MICROSOFT!
    • KWhat, on 10/12/2007, -26/+11Get them when there young... cigarette anyone?
    • RichesToRags, on 10/12/2007, -29/+5"swooning over his Apple iPods shiny metal backing and pristine white look"

      Pristine?? The Ipod has theeee most scratch fragile casing on the market. You must have left it in its cradle from day one.
    • Ngai, on 10/12/2007, -22/+3This will definitely help learn something new.
    • latova, on 10/12/2007, -31/+9Lets go all give them some more vendor lock in and further their already huge monopoly.

      Why make billions when we could make... trillions?

      GO MICROSOFT!
    • jer2eydevil88, on 10/12/2007, -4/+18I am really impressed with what this website promises to do for kids and improving their abilities in programming. Microsoft usually plays follow the leader, with a quick round of overthrowing the leader, this proves they can put out great original services/products.
    • mlwarrior, on 10/12/2007, -24/+1The studios w/ built in compilers aren't free, though. Also, I agree this is cool, but isn't documentation on a lot of java free?
    • KaneElson, on 10/12/2007, -1/+24mlwarrior, microsoft provide express editions of visual studio for a few languages.
    • RedLion, on 10/12/2007, -9/+8mlwarrior: the express versions of visual studio are free or there is still Eclipse (opensource IDE written in Java) if you are not interested in .NET programming.
    • sotopheavy, on 10/12/2007, -1/+11My initial reaction to this is a strongly positive one. I have been wanting to create meaningful windows and web applications for some time now but I had no idea where to start. I have taken advanced classes in several object oriented programming languages, but I only programmed for the command prompt.

      I congratulate Microsoft in what seems to be a non-selfish non-evil project that will both make their products more enticing and strongly benefit their windows customers and developers. I will be testing this out over the next few weeks as I am sure many other motivated programmers will as well.
    • janne1, on 10/12/2007, -9/+1Except that if you want to use software other than microsoft's, look elsewhere.
    • MioTheGreat, on 10/12/2007, -1/+6"The studios w/ built in compilers aren't free, though."

      Visual C++ Express edition contains the FULL 32-bit MSVC++ compiler....The C# and VB.NET compilers are included with every installation of the .NET Framework (Go on, check your c:windowsmicrosoft.netframeworkversion folder, csc.exe, and vbc.exe are there.), And, of course, the express editions for c# and vb.net are free, which are pretty good IDEs.
    • ABadInAlbany, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3I don't think this is just targeted at kids. We have some COBOL/etc. mainframe programmers here who are moving into .NET, I just pointed them at the site, I think it's perfect for people coming from other technologies as much as it is for a complete newb.
    • mahdaeng, on 10/12/2007, -1/+1@sotopheavy

      [[I congratulate Microsoft in what seems to be a non-selfish non-evil project that will both make their products more enticing and strongly benefit their windows customers and developers.]]

      not necessarily "non-selfish". as you yourself point out, this simply makes ms products "more enticing".

      that said, i still think it's a great thing for ms to do - selfish or not.
    • danielfe, on 10/12/2007, -0/+8@byronm "I think they learned from the XNA folks..."

      We actually launched Visual Studio Express, our tools for beginners and hobbyists in November 2005, XNA didn't release until December 2006. In fact XNA Game Studio Express is an add-on to Visual C# Express and the XNA Framework originated as a modified version of the Compact Framwork (devices).

      You're right though, we do work together and learn from each other quite a bit, and it's not just XNA, there's a Hobbyist Renaissance going on at Microsoft with everything from operating systems (Windows Home Server) to games (XNA) to Robotics (Robotics Studio) and more:
      http://blogs.msdn.com/danielfe/archive/2006/08/10/694715.aspx
    • PleaseJustDie, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2Wow this seriously impresses me, I'm absolutely shocked and awed that microsoft spent this much time to do this.
  • ihaveplans, on 10/12/2007, -56/+9Anyone using ASP.Net is a beginner developer by nature.
    • InsaneShow, on 10/12/2007, -12/+23Baby steps . . . you have to start somewhere.
    • joshman5k, on 10/12/2007, -2/+16What is wrong with ASP.NET?
      I find it is great if you are integrating with a pre-existing .NET Information System.
    • Cirieno, on 10/12/2007, -2/+17Seriously, don't be a douche. "My-language-is-better-than-your-language" arguments are boring. Live and let live? If software doesn't live up to the hype, you're free to program in your own favoured language. Viva democracy.
    • jdstorer2, on 10/12/2007, -3/+7You're very much mis-informed. ASP.NET is just as good as other tools out there. It's IIS that's usually the problem. And even that's not so bad if you know what you're doing.
    • codmate, on 10/12/2007, -1/+10That comment proves that you are a novice.

