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210 Comments
- DracoFlameus, on 07/19/2008, -6/+84Yes, when it is about Linux - especially Ubuntu - I really hope that is is the OS of the future.
I believe it's a relief for everybody who experience problems with Windows... but don't be fooled, there are many who say that Windows - especially XP - is running perfectly stable, and so is mine. But I assume there are many beginners who really mess up with Windows, which can't be done so easily with Linux. On the other hand there are the experts who love Linux because they can do things with it which are not necessary for users like me - experienced but not experts.
When I use Ubuntu on my other partition, it is true that you usually don't have the problems you have with windows, but you usually experience other kind of problems, simply because it is another OS. The moment you want to make more complicated things... maybe installing/configuring a driver which is not supported (audio and graphics of my notebook usually make problems) or something that is not (yet) in the repositories (e.g. important update of TOR), you have to spend hours - and I mean literally hours - until everything works. That might be not understandable by some, but as I said Im not an expert... I hate using the console but I do it whenever I must, but I also have to google for every - and I mean every - problem that arises out of that use. Some forum postings tell you that something should work and then you suddenly get a problem which is not mentioned :/
I'm far away from being a windows fanboy, otherwise I wouldn't try Ubuntu, but I'm also no Linux fanboy. As I said before I really hope Ubuntu will be a - if not the - OS of the future, but I think there is still a way to go until its breakthrough. Which will be soon I hope :) - PaulRay, on 07/19/2008, -2/+51Is this why I feel compelled to install new, cool looking effects and toys that are usually totally unstable alphas and force me to screw around with the command line for hours fixing them?
I swear, ubuntu is so stable and easy, I honestly do get bored at time and seem to feel some perverse need to bork my system somehow just so I can fix it.
But then again, a boing computer that "Just Works" is a good problem to have. - repjackson, on 07/19/2008, -2/+35how can you compile gentoo but not get ubuntu to work for you?
- 0xception, on 07/19/2008, -0/+29Not to suggest you dont have a valid complaint... but i can tell you as someone who's worked in tech support, and a developer of tools based for GNU/Linux at my place of work that
"hate me if you will but anytime someone asks for help with linux the answer is most often in the form of console commands"
is often times the fastest, easiest way to fix a problem. Where as if you were to explain how to fix it via the GUI you have problems because each OS and even each installation of the OS can have vastly different GUI layouts. For example, if you were to try and explain how to stop/start a service via the GUI is different in Ubuntu then it is in Fedora, not to mention if someone is using KDE vs Gnome or even one of the more obscure window managers. or hell even if they just decided to move their panels around could make things more complicated... now compare that to 1 or 2 command lines? well now that just seems a hell of a lot more simple. And yea i know it can be "scary" to some users to see nothing but text. but if you dont explain to them what it is they are doing and just call the terminal the "support console" or something then i dont see why that's a problem.
You'd be suprized how simple it can be, specially if you have the ability to tell the user to just copy/paste the commands into the console/terminal. Even windows (XP, not sure about vista) can't escape the console entirely, have you tried to ping anything in windows? or flushed your DNS cache? - krnldmp, on 07/19/2008, -0/+27Operating systems were exciting in 1985. Now its just something that has to work.
- peestandingup, on 07/19/2008, -7/+33Is this guy actually complaining that Ubuntu TOO easy?? I mean seriously, maybe in the eyes of a Linux nerd it is, but there lies the major problem with the Linux community. They see things too much through the Linux nerd's eyes & not the general, computer illiterate public at large.
Why don't you ask a non-Linux, basic Joe Schmo user who has been using Windows or OSX if they think Ubuntu is too easy. I bet you'll get a different answer.
Now digg me down like I know you Nazis will. - haterofps3, on 07/19/2008, -13/+35Ubuntu will be my main OS only after
-Hardware Manufactures get behind Linux
-Major Developers (game and business) back linux
-The Linux Community stops hiding behind the console.
-hate me if you will but anytime someone asks for help with linux the answer is most often in the form of console
commands.
Microsoft will continue to supply me with an OS simply because of the sway they hold over the market. Linux is not better it is simply different.
