What is Digg?313 Comments
- armo, on 01/13/2008, -4/+165"the school system can make copies for all the computers they have."
and beyond that into the homes of the kids. No more excuses not to do homework because you don't have proprietary software A, ensuring access to those that can't afford it, as long as they have a pc in the home.
The argument I often hear against free software in schools is that parents want their kids to be trained to use 'industry standard' proprietary software product B but by the time they've finished school/college the next release is out which looks completely different so the free software would have been just as good at teaching them the functions and features of that kind of software. Teach them how to use a computer, not a specific application. - bobcatred, on 01/13/2008, -2/+88You need to get teachers to accept it first. The sad fact is that the majority of teachers are barely computer literate, and many panic at the thought of upgrades or changes to the one or two programs they know how to use. Until we have a generation of completely computer literate teachers, no one is going to fight school boards and superintendents for quality equipment (take a look at a lot of schools, particularly in low-income areas. Oftentimes the computers used in labs are 5 or 10 years old and barely run at all), much less non-mainstream software.
- Jaleho, on 01/13/2008, -1/+54Since when do high schoolers go straight into the industry? Let the colleges where people pay for the class teach the proprietary products and the public schoolers can learn the basics of how different groups of software work. If you understand how lassos, fill buckets, and layers work, switching from one piece of graphics software to another is just a matter of taking a day to figure out the UI layout.
- NaziHatinChimp, on 01/13/2008, -0/+52My girlfriend is a first grade teacher and sometimes I help her tear out pages from their math books (kids that age would tear the pages). They are in color and probably cost a fortune. For the life of me, I can't understand why there cannot be an open source textbook for public schools. Particularly younger classes. Anyone could write them a xeroxable first grade math book and save thousands a school per year.
- Darkhacker, on 01/13/2008, -1/+51This "learning the industry standard" crap is why my school district won't use free software. They also receive proprietary software at a heavy discount. The biggest problem my district faces is that decisions about computers and software are not done by the IT professionals, but rather a committee composed of 90 year olds that can barely use a mouse who vote to decide what we should do with our computers. The systems operator and computer teacher at my high school school have both been fighting for ages to get Firefox installed but they vote it down claiming a "lack of support" and OpenOffice was not installed because it is not an "industry standard".
slightly off topic: RMS has got balls to put "GNU Operating System" at the top of the page. - Darkhacker, on 01/13/2008, -2/+42And when new versions of those proprietary products come out you're screwed anyway. One should never learn to use software based on wrote memorization. They should be learning concepts which will transfer to any program.
- RobotBuddha, on 01/13/2008, -0/+35You'd have a hard time getting them into circulation. Textbook adoption at the grade school level is 99-100% politics and *****.
- zwaldowski, on 01/13/2008, -0/+33Very true. My school rules state that all homework must be done in Microsoft Office (I've seen multiple times where my classmates got in trouble or even got a failing grade because of a messup with software it home). Basically, my school mandates that you spend 200+ dollars for homework.
Quick Edit: Proof is on Page 16 of this PDF: http://www.hcs.k12.sc.us/middle/sjm/agenda/agenda. ... - Takuro, on 01/13/2008, -2/+323. "I should reconsider retaking the 5th grade."
Would a real district employee spell "oversee" as "over sea?" Either you sir, are lying, or the situation is far worse than I expected. - deltron, on 01/13/2008, -6/+33Open Office FTW.
- RyeBrye, on 01/13/2008, -6/+32Schools should not use QWERTY keyboards. They should teach typing classes on DVORAK only. Think of the productivity increase society would realize in just a few short years!
/utopia - billinjapan, on 01/13/2008, -0/+25Isn't that what they said about Linux? Now how many 500 Fortune companies now incorporate Linux in their IT infrastructure. Don't forget, What is here today is gone tomorrow.