      You have to work in the environment you are given.
      I edited Perl in VI for years.

      Now I've switched jobs and my working environment has changed.
      I'm working in SQL and VBscript all of a sudden.

      It gets the job done - and, although I miss a lot of Perl stuff, oop is actually a lot better than in Perl (where it is a real hack)...
    • DieselDaddy, on 10/12/2007, -0/+21@ihaveplans

      Have you ever used it? ASP.net is a framework - a collection of controls and modules. ASP.net coupled with C# (a modern OO language - in case you didn't know) is an incredibly productive and relevant technology stack. Throw in what is arguably the best IDE out there (Visual Studio 2005) and you have something that most definitely transcends the "novice" tag you so arrogantly placed on its users.

      I'm an IT manager/Systems Architect. In my area its almost impossible to find .net people because as soon as their resume hits the street they are immediately gobbled up by the consultancies and companies in the area. .net is in a HUGE demand right now. However, I do have an abundance of Java resumes - they don't seem to be moving at all. Not sure what that means for Java and corporate America's commitment to it.
    • ABadInAlbany, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2@DieselDaddy: I'd be curious to know what area you're in. I'm a .NET Software Engineer myself, in the Albany, NY area ... where, probably thanks to the state, Java is still in high demand, though the balance is shifting, if slowly, towards .NET. The past nine years I spent in Rochester ... Xerox is almost all .NET, IBM was a mix when I was there five years ago, Global Crossing was a mix, also five years ago. I get recruiters calling me from NYC all the time about .NET, though I know a lot of Java guys down there too -- a high school buddy is a VP at Goldman Sachs, where it's all Java, all the time.
    • sritzhaupt, on 10/12/2007, -1/+1I agree the language does not matter as much as the design and the ability to create a solution logically. Programming is more about thinking and the languages are just the tools.
    • posure, on 10/12/2007, -1/+1This guy obviously doesn't know anything about web development...ASP.net is a pretty good technology. I have a tendency to use it for most of my freelance work (if for nothing else, the availability of great third party libraries which don't exist on any other platform and are extremely useful for commercial development) and I use PHP or Ruby for my personal stuff. I'm not the biggest fan of how ASP.net is organized, but its getting better in each release.
    • DieselDaddy, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1@abadinalbany

      Ohio and Western PA. Progressive Insurance has a very aggressive .net transformation underway in North East Ohio. They are rebuilding their entire policy processing system on the .net stack (moving away from mainframe).
  • BigBaRay, on 10/12/2007, -29/+3Desperate. But not serious.
  • xabstract, on 10/12/2007, -8/+22"The Kid's Corner makes learning to program fun for kids!"

    Apple never cared about my kids!
    • westoncampbell, on 10/12/2007, -10/+16My 10 year old brother could care less about learning to program, while I ,on the other hand, am very interested... His loss.
    • funvin, on 10/12/2007, -2/+1Ofcourse they care about your kid. Why else they make ipod?
  • pamon, on 10/12/2007, -13/+19hey... everyone's not CSS HTML Java programmers. It's a good start w/ fundamentals. Good job MSFT.
    • praisethelard, on 06/06/2008, -8/+66OMG you just called CSS AND HTML PROGRAMMING LANGUAGES!!!1

      i'm so MAD i just ***** my pants!!
    • chris9902, on 10/12/2007, -1/+12HTML makes you a 1337 Hax0r
    • Atomic1fire, on 10/12/2007, -1/+2Im thinking about responding to that with a qoute from white and nerdy
      but wont
  • Rooker156, on 10/12/2007, -6/+9I really like this idea. I mean, kids should learn to program, I personally regret not starting sooner; if giant Microsoft is providing it, maybe it will be more readily adopted into the classroom. Just a thought.
  • undersky, on 10/12/2007, -4/+6no wonder i got an error page yesterday trying to download VB express. I guess they were changing the site.
  • reddevil3, on 10/12/2007, -12/+13I'm a beginner web developer (mostly focusing on programming, not CSS/design) and I think PHP is excellent for web programming, because it ties into HTML wonderfully.

