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- Philluminati, on 03/19/2008, -11/+138Linus Torvalds once spoke about "Desktop Inertia". It's a feeling of comfort at your desktop. Above all other reasons, it's the reason Linux's uptake is so slow. People don't often stick to Windows because 1 piece of hardware or software doesn't work in my opinion...they'd run VMs, or dual boot. The reason they don't switch is because they are just happy with XP. They know how it works and what the intricacies are.
I feel it's exactly the same thing across different distributions of Linux as well. All these new Ubuntu users...are Ubuntu users. When something easier comes out (and some say it has with PCLinuxOS) they won't switch because they are happy with Ubuntu. It's just at the right level for them. Whilst I can appreciate Ubuntu, I'm a fedora guy. What can I say? I just like working with rpms. Let's all spread the love! - oobuntu, on 03/19/2008, -8/+119Ubuntu snobbery is completely uncalled for. If a distro becomes popular, that shouldn't be a good enough reason to knock it.
It's a shame that KDE hasn't had the attention that Gnome has, but maybe there will be an extra effort when KDE4 gets good next year. I for one have started looking at Gnome as a stopgap whilst the KDE 3.5.x line has stagnated while resources are poured into KDE4.
Remember everybody was a noob once. Everyone was an excited teenager once. Some of those enthusiastic guys are tomorrows developers/testers/sysadmins so don't knock them too hard. - Soldierboi, on 05/09/2008, -5/+76I just switched back to Oscar Meyer hotdogs the other day
- smackieattk, on 03/19/2008, -14/+72Nerds! Nerds! Nerds!
I am a Mac user that is distracted by shiny things. - DnH500, on 03/19/2008, -7/+60Personally don't understand the whole "ubuntu is for n00bs" distro snobbery. Its like windows users sneering at gnu/linux users.
- praisethelard, on 06/06/2008, -4/+36Hebrew National FTW
- samurimaster, on 03/19/2008, -2/+26Then dont read it
- Chakat, on 03/19/2008, -1/+23Sorry, they can't. They're still busy compiling firefox.
- BigManOnCampus, on 03/19/2008, -7/+26Slackware is old and busted.
Arch is the new way for ground-up-assemble-your-os-as-you-like distros. It has package management that is just as slick as Ubuntu. It just doesn't have the gigantic repositories that Ubuntu does. I'm using it for a MythTV box and it has been awesome so far. On install, Arch recognized my PC-HDTV5500 capture cards, which are rather obscure as expansion cards go. - WatchDragon, on 03/19/2008, -0/+19Use what makes you happy, isn't it as simple as that?
- tvanwyk, on 03/19/2008, -8/+26The criticisms of Fedora don't even make sense. Not having advanced enough graphics card to play some stupid Linux game or run desktop effects? That's because Fedora can't include the good proprietary drivers for copyright issues (I'm not entirely clear on the copyright status of Ubuntu). In Fedora, enable Livna, run "yum install kmod-nvidia," and shut up. That's about all there is to it. Fedora and Ubuntu alike are pretty slow out of the box on default installs, but once you strip down services they're snappier.
So much of this is a "YMMV" issue - Fedora gets all MY hardware working out of the box (excepting the #$&* ATI card, but I use kmod-fglrx from Livna for that and problem solved), including the wireless card.
"Slackware or something where you have to build it from scratch ..."
Uhh... you don't have to build Slackware from scratch. That's a misleading statement. Linux from Scratch is from scratch. Slackware is a distro... the point of a distro is so that you don't have to build "it" from scratch (granted Slack takes a lot of compiling if you want to add software AFTER the install, but the distro itself is ready to install a compiled and runnable system from the install disks... like all the other distros.) - benchwarmer, on 03/19/2008, -1/+17It appears you have a rounding error somewhere in your code.
- Remmy, on 03/19/2008, -3/+19I think what you said is the problem. You are unconcerned about how Linux works and therefore are only in it for yourself. You have no desire to give back to the community. A community that is giving you an entire Operating System, that is both Free and free. In return, you could care less on how it works, just that it does what you want. It's a selfish attitude.
- inactive, on 03/19/2008, -5/+21ubuntu is great, mostly because of so many users on the forums. I spend a lot of time there helping people of all the Linux forums I've used it contains the least amount off ***** unlike the gentoo forums...