Your lack of foresight is why they need to teach the concepts not how to use one set of tools because many move around and not every company uses the same tools. Learn concepts and then learning how to use the tools will be easier. - RobotBuddha, on 01/13/2008, -0/+24The favorite one of these that I've heard of came down to microsoft products because the discount percentage was higher than with free software. There's no end to how far human stupidity can be magnified by creating a committee.
- asskey, on 01/13/2008, -1/+25Because in 10 years they are going to be using Office 2007? Moron.
- GOVStooge, on 01/13/2008, -0/+23If you can't figure out how to do in Photoshop what you did in GIMP then you didn't learn anything in the first place.
- fishpen0, on 01/13/2008, -0/+22The only problem that I have with schools using "industry standard" software is that they force me to use it, yet refuse to provide it to me. Some of this software can cost hundreds of dollars and is somehow forced into (my high school's) graduation requirements. This means that every class I take somehow works this software into projects and assignments, yet I am provided with no way to work on them at home without spending my own money. The worst part is that when I ask a teacher if I can use an alternate (free) version of the software, they typically tell me that I cannot, because... well they can never really explain that part.
- plr4ever, on 01/13/2008, -0/+21OpenOffice saves to widely used and microsoft formats, so just dont tell them.
- Tippis, on 01/13/2008, -0/+20Industry standards change, as does the software that *is* the standard -- PS when I was in school was vastly different from PS as it exists today. *That* is the nature of capitalism: everything will have changed by the time you move into "real life" because otherwise, the software companies won't be able to hawk new versions to the companies every 18 months.
What the schools should teach the kids is how to write -- not how to use Word; how to compose and design images -- not how to use Illustrator; how to cut a movie -- not how to use AVID; how to interpret histograms and how colour addition works -- not how to use Photoshop. In short, they should learn a skill, not a tool -- the tool will come naturally, and will be easily exchanged, if the skill is there.
Programming and software design has nothing to do with Visual Studio. 3D modelling has nothing to do with Maya. Photo composition has nothing to do with Nikon. An on it goes... The *opposite* is almost always true -- the tool has something to do with the skill -- but the skill will always be something bigger than, and more long-lasting than, the tool that happens to be the latest rave at the moment. If the schools taught the kids the tools instead of the skill, they'd be wasting everyone's time on something that will be outdated long before the kids even graduate. - BlueSkyfish, on 01/13/2008, -0/+19Open source software does the same basic tasks as proprietary software. If kids learn to use it now, they'll stick with it later in life instead of buying proprietary software.
And this is a list of opinions, how can it be inaccurate? Stop being a douche. - billinjapan, on 01/13/2008, -1/+20Why does everyone want them to learn how to use say "MS Word"? You mean if they learned how to use a word processing application that they couldn't learn how to use another application.
But this comes down a more important topic, What are the schools suppose to teach the students? Should they teach them only one way to solve a problem? Should they teach them that what the teacher says is the only truth? Should they teach them that there is only one way to get the store?
Is there only one screwdriver for all screws? No, just like there isn't only one application for all your work.
As you can see this logic isn't really logical at all. Schools should teach the students concepts that can be applied to many situations and to look for the best tool available. - joshwehatetech, on 01/13/2008, -1/+19There is really a lot you have to consider in a school.
1. Teachers are really creatures of habit. Even if 90% of them do not care or could not find a difference in the new software, the 10% will complain and complain LOUD to whomever they can find and quite possibly to the union. Change in a school is hard unless...
2. The change is made for financial reasons. A lot of schools no longer have much of a technology budget (rather it is lack of funds or just overall lack of some thinking it is important). When push comes to shove when you do not have money those open source alternatives look more enticing or you stay with Office 2000 forever.
3. If you botch just 1 single switch over you will partically have 0% luck doing it without outside contracting help. Once faith is lost it is hard to get it back. - mr5150, on 01/13/2008, -1/+18Schools need to get out of the corporate purse and start using freeware. Allowing kids to keep an open mind about software is essential. Giving kids MS office and Photoshop to work with at school whilst might not mean much to the public it means great business for the corporates who have these kids addicted to their software at a very young age and become unwilling to learn anything else later in life.