    One thing I realized was how bad IE is when it comes to rendering even really simple pages. (I know, I know...most Digg geniuses already know that). I had a page with simple white text (with a greyish background) and for some ***** reason it came out black on IE.
    • NanoStuff, on 10/12/2007, -26/+6"I think PHP is excellent for web programming"

      Just like visual basic is excellent for desktop applications.
    • reddevil3, on 10/12/2007, -6/+9I'm not saying my opinion is the right one, I'm just saying I like using PHP (Compared to Perl and Python for example). I'm just a beginner anyway, I'm sure other diggers know much more about web development.
    • drilldown, on 10/12/2007, -7/+2People should really learn to lighten up, or accept relegating the world to uneducated savages. Educated savages become thoughtful communities through time and effort. Mostly communication and education, though.

      I never thought I'd see a M$ "Developer Stuff" folder in my Netscape browser. Times change.
    • Teaboy, on 10/12/2007, -1/+3If PHP was bad then digg wouldn't work so well. And the problem with IE that you described was probably your fault ;)
    • Atomic1fire, on 10/12/2007, -2/+1digg must realy suck at being a website then
      because everyone knows that php is so terrible
      only almost everyone uses it (digg, phpbb, phpnuke, drupal, wordpress. mediawiki(as in the wikipedia ),)
      could it be uh them php guys must be on to something for $500000000
      if thats what you thought
      ding you win (in entirely fictional money of course)
  • smhill, on 10/12/2007, -19/+7Microsoft is nothing if not consistent.
    http://msdn.microsoft.com/vstudio/express/beginner/web/tier1/css/

    The page on CSS is screwed up in both Safari and FF!
  • Rikkochet, on 10/12/2007, -9/+14Wow, finally.

    I'll definitely be using this resource and I'm a software developer. Far too often you find yourself frustrated learning a new technology because there's no good bridging material.
    • NanoStuff, on 10/12/2007, -15/+7"I'll definitely be using this resource and I'm a software developer"

      Are you sure you're not one of those HTML 'developers' that tells people they're a software developer?

      Here:

      http://developer.mozilla.org/
      http://www-128.ibm.com/developerworks/web
      http://www.oreilly.com/
    • smhill, on 10/12/2007, -10/+4?

      There is tons of material out there on just about any technology you want to learn. True, the VB/.NET/ASP crap is less than the open source stuff, but still, it is out there. If you can't find it you aren't looking hard enough. I have a hard time believing a real software developer finds this beginner stuff of any value.
  • NanoStuff, on 10/12/2007, -16/+9The prospect of vast numbers of fresh web developers being 'educated' by microsoft sends shivers down my spine. I hope I'll never have to work with any of them.
    • Fartag, on 10/12/2007, -7/+2Hey who wouldn't want to be educated by a monopoly corporation whose interest is in maintaining their position in the marketplace to the detriment of everything else? That sure sounds like a great and balanced source of information to learn from when you're starting out! *BARF*

