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75 Comments
- inactive, on 05/17/2008, -6/+44No.
- n0odles, on 05/17/2008, -8/+32Disappointing failure.
- possiblyneil, on 05/17/2008, -6/+28It is terrible that governments will gravitate towards beg faceless corporations rather than dedicated community. When will people and community be more important than money?
- c00l2sv, on 05/17/2008, -3/+23Here we are, where money make rules!
:( - 4DFX, on 05/17/2008, -19/+38Please stop submitting OLPC articles. The traitors don't deserve the propaganda anymore.
- omababy, on 05/17/2008, -4/+19Maybe I'm overreacting but I actually find the XO pic FTA with an XP desktop quite offensive.
- theaceoffire, on 05/17/2008, -2/+16These people have never SEEN a laptop, much less an XP logo.
To them, it is not familiar, it is just weird.
So instead of using an interface designed from the ground up to be easy for new users, they will get a 6 year old interface that people learned because everyone had it. - Phocion55, on 05/17/2008, -8/+20Even though the WinXP OLPC is missing a handful of useful features when compared to the original OLPC (ex: mesh networking) and costs more, chances are people will mindlessly drone to it simply because it has a Windows logo burning into their retinas.
Looking at my OLPC now, and overall, WinXP just seems like an awkward fit for the device, - Phocion55, on 05/17/2008, -2/+10"For a low end PC Windows is the choice of logic. It SIMPLY lets the user do more than Linux."
This line blew a fuse in my brain. WinXP OLPC has less features when compared to the original OLPC if you compare the specs. But I decided to read on....
"If your asking super low income people to learn Linux AND then run their educational software through WINE..."
I stopped reading there. Clearly, you've never touched an OLPC.
The original OLPC comes pre-installed with TONS of interactive educational software. The WinXP version, as far as I can tell, is just a default base installation.
No need to run anything in WINE, since the original Linux OLPC is the one with the native pre-installed educational software. - theaceoffire, on 05/17/2008, -4/+12They caved into Microsoft's Pressure, are going to PAY Microsoft $3 per unit and have to UPGRADE their units as well to run XP...
So now it is more expensive, less powerful, and if you want the FREE os you have to pay $7 per unit to get "dual boot" upgrade.
So on a machine built to be $100, now $200, you are gonna have to add on %10 of the original price (%5 of the new one).
So for every 1000000 units MS will make $3 million, it will cost $7 million more if the gov wants linux, etc, etc.
Src: http://tech.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=08/05/15/2 ... - amirman, on 05/17/2008, -0/+8the problem is that XP on these machines basically turn them into useless crippled laptops when with the OLPC OS they are one of the most unique feature rich low power laptops around.
- InorganicMatter, on 05/17/2008, -7/+14Sugar OS was an all-around bad idea. It doesn't accurately represent ANY mainstream operating systems. If you're going to teach kids Linux, it needs to be a mainstream Linux distribution, not a proprietary implementation like Sugar. Debian, Slackware, FreeBSD, and all the major players can be heavily slimmed down to XO specs, there was no need to make Sugar OS to begin with.
This isn't the result of Microsoft being "evil," it's the result of a really bad decision to use Sugar OS. - Moduliz0r, on 05/17/2008, -2/+9People like you then?
- Phocion55, on 05/17/2008, -2/+8The majority of these "unpaid hippie programmers" actually do work for some great companies and are simply donating code/ideas/bug reports in their free time.
But, by all means, continue on with your pathetic ignorance. - marx2k, on 05/17/2008, -1/+7joanon, you wrote that article from a standpoint of someone who thinks the OLPC is a powerful desktop computer. Way to give a lengthy argument with the completely wrong set of specs and purpose in mind.
- MWeather, on 05/17/2008, -0/+6I think you're confused. Sugar is the desktop environment, like Gnome, KDE or XFCE. The OS is a slimmed down Fedora, IIR.
- amirman, on 05/17/2008, -3/+9this is just stupid isn't it? i mean the OLPC OS is designed to work with the hardware so a lot of the features will be just plain unusable with XP. does XP have activity based networking on their different programs. this is just dumb. who are these people who would rather pay for defective software than have free software that works with the laptop?
- theaceoffire, on 05/17/2008, -2/+7If they spend $5 million on these, they would have gotten more PC's with linux than they will now with XP.