Todays kids are no different to crack babies in terms of using software cause the majority of them will be too lazy to learn anything else. - djbon2112, on 01/13/2008, -2/+19But it's been, what, almost 20 years, and they STILL don't have a kernel? The dichotomy is dead friend, GNU IS Linux. Linux IS GNU.
- Ludnix, on 01/13/2008, -3/+20My school switched to Open Office and nearly all of the students were unaware that it is not in fact their beloved Mircrosoft Word.
- metaknite, on 01/13/2008, -1/+18Actually it would cost more than you think. Xeroxing a 100-400 pages per kid would be extremely expensive for a school to do. E-books would solve that problem while creating their own unique challenges.
- ac42, on 01/13/2008, -4/+21Not all schools get software at 'next to nothing'. We have an open academic license, and XP is 65 dollars a computer. Office 2003 is about the same. Vista and Office 2007? Twice that. That sounds cheap for the average user, yes, but multiple that amount by 25 in a computer lab. Or 100 for our small school. Now a new computer would come with the OS, but not all of the other software. Photoshop with our license is 299 dollars. PER MACHINE. No secondary school around here can REALLY afford that. They may DO it, but which the budget deficits going on, and teachers getting laid off, they SHOULDN'T. I've taught alot of graphic design with GIMP. And to be honest, learning the concepts of things on GIMP and then using Photoshop has actually been easier for my kids. It was harder for me to learn GIMP after learning Photoshop first. Paint.net actually works very well for younger kids, as well. I've been able to show them more advanced things where GIMP was difficult for alot of them maneuver. I've found exposing them to several programs has actually helped them. We do exercises in each program, and then when I give them projects, Iet THEM choose the tools they wish to use. It's been very successful, and it's interesting the reasons different students give for their choices. I think I'm teaching them how to evaluate tools and make choices based on what works best for THEM instead of pushing them into a software box. And they know that there ARE more program out there than Microsoft Office and Adobe. And when they finally do use Photoshop, it easy for them to adapt.
- aznhomig, on 01/13/2008, -3/+19They should use free software so our school budget doesn't have to constantly have to go to Microsoft for the copies of Windows XP and Office per computer. That money can therefore be better used for books, class size reduction, and school improvement.
- RyeBrye, on 01/13/2008, -2/+17funny... your mom charges when she sucks
- jmpeagle, on 01/13/2008, -0/+15government should always go for the most efficient alternative. Why should the government pay for something it can get without use of force for free?
- TheJokerV, on 01/13/2008, -0/+15Then you should only learn what everyone else is doing and not the basic concepts behind applications? If I thought that way I would only know how to program in C++ and only be trained in visual studio. Instead I learned the basic concepts behind most languages and now I can program in almost any language as long as I have a book or example of the code. Also I do like to use visual studio to do most of the grunt work for me but I can still go in and modify any of the code. The same goes for all these programs. Learn the basic concepts and you'll be able to use the propietary software when you need to.
- canthraxp, on 01/13/2008, -1/+15armo, on the first comment already said it "Teach them how to use a computer, not a specific application." (worth quoting).
You could train a monkey to do a repetitive task. You could do the same thing with children, and call it a day. If you teach them a open application, how to adjust to any environment and being capable of doing anything with the tools that they give you, then you're jumping from the monkey memory-based level to a human rational level. I think anyone, particular OS fanboyism aside, that Free open source apps in the school go along perfect. - zeiben, on 01/13/2008, -3/+17Schools don't use free software because school administrators and teachers are suckers for marketing and they fear having to learn anything new. They don't use 80% of the features in Word, and yet you couldn't pry it out of their cold, dead hands. Kids, on the other hand, don't give a crap and will use whatever's available. However, given enough time in a classroom with those kinds of teachers and a school with idiot administrators, and even those kids become as incompetent with technology as the adults around them.