      Anyway, please take the info from their site with a huge grain of salt or continually seek other sources, seasoned developers hate fighting zombies from fundamentalist educational backgrounds.
    • d03boy, on 10/12/2007, -5/+2Have any examples of your extravagant programs?
    • DieselDaddy, on 10/12/2007, -3/+2The feeling is mutual.
  • diggerphelps, on 10/12/2007, -15/+26Wow, it's almost as if http://www.w3schools.com/ never existed!
    • KaneElson, on 10/12/2007, -3/+20W3Schools is god when it comes to looking up syntax for a particular CSS property or whatever but for actual tutorials I found it quite painfull.
    • RedLion, on 10/12/2007, -3/+11the page does not only have tutorials for web development but also for windows development.
      you can find js/css tutorials almost everywhere, not only w3cschools, but if we're talking about windows applications development MSDN is the best resource available.
    • smhill, on 10/12/2007, -6/+4The best development resource on the planet is google.com. Half the time you can get quick answers right in the summaries without even having to follow a link. I heart Google.
    • KaneElson, on 10/12/2007, -5/+2I think you mean they PLAN to have more than web development.
      At the moment there are just pages telling you that 1024 bytes is a Megabyte
    • ScottMitchell, on 10/12/2007, -1/+8+1 for Google as the ultimate resource. And if you do Microsoft development all day (like yours truly), the Google Microsoft search page is helpful:
      http://www.google.com/microsoft.html
    • subgeniusd, on 10/12/2007, -5/+7How sad that Google searches MSFT better then MS Live Search searches MSFT.
  • KaneElson, on 10/12/2007, -10/+5Looking at the website I am going to have to disagree with the comments so far.
    I support Microsoft and I'm not badmouthing them but take for example the bits and bytes lesson ( http://msdn2.microsoft.com/en-us/library/bb330927(VS.80).aspx ),
    -It doesn't even show the comparison between an analog and digital wave, that simple diagram showing a sine wave against a square wave does wonders for understanding the difference.
    -They say " a KB is approximately 1000 bytes.", and then further down in the table they say a MB is 1024 bytes and a KB is 1,048,576 bytes
    -Appart from all that they don't even properly explain how 101 is 5 etc....

    I could list heaps of problems but I know they are just starting to write it... I just wish they would work hard on generate good content rather than rush into lots of content....
    • venom8599, on 10/12/2007, -8/+4Heh. Actually they list it wrong on the chart from that page.

      "
      Unit - Symbol - Number of bytes
      byte - - 2^0= 1
      megabyte - MB - 2ˆ10= 1024
      kilobyte - KB - 2ˆ20 = 1,048,576"
    • KaneElson, on 10/12/2007, -5/+4That is what I was saying, I know my comment wasn't very well set out or explained though. :(
  • GoingToShibuya, on 10/12/2007, -7/+6Does anyone know if there is something like this for the mac? I would love to learn how to create programs for the mac.
    • KaneElson, on 10/12/2007, -5/+8Just pick a language that sounds right for what you want to learn and start learning. Most of the C++ and definintly the java books will be platform independent, once you get into more complex things of course you will need to learn some platform dependent skills but untill then you can learn from a "general" book.
    • msgyrd, on 10/12/2007, -6/+5XCode also comes free with OSX (if it's not installed by default, it's free from Apple's developer site). XCode is kind of the Visual Studio equivilant for the Mac. OSX also comes with python and gcc installed by default, so you're pretty much set for tools to learn programming principles.

      As for a tutorial for it, I'd like to know also. In the past, I just sidestepped the issue with wxWidgets since it's cross platform.
    • newbill123, on 10/12/2007, -7/+3Apple publishes very good programmer documentation, but it's not very easy for novice programmers. It appears that Automator may make some logical, procedural programming more accessible if it continues to be improved in the future (beyond Tiger). But there aren't tutorials written at the totally new hobby programmer like Apple won awards for with their Applesoft Basic or Hypercard tutorials. (Hmm, maybe someone will write a web plugin for Applesoft Basic).

      But there are many good introductions to languages like Ruby, Python, Java, and Javascript out there. They don't make true Mac applications yet, but they are improving. Personally, I've found the Mac to be a good platform for learning.
    • smhill, on 10/12/2007, -7/+2http://developer.apple.com
      http://cocoadevcentral.com/

      The core data tutorials on cocoadevcentral are pretty slick.
    • mahdaeng, on 10/12/2007, -1/+0i agree with kaneelson.

      learning sound programming concepts is the best thing to do - in whatever language interests you. once you have those tools (e.g., best practices, algorithms, etc.) in your toolbox, you can get more specific for a particular platform and development environment.
    • dfltr, on 10/12/2007, -1/+1for osx development, try: http://www.google.com/search?q=cocoa+programming

      sorry i don't have a specific resource for you, i'm just a lowly web geek ;)
  • Cheeseness, on 10/12/2007, -11/+2"one-stop shop for learning bad Windows and Web programing fundamentals."