If a Linux distro becomes the future OS odds are good that there will be people denouncing it and poking holes in it left right and center. The minority will always hate the majority and the linux minority really doesn't seem to like the Windows majority. - inactive, on 07/19/2008, -0/+20 except in Ubuntu, all you need is one simple meta install. Ubuntu-Restricted-Extras. That covers 99% of the issues.
- Dylson, on 07/19/2008, -5/+22No. It isn't worth noticing because only geeks use linux for every day use. I myself am a geek, and I am proud of it. Don't even attempt to argue the server argument. I already know.
- jasonalangraves, on 07/19/2008, -2/+15Dugg for the story and the first 3 comments.
DracoFlameus for putting into words exactly how it is. PaulRay for making me remember how fun it was to configure my Commodore, then later Amiga, and eventually DOS and Windows 3.0 to work, and being able to do it again with Ubuntu, and finally, Kingoftherings for tossing Gentoo into the fray! - waydee, on 07/19/2008, -1/+14Paragraphs!
- diggdiggdug, on 07/19/2008, -4/+16Just another step in the path toward having a distro that appeals to the masses.
An awesome step in the right direction.
Lets hope it bring relief to those who are tired of M$ BS like Windows Genuine Advantage and forced reboots after an automatic updates, and countless other windows hassles.
Linux provides the opportunity to dial in every detail and feature you could ever want to customize. Unlike windows.
Once people realize that they will never have to reboot because some application locks up, they will never go back to Windows. Yes that is correct, in linux you have the ability to kill processes the first time and not after repeated tries like you must do when using the windows taskmanager. Sometimes you just can't kill it in windows.
In linux try the following
'ps -ef' find the process number and 'kill -9 pid'
or
'pidof process' 'kill -9 processid' - PoopOnPaul, on 07/19/2008, -5/+16The average user should NEVER have to use the Terminal. Until that happens, Ubuntu won't be anywhere near a major competitor to Windows.
Just sayin - Mohdoo, on 07/19/2008, -0/+11As soon as Ubuntu is somehow able to run business applications (my mom has lots of software for her mortgage stuff), it will at least be possible. My mom has wanted to ditch windows and try Ubuntu, but she simply can't if her business software doesn't work.
- smotpoker, on 07/19/2008, -2/+13"The Linux Community stops hiding behind the console"
Console is typically the most versatile means of administration, period. Bitch about it all you want, but without the console as a means of helping to refine/standardize various functionality, Linux becomes hindered nearly to the same point as Windows. It loses much of it's versatility and ease of use. Everyone is forced to use the same Graphic interfaces and/or graphic utilities and learn how to customize it themselves and install them from scratch.
Linux's power lies in versatility and portability. Console offers portable and versatile administration/configuration ability without having to waste time learning what gui a given distribution or person is using. Removing or ignoring console requires not only requires losing much of that power and versatility but also requires more distros to more closely mimic each other rather than provide platforms geared to specific tasks or types of users.
Having to copy/paste something to a terminal every once in a while is a lot more practical than having to frequently create/edit docs for multiple gui interfaces or lose most of those interfaces altogether. - inactive, on 07/19/2008, -0/+10Um, Linux lock up too, as in you can't bring up anything to kill and you have to do a hard reboot. And killing a process doesn't always work, i've had to reboot to kill some wine processes that wouldn't die.
- repjackson, on 07/19/2008, -1/+10yes, because its gpl, i want to be able to open up any electronic device and edit it just like my car
- CrushThemTorg, on 07/19/2008, -0/+9Linux is easy now? ***** that. I'm going back to BeOS
- int19h, on 07/19/2008, -0/+9All problems with the flashplugin is Adobe's fault. Complain to them.
- projectmecca, on 07/19/2008, -0/+9I dual-boot Ubuntu and Mac, and frankly Mac is still a lot simpler even though Ubuntu is better in my opinion.
Ubuntu strives and advertises itself as a product that has everything the average user would ever need, but it's installation and configuration still requires knowledge above the average user. Ubuntu is still complicated in terms of newbie usage. It still has a long way to go, and I am really hoping to see the day where Ubuntu becomes simple enough where I can install it on my Grandma's computer so she wont have to worry about viruses and techie things windows has to worry about.
