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- inactive, on 10/12/2007, -3/+22 Very well written...A good look at Linux for those planning to leave another OS.
- cypresso, on 10/12/2007, -4/+22Truthfully there are 4 main things that stop the majority of users from staying with Linux once they make the switch:
1) They don't want to invest the time into finding new programs and learn how to use them to substitute the old (i.e. - Bluefish for Dreamweaver, Gimp for Photoshop, etc...)
2) Lack of support for the newest games
3) Wifi support.
4) Not enough codec/video support for their porn that was in WMV format. - inactive, on 10/12/2007, -2/+19Or when you don't want a mac in the first place.
- john2kx, on 10/12/2007, -0/+17Considering my options, I can't afford a Mac.. Not because I don't have enough money, but because I can't afford to throw it away like that.
- XVampireX, on 10/12/2007, -7/+19Linux - The Experience.
- cody50, on 10/12/2007, -3/+15I agree, very informative and well done.
- doolin, on 10/12/2007, -7/+18Then petition Linux support from whoever sold the NIC
- Phocion55, on 10/12/2007, -3/+13I'm actually sitting outside on my back deck WITH my Linux laptop. Done and done.
- insaneavocado, on 10/12/2007, -4/+12Unfortunately wifi cards aren't as well supported as other pieces of hardware as many manufacturers of hardware see no real reason to start an OSS project, or at least release the information that would allow people to make one; some chipsets are supported well, but not all.
And of course there was no problem installing it in windows; it's likely the manufacturer put out a driver specifically made for windows. Either way, I recommend giving ndiswrapper a try. It's easy to use and works well. - thesimplefix, on 10/12/2007, -10/+18Digg me down if you you like, but I don't think Linux on the desktop will hit the masses anytime soon. Don't get me wrong -- I use Ubuntu Linux as my primary desktop at home, and love it (I don't even dual boot with Windows anymore), but I don't think Linux is ready for the desktop. Things simply do not "just work!" I gave 2 fellow employees a copy of linux who were a little more technical than most in the office (They've formatted their systems, installed programs, uninstalled virus' etc....) -- I gave one a copy of Suse 10.1, and the other a copy of Ubuntu 6.6, but after 3 or 4 weeks they were back to Windows again. Why? They loved Linux at first -- they noticed it was faster, but they had issues with a couple of things that broke it for them, and I've experienced the same thing. 1. The ease to install new program that are not found in Yast2 or Synaptic. Sorry, but this is a pain. Ever try to get LimeWire installed on Ubuntu without using automatix or easyubuntu - installing Java is a pain!.....I like automatix, but personally think it's silly that Ubuntu users need it just to get a "functional desktop" -- Yast is the same way -- if I a package is made for yast then intalling software is a breeze. If it isn't good luck to you.
The second compaint I heard was that Linux on both systems wouldn't detect their Mp3 players -- neither of them were using an Ipod. One was using a 1GB iRiver, and the other had one of those new Samsungs. Honestly, even Ipod support isn't that great either.
The 3rd complaint I got about linxu was the online help. It wasn't that they couldn't find it simply by doing a google search, but that almost everything they found was "command line" -- Where they didn't understand what any of the commands did. They just had to take "some guys word" that these series of commands would do "x" for them. I know the arguments for command line over gui, but users at the end of the day want to understand what they're doing to their system. They understand "click here, click this, do this" not type these 3 commands and it should work!!!!
4th complaint is they had to seek online help for even simple things (especially in Ubuntu) -- things that they had simply taken for granted on Windows, but just wouldn't work on Linux. One of them wanted to update FireFox, and get Flash working -- it was a nightmere.
Sorry, I'm sad to say it but Linux isn't ready for desktop, and won't be until these things are addressed. - rbanffy, on 10/12/2007, -0/+7@metalhead3767
"Repositories are a pain. They take too long and usually you can't find what you're looking for."
You just don't know what you are talking about. So, you do think it's a better way to chase down the web site where you can download the installer, download it, run it (hoping you got step one right and this is not a spyware-equipped version) and then keeping yourself informed about updates of every program you installed this way?
And, most of the time, you can just do that. Firefox, Java and others can be installed exactly like this.