- Tippis, on 01/13/2008, -2/+15Unless the schools have access to software that has yet to be developed, or even invented, they will never be able to do that, so that's a pretty idiotic requirement.
- jmpeagle, on 01/13/2008, -1/+13that was my point
- Tippis, on 01/13/2008, -0/+11Those "new versions" you speak of, which ones are they, and what are you using now? Or are you telling me that PS CS3 is no different from PS2.5 (what I used in school), that 3ds MAX 2k8 is no different from 3D Studio 3?
More importantly, what is better in the long rung: knowing how to use those programs, or knowing how to retouch images, editing movies, and working with 3D modelling and -lighting, regardless of the program? - martalli, on 01/13/2008, -0/+10However, an Creative Commons textbook could be printed anywhere, and for a lot less money potentially than most textbooks currently are printed. You can find books for homeschoolers at Wal-Mart that are huge but only costs $5-10. Just goes to show how inexpensive books can be.
- secrity, on 01/13/2008, -0/+10Why is she tearing pages out of math books?
- jayhawk, on 01/13/2008, -0/+9a word processor is a word processor. if a high school student or young adult heading out to work is going to have trouble switching to Word then these kids are not going to realize much success in life. using Word all along won't make a bit of difference.
- plr4ever, on 01/13/2008, -0/+9I hate South Carolina schools. They cannot do anything correct here.
- MWeather, on 01/13/2008, -1/+10"As far as I know, using Microsoft Word doesn't quite have this effect."
That's because air traffic control and traffic lights run on Unix. - RobotBuddha, on 01/13/2008, -0/+9"The real world doesn't use free software"
The world extends past your particular occupation. You might as well say, "The real world doesn't used EEG machines. Never seen one of them in 'my' office" - GOVStooge, on 01/13/2008, -1/+10piss them all off and hand in a printed version
- Hetman, on 01/13/2008, -1/+10This is completely true. If you can learn one operating system you can learn any OS. They are not so different that the skills students learn do not transfer. It is about learning skills. Their is going to be a different OS every couple years. That is why we should teach kids to adapt and learn. No OS is going to exist forever.
- saranagati, on 01/13/2008, -1/+10Stallman had made many GNU programs before linux ever even came out. It's really amazing the amount of work stallman put into rewriting all those unix tools so that they were open sourced. He even got to the point while creating them that he couldn't type any more and had to dictate to someone else what to type. If I had put that much work into something i'd be a bit arrogant about it too, especially given the circumstances that most people are actually using GNU tools and just running the linux kernel in the background. In reality they both benefited from each other and both might not still be around without the other. GNU may have died eventually since there was no operating system to adopt the tools and without the tools, Linux may have stopped development once it got to the stage of creating programs for it. Of course, I almost never refer to it as GNU/Linux unless there's a specific reason i want to be that detailed.
- Audacitor, on 01/13/2008, -1/+10Free software developers already have. GIMP, Blender, Paint.Net, these are all greater than or equal to their corporate counterparts. Hell, I know a local studio downtown that uses these programs for their graphic design jobs because they can't afford the "industry standard." And their work looks just as good as anyone else. Just because proprietary software is the "standard" doesn't mean free software is worse. Look at Linux-based systems and Windows. Ubuntu is years ahead of Vista.
- PHiZ187, on 01/13/2008, -0/+9OLPC!
- tehbored, on 01/13/2008, -1/+9Because I don't want my tax money going into Steve Ballmer's pockets.
- Takuro, on 01/13/2008, -0/+8Darn.... if I could digg myself down I almost would right now. Well done.
- GOVStooge, on 01/13/2008, -0/+8Schools have no business teaching anything that will be "used". That's called a training seminar.
Schools should be reserved for developing the ability to learn later in life. Teach concepts and things that are persistent across a subject matter... Software and computers are nothing but the tools by which we employ our knowledge. - known, on 01/13/2008, -1/+9Open source promotes Competition.
Closed source promotes Collusion. -
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