For all the techies that say Ubuntu is too boring, there are still other distros out there that are are still geeky fun to use. So I don't think its bad.
Linux provides a platform to be both the easiest to use and complicated to use. Its still striving to be the easiest, but I see it coming soon. - errorunknown, on 07/19/2008, -3/+12THIS ARTICLE IS SO BORING IT'S NOT WORTH NOTICING
- BrokenCircle, on 07/19/2008, -2/+100xception says in reference to Linux:
"via the GUI you have problems because each OS and even each installation of the OS can have vastly different GUI layouts"
This is a problem unique to Linux as Windows 95+ and Mac OS/X and have essentially stayed the same their inceptions. - jaxter2010, on 06/17/2009, -6/+14All these articles about linux being so plug and play...
Am I the only one who tried linux whom it took hours to get basic features such as flash in firefox, and embedded videos to play? - marx2k, on 07/19/2008, -0/+8salomejones: so hardware vendors have more incentive to support my favorite OS
- Kingoftherings, on 07/19/2008, -1/+9The average user should NEVER have to edit the Registry. Until that happens, Windows won't be anywhere near a major competitor to Linux.
Just sayin - MuffinFlavored, on 07/19/2008, -3/+11What kind of article is this?
That is like saying Windows Vista is fun and wonderful because it takes more effort to setup and maintain a solid ground on a daily basis.
Well, if that is what you call fun, sir, I want to be the most boring person alive. - Kingoftherings, on 07/19/2008, -0/+7I don't know honestly. I installed Ubuntu off the CD, then when I booted it up off the hard drive, the Ubuntu loading screen came up and the orange bar just kept bouncing back and forth and eventually it stopped. 7.10 worked just fine for me, so it must be some piece of software in Ubuntu that doesn't like my hardware.
- int19h, on 07/19/2008, -3/+10* Hardware manufactures will get behind Linux when there is enough users (We even seem to manage somewhat fine without them).
* Major developers will back Linux when there is enough users (Not that we really need them. Niche-applications can often be emulated or ran somehow).
* The console is useful for support, that's why many of the Linux communities use it. (And you love it the more you use it, as opposed to GUIs). - Kingoftherings, on 07/19/2008, -8/+15Thats why I use Gentoo. :)
Actually Ubuntu 8.04 didn't work for me at all. - kd7tck, on 07/19/2008, -5/+12The average Linux distro is pretty challenging to master, Ubuntu took Microsoft's approach to making OS's dumbed down for users and they ended up with what vista should have been.
- Zerophnx, on 07/19/2008, -2/+8"Meanwhile, after some rooting around, we found that Microsoft has some sort of add-on utility that allows users of pre-2007 Office versions to read files from Office 2007. But in the end it was easier to teach the candidate to use the option in Office 2007 to save his work in the old .doc format than to try to get the eight or 10 people with whom he routinely shares files to update their copies of Office."
I've done that more than a few times.
I was also quite bored after installing the Ubuntu 8 OS. After seeing I lost my decent ATI driver in the process I just lost interest and reverted. Hurray for working FF addons (v 2.x) and full 3D (proprietary drivers) - tkloppel, on 07/19/2008, -1/+7This is nonsense. I am by no means a linux "expert" but I have used it to perform some very involved tasks (i.e. set up Amanda backup servers, web servers, BIND, etc.) Even the latest version of Ubuntu is not without problems.
Linux is great -- because it's free! Not because it's better or more reliable than other solutions. - hamobu, on 07/19/2008, -1/+7Freedom is the only reason to run Linux OS-es. Nothing else!
Most people treat computers the way they do stoves. People use what they have. Nobody cares what brand stove you have in the kitchen. You do not buy a new stove unless the old one is broken.
However, when the principle is involved, people will go out of their way. People will switch operating systems, and will endure some inconvenience to preserve their computing freedom and stick it to the corporations. I know that is why I use Linux. - skootz85, on 07/19/2008, -0/+6Flash and codecs are not installed out-of-the-box because it is illegal for them to "ship" the product with them installed. Microsoft doesn't include them either for the same reason. Not draconian, just bureaucratic. Next time do "sudo apt-get install ubuntu-restricted-extras" in the terminal (or if you're using kubuntu: kubuntu-restricted-extras). This will install all the codecs you need.