I will keep my package manager in the meantime. - Hitchhiker90, on 10/12/2007, -1/+6That was somewhat impressive. I read the article expecting it to be another linux fanaticism piece and how linux was going to save the world and have constant MS bashing. He really didn't bash MS at all. Good for you, now if every linux user could be like you and lay down how to convert to linux from another operating system without throwing in a holy war.
- r0Ot3d, on 10/12/2007, -1/+6Beautifully written and from a fellow zenwalker too :)
- inactive, on 10/12/2007, -0/+5"Linux people are always saying how easy it is to install Linux. I admit it is easy. But installing anything else is a pain in the ass."
Depends on which distro you get.
Linspire/Freespire have one click installs via Click N Run..
Mandriva Linux has Mandriva Kiosk Lite, an online service similar to Linspire's CNR application download service.
- anjinash, on 10/12/2007, -1/+5Sure you can run Photoshop through Wine or Crossover Office .. but that's PS7, call me when CS2 (and soon CS3) will run under my Ubuntu partition. Then there's the issue of getting a Wacom tablet to function properly, which can be a complete nightmare regardless if you're running PS or The Gimp. Sure, with some work you may be able to get Linux to see the tablet, and even get toe cursor to move in conjunction with the stylus ... but try getting the pressure sensativity working properly, and watch how choppily the cursor moves across the screen to unintended areas.
..and don't even get me started with the Gimp vs Photoshop debate. Gimp is a nice piece of software and I like playing with it from time to time, but Photoshop it is not. If you're a graphic designer (or aspire to be one) The Gimp is simply not an option.
I adore Ubuntu and I support FOSS wholeheartedly. I've been doing my best to learn and understand Linux for several years now, and it HAS come a long way in terms of usability and compatiability. It DOES have a long way to go though, before John and Jane Average PC User will find it suitable for their needs. That doesn't mean Linux is bad, it's not. But it is not ready for the average user who may want to do more then surf the web and write documents.
I don't like it when some people (like the author of TFA in question) glosses over or ignores some issues. e.g. ATI has "great" support for Linux. Are you ***** me? If Linus was on fire, ATI wouldn't piss on him to put out the flames. Unless you're an uber-nerd, getting Compiz/XGL working on some ATI cards is akin to crawling naked over broken glass - it's a truly painful and traumatic experience. Same with wireless drivers, NDIS wrapper did not work on my relatively standard LinkSys wi-fi card.
I know I'll get dugg down, so be it... I'm not trolling and I love Linux. Let's just stop deluding ourselves that Linux is ready for the masses, and let's stop trying to convert everybody despite the fact that Linux may not fit the needs of many people. - zerblat, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3Linux isn't the command line either -- that's your shell (probably Bash). Linux is just the kernel.
- sabelsen, on 10/12/2007, -2/+5This is really a matter of learning vs. installing programs. If you'd like to understand what shell commands mean, then you should google or man them, not whine to your fellow man. Furthermore, providing help using shell commands is much easier than navigating an end user through the GUI, especially through different desktop managers. Also, note that shell commands are in most cases the same across different distributions. The deal is different with Windows where everything more or less stays the same.
"The ease to install new program that are not found in Yast2 or Synaptic." This is a problem and I completely agree with you. A normal user shouldn't need to compile, build and play around with build-essentials. Again, this problem lies with developers. Providing the source means end users can install and tailor the installation to their needs. Great, yes. The installation procedure is 'simple' (./configure, make and make install) once you know it, but when you encounter dependencies you start getting bored, and I understand that. You can either go to your repository manager or google the missed library. If your missed library is a source, well, you have to compile and build that as well, and you may encounter what we call 'dependency hell'. So, there are both pros and cons with source packages, and it is probably likely for it to stay this way for a long time to be. However, popular apps will be provided by repository managers and more easy-to-install packages on the distributor's homepage.
In any case, speaking for Ubuntu, you have automatix, easyubuntu, ubuntuguide.org and ubuntuforums.org. Those four apps/sites can help you understand and install most of the applications you will ever need along with all supported drivers. If you don't understand the shell command, that's your problem but you DO have the chance to do something about it. If you migrated to Linux NOT for learning anything new, you can stay in whatever OS you came from. - Xilon, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2For a change I would like to see a "mock" guide on converting from Linux to windows and just see how many things people would miss from Linux. The most obvious would be "I want to install a new application, but I fail to see where the package manager is.", or something about multiple desktops etc etc.