    The only thing I can think of is the hoards of //4d Visual Basic |-|4x0rz who reckon they're the Übërcödër just because they can write some function that can make a button move out of the way when someone puts the mouse near it.

    Now we can have another generation of ünskilled |-|4x0rz who can't appreciate real code, but at least they'll be consistent across development platforms.
    Huzzah.
    • venom8599, on 10/12/2007, -6/+15Notice they said fundamentals. Fundamentals don't make someone a good programmer, they teach the basics and concepts of programming. People have to start somewhere.
    • Cheeseness, on 10/12/2007, -13/+3Sure they did. My point is that the industry is going to be flooded by people who've learned nothing but these fundamentals and yet claim that they're experts.

      Given that this page here says that a megabyte is 1024 bytes, the those 'fundamentals' aren't really looking all that valuable for anyone who wants to learn something useful.
      http://msdn2.microsoft.com/en-us/library/bb330927(VS.80).aspx

      Fundamentals have a lot to do with becoming a good programmer, just like foundations have a lot to do with building a solid house.
  • rooskie, on 10/12/2007, -12/+5Learn web development from Microsoft?

    Sorry, I'm too busy taking Judaism lessons from Amidenijad
  • blcarmadillo, on 10/12/2007, -4/+10Another cool coding "how-to" website put out by Microsoft is http://msdn.microsoft.com/coding4fun/
    • KaneElson, on 10/12/2007, -7/+5Coding shouldn't be fun! It should have painfull syntax and no debuggers, garbage collectors or any of that other fancy crap !
    • Cheeseness, on 10/12/2007, -4/+7@kaneelson

      Sounds like INTERCAL is for you!
    • hypermatt, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1One of my favorite websites, hehe they actually have fun stuff to code ;)
  • TheBSG, on 10/12/2007, -11/+4Someone needs to tell Microsoft that they need to learn to crawl before they can walk. How can they teach people things like asp and .net framework when they don't even know how to meet basic HTML web standards in their browser? I'm really disturbed that Microsoft has yet to fix problems that were apparent in IE5, let alone in 7. I can only imagine that their higher levels of web development education is just as uneducated, or at least, non-complient.

    Either way, good for noobies! I know I would've liked to have had something like this.
    • Ravatar, on 10/12/2007, -5/+4The IE team and the .NET teams are VERY VERY SEPARATE ENTITIES. Don't judge one by the performance of the other.
    • fakeycakes, on 10/12/2007, -7/+0"The IE team and the .NET teams are VERY VERY SEPARATE ENTITIES. Don't judge one by the performance of the other."

      Don't be a chump. Regardless of the merits or detriments of .NET and IE, do you seriously think Microsoft wants the kinds of people it's targeting here - or any of its consumers for that matter - to see its brand as divided (and diluted) into lots of little segments some of which are better than others?

      Microsoft is in the business of doing *everything* as well as it can, it's just that other vendors and open source developers frequently come up with something better. And the end result should be that we have the choice not to go with IE or .NET or whatever, rather than engaging in undignified oneupmanship.

      For my part, I applaud Microsoft's attempts to provide resources so long as they're good. There can never be enough good (and usable unlike MSDN) resources. "Evolve," said Tyler Durden, "and let the chips fall where they may".
  • Hamsterpotpies, on 10/12/2007, -6/+6Cool thanks. Great way to get started in the programing field.
  • marvinmartian, on 10/12/2007, -8/+2Awesome!!!

    Now I get to learn how to code according non-universal standards!!!!
  • chungthomas, on 10/12/2007, -4/+3For all the bashing that Microsoft (or M$) has gone through all these years, they really deserve a kudos for their effort in introducing the younger generation to programming. I think programming at this stage is more than just programming, it is about developing logical thinking and many different other skills.