In my experience, 9 out of 10 times wireless works right away but support is getting better as there is a lot of demand for better compatibility. - kidd3ckz, on 07/20/2008, -3/+9Console > GUI
- agentlame, on 07/19/2008, -0/+6This article is a great example of how easy Linux CAN be.
Is MY Linux system this stable and flawless? No. But I enjoy cutting-edge software, sometimes to the point that I (painfully) run alphas--I'm looking at you amarok.
I think the Digg community often forgets that--for the most part--they are "power users." Therein lies the problem: just HOW steep the learning curve is to fully understanding the internals and idiosyncrasies of even a simple distro.
When I first decided to switch to Linux full time, I spent months banging my head against the wall. Not because it was "hard to use" but more because I wanted to have the same command over the system that I had over Windows.
I'm not implying that full-time, true-to-life Linux users are better, or somehow smarter. Just more apt to punish them selfs.... for the better, of course.
But for a Grandmother, Firefox runs just fine on Ubuntu. - gradivus, on 07/19/2008, -8/+14So what about when I installed Ubuntu and it would lag so bad after a few hours I would have to restart? Or the fact the ATI video drivers(granted they were made by ati, but the windows ones work great) just stop working after the screen saver is activated and the only way to get them back was a reinstall of the drivers? Or what about the no sound in flash? Or the impossible task of installing a program (I dont know what a tar file is or how in the hell to install it with console). Meanwhile I just installed new XP on my new comp and it took a few hours to get all the programs and drivers on and it works like a bat out of hell( and I bet its as solid as my other comp which despite the acres of ***** programs and virus I have had over the years still works like a charm). Ubuntu is not ready from prime time, it might work if you are a programmer/nerd that has hours to waste compiling kernels and reprogramming the flaws. This is uber wankery of it being super stable and "just works" is *****. Its the equivalent of a European roadster(only without all the fun because you cant get games for it) from the 1960s while XP is like a truck. Bury away but ubuntu is crap from my experince (I used it for 3 months and tried to like it so much because I hate windows but comparing the 2 side-by-side ubuntu is crap).
- inactive, on 07/20/2008, -0/+5Bottom Line: There will need to be other incentives to use Linux for some people...
Learning how to copy and paste a block in to a terminal, though, seems fine with me - Though I'm actually getting pretty good at bash scripting, I never had a problem throwing down a few commands.
And The terminal is actually really good under linux while under windows... Well, CMD.EXE sucks. I hate it. With a passion. - 0xception, on 07/20/2008, -0/+5@Eric3k
Firstly i wasn't talking to you so you have no reason to be offended by my comments, they were intended only for haterofps3. Even then i did not mean for them be offensive, only a little harsh. All i was saying is that if a user is willing to understand the problems the linux community has (with hardware drivers, lack of commercial software, etc) and understand/accept that it's not the fault of the Linux community or a fault of the OS itself but rather the lack of a large enough user base then we've got no beef. Its perfectly reasonable to state "My hardware is not supported and the applications (photoshop, Autocad) dont work on linux so i'm unable to use it" however once that turns into "Linux sucks ass because it doesn't support my hardware and my applications dont work" then your no longer being reasonable and thus shouldn't expect a reasonable reply.
Again my comments were not about you, i quoted the "ignorant" and "lazy" for a reason... those are loose terms that really just refer to stubborn users who are unwilling to learn/change even a little, or accept small faults with any alternative while accepting major faults in what they are currently using, and would be unsatisfied with any product other then what they are used to... at that point there's really no point in trying to satisfy those users. for everyone else, patients, helpful bug reports, asking manufactures to support linux, asking for linux drivers... all that's needed is enough voices and the vast majority of the complaints people have with linux will go away. - repjackson, on 07/19/2008, -0/+5yes but a vast majority of computer users in the world want it to "just work." i love geeking out but i shouldnt have to in order to find a recipe or write and print out a paper. how should ubuntu "smarten" itself up?