I like this guide because it does have a similar attitude as the idea aforementioned. It is very well written and informative but it especially highlights the upsides of Linux and where windows fails.
Definitely dugg. :) - inactive, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2Lame, we don't need another "my USB video card doesn't work in Linux" article. Linux wasn't made to be an easy-to-use affordable desktop. If you don't like how it works, submit a patch, otherwise stick to an OS that limits your ability to modify it to your specific application but doesn't require much work to play video games on. Just keep buying those video cards...
- Xilon, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1>1. The ease to install new program that are not found in Yast2 or Synaptic. Sorry, but this is a pain. Ever try to get LimeWire installed on Ubuntu without using automatix or easyubuntu - installing Java is a pain!.....
From what I can remember Java has been in the Ubuntu repos for like 3 months now... no idea about the rpms, Yast sucks.
>I like automatix, but personally think it's silly that Ubuntu users need it just to get a "functional desktop" -- Yast is the same way -- if I a package is made for yast then intalling software is a breeze. If it isn't good luck to you.
I have never actually used Automatix, and I came from Windows, being a total linux n00b, and got everything setup in less time then I would have even installed Windows.
Not really... I mean sure you have to resolve dependancies yourself (if you have to compile... you can usually get the binaries), which isn't always too hard since the configure script tells you whats missing. I compile a lot of stuff myself because there is a small lack of amd64 binaries (I'm talking about software that isn't in the repos of course).
>They understand "click here, click this, do this" not type these 3 commands and it should work!!!!
I disagree. I think if a n00b tries to do something to the core system, they probably won't understand what they are doing through a GUI anyway. It's more likely that they will, but I doubt it.
>4th complaint is they had to seek online help for even simple things (especially in Ubuntu) -- things that they had simply taken for granted on Windows, but just wouldn't work on Linux. One of them wanted to update FireFox, and get Flash working -- it was a nightmere.
Flash is a nightmare, I totally agree (though I hate flash in general and never install it), but that's Adobe's problem and they are fixing it. Firefox gets updated automatically from the repositories... I don't get what you're on about. If you want a beta or something then compile it yourself or find a precompiled binary, it's not hard.
>Sorry, I'm sad to say it but Linux isn't ready for desktop, and won't be until these things are addressed.
Speak for yourself, I love linux, I'm not going back to Windows. I can do everything I did on windows and more (minus Photoshop of course :(, thank god I have a mac) - TokenUser, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1Good point ... and it brings us to the real question. Who uses Linux anyway?
Its a bash/cshell/korn shell running with a KDe/Gnome/etc desktop manager on top of a kernel. When people are talking about using Linux, what are they really talking about??
So, how does this compare to Windows again? - subgeniusd, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1Markets gravitate toward perceived value. If Linux was as easy as the zealots claim the user rate would be.....??......90% already.
I love and use Xandros all the time (like right now) but I am willing to tweak and tune and search for solutions. Yes even Xandros is not up to full XP functionality. Most users consider the OS like a farmer views a tractor. Does the damn thing start and work or not. Don't tell me how easy it is to "adjust the carburetor and modify the suspension". If the tool does not just do what the user wants they will not use it.
Markets gravitate toward perceived value. If you don't "get" that then TA-DA...you are by definition a genetically encoded GEEK. - nixdoctor, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1Very well-writen article. I'm particularly impressed at the details, yet in a language so simple! I wish I had that much time! :)
- mindtrick, on 10/12/2007, -1/+2"Use" operating systems, don't worship them.
- XVampireX, on 10/12/2007, -9/+10Understand that GIMP is not Photoshop and not TRYING to be Photoshop.
And just because you Don't want to use an alternative doesn't make the alternative any worse than the one you're using. Just ignorance from your side.
Regarding games, Who's making the games? The linux developers? beeep.... wrong! The game developers! Game developers don't see market, because of their ignorance, they think "First users should come to linux and then we'll consider porting the games" but what they don't understand is that it should be the other way around. By the way, game companies like Linux Game Publishing are doing their best to port games, but you know what? They have to pay the Game developers money (INSANE amounts of money) to be able to port the games, that means that they HATE linux and are greedy as *****.