- daveisfera, on 03/19/2008, -1/+17Isn't that the guys point? That the Ubuntu distro "just works", and it doesn't take random knowledge of commands and such to get things to work.
- computrius, on 03/19/2008, -1/+17I dont know, oscar meyer hotdogs just arent as easy to use as ball park franks.. Most people dont have the expertise to put them in the microwave and hit the start button manually. Ball parks also come with much more in depth installation instructions.
- TheZorch, on 03/19/2008, -2/+18I love Ubuntu. 7.10 has been the best so far and according the Ubuntu group I am a part of who are testing 8.04 its going to be even better and more user friendly than ever before. I can't wait until its released. Also, Wubi will be the default installer for the OS so you can either install it the traditional way by repartitioning your drive or you can install it using Wubi to test it out to see if you like it. This is the best thing that's happened to Ubuntu since moving to Compiz Fusion.
- LightPhoenix, on 03/19/2008, -9/+25As an Ubuntu user, I can tell you exactly why I avoided KDE/Kubuntu - the stupid naming practices. It's not cute putting a "k" in the name of every bloody program, and eventually all the names started running together. So when I first started using Linux, and was looking at options, I chose the option that seemed the most serious. There are other reasons I thought Ubuntu was serious about being an actual user-friendly desktop, but that's why I chose Ubuntu over Kubuntu.
- Ademan, on 03/19/2008, -2/+171. Binary compatibility with debian has NEVER been a priority, and if it has ever occurred, has simply been an unintended side effect. (Why does this matter anyways? Not to mention, most packages seem to work anyways, and with the prevelance of non-native packages (python, perl, mono based, etc etc) this matters even less. As an ubuntu user i have NEVER ran into a problem where binary compatibility would have solved it (maybe as a debian user that would be a problem, but that doesn't make a good case for not using ubuntu)
2. I personally don't care for KDE, and part of the reason is my only experience is with Kubuntu, Kubuntu IS utter crap, it recieves almost no attention from the devs, this IS a problem.
3. Believe it or not, the "google it first" mentality isn't a rule to everyone, many people don't even know where to start, it may be annoying but it's hard to hold it against them, and no one is making you help those people anyways...
4. I sorta agree with you there, I think the "rolling releases" can be nice in some cases, but in others the set release schedule is superior in my opinion. - KloroFormd, on 03/19/2008, -1/+16I recently had a female friend of mine install Ubuntu herself. She has experience with nothing but Windows, had never installed an OS, couldn't troubleshoot virus/spyware issues... and she installed it without assistance.
Only issues she's had is her webcam and scanner not working. Webcam is some off-brand and she gave up on me as soon as I gave her instructions on getting the device ID, and the scanner is supposed to be supported but has hideous image distortion and quality. These 2 issues weren't enough to drive her away, she's still loving her Ubuntu install.
She decided she really didn't need this stuff working, it was more of a "wonder if it works" kinda thing. She's been using nothing but Ubuntu for 4 months and doesn't regret her decision to install it a bit. - barktwiggs, on 03/19/2008, -0/+15Nathan's hotdogs are way better...until everyone else starts eating them. Then I'll find a more obscure hotdog to eat.
- inactive, on 03/19/2008, -12/+27You switched to Ubuntu, loved it and posted something about it on Digg. Why don't you go have a seat over there?
I'll probably get buried for this, but honestly, how many times will Ubuntu get FP'd? It's great, but really; come on. - Sprung, on 03/19/2008, -0/+14Ya know Randall, and I might add that I'm saying this because I care...
They make decaf blends now that are darn near as tasty as the fully caffeinated blends. Check it out! - Dylan47, on 03/19/2008, -4/+18Gentoo represent
- classhelper, on 03/19/2008, -0/+14I'm sorry to hear you're catching a bunch of flak from the community in response to your inquiries. Please feel free to hit up ClassHelper.org and contact me anytime with questions. There *are* helpful people in the community; they're just somewhat hard to find sometimes.
- snotrokit, on 03/19/2008, -1/+14I use a bunch of distros from Ubuntu/Fedora/SuSe/RedHat/BSD/etc. Each one has its strong points. My Zimbra box runs on Ubuntu, my app server runs RedHat and a crapload of Xens, my desktop is SuSe. I like em all, some more than others. I don't buy into this snobbery BS. Hey, at least they are not running Vista.