This means less for the kids. - jpnadia, on 05/17/2008, -0/+5And it's not like the governments in developing countries don't already have debt problems that richer countries won't forgive.
- Culyt, on 05/17/2008, -6/+11How long will Windows XP get support from Microsoft on this device? These laptops are designed to last the child for years and XP is already coming up for its end of life (despite people clinging to it desperately because of Vista being so crap). Will they still get security updates in 2 years time? Will there be a newer lightweight Windows replacement for it and will it be free?
I think the main problem with this project was actually the Sugar interface, while its got some great theoretical concepts in it, it seemed much too dumbed down to me. I started on MS-Dos 6.22 when I was around 7, and I quickly started to learn really basic programming with bat files and such (well it wasn't much in the way of programming but it was useful). The other system I learned at a similar age was Commodore 64 basic programming (I wish someone had told me what assembly actually was back then). Nither of these systems where setup to be easy to use, simplified interfaces. With the XO Government agents saw an interface that made the laptop look like a toy rather than a real laptop and asked if it could run Windows, the test cases where often getting rival Intel funded Classmate PC ones in the same area, except Intel where throwing money at it with things like digital projectors, but they also had a full unrestricted Windows desktop.
While there where things like a python shell and etoys, these where more sandbox experiences rather than a real full learning enviroment. This laptop could really have done with an actual terminal installed by default.
Another thing that I wounder about is where the online content will come from. While its possible the teachers will create it and share it with other schools they will need to be trained to do so. Explaining things like how tags work on a wiki or what editing is appropriate, how to be a member of the online community when they can barely send emails. And the real useful stuff will need to be in the form of software to be really useful, things like learning the local alphabet or how to write letters, since it will be location specific, someone will need to code it and package it in the XO format. - Phocion55, on 05/17/2008, -4/+9When I was in elementary school, I was taught everything on an old school Macintosh. I had absolutely no problem figuring out how to use Windows 95 when my family first purchased a computer running it.
Why? Because I learned how to reason with and interpret the UI, rather than memorize where things are. That's why I can't help but completely disagree with these types of arguments. The majority of problems people bitch about with Windows is simply because they *memorize* that a certain button-click SHOULD do this, and if it doesn't they throw up their arms and start cursing at the screen. Very rarely do they stop and think "Ok.....why didn't this work? Am I doing something wrong?" That's why I'm all about teaching people to think for themselves rather than memorization.
Likewise in 2001 when I was first sat down in front of a Linux server and asked to solve a problem. I didn't panic and ask where the "Start" button was. - theaceoffire, on 05/17/2008, -3/+7Teach the ideas, the methods, the functions.
Then they can apply it to any OS.
Its like learning the ideas behind C rather than memorizing the rules. - Phocion55, on 05/17/2008, -0/+4I see what you're saying. I guess what it boils down to is personal philosophy so I can't digg you down for that. It's just like asking "why donate money to a charity?" People do it for different reasons and you could probably argue about this for 8 hours.
But contributing could mean simply submitting a bug report or a suggestion - it doesn't mean distributing every piece of code you've ever written. - renegadeafk, on 05/17/2008, -0/+4***** THING SUCKS!
- theaceoffire, on 05/17/2008, -1/+5"Updated: The One Laptop Per Child program will put XP on its XO laptop and children in the developing world will have a choice between Windows and Linux."
Sorry, don't know when they added this.
I was worried MS bought them like they did the ISO vote... this is no where near as bad as I originally believed. - marx2k, on 05/17/2008, -0/+4I guess when you treat ideas as a finite resource, they can be worth a lot of money. However, smart people have an unending flow of ideas.
- theaceoffire, on 05/17/2008, -0/+3He has a point.
There is no way Vista will run on this, and unless Windows 7 is amazingly small it will be a non-option as well.. - clickwir, on 05/18/2008, -1/+4OLPC is NOT using Linux? ***** them then. They used to be awesome. Now they are just going to suck. XP? Pfft.
OLPC XO does not exist to me. - Sabin, on 05/17/2008, -11/+14I fail to see this as being a bad thing. Like it or not, Windows is basically the standard in business and government now. This will give these kids a chance to learn on a system that will be similar to what they may end up using in the future. It seems no one cares that this gives children a better chance to familiarize themselves with something and gaining skills that they can carry over in to the real world. Linux is a great OS but if someone has the choice between learning Linux and Windows I would recommend learning windows first every time.