Again, wifi support, linux developers are trying to do their best to be able to develop drivers for wifi, but that is still highly dependant on the wifi developers, because of that, there may be lesser support for wifi.
Not enough support for codecs? Are you kidding? I can play any + more formats than windows can and that includes WMV format. - Geers, on 10/12/2007, -4/+5I agree, even with it's simplicity it is still a bit too advanced for the average computer user.
- dicknuts, on 10/12/2007, -1/+1I have the same problem with this article that I've had with every other 'switching to linux' piece I've read - the author is out of touch with his target audience. It's always the same - first, they start by putting you to sleep with the history/philosophy of Unux & the GPL. I might get interested in that later on, but right now I just want to learn how to use it. At this point I don't even know if I like the damn OS yet. You guys have to learn to tone-down the evangelism.
And while they do acknowledge that most Linux newbies are typically somewhat advanced Windows users, they fail to keep in mind that they are talking to someone that is ONLY familiar with how things are done in Windows. "Mount" my cdrom? "Unpack" files? I want to know how things have changed from: 'C:/Program Files/$program' etc. And how to properly install something that I don't have an RPM for. - Kaffeefilter, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0Very good article, despite some rather disturbing inaccuracies, its finally a clear and relatively succinct outline for winblows users.
- tipsqueal, on 10/12/2007, -2/+2Very well written, good article overall. I'm going to have my mom read this, as I'm trying to get my parents to convert over to Linux, and she is very skeptical. If you're looking into converting to Linux this article can and most likely will answer a lot of questions for you.
- jousting, on 10/12/2007, -1/+1LAoE is an audio editor that says you can edit the frequency domain (GPL for Linux + Win)
http://www.oli4.ch/laoe/documentation.html - yharrow, on 10/12/2007, -1/+1I like this article because I believe that the author has the optimal approach for introducing Linux to the average windows user albeit after the the benefits of linux over windows have already been elabortated upon. What follows, is a list of pointers that I have derived from both this article and my own line of thinking. It is of course most important to explain to a user why it is beneficial for him to switch to linux, but once the user has agreed to try linux, I feel it is important to do the following:
1. Explain that Linux is structurally different from windows and do not attempt to introduce Linux as a free-ware version of windows. 2. Have the user understand that there is a learning curve to Linux but introduce this in such a way that the user does not fear the learning curve but rather views it as a key to unlocking the great benefits of Linux. 3.Provide the user with as many crutches/rafts as possible (i.e. KDE, wine, Cedega, ndiswrapper, Automatix, Ubuntu, CNR, Linspire) . If a user is persuaded to simply jump into a sea of learning, the user may begin to drown and end up furiously paddling back to shore (whatever OS he came from) with both hands. 4. Some users are not able to easily comprehend the philosophy and rationale behind community support. Take the time to explain to the user how Linux communities function, and make an effort to show the user the beauty and systematic coordination found within a community environment.
Lastly and most importantly, remember that it may be "boring to teach yourself another operating system" and that it "is entirely a matter of personal motivation.".
This means that one should realize that unless he/she makes an effort to transform the learning process into an exciting experience, it is possible for the user/student to become disinterested/dis-enthralled. Which will almost always cause the user to opt out, and return to the platform from which he/she came, if only because of its perceived ease of use. - vinbob, on 10/12/2007, -2/+2@metalhead
"..and everyone ~ need to get together and create a standard for a self extracting executable that will put all the programs in the right places and have them appear in the menus."
Not heard of DEB, RPM or Autopackage files then? - JQP123, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0"Markets gravitate toward perceived value. If you don't "get" that then TA-DA...you are by definition a genetically encoded GEEK."
Not only do many geeks not "get that" but they take pride in the extra effort needed to compensate for the lack of usability and functionality. It's not a shortcoming, it's a feature. They tend to refer to it as "skill". - ech0, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0I believe its under Effects > Equalization
- warbird, on 10/12/2007, -1/+1ech0: Audacity doesn't do what I need. Atleast I haven't found a way (try editing out a dog barking over the background noise of a city. If you can do that with audacity, please tell me how, because thats the type of functionality I need)
jousting: Thanks, I will check it out! - yharrow, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0
"if i could download hardware my computer would be the *****"
Whoa! you mean to say that if you could download solid mass over the Internet, the first thing you would download is are bits of metal and silicon. I'd much rather download something more entertaining, like a three ring circus, or a case of Corona, How about a new car. The possibilities are endless... ;) - sabelsen, on 10/12/2007, -2/+2One thing, the above comments were made with regards to your hi-tech people switching back to Windows after too much Linux-resistance. However, I'm not sure whether Linux is ready for my parents. If I set it up a Linux box for them, they're all good to go, but not if they need to install apps themselves. Not that they know how to do that in Windows anyway.