- TheZorch, on 03/19/2008, -1/+13You are?!
- classhelper, on 03/19/2008, -0/+12Ten year Linux user and programmer here, using Ubuntu 7.10 on AMD64. A lot of us "more experienced" (you could just call me old) guys use Ubuntu for serious computing; I write web/database apps and use Debian and CentOS for the server side.
- drlog, on 03/19/2008, -0/+12I kompletely agree!
hang on... - Gerbil_Juice, on 03/19/2008, -0/+12I affectionately call them Jewdogs.
- Gonthim, on 03/19/2008, -3/+14I prefer Ball Park Franks. The juicy qualities and meaty texture are far superior.
Ball Park Franks: They plump when you cook 'em! - pooptaster, on 03/19/2008, -0/+11It's not Ubuntu specific, it's Gnome and KDE specific moreso.
Things that are mounted in /media will show up on their desktops, and things in /mnt won't.
Removable media is mounted at /media so it will be easily removable in KDE / Gnome.
Why Ubuntu mounts ALL extra partitions there I don't know, and don't care since I don't use it. - expatcatalyst, on 03/19/2008, -1/+12Thank goodness, a post I could understand and relate to. Thanks!
- classhelper, on 03/19/2008, -1/+11The tone of your comment wasn't very helpful. Speaking as a 10 year Linux/BSD user (mostly software/database development, but my home machines run Ubuntu as well), your reply to shadowmoose's comment is probably a good representation of the negative treatment he's been getting from the community. The last sentence of your post would have sufficed.
- classhelper, on 03/19/2008, -0/+10Debian is synonymous with stability. Gentoo evokes thoughts of speed and customization.
- wolferz, on 03/19/2008, -6/+15FTA "Ubuntu is sometimes thought of as the beginner's distro, something that more advanced users don't care about - they think if you're advanced, you need Slackware or something where you have to build it from scratch, rewrite or add parts to the kernel to make it more compatible to your system, write your own drivers, etc, but that just takes up time. Of all the distros I've tried, Ubuntu is the fastest, most reliable, and (most of the time) most compatible."
Woot perhaps there is hope for Linux yet.
There is this weird sense in among Linux users and a large part of the open source community that easy is bad. Ok ok not bad... just lame. That if you can't do it the hard way then you suck. Actually it's more like if you DON'T do it the hard way, you suck. There is also the issue that Linux users are predominantly techies... people with significant computer skills to begin with. What they consider ease the average non-techie places in the same category as calculus. So when some one points out that something should be simplified the responce "Why? I have not problem doing it that way" inveitable comes up as an excuse for why it shouldn't be made easier.
But here is the thing. Easy and hard isn't about whether or not something is cool. Easy and hard is about time. As some one who has become extremely proficient with Windows and am well on my way to doing the same under Linux I find that, while it is fun to have to occasional challenge, there are times when I jsut want things to work and to do so smoothly. I don't care if the computer itself is fast or slow. I can get up and fix myself a drink and come back. At least it isn't wasting MY time. What pisses me off is when I want to do something that, if i was using windows it would be a 30 second task, and under Linux it turns into a 3 hour affair.
There have been occasional instances where the reverse has been true. Doing something in Windows took far longer than it would have in Linux. However, assuming what I want to do is even doable under windows, as a general rule it can be done faster or only marginally slower than in Linux. I'm not talking about long drawn out calculations like video trans-coding or 3d model rendering. I'm talking about sharing a folder over the network, installing a web browser, changing the dns servers being used. I have had occasions where everything I just mentioned took me more than 2 hours... ether because of a bug, shoddy documentation, lack of proper tools, distro specific quicks, things like that.
What's more is the things that take longer in Windows are generally things that no one saved a half crazy power user or computer tech would even consider doing... such as trying to move the entire profile folder (C:Documents and Settings in windows xp) seamlessly to another hard drive. I did it with some fancy junctions and console commands. Took about an hour to wrap my head around the limitations and quirks involved, and about 7 more hours to actually do it on my vista machine (commands in windows vista console are really freaking *****, and not at all made for effecting multiple files and folders at once. The permissions commands are particularly atrocious).