- peestandingup, on 07/19/2008, -3/+8This isn't my quote, it was taken from an engadget user named Technodragon, but it says everything:
"Based on my experiences converting my Asus EEE (701) to eeexubuntu, and having a Ubuntu dual-booting on my desktop, I have my own 2 cents as far as the troubleshooting:
HOW TO FIX A PROBLEM IN WINDOWS
-google.com
-[insert problem]
-follow the steps using point-and-click GUI or the RARE time actually go into the registry
-possibly reboot
-ether break windows so badly you have to reinstall OR everything works fine now.
HOW TO FIX A PROBLEM IN LINUX
-discover some *basic* functionality issue has been overlooked by the uber133t command-line-obsessed FOSS zealots
-google.com
-[insert problem] + distro
-wade through pages of people complaining about the same usability issues as you, with a few smart-ass responses by Linux geeks arguing about what distro/fork is better, why Gnome or KDE sucks, and occasional suggestions for solutions that automatically involve the command line, even though there may be a way to do *exactly the same thing* through the GUI
-2-3 pages into the thread, maybe get pointed at some wiki that tells you how to do it through the command line
-follow link to the most poorly organized wiki article you've ever seen, that misses some "obvious" step that was obvious to all uber-linux-nerds, but leaves the rest of us computer users scratching our heads
-google the problem again *repeatedly*, piecing together a solution ON YOUR OWN from fragments of different threads
-Voila! 3 days of pure aggravation and hair-pulling later, it's either fixed or bricked
Don't get me wrong, once it's *working*, I love Linux. However, just getting things to that point can be one hell of an ordeal." - inactive, on 07/20/2008, -0/+5I'm getting laid because I use linux, how else did I save the money to take her for a holiday.
Linux + office = $0
Vista + Office = $1200.
$1200 = tickets x 2 to Alice Springs and 5 nights accommodation in a rented 4WD. - int19h, on 07/19/2008, -0/+5We need Pornbuntu. Bread and circus for the people.
- jasmus, on 07/19/2008, -0/+4Until they go and buy $100 worth of windows software and complain they can't get it installed.
- bdbr, on 07/19/2008, -1/+5Funny, I haven't had to reboot XP because an application locked up since...well, I can't remember when. I can remember when I had to reboot a Linux system - two days ago. A script that ran fine from the command line consumed all the memory in about two minutes when run from cron.
As someone mentioned earlier, its just DIFFERENT problems. - jasmus, on 07/19/2008, -0/+4You're right. I dugg you up, even though I use Ubuntu regularly, along with both windows and OS X. I don't think it's a bad thing having a rock solid CLI, but it should be optional for enw users and basic tasks.
- 0xception, on 07/20/2008, -2/+6"You may think me a fool but the reality is there are more of me than there are of you!"
wont argue w/ you there buddy. by the way... i dont think most linux users WANT to have YOU as a USER (i like caps too)... they just want to have equal support/recognizability from hardware and software companies as their OS is JUST as good if not BETTER then the competition. And the only ways to achieve this goal is to actually get a larger market share or user base...
believe me if the linux community could satisfy these goals without the vast majority of "ignorant" or "lazy" users they would be happy as linux is a choice and not something that anyone is forcing on you (unlike the competition which is forced on you when you purchase new computers). However since they can't achieve most of these goals without them and these USERS you speak of seem to have expectations that FAR exceed that of what any other OS offers it seems like a catch 22.
Your stubborn ... we get it, that's fine. so sit down, shut up and play w/ your OS all you want, no one is forcing anything on you :). You refuse to accept the linux communities opinions why should they listen to yours? Not to be mean or anything, but you really have a double standard, and because of that your claims are not valid. A reality maybe but no one cares about your problems if you dont about theirs. - gradivus, on 07/20/2008, -1/+5Average user doesnt know what the registry is.
- regeya, on 07/20/2008, -0/+4gradivus, yeah, I wish people would stop scaring people away from Linux...if they use ubuntu or something similar, they won't know what the Terminal is for, and people like me can make a ton of money fixing easily fixable problems ;-)
C'mon, WIndows shops, admit it; you do a lot of business you shouldn't have to be doing because there are dumb users out there. - tribaal, on 07/20/2008, -1/+5Godwin's law.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_law -
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