- JQP123, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0"This can sometimes be confusing, sometimes frustrating."
Just an idea but if you really want to welcome Windows users, how about making it less frustrating and confusing? But then, it wouldn't be Linux would it? - cfuttrup, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0Great to see all the comments. Some are positive, some negative. To the ones that concern why I write this or that, the article had a touch of subtleness, respect, but also (maybe less obvious) a filtering effect. It divides people into two groups, those who care to make an effort (they are encouraged) and those who don't (they most likely will be discouraged).
It is best for Linux if you don't push the system on all people - but only those who are willing to work it out - because - it does require an effort to change to Linux, we cannot get around that.
You could even say that IF changing did not require anything, then there's no reason to change in the first place (because the systems would be alike). - JQP123, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0"You could even say that IF changing did not require anything, then there's no reason to change in the first place (because the systems would be alike)."
You could say that but you would be wrong. Even if Linux were functionally identical to Windows, it could still offer practical advantages --- lower cost or better security for example. As it stands, the advantages are offset by the cost (and pain) of switching - ech0, on 10/12/2007, -2/+1yes but there are many many many other applications that are not available on linux. that is one of the greatest issues with me and linux. i love my ubuntu install but until i can get all my software supported (photoshop, illustrator, indesign, flash, reason, fruityloops, etc, etc) on linux im sticking to windows. and i also dont care much for emulation, real vendor support is where it should be, these emulations are usually buggy... i wouldnt want my work to crash in the middle of an important project.
- kuratkull, on 10/12/2007, -2/+1@thesimplefix
"but that almost everything they found was "command line" -- Where they didn't understand what any of the commands did."
# man [insert your command here] - ech0, on 10/12/2007, -2/+1have you tried audacity?
http://audacity.sourceforge.net/ - warbird, on 10/12/2007, -3/+2Only thing I haven't found for linux that still keeps me on windows is a good sound editor that can edit in the frequency domain like adobe audition. If someone knows one, there will be one more fulltime linux user here :)
- DrStephanHeimer, on 10/12/2007, -4/+3Easily one of the best introduction to Linux for windows users I've ever read.
- Phocion55, on 10/12/2007, -4/+3Try using it with ndiswrapper.
- psilanthropist, on 10/12/2007, -4/+2u can run photoshop on linux using wine. there's barely any performance loss.
ive never heard of this Suze distro, but if ur new u wanna try either ubuntu or PCLinuxOS or OpenSuSE. googel them and read up opn them adn then make the switch. - anthonyberet, on 10/12/2007, -2/+0Is this a specimen of how *not* to write a migration guide?
It starts of by saying it will be difficult, without mentioning the advantages of Linux, then it jumps into talking about 'mounting files in the root directory', which 'of course' is done by the installation.....I stopped reading it at that point and I already have about 5 versions of Linux which I need an excuse to try out! - Phocion55, on 10/12/2007, -4/+1@ilyag:
You are the stereotypical Mac fanboy douchebag that I see sitting outside of a Starbucks drinking a soy milk frapalapachino on their Mac laptops. I can't stand you people and this is exactly why. - TokenUser, on 10/12/2007, -4/+1"Welcoming MS Windows users to Linux"
Huh?? I would drop a graphical interface for a Command Line??
Linux is not the GUI.
Welcoming MS DOS users to Linux I can accept.
Welcoming MS Windows users to KDE, Gnome, etc, I can also accept.
BUT - People dont use Linux. They use a distro with one of a dozen desktop manager variants, configured in hundreds of different ways, and bundled in hundreds of different configurations (resulting in several hundred Linux distros - none of which are quite the same).
KDE, Gnome, etc are all easy enough to use and learn (any Windows users could do it - hell, even a couple of Mac user could even d it ;) - but each of them have their own subtlties that can make the transition from Windows to a Linux based environment a problem. -
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