    While most of you may take this website for granted, but keep in mind that everyone has to start somewhere.

    I believe that for Linux to move out of that niche market (where it is perceived to be dominated mostly by "geeks"), I believe that the open-source community should also develop something similar in attracting more young developers. Remember while kids are learning how to program, Microsoft is also earning their share by forging this idea that Windows is a friendly OS for developing application. Whether it is true or not may be debatable, but what I am saying it, at least Windows got its share of exposure in these young minds. Linux can also follow this model by being more friendly with junior or newbie developers by giving them good introductions and supports in programming in Linux.
    • subgeniusd, on 10/12/2007, -1/+3Great points there except there is no "Linux" that corresponds to MSFT or Apple. Linux is a sprawling tribe of diverse clans and entities; uncoordinated and often feuding.

      I know some unification efforts have been started but we are years away from seeing any real world impacts from them.
    • xnacoder, on 10/12/2007, -2/+1This isn't the first attempt by MS to introduce programming to beginners/younger people. Microsoft's XNA was in fact intended to appeal to these same audiences, and they even went as far as to call it the "youtube of xbox programming."
  • mvent2, on 10/12/2007, -8/+4"ASP.NET, VB, and C#"

    Why not a cross-platform or standard language instead of the ones locked into one platform by one vendor? Something like Scheme or Java? That's what I learned in my beginner's programming course.
  • Stonekeeper, on 10/12/2007, -9/+2Oh great. More programmers who are unable to program.
    • fufubag, on 10/12/2007, -1/+3I don't think watching these tutorials would make anyone a "programmer". They would help them use a few tools, and show them what it's all about.

      People will learn what they need to. If they want a wizard to set up a form to enter info into a database using 'visual studio' then there is a tutorial here to show them how. If they want to use powerful languages to create powerful unique programs over various platforms, they obviously need more in-depth teaching/learning.
  • joshman5k, on 10/12/2007, -2/+8I really think those express editions are overlooked. There web developer one is great with auto complete web syntax and it is FREE!!!!
  • crackmonkey, on 10/12/2007, -10/+3asp.net provides hobby level controls for hobby level programmers with true abstraction for a price. Their entire asp.net framework is riddled with bloated Javascript and yet they didn't plan ahead for ajax at all. Missed that boat. Atlas Ha! Give me VI , php and firebug for firefox. Microsoft is bleeding out. They want drones to go work in cubicles who learn the IDE and not the code and are completely dependent on proprietary programs to write the code. That's the game.
    • thrstn, on 10/12/2007, -9/+1agreed!

      By the way.. that is the worst coded website I have seen in along time. And its made by a professional software company.

      ...or is it?
    • aliguana, on 10/12/2007, -1/+13actually, Microsoft have released the Ajax for .net framework:

      http://ajax.asp.net/
  • dogStar, on 10/12/2007, -8/+5It's like pushing cigarettes to kids. Get them hooked early and they won't know how to live without it.
    • aliguana, on 10/12/2007, -5/+3actually, thats true. Get MS Office into all the schools (hell, they give away Windows and Office to schools), and you'll have legions of kids entering the workplace knowing nothing except Word, Excel etc. And that suits business, who don't have to retrain their workforce, they get them already trained. 99% of the job vacancies i've seen in the last 5 years say "must know Word, Excel, Access". So then schools say "well, we have to teach these, cos thats what the workplace wants". So Microsoft is happy to oblige. Its a vicious circle.

      Even Apple can see this, which is why they're trying to get Macs into as many schools as possible. And why I think the stories on digg about "open source in schools" and "schools switching to Linux" is a good thing. If schools have the choice between Windows, OSX or Linux, maybe even mixing them all up (Windows in the English/Maths dept, Macs in the Art/Music dept, Linux in the computer dept) then thats better for our kids, better for the future workforce skills pool, better for everyone.
    • KrocCamen, on 10/12/2007, -6/+5Indeed, the last thing the web needs is yet more IE-only developers who can't function without Microsoft software.
  • rekka, on 10/12/2007, -6/+4MS launches another broken page teaching how to make webpages. Oh the irony.
  • Veritas77, on 10/12/2007, -10/+6Yay, just what we need. More "programmers" who can't function outside of a wizardy IDE and a framework that does all their work for them until they actually have to solve a real problem. Then they can't because they don't know what the ***** they're actually doing.