By comparison the times I run into such stuff in Linux are almost always something simple. Something the average user would want to do. Installing a program for example. Granted it has gotten a lot better recently... but it still sucks. Want to install the latest ATI drivers from AMD under Ubuntu? too bad. Last time I checked they still aren't in the repositories. You can dl them yourself from AMD like you would for Windows... but then you need special tools to modify the .deb files.. which aren't even visible in the Ubuntu package manager. You have to drop to the console, sudo apt-get it. Of course all that after an hour of research. Then you STILL have to configure Xorg which involves the use of command line tools. Want to turn on file sharing? Sucks to be you. Depending on what version of Samba you have the graphical tools for it may not work right. If they do work you still have to have an understanding of basic networking concepts. What? NFS? Still sucks to be you. The gui tools for that outright suck ass. Console? Gotta learn commands and syntax' for the conf files.
Yes I could just use nVidia cards, yes I could get open source drivers, yes I could have some one set it up for me. That's not the point though. The point is in windows... I wouldn't have to. I don't really HAVE to now but, honestly, I got more important things to deal with. I want a clean simple setup that doesn't ask me what to do. I tell it what I want to do, and it figures out the details for me without me even seeing what details are being figured out. I CAN spend lots of time with Linux and make it work. I just would rather not.
The average user outright can't though... and they are the ones who are most hurt by the open source communities continuing trend of putting their heads in the sand and pretending that these aren't problems. Just a little heads up, when some one says something it a problem telling them it isn't is the wrong answer, ESPECIALLY if you are right. Telling some one what they think is a problem isn't a problem is the methodology of a politician. Saying, honestly, that you will look into it and see what can be done is the methodology of a businessman. If Linux is ever going to realize it's full potential and really and truly become better than Windows in the eyes of people who don't give a rats ass about "freedom" from corporations or how "evil" Microsoft is (ie the average Joe and people who have more pressing matters to worry about) the open source community needs to realize that if some one complains about it the fact that some one is complaining is in and of itself a problem. No writing off concerns about ease of use as user error. No getting defensive when some one points out a problem. No down with Microsoft rhetoric. And most importantly all, no falling behind the crutch of "well since it's open source people who have problems with it can fix it themselves." That last one onely works for people who actually WANT to spend time on such stuff. Most people complaining aobut usability issues are complainiing about them because they DONT have time.
In the end it isn't really about how easy something is or isn't, it's about how much time it takes to accomplish. Then again, the easiest way to make something take less time, is to make it easier. - benchwarmer, on 03/19/2008, -3/+12How did this make the front page... Has anyone else looked around the blog at all? It's just a collection of teenage ramblings.
- smartazz, on 03/19/2008, -0/+9openSUSE also uses the /media convention
- SPThom, on 03/19/2008, -1/+10If Ubuntu is good enough for his needs, than why is "saving time" a bad reason to stick with it?
- inactive, on 03/19/2008, -1/+10Actually, I used to be all about kde... but Gnome has slowly grown on me. KDE just feels gimmicky whereas gnome just gets to the point. I'll reserve my judgment on KDE4 for when the 4.1 release comes out since it wouldn't be fair right now.
- encrypteduser, on 03/19/2008, -0/+9A lot of people don't understand why there is so much hate in the linux community towards ubuntu and other "easy" linux distros, so I'm going to attempt to explain it and hope you guys understand. Linux is/was an elitist operating system. It is the ***** you microsoft, ***** you apple, ***** you you! of operating systems. The elitist linux community doesn't want linux to be "easy" because it makes them less "elite" Try to ignore that ***** and do what makes you happy! I run several different distros depending on what I am doing but for the most part settle on FreeBSD because that's what I've grown accustom to.
- YamiJim, on 03/19/2008, -1/+9you expect to go from something you've used EVERYDAY for 5-10 years to something totally new and not have any learning curve?
Little naive, no? Don't fear the CLI it is your friend....Stick with it, you'll get it. And you'll never have to put money ion MS's pocket ever again.