- 4321234, on 05/17/2008, -0/+3Anytime something looks like it might threaten their monopoly, Microsoft always takes it seriously.
- timbro1, on 05/17/2008, -1/+4i gave you a thumb up for that one
- theaceoffire, on 05/17/2008, -2/+5They are not going to be playing Crysis on these things.
Anything non-gaming can be done on Linux, even Photoshop (CS1 and CS2 so far) (Which they also can not run on these machines).
Heck, I bet there is a dozen OS's with windows like GUI that will work on this small hardware if the GUI is such a big deal. - thorpus, on 05/17/2008, -8/+11While i disagree with the the move to Windows, their goals are still laudable. Calling them traitors is harsh man.
- Ademan, on 05/17/2008, -0/+3sugar isn't proprietary, and it's not an os...
Those points aside you did bring up something interesting. In the future when these kids transition to 'real' oses, be it windows, osx, linux, bsds whatever, they'll be faced with a huge workflow transition, as sugar is unlike any other mainstream (or even semi-mainstream) os.
But theaceofire brought up a good point as well, teaching ideas rather than specific behaviors, that way these kids will be able to more easily transition between ANY os. (of course, that's an ideal, judging by how few people are able to grasp this concept, it's probably impractical to expect it from kids) - TobiasParker, on 05/17/2008, -1/+4IMF and WTO ftl
- Ev3nt372, on 05/17/2008, -1/+4Why cant Microsoft at least market Windows Fundamentals for laptops like the XO and Eee PC? Something just tells me that regular WinXP wont run smoothly on those things. It also runs faster than Win98 for old PCs. WinFLS is just stripped down XP and it accepts all of the XP system updates.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_Fundamentals_ ...
http://www.microsoft.com/licensing/sa/benefits/fun ... - amirman, on 05/17/2008, -1/+4but are these laptops even fully functional with XP? a lot of what makes this PC special had to do with software breakthroughs like the fact that a kid can look on a screen and see what everyone else in the class was doing and perhaps find a classmate who's drawing a picture and join them. I've never seen XP with this kind of ability and even if it did XP is designed for adults not children. The OLPC OS is designed with children in mind specifically. Putting XP on these PCs is just a good way to make most of the unique features unusable and bore the kids.
- jpnadia, on 05/17/2008, -0/+2Stupid big business taking what would have been a really neat idea-- or, well, what might have been a neat idea in about five or ten years-- and ***** it up.
- truck87bp, on 05/19/2008, -0/+2Should the $100 laptop be controlled before it too late?
Is the Linux software too far away from the Microsoft Endorsed and Coded Trusted Computing Platform ?
Has it been decided that no one can be trusted and only approved software must be used ?
Has Trusted Computing and Digital Rights Management removed any pleasure recently from you when you use your personal computer to do personal stuff like make a home movie or edit a family photograph or make a DVD?
Does your computer know the owner of the digital camera or scanner or ipod you just plugged in?
Has your software limited you from using a Cannon camera with a Nikon or Olympus camera software?
Does windows stop you from importing MOV files from your $600 camera into Movie Maker?
Has MS software disabled any of your older equipment from working on Windows making you think it is broken but somehow it works fine in Linux?
Is MS also trying to destroying Linux and Apple by enforcing TC and DRM ?
Will Apple and Linux become the computing platform's of the very near future due to pure spite by people that currently use MS Windows and their products ?
Has MS inadvertently destroyed their own business by subjecting freedom to total lock-down and creating hate by anyone who uses proprietary software ?
Is Linux and Apple going to go away because of all of this and why won't it ?
Do you feel that you better get Linux on a computer before its too late even if you don't know currently how to use it ?
Are the Linux users getting close to being afraid of doing automatic updates?
How much are you willing to give up of your personal rights, freedom and happiness?
Does Trusted Computing really mean what it implies ?
Are you feeling totally different why the One Laptop Per Child is going to have Windows installed it ? Why do most new computers have windows pre-installed on them ? - trogdoor, on 05/18/2008, -0/+2What happens when XP is EOL'd and Microsoft no longer supports it ( security patches particularly )? Will the kids just be left with an OS that isn't safe to be connected to the internet or will Microsoft find a way to get Vista or Windows CE on it? Will they be able to upgrade to this new version for free or even the reduced price they are offering for XP now?