    Interviewing is hard enough these days, trying to wade through scads of morons that think their use of VB6 and/or .NET qualifies them to be real developers. M$ continues to lower the bar and flood the market with drag and drop mouth breathers.
    • aliguana, on 10/12/2007, -3/+10well, its unlikely that this site is aimed at those people. Its aimed at the grandad who wants to dabble with Visual Basic, or the kid who has never done anything like it but is interested. Its like there being a site saying "you start a html page with < html >" and then you saying "great, more morons who think they can write Rails scripts". Not really fair.

      (jeez, I can't believe I'm defending Microsoft, what is the world coming to? Need an Xcode session to clear my head)
    • Cheeseness, on 10/12/2007, -6/+3@aliguana

      That's exactly what happens. You get people who do this sort of thing and then call themselves experts.

      Veritas77 is saying (as I did above) that this will muddy up the industry, which will make it harder for employers to find appropriately skilled workers, and harder for those coders who know what they're doing to find a position that makes use of their skill set. It will do little more (for the industry) than let some spuds who think they're programming gurus set themselves up for failure and waste the time of employers looking for trained professionals.

      Just because we're getting dugg down for saying so doesn't make it any less likely to be what eventuates.
    • RedLion, on 10/12/2007, -0/+13so, according to you nobody should have access to basic programming knowledge just because there's a remote possibility that some random guy could believe that he knows anything just after reading a beginner tutorial or after buying a "programming for dummies book" ? great !
    • Cheeseness, on 10/12/2007, -1/+1If this beginner oriented stuff was actually imparting something useful (the first page I looked at had a horribly wrong byte conversion table), then maybe it'd be more positive.

      I believe that giving people access to too powerful tools before they're ready to understand exactly what they're doing is very detrimental to a learning experience.

      If you reckon you're a programmer and you can't code outside the IDE you learned with let alone without one altogether, then you've picked up a pretty useless, non-transferable skill set, and you'll realise that when you start bumping into the limitations of your preferred IDE.

      Based upon previous experiences with similar initiatives by Microsoft, I'm pretty certain that this is how it's going to turn out. And regardless of whether it's a good thing or a bad thing, it's going to make things that bit more difficult for the people trying to get somewhere in the industry.
  • fermion, on 10/12/2007, -5/+1Ooops - I had this huge post here about how this is just MS's normal baiting tactic to get people hooked on their software to keep the sales of Windows Server Vista 2011 up high.

    Please don't confuse this with MS being 'charitable', this is them acting in their own self interest.
  • artey, on 10/12/2007, -3/+1Its not mentioned anywhere how much would that pay for each message or whatever. It looks real, however, I'd like to know the details before I stop using Adium.
  • Vironex, on 10/12/2007, -4/+5What does Microsoft know about CSS?
    • DieselDaddy, on 10/12/2007, -2/+4Who cares?

      (besides the evangelical CSS zealots).
  • meshman, on 10/12/2007, -9/+2HAHAHA!!!!

    Ok, lemme tell you, based on Microsoft's Active Directory training, what the first assignment will be:

    Lesson 1:

    Create a multi-national e-commerce website with a back end written in C++ using MySQL as a data source. For the back end, create a 10 server cluster of MySQL boxes behind a multi-zone haardware firewall in a DMZ configuration. Also add a cluster of 25 Apache web servers with SSL certificates enabled. Register the following 75 domain names and set up internal DNS hosting on redundant connections on direct ethernet with full duplex bandwidth at 25mb/s.

    To begin, use our easy 3,987,398 step guide to studying the 3,000 page white papers on technology and design. It's not possible to read them separately because you need to know one to know the other so you'll have to read them all simulataneously. Once you've completed all of this and know how to accomplish this task, we're going to change everything so you'll have to start all over again.

    Notes:

    - Most of the example exercises don''t work.

    - If you have questions, there are plenty of Microsoft representatives that won't answer your question.