Free your computer. - shadowmoose, on 03/19/2008, -12/+20I recently tried to switch to Ubuntu just so I could learn how to use linux but the transition from XP to linux is a rough one. I know how to do pretty much anything in XP but when I loaded Ubuntu it's like everyone was loling away at my expense calling me a noob. The only reason I got as far as I did with Ubuntu was because I have prior knowledge with computers, but if you out of the box new to it even Ubuntu won't make you feel as welcomed as XP does.
- drlog, on 03/19/2008, -1/+9I used to be a gentoo guy for about 2 years - I switched to ubuntu about 8 months ago.
They are all good distros! Spread the love :D - balaknair, on 03/19/2008, -0/+7I'm sorry to hear about people loling away at your expense and calling you a noob, but in my experience the community at Ubuntuforums was very helpful and considerate, and while I got a bit of RTFM and was called a noob at some forums like Gentoo(I played around quite a bit with various distros before settling with Kubuntu) I never encountered that at Ubuntuforums. The community is IMHO one of the best *features* of Ubuntu.
Moving from Windows to Linux can seem pretty challenging if you've been using Windows very long(I've used Windows since Win95>98SE>2K>XP>Vista>XP over the past 12 years, and I consider myself pretty competent at fixing most issues with Windows). But it's not that hard, and for me it was totally worth it. The only investment I put in was time- took me around a month to get used to Kubuntu, but now I find it far easier to use than Windows. As for the arguments about the CLI, I have not yet come across a situation where I've *had* to use it, in most cases I used it because it was easier to use the Command Line than the Graphical mode. I've used cmd.exe in Windows too for certain tasks, usually network troubleshooting, so it wasn't that big a deal for me, but I do find that the excellent community support makes learning the CLI in Ubuntu much easier.
All said and done, I found Ubuntu to be the best OS I've ever used. - thecheatah, on 03/19/2008, -2/+9I have always liked kde over gnome and thought that it was the more 'serious' one. This was mostly because of kde's modular design. Konquror is amazing at what it does and I havn't thought of anything I would wish it could do which it couldn't.
I guess its your opinion of how you judge things to be "serious". I judge them by the way they work, you judged them by its name. (if not, then care to explain?) - Wonderama, on 03/19/2008, -0/+7Hebrew Nationals are like the open source of the hot dog world. The specs are published, readily available, and at 5000 yrs old, it's a relatively stable environment.
- blizzok, on 03/19/2008, -0/+7I got my start with Mepis way back when, when ubuntu was still in some of it's first release cycles. I moved to Ubuntu after hearing a bunch about it, but i was experimenting with a bunch of other distros as well. A friend of mine introduced me to Gentoo, and it became all i used for the longest time. I use Ubuntu on my main desktop now, and Gentoo on my servers, laptops, and my companion box (another monitor + synergy). Ubuntu usually "just works", but when it doesn't it can be a serious hassle. Gentoo, on the other hand, is a pain to set up but works like clockwork after everything is compiled.
I've gotten past thinking about distros and OSes as being better or worse, and i just look objectivly at what I have at my disposal. I dual boot with XP SP3 on my main box, and I carry a MacBook around. Learn to use every tool available for whatever job is best. - inactive, on 03/19/2008, -1/+8Nathans is the best. You are all n00bs. Whats next? Pepsi better then Coke?
- bootup, on 03/19/2008, -1/+7I think Ubuntu has done allot of things right. The main things they did right revolve around integration. If you need something like a codec, a flash plugin, etc it informs you of this and then proceeds to download it. You don't have to worry about viruses as the verified supported repository takes care of this. The additional unsupported packages are in repositories others are reasonably taking charge of and supporting. The other good thing is that packages also work easily enough. I have never seen a functional RPM distribution run this well. I have never seen a desktop DEB distribution so well integrated. The one thing Ubuntu lacks at the moment are commercial productivity applications and games. Linspire had a decent commercial software repository despite having allot to be desired with 5.0. Unfortunately they managed to screw it up (Disclaimer: I still use the latest Linspire & Freespire which is basically Kubuntu). I still don't understand what is so great with PCLinuxOS or Fedora that people use these distributions and recommend them. Not to put them down or anything I just don't get what people like about these two. I'm not a user of Slackware or Gentoo and yet I do understand what those distributions offer. They are right for a certain niche crowd. It is sort of like Redhat Enterprise edition is right for some companies in need of server operating systems.
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