- TobiasParker, on 05/17/2008, -0/+2I don't know why you are being dugg down, that always happens. Corporations exploit genuinely good ideas to make a profit when they are not ready to be produced.
- linuxpenguin, on 05/17/2008, -1/+3Perhaps you'd like to connect them to the real world so that they can see that everyone else uses Windows.
We can give them Windows, but they still won't know that everyone else uses Windows. The Internet and the knowledge that comes with it require the Internet, whether they have Windows or not. Without the Internet, they won't know or care what others have.
Kids would rather have candy and toys anyhow. If they were to choose, they'd choose the one that looks more "fun" and easier to use - I'm guessing that would be Sugar. - mckooiker, on 05/18/2008, -0/+2The point is that Windows is not free. Get the poor children used to Windows and they will be paying license fees to windows the rest of their lives. It's immoral.
The fact that you call the GNU/Linux a useless GUI shows that you probably did not try it very recently, since the OS lagging behind when we are talking about GUI is Windows (XP). - linuxpenguin, on 05/17/2008, -2/+3First of all, the Linux community didn't write the article.
Second of all, the reason this is disconcerting is because of the reasons why Linux was chosen in the first place: cost and the ability for children to learn how it works (open-source). There would be little to no concern if they switched to BSD, or even chose to make their own kernel. The concern is that now they could be throwing away what they were working diligently towards, all because of the wants and hopes of large corporations and governments.
The goal is to help learning with a low-cost PC. A free OS helps the low-cost part, and an open-source OS can help the learning part. Some would argue that only a small percentage of the children would be wanting to look at this code, which may be true - but I would argue that the availability is important. These laptops only help the children learn by the simple fact that they can't learn to use that which is completely unavailable and perhaps even inconceivable to them. A laptop with Windows is better than no laptop, but a laptop with source code that the children can learn from would be better - there's sure to be some children who want to learn what makes the whole thing work and would be interested in seeing that code. - Gregsaw, on 05/18/2008, -0/+1isn't linux about freedom of choice? if they have the chance to boot into whatever they want, why stop them?
- FlyingCaveman, on 02/22/2009, -0/+1I'm sure I'm not going to buy one get one now.
- dig1x, on 05/17/2008, -3/+4Wow, look at how the cheerleaders have turned on OLPC. It used to be a wonderful success, and the governments were buying them and the hardware looked great and and and and.
Then, the project leaders decide to put XP on them, and *instantly* the tone changes.
Shanesmemler: "OLPC is such a massive failure"
omababy: "I actually find the XO pic FTA with an XP desktop quite offensive"
possiblyneil: "It is terrible that governments will gravitate towards beg faceless corporations rather than dedicated community."
skored: "Governments are making the buying decisions. Not kids."
A sader collection of zealots and their epic whining. "failure, offensive, beg" all sour grapes. And, to respond to skored's submission; do you *really* think children would choose SugarOS and exclude themselves purposefully from the 95% of the world's desktop users just to support some empty rebellion against MSFT?
Perhaps they'd rather join the real world instead. - theaceoffire, on 05/17/2008, -4/+5I was a Windows user.
Xp was not getting a fair shake on the "$100 laptop" because it costs $200 to UPGRADE to XP (From bestbuy.com).
In other words, they wanted a Free OS for price reasons.
This scared MS (Millions of new linux users?? Not buying Windows only *****??), so they bent over backwards, made XP = $3, and forced them to upgrade the hardware to run it. - MrSteamTank, on 05/18/2008, -0/+1The first country in the world that ordered these laptops is Uruguay. Uruguay is hardly a technologicaly illiterate country.
Uruguay is right after Chile and Argentina when it comes to prosperity so really many of these laptops aren't going to the poorest countries but rather the countries that are almost first world countries but simply need to reduce the poverty levels in some of the countries areas. - bobartig, on 05/17/2008, -0/+1Sugar has a terminal installed by default. Having said that, there's really nothing in Sugar that can't just be reimplemented easily under windows, save the possibly mesh networking, which may be a moderate effort to implement.
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