    - If you really need answers to a question, call Microsoft support. ($245US charge applies)

    - Nothing in these lessons actually apply to the real world

    - If you don't do everything exactly as we tell you, you'll have "not invented here" syndrome and our MCSD's will mock you.
  • mobilitatis, on 10/12/2007, -3/+1One more reason why Windows Owne the Market!
  • bigj4155, on 10/12/2007, -1/+2Microsoft uses a website www.learnvisualstudio.net. This website has probably over 100 videos inbetween vb and C#. . The videos that microsoft has selected are on par with all of the videos on the site. Only down point is that quiet a bit of the videos are performed in Visual Studio 2003.

    • apaganguy, on 10/12/2007, -1/+1That's not a Microsoft site. (See bottom: "This site is not affiliated in any way with the Microsoft Corporation.")

      But it's a good site.
  • davidgolding, on 10/12/2007, -2/+2So if they are so good at teaching us how to develop web sites, why can't they make IE follow suit?
  • mahdaeng, on 10/12/2007, -1/+0this would have been useful to me about 15 years ago. better nate than lever.
  • EverySam, on 10/12/2007, -2/+1PHP and Notepad are all you need for web development.

    Any 12-year-old skilled in those two could replicate Microsoft's entire site and make it faster and valid, and improve those hideous title graphics.

    Microsoft needs to stop with these worthless languages and platforms. They're holding the whole human race back.
  • crackmonkey, on 10/12/2007, -3/+1At least half of these comments are coming out of Redmond. Hired to do nothing but post pro Microsoft propaganda on any board that will have them. Well goons Vista is your coffin. Go ahead and climb in.
    • DieselDaddy, on 10/12/2007, -2/+2OMFG, you mean that there might be people out there that _gasp_ consider Microsoft to be a good platform and aren't drinking all the FOSS cool-aide?? How can that be?? IT MUST BE A CONSPIRACY PERPETRATED BY BILL GATES HIMSELF!! Quick, alert the Illuminati, their plans have been foiled by crackmonkey!!

      Loosen up the tinfoil hat... there is a real world out side of your WoW clan and Linux kernel recompiling.
  • jockser, on 10/12/2007, -1/+6i think this is great that they are letting beginners download studio express for free (because its a great software) and giving free lessons
    i suggest hitting the books and those videos are a good start
  • pirotess, on 10/12/2007, -3/+2It's from Microsoft so the development information presented is using non-compliant standards. I'd suggest that newcomers don't ever start working with Microsoft development tools since it's similar to their operating systems... flawed.
  • adamjbuckland, on 10/12/2007, -1/+3This is exactly what i have been waiting for! =)
  • looptheloop, on 10/12/2007, -1/+0Microsoft wants avalon (WPF) web apps to replace macromedia flash, and this website can really bring avalon (avaliable on xp and vista) into the classroom.

    http://channel9.msdn.com/ShowPost.aspx?PostID=127836 (cool demo of avalon in IE (approximately the first 8 minutes of it is using avalon on a desktop))
    http://msdn2.microsoft.com/en-us/netframework/aa663321.aspx#browser (Some real code samples)
  • newfoundnoise82, on 10/12/2007, -2/+3developers, developers, developers, developers, DEVELOPERS, DEVELOPERS, DEVELOPERS, DEVELOPERS!!!!

    say it with me now....
  • jaydoj, on 10/12/2007, -1/+2I'm new at programming, and yeah I agree many have to crawl before they walk. I am taking C++ right now, and at first it was difficult to understand, but after a while it started to get a little easier to sort through. I understand that most of this builds on itself, as far as the knowledge aspect goes, and I for one applaud Microsoft for putting the site up, upon a first look, it seems pretty beneficial. I don't do much with web development (that's next semester), but I'm pretty sure theres a lot of helpful stuff on the site.
  • dfltr, on 10/12/2007, -1/+1on the one hand it's great that they're actually putting effort into helping people get started.

    on the other hand, it seems like learning even something as simple as CSS from MSDN would be counter-productive in the long run. you'd have to un-learn a whole mess of bad habits in order to go from dabbling to actual production work.
  •  

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